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Dr. Drew
A Texas Deputy Executed In Cold Blood; Statements From Andy Parker Whose Daughter Alison Was Murdered Brutally Live On Television; Incredible Video Of A Sinkhole Swallowing Four People In China; The Duggars Speak Out. Aired 9-10p ET.
Aired September 03, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:11] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, a Texas deputy executed in cold blood. Is they are a linked to Black Lives Matter. Plus,
a reporter and photographer murdered on live T.V., hear what Alison Parker`s father wants us to know tonight.
It all starts right now with the "Top of the Feed." A 47-year-old sheriff`s deputy, never saw it coming. He was shot in the head and back,
15 times. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF RON HICKMAN, HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF: Deputy Darren H. Goforth, 47-year-old, ten year veteran was literally gunned down at a service
station just down the road in what appears to be an unprovoked, execution- style killing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Investigators are still searching for a motive, but the county sheriff says he believes Goforth`s death may be
linked to Black Lives Matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF HICKMAN: This rhetoric has gotten out of control. We have heard "Black Lives Matter," "All Lives Matter." Well, cops lives matter
too. So, why will not we just drop the qualifier and just say "Lives Matter."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DERAY MCKESSON, ORGANIZER AND ACTIVIST, "BLACK LIVES MATTER": The only charged rhetoric of the movement has been about, "I am holding
officers accountable."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, former special agent with the secret service. Vanessa Barnett, HipHollywood.com. Mike
Cathewood, my "Love Line" and KABC co-host. We are on 790 AM at noontime; host of "Chain Reaction" on GSN.
Areva Martin, attorney and legal commentator. And, with us as well, John Cardillo, former New York City Police Officer, host of the "John
Cardillo" show at 1290 WJNO. Vanessa, my question to you is, has the "Black Lives Matter" rhetoric just gone too far?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: No. I do not know what the connection in this case is as of right now. There has not been a motive
established. All we know is that the man, who allegedly did this crime was black and that the officer was white. That is all the information that we
have right. So, to connect the two does not make sense to me, when the Black Lives Movement is not at all about gunning down officers.
PINSKY: Well, there was some crazy rhetoric over the weekend in Minnesota. John, it was in Minneapolis, I think, was not it? When they
were saying fry the police or something?
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" AND KABC CO-HOST/ HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: Pigs in a blanket.
PINSKY: Pig in a blanket. John, did you see that stuff.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, yes. "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon and do not forget New York City". "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want
them? Now." Chanting over and over. It is ridiculous to say "Black Lives Matter" did not insight this. It has actually become a radical terrorist
hate group.
PINSKY: Well, hold on. Wait, wait, wait. We jumped way into this argument here fast. Let me -- hang on.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: -- at this point, that is ridiculous.
PINSKY: Yes, let me -- Mike, let us talk about the guy that alleged perpetrator.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: He had quite a sheet, right?
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I mean he has definitely had quite a history. Shannon Miles, he is 30 years young. Harris County Texas Sheriff says he
has a history of resisting arrest, trespassing and disorderly conduct with the firearm. While he has had several run-ins with the police, he has no
prior interactions with this officer.
PINSKY: Wait, I heard he was actually put away in a state psychiatric hospital.
CATHERWOOD: In 2012, Dr. .Drew, he was found mentally incompetent to stand trial after allegedly attacking a man in a homeless shelter, where he
was staying. And he was sent to a mental hospital for six months and then declared competent. But, they could not try him for that case, because
they never found the victim.
PINSKY: See, Evy, what kills me about all these cases, and the one we are going to talk about later as well is, oftentimes, it is people with
mental illness getting their hands on guns.
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT/FORMER SPECIAL AGENT WITH THE SECRET SERVICE: Yes.
PINSKY: Should they have access to guns if you have that -- if you are six months in state mental hospital?
POUMPOURAS: No. And, if you look at the law, the law is all screwed up, that is why they keep trying to redefine these gun control laws. The
law says, if you are deemed mentally incompetent, that means that a judge or a court or some other entity says, you are mentally incompetent, then
they put you in an institution, then you cannot get a gun.
PINSKY: Ever?
POUMPOURAS: Yes, technically --
PINSKY: Depends on the state.
POUMPOURAS: Depends on the state, depends on the circumstances. But, listen to this. Let us say you still suffer from the same disorder.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: Let us say, you have a mental issue.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: And, then you decided on your own, "You know what? I am going to go get help. And, voluntarily, I go to get some help from an
institution. I can still get a gun, because I put myself there." So, the law has to so many quirks and issues. What they need to do is redefine.
PINSKY: Areva, come on now. Is that what we should be worried about as opposed to "Black Lives Matter?"
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. We should be worried about the mental health issues. One of the things as Mike read
that guy`s wrap sheet, I did not hear you read that he was a member of "Black Lives Matter."
So, I am not sure how they are making this huge connection between this group, which primarily sprung up on social media, have been talking
about police accountability, not talking about killing police officers. Now, are there some fringe members, are there are some people who are on
the fringes of this group who may hate police officers?
Absolutely, all groups have fringe members, but you cannot hold the entire "Black Lives Matter" movement, which is responsible for so many good
things that are happening, like today, 7,000 Los Angeles Police Officers, who are wearing body cams for the first time in the history of Los Angeles.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:05:00] PINSKY: And, by the way, taxpayers are not paying for it. It was donated by private donations. So, it was something --
MARTIN: But, the whole movement to get body cams, you have to draw some correlation between the protests by groups like "Black Lives Matter."
