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Dr. Drew

Ashley Madison Client List Revealed; A Mom`s Video Goes Viral After She Slams Black Lives Matter; A Mother`s Routine Trip To Her Child`s School Ends Up In A Scuffle With Police; Man Being Called A Hero For Keeping A Reckless Driver Off A Busy Ohio Interstate. Aired 9-10p ET.

Aired September 02, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:11] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, cheaters exposed. Sex lies out in the open for all to see. New details and names revealed in the

Ashley Madison hacking scandal. Plus, a mom`s video goes viral after she slams Black Lives Matter.

It all starts now with the "Top of the Feed." Stolen information about millions of people hoping to cheat on their partners has now been

revealed and there are some famous names on that list. Have a watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (VOICE-OVER): Among the names of 32 million wannabe cheaters, hackers posted online, one name stands out, Josh

Duggar. Two active accounts connected to Josh Duggar on the website AshleyMadison.com, a site that proudly helps married people cheat by

hooking them up with sex partners.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH DUGGAR, REALITY SHOW STAR: I, Joshua, take thee Anna to be my wedded wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE (voice-over): When Josh and his wife, Anna, took their vows on their reality show in 2008, viewers had no idea he had sexually assaulted

his sisters, a secret hidden by his own parents for years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH DUGGAR (audio re-enacted by Randi Kaye): I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have been

unfaithful to my wife. I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE (voice-over): He worked championing marriage while paying the Ashley Madison website to find a secret lover.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining me Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Vanessa Barnett, HipHollywood.com; Michael Catherwood, "Love Line," KABC Radio co-

host with myself, 790 AM here in Los Angeles; "Chain Reaction" host on GSN and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other

Lies Parents Tell." All right, a little survey. Josh Duggar, sex addict, abuse victim, what do you think?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Well, he admitted to being addicted to porn.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: He is a hypocrite, which he also admitted --

PINSKY: Admitted.

SCHACHER: Thank God.

PINSKY: But that what made him admit these things.

SCHACHER: I am waiting for him to apologize to the LGBT community, who he has been condemning all these years, saying that they are the ones

that are ruining the sanctity of marriage when he literally has ruined the sanctity of marriage within his own household.

(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Right. Mike.

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" KABC RADIO CO-HOST AND "CHAIN REACTION" HOST ON GSN: Yes. I agree with Sam completely. I mean, you

know people make mistakes. And, I am not here to judge Josh Duggar as a person, but it is just so hurtful because Sam and I were both here, you

know, six months ago or whenever it was, with the whole panel of like the religious right talking about how we misunderstand him and that we should

not talk about him that way, because he is such a kind and clean living fellow.

(CROSSTALKS)

PINSKY: Youthful indiscretion. Vanessa.

CATHERWOOD: They must now come back and kiss my wingtips.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: But, every little 14-year-old is going to touch his sister, of course.

CATHERWOOD: That is the best way --

VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: Oh my God!

CATHERWOOD: He just curious like, all 14-year-old boys are curious. He is very curious about boobs. I was the horniest boy ever --

BARNETT: Oh!

CATHERWOOD: Ever! That is ever lived, and never once did I think to myself, "You know, my sister has been looking good lately."

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Yes. And, what makes me angry is he allowed his sister to get up there and defend him.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: And, the family to continue in their denial. Here is my assessment of him back when we learned he was sexually abusing his sister

and other under aged girls. It says. Let us play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: This kid has a medical problem. His medical problem is putting many other people in danger. And, denial and lack of willingness

to look at this seriously and realistically has caused him to be able to hurt other people. We do not know how many. And, he deserves an assessment

even though you may want to vilify him, the fact is he may have something that is treatable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Hundred percent -- I stand by that 100 percent. Right? That is exactly what we are hearing once again, except, I sort of being

sympathetic to him. I rescind that. I am no longer sympathetic, because he had his chance. He had his chance. He allowed his sisters, the victims

--

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: -- to get up there and defend him and identify with him, that is so problematic for those young ladies.

BARNETT: But, I do not think that is what he sought out to do. I think that family is united --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: He did not seek to do it but he did it.

BARNETT: This is a very united family.

PINSKY: He had his opportunity to get help.

BARNETT: And, they believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in forgiveness. They believe in the bible, that you cannot just dismiss that

as if that is something small. They dedicated their entire life to God, a man that they cannot even see. So, that is big for them.

And, so if they can forgive him, if they want to come to the defense of their family, if they want to put up a united front, who are we to tell

them, "No, no, no. You cannot speak on his behalf."

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: No. That is BS!

PINSKY: What if -- what if the problem -- what if

BARNETT: You cannot control the way a victim responds.

PINSKY: I am sorry. I said before he put other people in harm`s way, now he has hurt lots of people. It is no longer OK. He has hurt lots of

people. And, what if the medical condition they were defending was a lymphoma, which is a completely treatable potential curable often

condition. And, they were like, "Oh, no, no. We are praying this one away." No. Eventually, you step in and go, "Hey! Stop it. You got to

take direction from it."

