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Kentucky Clerk to go Free; Huckabee Visits Davis. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 08, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:19] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Great to be with you on this Tuesday.

A lot to talk about this afternoon, including our breaking story. I mean look at these live pictures, Grayson, Kentucky. Moments ago, a federal judge ordered the release of Kim Davis. Kim Davis. You know her name. She is the Kentucky county - in Rowan County, Kentucky, the clerk who went to jail a couple of days ago for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses. And she has been in this detention center behind bars for the last six days citing her Apostolic Christian faith for her refusal to conduct a key function of her elected office. Again, elected office.

This comes on the same day, not just one but two Republican presidential candidates, Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee, are there in Grayson visiting Davis at the Carter County Detention Center. In fact, Huckabee is in there right now with his wife Janet.

First, let me begin with Martin Savidge, who is there outside that jail in Grayson, Kentucky.

And, Martin, just to be crystal clear, I mean a lot of moving parts right now. The judge has ordered her release. She has yet to walk out of that detention center, correct?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Correct. In fact, there was some concern that maybe she would be walking out at the very time that Mike Huckabee would be walking in. That's not going to happen. Instead, we know that the candidate is inside and meeting with her right now.

The next question is, will they come out together? Will she come out on her own? And will she speak? And then, what is it she is going to say because keep in mind the judge has said that she can go free but he has also ordered that she cannot in any way interfere with the licensing process, marriage license going to same-sex couples. And that is something her attorney says she hasn't changed her mind on that one. She is totally opposed to her name appearing on those marriage license and they hint that she will go back to doing what she did before, which is not issuing them and then we're right back to where we were before with the judge issuing a possible contempt order. So it is one of those where you're just not really certain what the

next few minutes are going to bring. But for this crowd, they have gathered, they are waiting, and the news should come out any moment soon, according to Kim Davis' attorneys.

BALDWIN: This is one of those days, Martin. You and I will watch this play out on live television together, you and everyone who's watching.

Let me just ask you, though, if we know that the judge has ordered her release, does that mean that she would have agreed to any kind of condition to then get out of the detention center as it's related to, you know, issuing same-sex marriage licenses or this was an order, she said OK, and she's going to leave?

SAVIDGE: Well, we don't know what she has said just yet. We do know through her attorneys that there were no sort of conditions that were set.

BALDWIN: OK.

SAVIDGE: It was, instead, that David Bunning, the federal judge, said these licenses were now being released, thereby she could come out, but she better not interfere.

BALDWIN: Martin Savidge, stand by. We'll come back to you outside of the Carter County Detention Center.

Listen, there are all kinds of twists and turns in this one, legally speaking, so let's get some analysis. I have Harvard Law Professor Noah Feldman with me. Also just joining me on set, legal analyst Paul Callan. And in the wings, HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

So first, professor, to you there in Cambridge, let me just read something. This is what I have. This is part of a transcript from Kim Davis' attorney saying her release will not compromise her conscience. It doesn't give any more resolution to this case than what happened last Thursday. We've asked for a simple solution, get her name and her authority off the certificate. The judge could order that. Kim Davis will not compromise her conscience over this issue. Does this mean when she walks out of this detention center and presumably goes back to work, we're back to where we started?

PROFESSOR NOAH FELDMAN, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Not literally, because when she first went into jail, nobody was issuing the marriage licenses. Now the licenses are, in fact, being issued. So as long as Davis doesn't take her name off or take other steps to interfere with the licenses being issued, she's going to be free. If, on the other hand, she does insist on taking her name off or in some way try to render the licenses invalid, then the judge left plenty of room to putting her back where she was.

BALDWIN: OK. So that's the big if, right, we don't know if she would interfere. We know that she has not wanted to sign off on them in the past, thus being held in contempt of court, thus being held in jail, and now she's being released. Paul Callan, to you, would she have - I mean Martin Savidge said, in

order to be - to agree to be released that she didn't - there were no conditions upon this release. So like lift the veil. What would have been discussed for her to walk out of those front doors any minute now?

[14:05:08] PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I'm a little shocked that the judge did this -

BALDWIN: You are?

CALLAN: Because he was tough with his initial order. And usually when somebody is held in contempt for failure to comply with a court order, they are called back into court and they are asked, are you now willing to comply with the court order? We haven't heard that. And, by the way, she's the clerk.

BALDWIN: But does that mean the conversation didn't happen or we just don't know about it?

CALLAN: Well, the conversation could have happened behind closed doors. We may hear about it now. And there is one conversation that did take place. There were attorneys representing five of the deputy clerks. All of those attorneys said the deputy clerks were willing to issue marriage certificates to same-sex couples.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right.