CATHERWOOD: I think Areva`s point is very important. Dr. Drew, after you left the radio show today in the afternoon at KABC, I took nothing but
calls from black citizens. Some of them are law enforcement themselves saying that, these radicals that may be dressing themselves up as the
"Black Lives Matter" movement, do not in any way represent either them as members of the Black Lives Movement or African-Americans period.
PINSKY: Mike, hold on. Evy, hold on. John, I want to relive a moment that I have right here in the set, like last week. If you guys
could get the tape for me in the control room. We had a guy -- you will remember this, John, who got up in the audience, right? And made some
pretty inflammatory remarks. Let us play that if we could. All right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is only a matter of time before the people start shooting at the police and say whether they are shooting
at us. It is like they do not realize that they are kind of starting a revolution.
PINSKY: If anything, you worry that could happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am saying, it is just a matter of time before it happened.
PINSKY: Well, you are saying it is going to happen. Be careful. Be careful.
(CROSSTALKS)
(LAUGHING)
RYAN SORBA, CHAIRMAN OF THE YOUNG CONSERVATIVES OF CALIFORNIA: It has already happened in New York --
PINSKY: Be careful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, then, John, you reacted to that rather strongly? .
CARDILLO: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: You want to have at it again? How do you connect between -- Is that guy -- people are starting to think that way because of a social
movement?
CARDILLO: Let me explain this, because I have been studying the "Black Lives Matter" movement and digging in very deep. Recently, the new
Black Panther Party and the Nation of Islam have very visibly called for the murders of police officers in whites.
And, before I am cut off, it is important to understand that they have provided with the explicit permission of "Black Lives Matter" perimeter
security at their events -- at "Black Lives Matter" events. "Black Lives Matter" groups are marching with banners that say "Black Lives Matter,"
calling for the murder of police.
Now, before people shut me down and tell me this did not happen, there is streaming video on 500 sites showing it did. So, "Black Lives Matter"
is absolutely responsible for the incendiary rhetoric that leads to violence against police and law abiding citizens.
PINSKY: But, Vanessa, again, is it just the periphery? Do they need to take responsibility for that?
BARNETT: Just spouting off ignorant comments that you almost cannot even respond to. No, they are not out here, attacking and killing police
officers. You are taking one isolated incident and then there was another incident in New York from people -- from rogue radical people, who are not
paying in dues to "Black Lives Matter." That is not what we have here.
And, I do not know why you are so threatened by me saying my life matters. Black Lives Matter and that is OK. I am not saying your life
matter any less, so for you to be threatened by that because you have people -- a group of people coming together for good --
(CROSSTALK)
CARDILLO: No one is threatened by it.
BARNETT: No one is going out and not the majority of that group is asking for cops to be murdered. You are just spouting off ridiculous
things to get on T.V., and no one is here for you. No one is here for you.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Hang on. Let me go to the audience. Hang on, John. Hold on a second, Vanessa. Yes, sir, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, first of all, I would like to give my condolences to the deputy and his family. My heart goes out to
them.
(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)
Second of all, as an African-American male right here, and seeing that playback of the tape, I am totally appalled. I think that is something not
called for, I just simply think this -- we are all human beings, all lives does matter, and our law enforcement should be respected; but I am -- I
have fear as a black man, because of this incident, I do not want the media to turn this into a black and white issue when it should not be.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, Areva, the point is well taken. And, maybe Black Lives Matter is ill-serving their point, their defense --
MARTIN: I disagree with that, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: -- by in anyway being associated with the things that John says they are being associated.
MARTIN: Well, I disagree with that. Black Lives Matter have had an incredible impact on the constitutional policing in just one year that they
sprung up after the death of Mike Brown. So, I think they are absolutely on point. And, as to Vanessa`s point, when we say black lives matter, we
are not saying that white lives do not matter, or that police lives do not matter. All lives matter.
PINSKY: But, John feels that there is some elements in there saying - -
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: But, you have to recognize Black Lives Matter is calling attention to the issue of racial disparities in policing as it relates to
African-Americans. That is real.
PINSKY: Hang on.
MAR TIN: You cannot dismiss that.
PINSKY: Last thought, Evy. John, hold on. We got to take a break.
POUPOURAS: I got to -- I want to just say something.
PINSKY: Very quick.
POUMPOURAS: You know what? I do not exactly -- I do not agree with what John is saying, black lives do matter and they should be allowed to
express themselves. But, the other thing, I want to point out is this, the moment we have a white officer get involved in a shootout with an African-
American, automatically, that stereotype is in there, that "Oh, this must have been racist."
So, I just feel like it is just happening on both sides. And, before we make judgments, white, black, whatever, we should know what happened
before we start calling people racists.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. Next up, I got a friend of the slain deputy joining me. And, later what the parents of a murdered daughter reporter
saying tonight. We are back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Shannon Miles, the suspect, the man accused of murdering Darren Goforth, accused of capital murder, which he is
facing the death penalty. When he walked in, it was extremely quiet. Several dozen sheriff`s deputies inside that courtroom, watching all of
this unfold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVON ANDERSON, HARRIS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: It is time for the silent majority in this country to support law enforcement. There are few
bad apples in every profession. That does not mean that there should be open warfare declared on law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We, of course, are discussing the execution-style killing of a Houston area sheriff`s deputy. I am back with Evy, Vanessa, Mike, Areva,
John and joining me by phone, I got Carl Pittman from Project 21, a black leadership group. He is a criminal investigator for the Harris County
Sheriff`s Office, and he knew the deputy in Houston who had been shot.