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Loni, do you agree or disagree with me?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "YOU`RE PERFECT AND OTHER LIES PARENTS TELL": No. I agree with you. I think what you are saying

is, look, it is OK for them to have their religion beliefs.

[21:05:03] PINSKY: Yes. Fine.

COOMBS: If they want to say, they are going to forgive them, et cetera, but while they were doing that, he was sitting there with this huge

second secret.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: This huge, you know --

PINSKY: He is a fraud, frankly.

COOMBS: Fake -- yes, a costume where he is wearing --

PINSKY: It is not worst, but more hypocritical.

COOMBS: Yes. And, he lets them go up there and say, he is this wonderful person. He knows that is a lie. There is no repenting at all of

that stuff going on for the adultery. And, he just sat there and let all of these religious people stand up there and say this is what we believe in

and this is what we are doing and everyone else should forgive him when he knew that he was not being honest.

BARNETT: That is the glory of Christianity.

SCHACHER: No.

BARNETT: It is only by God`s grace that there is forgiveness --

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: But, wait. Hold on.

PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Wait.

BARNETT: That there is --

SCHACHER: There is -- OK, you can forgive, but there is one thing to forgive. It is another thing to sweep it under the rug and not give the

justice that these poor victims deserve.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: Are we talking about the case of the victims or are we talking about his adultery here. We are all on to something completely

different now.

CATHERWOOD: Right, but with the adultery, Vanessa is right. Their spiritual beliefs and how they act within their home is really their

business.

PINSKY: Of course.

CATHERWOOD: But, I think that when not only Josh Duggar but the rest of the Duggar family travel to country acting as this kind of moral

authority, that really did open them up in a different way to then say, "Hey! Look, you know, this is really part of the family." --

BARNETT: I think that is confusion.

CATHERWOOD: Exactly.

BARNETT: I think that is the great part of this story, because for some reason people think that Christians walk around as if we are not

flawed human beings. We are very far. We are all born and to stand, and it is only God`s grace that we are forgiven. So, this is a great example

of his -- what can be his testimony. You cannot have a testimony without a test, and this is a huge test.

PINSKY: Loni.

COOMBS: Vanessa, I understand everything you are saying about that, but do not you think as being a Christian he should have stepped up at that

time whenever he look at them and say, "Look, I have this other issue, too, " but instead he said, "It is all behind me. I am doing everything right.

I am a good family man now when he --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: People lie every day.

CATHERWOOD: Yes, but --

BARNETT: This torments him.

PINSKY:

BARNETT: I am sure he lied every single day.

SCHACHER: The reason why people are so pissed off about Josh Duggar is because he is waving his finger at everybody else. Of course we all "F"

up, of course we all lie, of course, we are all flawed. I am flawed. We are flawed. But, it was because he was so quick to condemn everybody else,

that is why people are so pissed off now.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

BARNETT: But was he condemning or was he just preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as he sees it in the bible.

SCHACHER: Only God can judge thee. -- Only God can judge.

BARNETT: Did he judge or did he read a passage from the bible? Is he judging everyone?

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: I want to get to the audience, but -- yes, go ahead, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think the family of Josh should be in the same seat of him, because they are also backing him up and hiding

this big secret.

PINSKY: But they did not know about all of this business, I do not think.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think -- I am pretty sure they knew. And, me being a Latino, in this -- in my culture that is a big no-

no. That is something we do not hide in the family. You say something like that, "OK. Get out of here." You know, that is -- he is like a scum

bag, you know. You do not do that.

CATHERWOOD: I also as a Latino, are not you a little bit offended that they gave a television show to a family with 19 kids. You probably

have like ten uncles --

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was kind of -- you better give it to somebody that with 20 kids.

CATHERWOOD: Everyone in my family has 19 kids.

(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND LAUGHING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think -- actually, the Madison thing that happened is a good thing, because people that are married should

not even be going around their partner`s back with all of this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: I agree with you, but I want to read this one tweet on the way out here. If you guys could put it up there for me. Because it brings

the issue, it says -- I am going to read it for you.

Quote, "Performing an unethical hack" -- Michael, you brought this up on radio today. Wait, let me go start from the top, again, if you guys do

not mind. "Performing an unethical hack on an unethical website does not make it ethical."

SCHACHER: I agree.

PINSKY: Hackers with a heart of gold, why are not we more angry with the attackers? I am going to get into that. First, we are going to take a

quick break. Be right back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:08:48] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: This is a site that says, "We can make an affair possible." Hackers said that they hacked into the site. They

had the data and that they were going put it out there if Ashley Madison did not shut down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, they had it coming. These are cheaters. They deserve to be outed. They were doing something wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Personal information, e-mails, phone numbers, user names. Now you have a bunch of sites where all you have to

do is put in an e-mail address and you can find out if someone was on that list. This is a huge black eye for Ashley Madison, which really sold

itself on being 100 percent discreet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LUDWIG: Anything that anybody puts online can be made public, and so that is what is really scary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Ashley Madison is still up and running, probably not going to get a lot of business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And they may not be attracting new clients but millions of old ones are in danger of being exposed. I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Mike

and Loni. And, we just mentioned, I asked Mike, you know, why are not people really cluing in to the unethical hacking, the illegal hacking and -

-

CATHERWOOD: that is the point. Yes.