CALLAN: However, what happens now when the boss, Kim Davis, comes back and says, I order you not to issue those certificates. We don't know whether she's agreed to change her tune on this.

BALDWIN: Right, and that was precisely Noah - Noah's point.

Let me ask you all to stand by.

Let me bring in a new voice here, Alice Stewart. She's the communications director for Mike Huckabee's presidential campaign. And Alice is joining me now amidst everyone there.

So, Alice, thank you so much for coming on. I understand Governor Huckabee, his wife Janet, they've now gone inside to meet with Kim Davis before she's released. I'm wondering, will his advice to her remain the same now that we know she'll be - she'll be walking out those front doors?

ALICE STEWART, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, HUCKABEE FOR PRESIDENT: Well, his conversations with her from the very beginning have been words of support. Back when the incident first came out in her office, he called her shortly after that and said he stands behind her and he's proud of her courage and bravery and he said, quite frankly, you have a lot more conviction than many of the politicians in Washington. And what he's here for today is to continue to show his support.

And this town here in Grayson is about 4,000 people. It's at least doubled. On the way in here today, people were lining the streets, rushing to the jail to stand in support for Miss Davis. And this is a good day for someone who stood firm on their religious faith and was willing to pay the price by going to jail and didn't - didn't waver and didn't stand back on her religious convictions.

BALDWIN: Do you know if Governor Huckabee will say to her, presumably, you know, when she goes back to the Rowan County court clerk's office and if she indeed, you know, fulfills one of her duties, which is issuing marriage license, which would - you know, same-sex marriage licenses would fall under that umbrella, do you know if she will comply with that or not?

STEWART: His, as I said, his advice to her and his words of support for her from the very beginning were of standing firm and showing that he supports her and is proud of her conviction. He said that before she was in court last week and the day that this announcement for her to be jailed happened, within eight hours we had someone on the ground here in Grayson to help put this rally together to show support for her. And why would he encourage her to change her mind now? She has stood firm on her religious faith, as all of these people out here are coming out here to show their support. Now more than ever is a time for people to stand firm on their religious conviction. And he has said all along, you need to stand firm on religious freedom and not waiver one inch, because this is a very, very critical issue and that what's he's telling her - he's telling her shortly (ph).

BALDWIN: Just so I'm clear, Alice, when you say stand firm, just so I'm crystal clear, when you say stand firm, that means Governor Huckabee would support Kim Davis if she continues to stand by her convictions and defy the law?

STEWART: He absolutely would. And he has said he would trade places with her in a heartbeat if that's what needed to be done to show that he stands with her.

BALDWIN: OK.

STEWART: And he does not want her to waiver one inch in standing firm on her religious convictions.

BALDWIN: Let me just point out for our viewers, you're seeing a lot of people obviously in front of this Carter County Detention Center. We're watching and waiting to see Kim Davis presumably walk out those front doors, perhaps even with Governor Huckabee and his wife.

Also in the crowd we saw a shot of him a half second ago, Senator Ted Cruz, another 2016 Republican presidential contender. He is there supporter her as well.

Alice, I just have to ask, you know, I know you said you had a team down there on the ground in Grayson within hours of all of this. Would Governor Huckabee be in, you know, inside that Carter County Detention Center if he were not trying to galvanize the base if he were not running for president of the United States?

STEWART: Governor Huckabee is a man of strong faith and strong conviction. He would be there with her regardless of what situation he was in personally and professionally. He is someone that always stands behind someone who stands for religious faith and standing firm against judicial tyranny.

Brooke, I grew up in Atlanta, not far from you, and I learned in Civics 101, there is a separation in government, three different branches of government. One doesn't have any more power than the other. We have checks and balances in this government. And for one branch to have more authority than the other is not the way this country was founded. And more importantly is to make sure that we recognize a separation of powers in our government and also never waiver on our religious freedom. And that is exactly why Governor Huckabee is here today.

[14:10:15] BALDWIN: Alice, I just mentioned Ted Cruz. I mean there is a big divide among Republicans on this very issue. Someone else who would like to be president, Governor Kasich, Ohio, he says Kim Davis needs to follow the law. That the bigger problem actually he has said is that this is turning, you know, younger folks off from Christianity. And I'm just wondering, how would Governor Huckabee react to that, to fellow Republicans who completely disagree with his stance on this?