[21:05:00] Carl, first of all, thanks for joining us, and I am really sorry about the loss of your friend and the community in general has had a
major trauma and a major loss. My question is, where is this going? I had someone in my studio talk about shooting back at cops, and then a week
later somebody shoots at cops, spontaneously. Where is this headed?
CARL PITTMAN, WORKED WITH DEPUTY GOFORT/CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR FOR THE HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, you know, if you look at the
overall, what has happened in the country over the last year and a half or two years in some of these major events.
We have seen even the leadership in this country, the political leadership has literally approved of bad behavior, whether it has been in
the Mike Brown incident and obviously latest there in Baltimore.
And, so, a lot of people are taking this, as some sort of green light to go out and continue to act in these lawless ways. And, I fear that we
are going to see this get much, much worse before it gets better.
PINSKY: Carl, I am going to hold you for a second. Areva, I am sympathetic to what he is saying, is that people might be confusing their
constitutional privilege to speak out, with the escalation of this to some sort of violence.
MARTIN: Yes, but all due respect to Mr. Pittman, I just do not see who he is referring to when he talks about political leaders and people in
Baltimore condoning this kind of bad behavior. All I have seen are elected officials and community leaders of people who stand up and say, "It is
absolutely unacceptable to ever kill a police officer."
PINSKY: Does anybody understand --
MARTIN: No one supports this kind of crime.
PINSKY: Well, I am going to ask, is any in the panelists agree with what Mr. Carl is saying?
POUMPOURAS: I do empathize with what he is saying. I do think that there are small group --
PINSKY: What is he saying? Who is he talking about?
POUMPOURAS: But, I think he is talking about -- Well, I am not going to speak -- well, you know what? Take New York City. Take New York City
Police Department, New York, where a lot of the police officers in New York City are very upset with Mayor De Blasio.
In fact, there was a circumstance when Mayor De Blasio was walking by and they all turned their back on him. They feel -- I think, it should be
twofold. We should support, obviously, Black Lives Matter, like bar none, but you have to support police officers, and just even talking to the
officers that I know.
I am just speaking from -- you know, I am speaking for the officers that I know, and being tight with the law enforcement community. Moral is
at the bottom, at the bottom. And, they are less reluctant to pull their weapon out. They are less reluctant to do something about an incident.
PINSKY: More reluctant.
POUMPOURAS: Well, you are less reluctant to do anything -- excuse me, more reluctant.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
POUMPOURAS: Because if I know, if I make the wrong decision -- that is the thing when you are a cop. You got to make a decision with a minimum
amount of information, within seconds and you better hope you make the right decision.
But God forbid you make the wrong decision, or even a semi loop form decision, you are done. You are going to be crucified. And, that is the
thing, it is a scary thing to go out there, to try to do your job, and be afraid someone is going to sue you.
Someone is going to call you a racist. Someone is going to call you these things. I am not saying that there are not bad apples, there are,
but the majority of cops, they are good people --
PINSKY: I got to tell you guys. Listen, this kind of -- same kind of scrutiny has been going on, John, in medicine for a long time. I really
feel like it is the same thing happened to you guys` professions as happened in mine 30 years ago, which is they are crawling into every
crevice and holding us accountable for everything. And, it is trying to be a pretty good thing in the long run.
CARDILLO: Yes, but here is the problem. And, I am going to say this to Pittman, because he is acting a duty law enforcement. Barack Obama,
Eric Holder, Bill De Blasio, Rahm Emanuel, and the list goes on horribly race baited and incited this violence against cops. They sent 40 --
(AUDIENCE DISAGREEING)
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. They sent 40 FBI agents to Ferguson for the murder of Mike Brown. The DOJ cleared Darren Wilson. They sent DOJ
and FBI agents to every shooting for a white police officer shoots a black male. But, when a cop is killed, they are nowhere to be seen and nowhere
to be heard.
PINSKY: OK, I want to get to --
CARDILLO: That is exactly that way it is.
PINSKY: I want to hear from my audience. They are ready to be heard. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think we live in a society that likes to focus on the negative. So, when something bad happens, and
if the black person is going to be like black lives matter is corrupt.
And, the same thing with cops, like whenever there was a shooting, it is like "Oh, all cops are bad." All cops are not bad. I mean I grew up in
an abusive home, and a cop is the reason why I got out. He is the reason why I was able to get emancipated from my home. So --
PINSKY: Good.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
But, Mike, I think she is getting at something you and I were talking about a lot today, which is the silliness of media, what catches attention.
CATHERWOOD: Right. And, there is no one to blame. She said that, you know, the negative aspects become intriguing. We, as citizens, are
force fed the negative stories by we, indeed.
PINSKY: Yes. We are not trying to enforce here --
CATHERWOOD: No --
PINSKY: We are trying to analyze.
CATHERWOOD: Right.
PINSKY: We are trying to look at it.
CATHERWOOD: And, in fairness, if you are in the business of getting ratings, no one is going to tune into a T.V. show that says --
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: "A news at 11:00, cop is a good family man."