PINSKY: I mean it is sort of weirdly, moralistically satisfying these people, who were outed.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: But, thousands of millions of lives --

CATHERWOOD: If this was like your Amazon account, no -- there would no controversy here. We would be like, "We must catch these hackers. They

are going to bring us down."

The fact of the matter that, you know, Ashley Madison is devoted to cheating. Sure, a lot of us morally do not agree with that. It does not

change the fact. It is a legal business. It is a very legitimate business.

PINSKY: They did not break laws.

CATHERWOOD: And, they did not do anything wrong in the eyes of the law. And, the hackers, like aggressively, broke the law. And, we -- I

mean, I think reporting on and then promoting the idea that they are going to expose all these people who have accounts on Ashley Madison, you are an

accomplice to these hackers. That is all you are doing. You are promoting someone who broke the law and then really could only expose how unsafe we

are in anything we do on here.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Which is not a bad thing to be reminded of. Yes, sir

LAMAR TURNER, MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mike, initially, you say you were one of the horniest 14-year-olds.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)

BARNETT: Jesus!

TURNER: I beg to differ.

CATHERWOOD: OK.

BARNETT: Oh!

PINSKY: One of. One of. One of.

[21:15:00] BARNETT: Random facts.

(LAUGHING)

TURNER: My name is Lamar Turner.

PINSKY: Hello, Lamar.

TRUNER: I know two gentlemen, who are locally where I live at and they are part of like a cheating marriage group.

PINSKY: Are they swingers or they cheaters?

TURNER: No, they are cheating on their wives.

PINSKY: And, the wives do not know about it, do not sign of it.

TURNER: Wives do not know about it.

BARNETT: And they are your friends?

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

TURNER: Well, I know them. I grew up with them.

BARNETT: Ah.

PINSKY: OK, yes.

TURNER: I am college educated and I respect the sanctity of marriage. This is hurtful.

PINSKY: Yes.

TURNER: So, we talk to them -- well, I talk to them all the time, and they are like, "Oh, you know, should check it out." Well, first of all, I

am not married. Secondly, I would not do it.

PINSKY: Yes.

TURNER: I would do it. Why get married and then cheat?

PINSKY: Why get married -- why get married especially if you have kids. It is an attack on the person you say you love most in the world and

an attack on your kids. You are attacking, directly harming -- putting them in harm`s way.

What the hell is the matter with people? Well, I got someone on the phone. Her name is Marie. She found a partner for -- we are going to call

her Marie. She found a partner on Ashley Madison for extra marital affair.

CATHERWOOD: Call him Donnie.

PINSKY: Donnie and Marie, yes.

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

CATHERWOOD: What?

PINSKY: Marie, what motivated you to go on the site?

MARIE, HAD EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR ON ASHLEY MADISON SITE: Well, actually, I was planning on getting divorce anyway. And, I happened to

hear about Ashley Madison on one of the radio stations, so I checked it out. And, at the time, I was honestly looking to sort of friends with

benefits and it was the perfect site to go on.

PINSKY: And, as opposed to other dating sites because those --

MARIE: Well, of course, because the other dating sites had single men, who would want to attach themselves to you if they supposedly fell in

love with you, and that is definitely not what I was looking for.

BARNETT: I do not think it is hard to find a man who just want -- I do not think that is a difficult task.

CATHERWOODL Yes.

(LAUGHING)

MARIE: And, to tell you the truth, back then, because that was over six years ago, and I have since gone on Match.com and some of the other

sites, and there are just as many men married or with partners on those sites.

PINSKY: Wow. But, what about like Tinder, places like that?

MARIE: Of course, of course.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHEWOOD: I know from my experience --

MARIE: Yes. And, they will specify right in their profile.

CATHERWOOD: From my experience on Grinder, you know, I found that --

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

PINSKY: You are a grinder. Is it -- did not you feel guilty going on a site, which you knew the men were married. It was not like it was

possibly they were married. You knew for sure these were married men.

MARIE: No, because I was not out to destroy anyone`s family.

PINSKY: Yes, but --

MARIE: It was strictly for sex, and that is what most of these guys are for. They want to get laid.

CATHERWOOD: Mary or Marie, you said at the beginning of the interview that you were definitely planning on getting divorce. Why not just follow

through with it or be separated and then, you know, behave like a grown adult, do what you want to do?

(CROSSTALKS)

BARNETT: The big question is, where were you getting divorce? Did your man cheated on you?

MARIE: Because at the time -- well, fortunately, for me I have a very high sex drive and nothing was happening at home.

CATHERWOOD: No. No. My point being is then, if you were definitely planning on getting divorce, why not just separate and then bang whoever

you want and not have to go on Ashley Madison?

MARIE: Because it is just, you know, like what everyone else does, like living on the edge, something different. Everyone else do.

PINSKY: OK --

SCHACHER: I think my concern here is Marie, as you said earlier, just a few seconds ago, that you did not think it was destroying a family by

sleeping with a married man. That right there, that statement just kind of underscores everything in my book. Why do you not see it that way?