STEWART: Well, he has never let anyone else influence where he stands or what he believes. He is, I said, a man of strong faith and conviction and is not easily swayed by political conviction as to where his faith is. And that's exactly why he was with Kim Davis from the very beginning, the day that this ruling was handed down, and right now. And he is going to stand with her and show all of these people - as we were coming into town, people were waving signs and signs of standing firm on religious freedom and these people are behind her just as much as Governor Huckabee is.

BALDWIN: When Governor Huckabee is standing on that stage next, you know, Wednesday night for our big Republican presidential debate and he's standing and Governor Kasich is, you know, giving his opinion on this, how exactly will Governor Huckabee respond on that stage?

STEWART: He, as I said, Brooke, he is never influenced by what the guy beside him or on either side of him says. He is firm. It's - a big difference he has than a lot of these people, he has always been on the same side of each of these issues that we'll be discussing next week in the debate, whether it's marriage or life or religious liberties, he's been on the same side of each of these issues and nothing that any of the other candidates is going to say or do is going to change that.

BALDWIN: Alice Stewart, thank you so much for your time, in Grayson, Kentucky.

We are rolling with it, folks. We are watching and waiting to see the Rowan County clerk, Kim Davis, who has been behind bars in that building for the last couple of days because she was put in contempt of court by this judge there, essentially, you know, for defying the Supreme Court ruling back in June that states must recognize same-sex marriages. She's about to be released, as per this judge's order. Rolling with the breaking news on this Tuesday afternoon. Do not miss a beat.

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[14:16:51] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN breaking news. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Live pictures, Grayson, Kentucky. We are expecting any minute now for the Rowan County court clerk, Kim Davis, to be released from this detention center. As we heard from our correspondent in the thick of this moments ago, Martin Savidge, he was saying that Kim Davis very well may end up back inside this detention center behind bars because perhaps, you know, she will stand by her conviction that she does not want her home county, Rowan County, to issue same-sex marriage license with her name or her office's name on them. By the way, her deputy clerks have been doing such. So this office has been in compliance with the law for the past couple of days.

Let me play some sound. This is Kim Davis' attorney moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAT STAVER, ATTORNEY FOR KIM DAVIS: It doesn't give any more resolution to this case than what happened last Thursday. We've asked for a simple solution, get her name and authority off the certificate. The judge should order that. Kim Davis will not compromise her conscience over this issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Davis' legal team has asked Kentucky's Democratic governor, Steve Beshear, to grant her a specific religious accommodation by removing her name and removing her title from marriage license issued in her county.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER GANNAM, ATTORNEY FOR JAILED CLERK: Well, it's his duty under Kentucky law to accommodate the sincere religious beliefs of all persons, including elected officials. Kentucky's Religious Freedom Restoration Act make it clear that all persons have the right to act or not act according to their religious beliefs. Their - she has the highest respect for the law and what she's doing now is not in defiance, it's simply requesting a reasonable accommodation, which the governor has the power to give.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The governor's office says this issue is now between Kim Davis and the courts.

I have Harvard Law Professor Noah Feldman back with us. Also CNN legal analyst Paul Callan and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson. And Martin Savidge, again, our correspondent there in Grayson, Kentucky, he is standing by as well.

Again, as we watch and wait for the next couple of steps. It's anyone's guess if we see Kim Davis walk out of the front doors there. Perhaps even along with Governor Mike Huckabee and his wife Janet who, by the way, are meeting with her inside.

Noah, to you, let's just back up a half second. If you have this judge who is saying she will be released from this detention center, why did he grant this release? Was it simply because her office, the Rowan County Clerk Office, because of these deputy clerks, because they have been issuing same-sex licenses, thus they are in compliance with the law, thus she can walk out of there? Is that why?

FELDMAN: Legally, that's certainly correct. That's the judge's justification for what he did. People are getting marriage, and that means the law is being followed. It doesn't matter what she personally says about it.

On the other hand, practically, it's an easy interpretation to say that the judge is worried about making a martyr of Davis. He doesn't want her to be constantly featured on national television. He doesn't want candidates for president appearing and taking advantage of his image all around his courtroom. And so presumably one of the practical reasons that he released her is to make the story go away as long as people are actually getting married and the law is actually being fulfilled.

[14:20:04] BALDWIN: But that story won't go away if she goes back to work and she's the boss over these deputy clerks, correct? So could she, in her own right, say to these who work below her, listen, this is how I feel. It is against my religious conviction to hand out these marriage licenses to same-sex couples, therefore I don't want you to do it because I'm standing my ground and I'm not doing it either?