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: What do we do? Do you have any solutions, Carl?
PITTMAN: The first thing we need to do is quit this rhetoric that one life is more important than another.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: That is not what that is.
PITTMAN: You know, all lives -- all lives matter.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: And, that is where you are ill informed. Black lives matter does not take away from you. I am sorry, it does not. It just reaffirms
the fact that our lives matter.
[21:10:01] And for some reason, in society, it seemed that we are less valued. And, that is a fact, black lives, Brown lives have been less
value in the history of this country.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
So, for me and other black people to say, my life matters and I need you to understand that, and I need you to hear that, that is not taking
away anything from any other life, that is in this room.
PINSKY: But, Vanessa, you are really saying what Carl is saying, though, too.
BARNETT: No. He is saying that, I have to say, all lives matter, because if I do not --
PINSKY: But, you are also saying that, though.
BARNETT: In addition to saying that --
PINSKY: OK. All right.
BARNETT: But if the emphasis right now needs to be that black lives matter because some people do not understand that they actually do. We are
looking for accountability. We want police when they kill unarmed men, and that is wrong. That is a crime, then they should be held accountable.
Because this man that shot that sheriff is going to jail for a very long time. He will be held accountable.
PINSKY: Go ahead last comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am very dismayed what the New York Officer just said.
PINSKY: Cardillo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. I am extremely dismayed because he is blaming Barack Obama, Eric Holder. If anything, I feel like
Barack Obama has brought more peace. And that --
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let us hear what John means in all this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Not globally.
PINSKY: But, the reason we are having --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is not globally. This is a local issue about the police.
PINSKY: Right. But, the reason we are having this conversation is because there is not more peace, because we are having this problem. But,
John is saying that it is directly related to our leadership. What should the leadership do then, John? Last thing, then I got to go.
CARDILLO: Well, I mean obviously they should not race bait against police. They should preach restraint until law enforcement conducts a
thorough investigation. You want to send in the DOJ, do it; but as we have learned in Ferguson, the DOJ cleared the police officer. Unfortunately,
the rhetoric caused looting and rioting prior.
PINSKY: All right, my friend. Thank you, John. Thank you. We will get the audience. All right, go ahead. I got time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The person sitting at home watching all this.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: What you are seeing is campaigning on one side and a campaigning on another side.
PINSKY: So rhetoric right? We are arguing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. You have black lives matter on one side. They are all peaceful people.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Then you do have the rogue, people that want to take it into their own hands. But, you have the police
department who now has a match lit under their behind and now they are excited, because one of their own has been --
PINSKY: So, what you are saying -- let me -- I want to just sort of cut to the -- paraphrase what you are saying. The extremes on both sides
are going to cause a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly.
PINSKY: The rational minds need to prevail, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. And, we need to listen to each other in order for that to happen.
BARNETT: Yes. And, I do not think this case needs both sides, because Black Lives Matter do care about the fact that this man was gunned
down. This is also -- this is disgusting.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: No one should be on a side on this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, that is right. OK. Let us leave it at that. I think that is where we should stop.
Next we will hear from a father of a reporter who was killed live on television, and more about guns and mental illness, back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:52] CHRIS HURST, REPORTER ALISON PARKER`S BOYFRIEND: This is happening over and over and over again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY PARKER, REPORTER ALISON PARKER`S FATHER: You always think there is a tipping point. We thought that when Gabby was shot, you know,
something would happen. With Sandy Hook something would happen. With Aurora something would happen, and it never did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA PARKER, REPORTER ALISON PARKER`S MOTHER: We cannot be told that this fight has been fought before. And, that we are just one more
grieving family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HURST: I hope and pray that this is the event that causes that tide to turn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA PARKER: We cannot be intimidated. We cannot be pushed aside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY PARKER: Alison would be really mad at me if I did not take this on, and I promise you these people are messing with the wrong family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You just heard from Andy Parker whose daughter Alison was murdered brutally live on television. A disgruntled former co-worker shot
and killed Alison, and the photographer Adam Ward live on the morning news in Virginia.
I am back with Evy, Vanessa, Mike, Areva, and John. We are also joined by attorney and clinical psychologist, Lisa Strohman. Alison
Parker`s dad says this shooting will be the tipping point in this country. Evy, is there any point to that? Is he right? Are we finally going to do
something --
POUMPOURAS: No.
PINSKY: No.
POUMPOURAS: No. No, I am sorry. There have been what? Column behind Sandy Hook? I mean this started for years and years.
PINSKY: Why? Why is it so hard for us?
POUMPOURAS: Because you have people who really believe that they should have guns and instead of saying, "You know, let us have less guns."
CARDILLO: They should.
POUMPOURAS: You know -- who is that?
PINSKY: John. That is John. John Cardillo. Go ahead, John. Why?
POUMPOURAS: Wait a minute.
PINSKY: Why should they?
POUMPOURAS: I am sorry, you know --
CARDILLO: Because we have a second --
POUMPOURAS: Hang on.
CARDILLO: Hold on. Because we have second --
POUMPOURAS: OK, so --
CARDILLO: Because we have a second amendment.
POUMPOURAS: All right.
CARDILLO: Because we have a second amendment, unless you are going to ratify --
POUMPOURAS: Yes. OK.