BARNETT: The disconnect.

SCHACHER: Yes.

MARIE: Because I was not going out to intentionally take that man away from his family. It was strictly sex.

PINSKY: But, you see, people have a weird sometimes thinking about this, Loni.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: That somehow it is just sex, "Oh, that is no big deal."

COOMBS: Well, yes.

PINSKY: For men, by the way, the way we are evolutionary wired, men, if a female spouse is having just sex -- that is the end of the game for

men.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: I should be often for women, the same thing.

COOMBS: Yes. And, you know, people assume it is all just the guys that, you know, who want to cheat. But the women are out there in the

numbers, too, at 40 percent. Then, you know, people who are cheating, they have a lot of different ways to rationalize it. You know, it is selfish

reasons. I do not think about the family, so they must not really be impacted by this.

PINSKY": Right.

COOMBS: It is two consenting adults. We both want to do it. So, they do not think about the little kids at home and what the other spouse

is going to feel.

PINSKY: They are compartmentalizing it.

SCHACHER: Or when you get caught, which people do more oftentimes than not.

BARNETT: Exactly.

PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Is anybody tempted to look -- there is a site now where you can look to see if your spouse`s email is there --

BARNETT: No.

SCHACHER: No. I do not even think to find it there. No.

PINSKY: I mean I think people should check if they have any question.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

BARNETT: No, you should trust the person you are with.

SCHACHER: I do not think for a second that my husband is on that.

PINSKY: No. I am not saying he is.

BARNETT: Absolutely not.

PINSKY: I mean just --

SCHACHER: Put your e-mail in there, no!

PINSKY: That is the point. If you have any question, put it in there.

COOMBS: I do think it is important, though, that people before they go, if they are going to check, they have to understand it is not

automatically they cheated. I mean they logged on to the website --

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: -- or somebody might have used their email. There is some fraudulent use of e-mails on there. And, some went on and never made

contact.

SCHACHER: That is like my dog ate my homework.

COOMBS: And, I think it is important for people to go on before they ruin their lives that they actually find out -- that is why a lot of people

are hiring private investigators to find out, exactly, what it means the e- mail is on there or the spouses are coming forward and saying -- I am just saying, before somebody goes on there and starts, you know, throwing the

clothes out the window, and finds --

(LAUGHING)

[21:20:07] SCHACHER: Yes.

COOMBS: Let us figure out what exactly happened.

SCHACHER: Right.

COOMBS: We do not need more marriages broken up.

PINSKY: I am going to put the -- they are telling me to hang on something. I want to talk about Jeff Ashton, who is the prosecutor -- the

prosecutor in the --

SCHACHER: Casey Anthony trial.

PINSKY: -- Casey Anthony. We actually interviewed him on the program. And, he is now the state attorney in Florida, and he had a case

on it.

CATHERWOOD: That is a job.

PINSKY: Yes. Well, take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ASHTON, STATE ATTORNEY FOR ORANGE AND OSCEOLA COUNTIES IN CENTRAL FLORIDA: While I indulged my curiosity about the site, it never went

beyond that. While no laws have been broken, these were incredibly stupid choices. Those choices have had absolutely no impact on the performance of

my official duties.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: You got the nerve of live crying now. You were not crying when you were trying to hook up with these women. And, everyone keep

saying, "Oh, I did not meet anyone in person." It is such BS. It is totally your dog ate your homework. I am so old for this.

(LAUGHING)

CATHERWOOD: You know, in my opinion -- you know, I am not trying to sell this guy out or anything, but if you get an account on Ashley Madison,

you have already cheated in my opinion.

SCHACHER: Yes.

COOMBS: Yes, absolutely.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

CATHERWOOD: If you are a married man and you expressed curiosity in Ashley Madison --

SCHACHER: You are looking.

CATHERWOOD: -- you have gone through far, you know.

SCHACHER: You are hunting.

PINSKY: Where else are you looking, too

COOMBS: Yes and I agree. If that is where you draw the line, that is where you draw the line. But, if you look at the numbers, there is

actually -- in 2014, I believe, there is like 9,000 people who went to the website but only 2,000 went further than that and paid -- because you

actually have to pay fees as you go along to actually make contact. So, you could look at those records. But, like you said, if it is a matter --

if they went on the website, that to you breaks your trust then that is --

SCHACHER: This is so sad.

PINSKY: It is sad.

SCHACHER: The only people that are happy are divorce attorneys. I am sure they are celebrating.

(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Listen, I did that and I did that --

SCHACHER: Right?

PINSKY: I am curious that divorce court documentary about the amount of money spent on divorce. Do not get married if you do not want to get

married, do not have to get married.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: But, do not have babies out of wedlock either, which is -- well, somehow, people feel like that is what the alternative is. Look,

take your time. Pick somebody you want to spend the rest of your life with, who you actually love, whom you would not treat somebody you love

like this.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

BARNETT: Yes.

PINSKY: You would not do that. So -- And you would not attack your kids who you also claim to love. Stop it, everybody. Be adults about

this. You make a sanctifying vow in front of God and everybody and then you just crap all over them. Really, is that the world we live in now?