FELDMAN: Well, if she tells them not to do it, they have two choices, they can listen to her, in which case she's probably going to go back to jail and she'll have to deal with the consequences of that, and the other option, of course, they have is to disobey her, and then the question is, would she fire them for doing it? And if she did want to fire them, what grounds would she have for firing them? After all she says she's standing on her religious conscience. What if they say, well, my conscience is to follow the law, so I'm going to do my job. I think she'd be in a much worse position under those circumstances. So if I were advising one of her deputy clerks, I would say no matter what she tells you, keep on issuing those licenses and challenge her and dare her to fire you.

BALDWIN: This is an extraordinary story. Joey Jackson and Paul Callan, I'm turning to you. It makes your head spin just a little bit -

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BALDWIN: When you're following all of this. But, Joey, we heard - again, I go back to what her attorney said just a little while ago that was at CNN, that she will not compromise her conscience.

JACKSON: Well, an individual, Brooke, does not in any way, shape or form in this county have to compromise their conscience at all. Let's be clear about that. However, this is not her individual office. It's a public office. And so if she doesn't want to compromise her individual religious beliefs, whatever they may be, and we all need to respect each other's -

BALDWIN: Yes.

JACKSON: The - then the issue would be, remove yourself from the office.

Two underlying principles, Brooke, very important here. Number one, no individual is above the office they hold. That's the first concept. And you swear when you take that office and accept the office to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And let's be clear, laws change constantly. They're modified. They're amended. Laws are passed. When you step into that position, it's not about you as an individual, it's about you acting on behalf of the public.

Number two, Brooke, we need uniformity -

BALDWIN: What about - let me just challenge you -

JACKSON: Sure.

BALDWIN: Thinking of - not that I can crawl inside her brain, but if, you know, she, obviously, opposes same-sex marriages and when you look specifically at the state of Kentucky, the majority of people in Kentucky oppose same-sex marriage, which obviously is in contrast with the majority of Americans and in contrast what the Supreme Court ruled in June.

JACKSON: And here's the answer. Article 6, clause 2 of the United States Constitution, it's the supremacy clause. And what that clause says is that the federal law supersedes any state law. When the United States Supreme Court gets together and they act, no matter what they do - it may be a 5-4 decision, it may be an 8-1 decision, that's no matter.

BALDWIN: That is the law of the land.

JACKSON: The reality is, it's the law of the land. And so whatever your respective state law is, it's not because the Supreme Court says it's not. And that leads to the second point I was making, Brooke, and that is, you need uniformity in law. Just imagine the lawlessness of this country that's founded upon democracy and democratic principles. If you have someone in Kentucky that said, I don't like what the Supreme Court says. Someone in New York says, don't like it too much. Someone in Georgia says, I'm going to do it my way. You need that uniformity. And as a result of that, this is where we're left, and that's the rally we see.

BALDWIN: Paul, I promise I have more for you. We have to get another quick break in. But you are looking at live pictures outside of this Carter County Detention Center. Crowds await Kim Davis to appear out of those doors because a judge has ordered her release after several days in jail because she did not want to issue those same-sex marriage licenses to couples in her home county. We'll be right back. More on the breaking news, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:50] BALDWIN: We will get you back to Grayson, Kentucky, in just a moment here. Crowds outside of this detention center after the Rowan County clerk, Kim Davis, who, you know, was standing by her religious conviction and going against the law would not issue same-sex marriage licenses, thus she was thrown in jail. The judge has now issued her release. So we're watching, waiting for her. Stand by for that.

Now to this, though, the unfolding human crisis in Europe. And CNN is right there. After days trapped inside of a holding camp, hundreds of refugees rushing police lines in Hungary running for their lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back! Go back! Go back!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The camp sits along the border that separates Hungary and Serbia and CNN's cameras were there, they were rolling, when men and women and children just pushed past the officers and broke free. Clashes erupted. Police pepper sprayed a number of those refugees but they were determined to escape. And now spilling into the European Union, you see the route they are taking to get there. Parents carried children on their shoulders as they ran across open corn and sunflower fields. The police, not far behind them. At least half of those who ran were eventually stopped by authorities. And CNN's senior international correspondent Arwa Damon and crew were there on the ground when the refugees decided to break away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're running now with these migrants and refugees who just broke out of the holding area right along the border with Serbia. The police are literally right behind them. CNN. The police are literally right behind them and in front, trying to bring them under control. There are hundreds of them that staged this breakout because they were fed up at the conditions they were being held in.

[14:29:57] They couldn't take it anymore. Young, old, men, parents with families, all breaking through and now also being pursued by the police force through this corn field.