CARDILLO: We have a second amendment.
POUMPOURAS: OK.
CARDILLO: We have a constitution.
POUMPORAS: OK.
CARDILLO: And, that is the fact.
POUMPOURAS: OK. Can I respond to you.
CARDILLO: That is the fact.
POUMPOURAS: Can I respond to you.
CARDILLO: You want to take guns away from good guys and give them to bad guys, because criminals do not follow gun laws.
PINSKY: Evy.
POUMPOURAS: What are you talking -- you are all over the place. I am starting to agree with Vanessa on this right here.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
First of all, I am a former special agent. You are a former officer. You and I have been trained not just physically to handle the weapon, but
mentally.
CARDILLO: Oh, come on.
POUMPOURAS: Just be quiet.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
CARDILLO: Give me a break. Give me a break.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
POUMPOURAS: So, what is your issue is --
CARDILLO: Where is the --
POUMPOURAS: Wait. You are talking about --
CARDILLO: We are in the 2nd amendment --
POUMPOURAS: Is this his show?
CARDILLO: We are in the 2nd amendment --
POUMPOURAS: Can we go to commercial?
PINSKY: Can we go to commercial.
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: Wait. No, hold on. In fairness, Mr. Cardillo -- Mr. Cardillo --
POUMPOURAS: No. No. It is the Cardillo Show tonight.
CATHERWOOD: If you understand though, and I am pro-gun, and I am not someone saying, we should take all guns off the street. But, the second
amendment was written in a time when personal militia and things like firearms were erratically -- I mean egregiously different than the world we
live in today.
CARDILLO: Mike. Mike, I normally -- Hold on. I normally agree with you.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
CARDILLO: I normally agree with you, but on this one, I do not. The second amendment was written so that the populous could not be controlled -
-
PINSKY: By the government.
CARDILLO: -- after being disarmed by a tyrannical government.
PINSKY: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: Right. But, at the population was such that it was a real threat.
PINSKY: The shadow --
CARDILLO: Well, so, we could say --
PINSKY: But, John, the shadow of a revolution against the British Government --
CARDILLO: Hold on, you could say the same --
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Hang on a second. I do not want to fight about should guns be, you know, good guys or bad guys. I want to talk
about the mentally ill. Lisa, you are a psychologist. The guy that did the shooting in this case, you and I think has sort of schizoaffective-type
disorder based on what we are hearing and seeing.
LISA STROHMAN, PH.D., ATTORNEY AND CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Most likely.
[21:30:00] PINSKY: Why do people who should not get their hands on guns consistently do so? Would you agree that is the problem?
STROHMAN: The system is broken. Mental health law, and if you look at what we are doing, everything that we look at in a database, when we get
a gun, we look at the FBI database to see whether or not they have a criminal history. And, the only time you check mental history, is whether
or not they have had an adjudicated mental health issue where they have been court ordered to have any sort of mental health treatment.
PINSKY: Why cannot we have a law that says -- And, Areva, I am asking you the same question. If somebody is put on a 72-hour hold, but they
cannot manage their own life or they either a danger to themselves or somebody else or so greatly disabled, they have to be in a locked facility.
Why could not that person be somebody that is especially evaluated. Lisa, first.
(AUDIENCE APPLADING)
STROHMAN: That person should be evaluated for sure. Absolutely. The problem is that how do we create a database? And, I have argued the point.
PINSKY: We have fantastic technology these days.
STROHMAN: Right.
PINSKY: We are doing it for opiates, why cannot we do it for guns.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
STROHMAN: Who controls it? Who controls it? Who has access and how do we protect it?
PINSKY: Well, Areva, how?
MARTIN: Well, California did something just like that Dr. Drew, after the Santa Barbara shooting. They went to the shooter`s house. Saw that he
was in no shape to own a gun, but the law did not allow them to take it away from him, because he was not -- you know, he was not someone that was
not permitted to have a gun because he had a prior felony, et cetera. So, we jump into action, passed the law that now says if someone is in anyway
mentally incapacitated or --
PINSKY: In whose view? In whose view?
MARTIN: The law enforcement has the right to take a gun away from someone who is a danger to themselves or perhaps a danger to someone else.
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Evy says no.
POUMPOURAS: It is not that easy. You have to have a reason why you are going to take a gun from someone. There is actually --
MARTIN: But it is the first step. California --
PINSKY: I have sent -- No, but Areva, I have sent law enforcement --
MARTIN: That is the point here. We get --
PINSKY: I have sent law enforcement into people`s home and said, "I want this gun taken away from somebody." And, they went in and said, "You
have the ammunition." And, the person said, "No." I do not know if that is that is the truth or not. They went, "Fine, see you later."
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Everyone gets hung up on trying to solve the entire problem. Let us take some steps, that is what people who want sensible gun laws say,
let us take some steps. We do not have to solve the entire problem. Let us just take some steps. That is when people wants sensible gun laws. So,
let us just take some steps.
PINSKY: All right. Let me --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MARTIN: You do not have to solve the entire problem to make some progress.
PINSKY: Let us talk a little bit about the guys that did the shooting. I got a tweet from a guy named Dave who says, quote, "Chronic
anger is not mental illness. Saying this guys was mentally ill is an insult to people who struggle with mental illness." Lisa, you agree with
that or disagree with that?
STROHMAN: I think it is challenging that he is saying that they are mentally ill. That is a very broad spectrum statement, when you say that.