All right, next up, a Facebook post about Black Lives Matter enrages the online community. We will see about it after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:26:33] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are driving down the street shooting tear gas where kids are.

(END VIDEO CLIP).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The crowds took to the streets Wednesday protesting the shooting death of an 18-year-old African-American male by

two white police officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Mansur Ball-Bey allegedly pointed a handgun at the officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Authorities in St. Louis now confirming to CNN, police shot a black teenager in the back killing him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There are people in the neighborhood who were saying, he did not have a gun. And, now, there is

those conflicting reports.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: I think I have to mention this, bro. There is a fact that a 9-year-old girl was killed in Ferguson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

YOUNG: And, people are wondering why there was no marching for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: She was just sitting on her bed doing her homework when her grandmother heard gunshots and ran downstairs but it

was too late. She said Jamyla died in her arms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Sad story. Of course everyone is aware of the police shooting of a black man prompted riots in St. Louis last week. Police say

he pointed a gun at them. His family`s attorney says, he was unarmed. A 9-year-old black girl was killed by a stray bullet in a drive-by shooting.

It then prompted Peggy Hubbard. Peggy Hubbard to post this on her Facebook page. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Last night, who do you think they protested for? The thugs, the criminals, because they are hollering police brutality. Are you (EXPLETIVE

WORD) kidding me? Police brutality? How about black brutality. You black people, my black people, you are the (EXPLETIVE WORD) most violent

(EXPLETIVE WORD) I have ever seen in my life.

A little girl is dead. You say Black Lives Matter. Her life matters. Her dreams matter. Her future matters. Her promises matter. It matters.

Yet you trifling (EXPLETIVE WORD) are out there tearing up the neighborhood I grew up in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Mike, and Loni. And, joining us Erica Williams Simon, Cultural Critics, editor at Upworthy.com and

contributor at "Time" Magazine. Erica, what about that commentary?

ERICA WILLIAMS SIMON, CULTURAL CRITIC/EDITOR AT UPWORTH.COM/CONTRIBUTOR AT "TIME" MAGAZINE: I mean it was painful to

watch.

PINSKY: Yes.

SIMON: And, I watched the entirety of it. And, it was, you know, a frustrated angry mother. She went on to talk about her own son being in

prison. And, you know, I had some sympathy for her in the beginning. But, the problem is her frustration and anger was entirely misdirected.

And, she went on to be very angry and frustrated at black people, at young black people who are out protesting police brutality and police

violence. The two things are completely unrelated. And, do not know about you, but I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

So, there is absolutely nothing stopping us from protesting and responding to an American culture of violence, right? There is nothing

innately or uniquely violent about African-Americans. The problem with violence in this country is an American ones.

BARNETT: Yes.

SIMON: And, there is nothing wrong with protesting that. At the same time responding to injustice in the community.

PINSKY: But, Crystal Wright has been on the show, Vanessa, many times and talked about the black on black violence and every time she gets sort

of like marginalized for bringing that up. Oh, yeah, yeah, but, but, but - -

BARNETT: No. It is not being marginalized. People like crystal like to bring up black-on-black crime when it benefits them, when they can use

it as a way to diminish or to say, "Oh, black people, you cannot care about this because you are killing each other." That is not the case.

If you look at the studies over the last 20 years, black-on-black crime, whatever that is, has actually declined and people always bring up,

"Why do not you care about black people killing other black people when they have not seen the dozens of organizations and rallies and community

protests, and the people that are on the grounds every single day, trying to combat violence altogether? So, that is bull "S." It is complete crap

to say that we care about one thing and we do not care about the other. We are not monolithic in that way. It is crap.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Loni.

COOMBS: Well, I agree with Vanessa. However, I think what this mother and I really connected to what she is saying, mother to mother. I

think what she was saying was, if you care about both, why were not people protesting over the little girl?

BARNETT: And, there were. There were over 200 people that were out in those streets for that baby girl.

COOMBS: But not compare to --

BARNETT: Because we live in a culture where if you do not see it in the media, it does not exist. You do not know the number of people that

rallied and spoke about this --

(CROSSTALK)

COOMBS: OK. So, why was not --

BARNETT: And, what I do not like about that video is she is lumping black people together.

SIMON: All black people.

BARNETT: And trifling black people and you blah, blah, blah. People killing people is a problem. It is not a black problem. It is not a white

problem. It is a problem across the board.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

And, once you start that division, that is not going to get us anywhere, and she is not on Black Lives Matter either because what people

tend to miss in the Black Lives Matter Movement is that we are not saying that people cannot be arrested, some of these people are not criminals.

What we are saying is that there needs to be due process. There needs to be accountability. There needs to be a halting on killing unarmed

people.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

SIMON: But also -- There actually is no such thing as black-on-black crime. That is what so fascinating to me and I think why people continue

to respond negatively to that phrase, because it does not exist. It is a myth, right?

Like if you actually look at the statistics, all violent crimes, the majority of violent crimes in this country statistically happen intra-

racially, right? Because you actually have to look at what inspires crime and the majority of them happen with people who know one another or in

enclosed proximity in community with one another.

So, this idea there is something uniquely pathological about black people and the way that they commit crimes that is different than the way

white people commit crimes. It is flat out, inaccurate and racist.

BARNETT: Thank you.

PINSKY: Loni.

COOMBS: But way back to specifically what Peggy said. I want to say something for her. Yes, at some point, she kind of went off and going on,

you know, against her own community or going after them. But she said, "Look, for me violence is violence. I am not going to put a color on it.

It is bad violence no matter who it is by and who it is against."

And, then she also said "I am just not going to jump on the bandwagon of all, you know, white people are bad. I want to look at it, if it is

violence, it is bad. And we need to teach our kids, you know, to stand up and obey the laws and listen to law enforcement." And, you know what?

That is good advice for every mother out there and you can do that --

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: She also -- in the video, she talked about having her own son locked up. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUBBARD: Let me tell you something. I got a kid locked up. Oh, yeah. I put him there. I turned his ass in. Yes, I did, because you know

what? I am a strong black woman. I am a black mother. I told my children if you [EXPLETIVE WORD] up, if you go to jail. I am not getting you out.

You will stay there. You will do the time. Do not drop the soap. That is what I told my son. Do not drop the soap.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: listen, she is right. If you have kids that are misbehaving, you tell them then it is on you.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

COOMBS: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: Yes. You discipline your kids. You do what you have to do as a parent and the only thing I ever agree with in that video is the

understanding that this little girl did have a dreams, did have a future, did have a life and her life very much matters.

But, I just think some of the things in the video went completely left and I think her message may have gotten lost in her anger, in her ability

to adequately express what the real issues are.

PINSKY: Sam.

SCHACHER: it is interesting because we all see it on social media. We see it on our Facebook posts or Twitter. If you post about something

that you are outraged about, all of a sudden you are bound to get one, two, three, four people that tell you, "Why are not you out there rage about

this or this or this?"

BARNETT: Right.

SCHACHER: As human beings, the beautiful thing about us is that we can be upset and compassionate and empathetic about a number of different

things. So, I think if Black Lives Matter is what you are outraged about, she should be outraged. If you are outraged about black on black crime, if

it does exist compared to what you said, she can be outraged about that, too. I do not think it should not be one or the other.

PINSKY: OK. We will keep this going. Later, a police officer subdues a mother who was dropping her child off at school. Back after

this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

[21:24:23] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUBBARD: You are hollering this Black Lives Matter (EXPLETIVE WORD). It do not matter. You are killing each other. What the (EXPLETIVE WORD)?

Black people do not care. Do you think the police are out here for fun? Do you think they are out here for games?

They are not going to tuck you in. They are not going to give you a cookie and sing you a lullaby and tuck you in. No, they are going to pop a

cap in your (EXPLETIVE WORD). You shoot at them, they are going to shoot at you. That is just a realism of it. If you try to kill them, their job

is to serve and protect not serve and die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That was from Peggy Hubbard`s Facebook page. She posted this in the wake of recent shootings in Missouri and the protests have followed.

I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Mike, Loni and Erica .

And, Erica, she is frustrated with Black Lives Matter it seems like, sort of a misplaced energy --

SIMON: Yes.

PINSKY: But you can understand what she is saying, right? It is like let us get our community straight. Let us each of us take care of our own

garden, so to speak.

SIMON: Well, I understand where her frustration comes from, right? Because anytime you see violent crime, there is a question as to why did

that happen and how can we stop it from happening. But, no, I do not understand the inclination to then blame the community that raised you,

that nurtured you, that you are from, I do not.

PINSKY: But, wait a minute, if there was a bunch of crime in our community and somebody from the outside came and said, you need to please -

- you just go, "No, we need to take care of our crap here. We need to straighten ourselves out."

BARNETT: Why do the assumption that black people are not straightening themselves.

PINSKY: No. I am not saying black people. I am saying we would be whoever, whatever community, fill in the blank, you would -- whether it is

a mixed race community or whatever it is, you would just say, "Hey, guys, we got to get this together."

[21:40:00] SCHACHER: But then do not diminish Black Lives Matter, which has been an awesome campaign thus far and really has rallied a lot of

people to speak up.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

BARNETT: And, then secondly, do not you from the outside tell me what I need to do on the inside, because you are not also looking at your

community saying what you need to say. So, it is coming from a place of almost like you guys are acting up and you guys need to do this. It is not

coming from a place of let us all collectively get together.

PINSKY: But, is not that what she is saying? Let us all get together.

BARNETT: No.

SIMON: No.

BARNETT: What she is saying is, "I am mad at black people and black people are trifling and you are killing each other." And, that is not what

is really happening.

And, she is also blaming the Black Lives Matter Movement for some of the rioting and some of the violence that is going on when everyone knows

if you really know what the Black Lives Matter Movement is, it is peaceful protest.

I have been a part of that. We thank the police for keeping us safe and being there in the upstanding police. We thank them. So, that is not

the same people.

PINSKY: Can we show this footage, the control room, that footage I have of previous -- yes, here. This includes Ms. Ali in this particular

post. Remember Ms. Ali? She was on our show numerous times. She was on a talk show and took questions from the audience. It caught my attention. I

want you to watch this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Statistics show us that 50 percent of black men are in prison. 30 percent of black men are on controlled

substances or uncontrolled types of drugs. We are 50 percent responsible for all the problems in our community.