And, I do not think that you can just go along and say that --
PINSKY: This guy was an injustice collector?
STROHMAN: Injustice collector.
PINSKY: Meaning what? Explain that.
STROHMAN: In profiling, which I worked in for a long time. Those people go along and they take all of the information, bits and pieces of
the bias, it is perceptual discernment. All of it.
PINSKY: So, they see injustice everywhere and sort of collect it in their head.
STROHMAN: Absolutely.
CATHERWOOD: Professional victim.
PINSKY: Professional victim. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think, actually, really gun control is really only half the problem. The other half of the problem
should actually be focusing on the actual mental health. Not the fact that they are getting a hold of the gun, but the fact that these people have
mental health issues. And, there is not enough emphasis in this country on fixing mental health and not numbing it with pills and medication.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I completely agree with that. Completely.
CATHERWOOD: And, let us be fair. You know, judging by your accent, you are not a native American.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Wait a minute, where is she from? Clearly the orient, Japan?
CATHERWOOD: We are Americans and let us be fair. There is mental health issues all over the globe. We, as Americans, are particularly
violent in how we handle --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, we are.
CATHERWOOD: How we handle mental illness is often manifested with violence.
PINSKY: This tweet is a great example of that. We are in denial about mental illness. It is just an angry dude. There is a reason people
get agitated and angered, the point that they become violent --
BARNETT: I do not think it is just denial --
PINSKY: That is denial.
BARNETT: I think it is this education.
PINSKY: Well --
BARNETT: Everybody does not know what you know. When I look at this, when you say, it is mental health, I am like that is an excuse. When it
was Dylann Roof, I was like, that is an excuse. When it was all these other shooters --
PINSKY: We have been bringing you along.
BARNETT: I am getting there, but it is only because of education --
PINSKY: Slowly.
BARNETT: And only because of you --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
BARNETT: -- everyone does not have that. That is another problem as mention.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I think it is escalated out of control, and a lot of people already own guns, but if you want to be
rational about it. OK, we need to have a driver`s license to drive a car and you could kill somebody if you do not. So, why cannot we enforce some
sort of, you know, safety issues like where you can pass -- you can show that you can handle a gun --
PINSKY: Seems rational.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- safely.
PINSKY: We got to hold this conversation across the break. And, later, an incredible video of a sinkhole swallowing four people in China,
back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:34:33] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY PARKER: Every time there has been one of these tragedies, you know, we all say, "Well, this is the tipping point." You know, this is --
you know, something is going to get done after Newtown, after Aurora.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HURST: People who were not supposed to die are killed senselessly. We are all upset. We all then decide. We really need to talk about this,
and then we forget about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY PARKER: If I have to be the John Walsh of gun control and -- you know, look, I am for the second amendment, but there has to be a way to
come to grips and make sense -- have sensible laws, so that crazy people cannot get guns. It cannot be that hard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Andy Parker wrote an Op-Ed for the "Washington Post" just days after his daughter, that was him there, was killed. He writes, "I
realized the magnitude of the force that opposes sensible and reasonable safeguards and the purchase of the devices that have a single purpose to
kill.
We must focus our attention on the legislators who are responsible for America`s criminally weak gun laws. Laws that facilitate the access,
dangerous individuals have to firearms."
Back with my guest and my live audience. And, Lisa, you were going to put quotes of data on how many people are with serious mental illness who
would have an issue with a gun in their hand, potentially.
STROHMAN: See, you have to consider -- you have like one in five people in the public have some sort of mental illness. And, if you look at
--
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Let us stop it there. You and I have discussed, we have mental illness.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: I got anxiety disorder.
[21:40:00] CATHERWOOD: I am probably worse than you.
PINSKY: You got a couple of diagnoses. I have one prominent. One, anxiety disorder. Mike has had addiction. He has had some affect mood
disturbances. That is what we talked about -- we say mental illness.
STROHMAN: Right.
PINSKY: It is not like you are homeless and unable to function. These are common medical conditions. But --
STROHMAN: Three in a hundred people have some level of psychosis.
PINSKY: OK. Now, that is different, right?
STROHAM: Right.
PINSKY: Describe what that is.
STROHMAN: So, when you have psychosis, that is hallucinations. You are hearing -- you are seeing things that are not there.
PINSKY: Your judgment is off.
STROHMAN: Your judgment is completely off. And, those are the people that they may look normal when you look at them. But, they are not normal
inside. And, they are thinking about things that you have no idea.
PINSKY: And, they should not have guns.
STROHMAN: They should not have guns.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: In line with that, when we are talking about mental illness, why has the legislation not been passed in
order for us to get testing for people before they purchase assault rifles and things of that nature.
PINSKY: Well, that is what somebody --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why is that even available to the public? Why do we have to have that?
PINSKY: Evy, why do we need assault rifles?
POUMPOURAS: You know, a lot of legislative officials are out there trying to fight for this. But, what is interesting is, we talked about the
background check. The only reason we do background checks on people is because of the assassination that is set on Reagan, back in the early 90`s.
If it was not for that, we would not be doing background checks.
PINSKY: John -- why assault rifles, John?