We have never accepted responsibility for any of it. I am saying that the black man is 50 percent responsible and the black woman is 50 percent

responsible. And, the white people is 100 percent responsible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Does not this feel like it is the same rhetoric we were talking about today. That was early `90s.

SIMON: It is sad.

PINSKY: It was 25 years ago.

SIMON: The rhetoric is the same. And, to be totally honest with you, that is the rhetoric that the Black Lives Matter movement is fighting

against because when you hear those narratives over and over and over again, you think that police officers do not internalize that as well?

Do you think that the fear of black people that Peggy was expressing and expressing in her video has not permeated every other aspect of

society? It is not helpful. It is not productive. It is not actually rallying together.

PINSKY: But, the numbers. The numbers that, that woman was talking about -- the only thing different about her numbers were was that the

people -- The men that she was quoting on drugs are now in prison. So, they are all in prison, right? And, so, that is the same --

CATHERWOOD: In the kind of the modern technology age in social media and things like that. A lot of times, we see when someone`s argument or

their point is so filled with vitriol, and it is so bombastic, oftentimes it detracts from the actual point they are trying to make.

PINSKY: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: And, you know, that is one problem I think that this post had and this young lady had. And, Erica, she summed it up quite eloquently

is that Black Lives Matter and crimes within the black community. They cannot be mutually --

PINSKY: Right. That is right.

CATHERWOOD: They do not have to be mutually exclusive. You just have to acknowledge both.

PINSKY: Yes, sir, go head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, the U.S. Department of Justice put on this statistic. They say that from 1976 to 2011, there were roughly

280,000 African-Americans murdered and they say out of that 280,000, 240000 were murdered by other African-Americans. So, I disagree with the black-

on-black crime. Secondly, when I --

PINSKY: You disagree there is not black-on-black crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, I disagree for her to say that it does not exist.

PINSKY: That does not exist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Because, to me it does. It is in the numbers. Secondly, when I go to the store at night, if I am hungry or

you know, in Chinese store, I am more worried about African-American male or female harming me, hurting me, killing me, than any other race.

BARNETT: And, you do not think that is because of the perpetuation of that stereotype that she has seen in the media or that you have heard in

your community or that you hear on different platforms?

You do not think that, that notion has been ingrained in your head. Why do you have no rational fear of people that look just like you? Have

you ever been attacked? Have you ever been killed? Have you ever been hurt?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I actually have. I was going to a ride for my mom. And, I see the two guys. They are like plotting on. I

went out. One guy hit me in the jaw, went in my pocket and they ran. I am chasing these guys. I am 13 years old and I am running down 29th street

chasing these guys.

My uncle, he seen me running and I am pointing and he chased them, caught them, got my money back. And, I am like, "Let me fight them. Let

me fight them." He is like, "No, just let them go." I live with that.

SIMON: But did you live with that in a black community?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.

SIMON: OK. So, then it is likely that any crime committed against you in a black community will be by a black person. In the same regard, if

I live in a white community and I was a white person, it is statistically more likely that the crime against me would be perpetrated by a white

criminal. So, what I am saying is, not that black people do not occasionally harm other black people --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Occasionally?

SIMON: Not that they do not harm other black people but let me say this, white people harm other white people, too. So, when you label only

one thing you make it uniquely pathological and that is not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The statistic is not as prevalent.

SIMON: But 86 percent of white violent crimes happen with a white perpetrator. So, why do not you say white on white crimes.

CATHERWOOD: The numbers are really irrelevant when you analyze, we can all agree that violence and that committing crime is a universal

humankind of trait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: And, I think at the moment of someone pulling the trigger, the moment of someone stabbing someone, robbing someone, the color

of your skin is quite inconsequential. I mean it is the kind of human drive to commit crime or to act in an unethical way.

[21:45:11] PINSKY: And, you know --

CATHERWOOD: That is at the core of what we all want to kind of solve, you know?

PINSKY: And, we have reported plenty of white on white crime on this program and this network certainly. And, some of those stories have been

just reprehensible behavior.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Men taking their children and blowing up the house. I mean just horrible, horrible stuff and we do not talk about that as a white on

white crime, right? So, the point is well taken, I think.

But, there is -- I wonder if there is a different quality of the crime or is it actually the way we analyze and look at them. I think each all

should check ourselves about. And, by the way, only and so far as it helps us solve the problems of this and whatever community you happen to be in.

Next up, a mother`s routine trip to her child`s school ends up in a scuffle with police. We have the video. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:50:17] PINSKY: Time now for my "Click Fix," where the guests tell what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and/or Instagram feeds and

it is Mike first.

CATHERWOOD: Yes, I have a viral that is gone -- a video that has gone viral that features a Philadelphia police officer behaving very badly. A

man pulled over for a routine traffic stop and when the officer learned his car was unregistered, this is what happened. Check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: You and your friend got any money to buy these (Hero) Thrill Show Tickets to support your police department?