CARDILLO: First of all, I am a little alarmed that a secret service agent thinks Reagan`s assassination attempt was in the early `90`s. It was
the 1980. But, we do background checks to ensure that someone where the felony conviction cannot buy a firearms. Now, I agree there is a problem
with those at 3 percent, who are severely mentally ill. --
POUMPOURAS: Well, that path is along `90`s. But, that is OK.
CARDILLO: However -- well, Reagan was at the time is in 1980 --
PINSKY: Keep going. Finish your thought.
CARDILLO: We do require training. I live in Florida, which is very gun friendly. I am former NYPD. I had to provide proof of training to
carry a firearm.
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: But, let me say something.
PINSKY: Finish.
CARDILLO: Lastly. Over my left shoulder is a 357 magnum and 44 magnum. It sat on that shelf for months. They have never jumped up on
their own and hurt anyone.
POUMPOURAS: Right, because you are a former police officer and you have training --
CARDILLO: No.
POUMPOURAS: You are a different animal.
CARDILLO: No, it is because they are --
POUMPOURAS: Obviously.
CARDILLO: No, it is because they are inanimate object.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Hold on. Mike --
CARDILLO: Inanimate object.
PINSKY: We get it. I get your little thought.
CATHERWOOD: Next on my battle with addiction, and my disease has unfortunately -- I am not using this as a badge of honor, I am very
disappointed in the fact that my disease had led me to be around people who used guns and commit crimes.
PINSKY: That when you were using drugs.
CATHERWOOD: And have -- you know, I will be open, have killed people.
PINSKY: When you were using drugs?
CATHERWOOD: And, I, unfortunately, shared the same kind of conversation area with those people. And, not one of them was using
illegal firearms. Every single one of them had illegally obtained Saturday night special or gun show obtained.
PINSKY: You did not have any insight into what we could do?
CATHERWOOD: I am just simply saying that I do think that if we make reactionary changes to the second amendment, you are going to take a lot
more guns away from good guys probably than you are in the people that at least in any experience are using guns for nefarious --
PINSKY: Areva.
MARTIN: Well, one, I do not think it is reactionary, Mike. We have been talking about gun control for a long time in this country, trying to
get some place. And, to John`s point about, you know, guns do not kill people, people kill people. It would be a whole lot more challenging and
difficult for a person who has the mental illness that you talked about to kill someone if they did not have access to a gun.
If they had to take a knife or a stick or a baseball bat, we would not be having the number of mass murders and shootings that we are talking
about, so prevalent in this country. So, get rid of the guns and we can save a lot of lives. No question about that.
PINSKY: Vanessa, you have been very quiet.
PINSKY: Because, I was wondering if we were going to touch on the fact that money has a lot to do with this. The NRA is the ones who is
writing these checks for these legislators that are refusing to pass these laws.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: But, then you must be pro-Trump then, because he is detached from all this.
BARNETT: See, why do you have to shade me? There is a lot of things you can call me, but Pro-Trump is not one of them. That is a whole
different topic.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
BARNETT: I just think that, that is also an issue. We touched on mental health, and I think that the money is also a big issue. And, I
think that, that happens so often that the check writers write the laws, not the legislators.
PINSKY: Let me read for you what Alison Parker, the victim, her mother says the reason these shootings are happening is because American
politicians are cowards. Anybody agree with that?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
CATHERWOOD: I do.
BARNETT: I think they -- yes.
PINSKY: You do, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: I do. I think that the gun lobby is as powerful as any. Would that be including tobacco, alcohol? And, whenever we see -- Vanessa
brings up a very good point. Whenever we have these arguments, whether they are around the water cooler or here on television, where we go, "Why
does not this just happen."
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: It seems like common sense. Whenever the government does not act in that fashion, it is almost always because of some lobbyist
preventing --
PINSKY: Money or bureaucracy; but Evy, let us just with last minute here, just tell me about what people can do to protect themselves in the
workplace.
POUMPOURAS: You know -- well, at the workplace, you really need to know who is around you. You need to know who you work with. If you see
people who are unstable, and something is wrong them, do not just pass it off like, "Oh, it is just Bob or it is just Sam."
Really pay attention to people. People will show you what is going on with them if you just listen. But, I think we are so self-absorbed as
individuals especially in our world that we do not really pay attention to other people.
[21:45:03:00] PINSKY: Do not.
POUMPOURAS: And, we do not --
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: And, sometimes we do not want to get into other people`s business. Right? What did your mom say, "Mind your own business." The
problem is, we mind our own business and we are not helping each other in this society.
PINSKY: The basic effort as I always say, do not -- hang on, do not assume other people`s minds work like yours does.
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
PINSKY: And, even though they may at times, and other times they may not and that is when they get into trouble. And, it is to their own
benefit if you identify them as somebody in trouble.
Coming up, the Duggars, a family embroiled in scandal, they speak out, I discuss. Back after this.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds. Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Oh, Hulk Hogan, has spent a lot of time trending on Twitter. First, he was having sex with Bubba the Love Sponge`s ex-wife.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, then there was dropping N-bombs when he is talking about his daughter`s boyfriend. And, this morning, Hogan addressed that
scandal, the N-bomb scandal on "Good Morning America," and that interview was trending like crazy. Check it out.
AMY ROBACH, ABC NEWS ANCHOR OF "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" SHOW: Are you a racist?
TERRY GENE BOLLEA, "HULK HOGAN" AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: No, I am not a racist. I am not a racist. I never should have said what I said.