Ten bucks each, man. You either buy these or I take your car because it is unregistered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: And, what is up with the (EXPLETIVE WORD) wipers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Breast cancer, man. My grandmother has it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Breast cancer, I can understand. But cannot you support breast support it in another way, you are like a

fruit cake. You know, what the hell?

(LAUGHING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHACHER: Whoa!

BARNETT: Wow!

PINSKY: Wow!

CATHERWOOD: Yes, it is weird. I mean it is strange. The officer -- he is 32 years old, a nine-year veteran of the police department for the

city of brotherly love. He is been placed on leave pending an internal affairs investigation. So --

PINSKY: Wow. It is like he was punking somebody. It looks so bizarre.

CATHERWOOD: I was waiting for like, "Yes, I encouraged you to jump out."

PINSKY: All right. Vanessa, what do you got?

BARNETT: Those tickets must have been important. Another stop. A dash cam video from a police stop has gone viral with a Florida mom -- good

stuff happens in Florida, man. A Florida mom alleging an officer used excessive force during her arrest. You will see her in a second.

The 34-year-old mother still wearing her pajamas, the best part of the story, was parked in a school zone when she was approached for having that

clear, plastic, obscuring her license plate. Yikes.

The woman was reportedly not carrying her license or registration and the dialogue there with the officer escalated and she was thrown to the

ground -- yeah, and handcuffed. The officer said she was, of course, resisting arrest, which is common these days.

Her criminal case was closed last week after she completed 16 hours of community service. And, she has filed a complaint alleging excessive

force. The Tampa Police Department is conducting an internal affairs investigation.

PINSKY: All right, Sam, what do you got?

SCHACHER: OK. This story has appeared all over news feeds. They are calling it a hostage crisis with a twist. We have video from CNN San Diego

affiliate KGTV. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Female is calling 9-1-1 advising that her cat is holding her and her adult daughter hostage in the bedroom

and attacks them when they try to leave. .

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Mom tells me her daughter went to the bathroom in the middle of the night and the family cat cornered her for

hours. When the daughter would move, he would swat shredding up her nightgown.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN YARGER, NEIGHBOR: This is my weapon just --

UNIDENIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Karen Yarger came from across the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Can I borrow your weapon.

YARGER: Yes, please.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Their weapon was unusual and their commands were not exactly filled with authority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Kitty, kitty, kitty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: Cuppy was not afraid to face armed officers. They stood back and waited out the stair down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You, guys, never know what kind of call you are going to get, do you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHACHER: The cat`s name is Cuppy and a family cat for 14 years and now because of this altercation they are considering putting the cat down.

So, I want to say, I will take Cuppy. Swear to God. To the owners of Cuppy, please do not put Cuppy down. I will take Cuppy.

PINSKY: Cuppy have a brain tumor.

SCHACHER: I will deal with it. I will deal with it.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: Do not put Cuppy down, please. I will deal with it.

PINSKY: Samantha Schacher, DM her on Twitter.

SCHACHER: Yes. 100 percent, DM me. Somebody, if you know Cuppy`s parents, I will take care of Cuppy.

PINSKY: What is your Twitter handle?

SCHACHER: Sam Schacher.

CATHERWOOD: Sam is very familiar with dangerous pussycats.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: All right. Back after this. There is a video that caught my attention. We are going to go to that after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

[21:54:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: A man is being called a hero for keeping a reckless driver off a busy Ohio interstate. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Stop the [EXPLETIVE WORD] car! Hey! What the [EXPLETIVE WORD] are you doing. Stop your [EXPLETIVE WORD] car. Stop

the car. Stop the [EXPLETIVE WORD] car. Are you OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I am fine. It is just -- Oh, my goodness. I am so sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What is going on? You fell off the road a few times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I know. I am so sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My sister was in a car accident. She is not going to walk anymore. Really, do not want to see that happen to

anybody else, so that is why I wanted to stop you, ma`am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, that woman was taken to the hospital, charged with drunk driving, driving under the influence, probably -- maybe something like

heroin. The hero driver says in 2009 his older sister was struck by a driver also in the influence of heroin.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: That is why he was so sensitive. That woman, her sister, will spend the rest of her life in a wheelchair. Now, well done,

gentleman. Now, before we go. I want to show you all a clip from our special transgender in America airing this Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENIFIED TRANSGENDER SPEAKER: I am sitting there telling her on the first day we met that I am transgender. I am really a woman.

PINSKY: And, you never told anybody that?

UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER SPEAKER: I had never openly talked about that with anybody. And, the really amazing thing about it is that she

did not run away. And, she still has not run away. We have been together for 34 years. We have been married for --

PINSKY: Wow!

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: We have two special shows on the topic this week. "Transgender in America" airs Wednesday and "Transgender on Race" airs

Thursday both at 9:00 P.M. eastern on HLN.

Thank you all for watching. Remember to check us out on Instagram. Check us out on SnapChat and Facebook, DrDrewHLN. Tomorrow night, my

daughter is going to join the panel.

SCHACHER: Yes!

PINSKY: I am anxious about, to say the least. It would be interesting. See you next time.

(LAUGHING) .

END