It was wrong. I am embarrassed by it. But a lot of people need to realize that you inherit things from your environment.
And, where I grew up was South Tampa, and it was a really rough neighborhood. Very low income. And all my friends, we greet each other
saying that word. The word was just thrown around like it was nothing.
ROBACH: For fans who feel let down by you. Do you ask their forgiveness?
HOGAN: Oh, my gosh, please forgive me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Vanessa, do you forgive him?
BARNETT: That is for God to decide. No. Yes, I do not have anything against Hulk Hogan. I think he was a tremendous wrestler --
CATHERWOOD: Thanks, brother.
PINSKY: Did he make his case here?
BARNETT: No. No. No. No, I think he is trying to place blame elsewhere.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Because he is the one that called himself a racist. I did not make that up. He said those things to himself.
PINSKY: We can blame Florida.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: Always blame Florida
CATHERWOOD: Always blame Florida.
BARNETT: Always blame --
CATHERWOOD: That is new feature. New slogan.
PINSKY: Vanessa, go ahead.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: All right. Well, my story is a video that is kind of crazy. It is a brawl in a courtroom in Detroit. So, there is --
PINSKY: Oh no.
BARNETT: I think we have some video of this. It is two people in the courtroom. A man in yellow and a woman in the green, and they were both
found guilty of involuntary --
PINSKY: Oh.
CATHERWOOD: Ooh!
BARNETT: Oh! Oh, came before I was ready.
PINSKY: What happened?
BARNETT: So, OK. They were boyfriend and girlfriend. The jury determined that he physically abused the woman`s 3-year-old child that led
to her death. That man is the toddler`s biological father. He was there to make an impact statement.
But, of course, he was emotionally charged, and charges at the man who is responsible for his child`s death. They kicked him out of the
courtroom. The judge would not let him back in. But, she would not hold him in contempt, because clearly he is --
PINSKY: Crime of passion.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: Evy, what do you got?
POUMPOURAS: OK. So, check this video out. So, there is a video that is trending right now. It has gone viral. It was over in China. So,
there is this people waiting at a platform for a bus. And, this huge sinkhole opens up on the commuter platform and swallows four people waiting
for the bus.
PINSKY: Are they OK?
POUMPOURAS: Nobody was injured. Nobody was seriously injured. And, the hole was approximately seven feet deep. So, officials are saying --
everyone is kind of wondering how does this happen. Officials are saying, you know, due to heavy rainfall, that we think that, that is what caused
this hole to just open up and just swallow these people.
CATHERWOOD: Sure, china.
PINSKY: Wow.
CATHERWOOD: You do not see that happen in Seattle, but somehow heavy rainfall makes sinkholes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I just worry -- they tend to take extreme action against people responsible for stuff like that. You know what I mean.
CATHERWOOD: Drew, I have not seen four guys swallowed up like that. In my time --
BARNETT: Oh!
PINSKY: Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Next, next, next, next, hear what the Duggar family has to say about sex abuse. I got a little bit to
say about it myself, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)
[21:53:18] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: As Josh Duggar reportedly remains in some sort of treatment for his sex addiction, his mother and two of his sisters, the two he
sexually abused, Jill and Jessa, the two who came to his defense during the interview with Megyn Kelly; during the scandal for him, coming to the light
the fact that he had touched this girls when he was a young adolescent.
They are in a TLC special now called "Breaking the Silence." The women talked about their part in Sex Abuse Prevention seminar, which I guess was
his treatment. I am not sure how this is going to go. We will react after this. Take a look
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA SEEWALD, JOSH DUGGER YOUNGGER SISTER: I feel like this should be a discussion that people are having, even regularly. I think that it
should not be a taboo subject that we should be bringing awareness to child sexual abuse and talking about this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL DILLARD, JOSH DUGGAR`S YOUNGER SISTER: It is amazing to understand that there are so many people that know this exact same thing in
their own families, just being educated is very good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S MOTHER: I am so glad that my girls and I were able to do this together, and that we could be just be in support
and encouragement to each other to be able to gain more information about this important topic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. All right. But, first of all, yes get more information out there o people feel comfortable coming to treatment, and treatment for
childhood sexual abuse can take years. It is not about getting up and smiling in front of a group and going, "Hey, I am all better now." That is
exactly anathema to what you need, in fact.
In the case of Josh Duggar, he recently confessed that he cheated on his wife. He had two Ashley Madison accounts. He admitted to porn
addiction, which by the way, like I was saying when this all came to light, that guy is sick and deserves treatment.
But, he is not even able to get the treatment, because they are so busy praying away the problems. He was not mentioned in this special at
all. He has serious problems. And my understanding, Mike, is that it is some sort of faith based program.
CATHERWOOD: Fait based recovery.
PINSKY: Which could be good, right? I mean faith based elements can be important, but it cannot supplant the treatment. This kid needs a lot,
a lot of ongoing sustained treatment. I hope one day he is the spokesperson for recovery from sex addiction, but right, now I am doubtful.
And, by the way, he allowed his two sisters to get up there and defend him. That to me is the part that has me just bent. You let the victims
defend you. All the while you are screwing around on Ashley Madison.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
A reminder everybody, we are on SnapChat. Please join us there. Vanessa, stop laughing at me. It is DrDrewHLN. That is the site. DVR us,
then you can watch us anytime. Thank you audience. Thanks, panel. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.
END
