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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Officers to be Tried in Baltimore; Trump Surges in New Poll; Slager Bond Hearing. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 10, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

I want to begin this hour in Baltimore where a judge has ruled that the trials of those six police officers accused in the death of Freddie Gray are staying right where they were first planned, Baltimore. They are not moving to another venue. The defense attorneys said that they're worried that they can't find impartial jurors in a city that's been just racked with stress over a young man's fatal injuries in the back of a police van. There were violent protests that followed, covered widely all over the news. But in his decision to reject that request for a change of venue, at least for now anyway, the judge, Barry Williams, said this. And I'm going to quote him directly. "The citizens of Baltimore are not monolithic. They can think for themselves."

Joining me now is the attorney for Freddie Gray's family. His name is Billy Murphy. He's been a frequent appearance on this program.

Mr. Murphy, thank you so much for being with me today.

I just want to get your reaction to the judge's decision not too long ago.

BILLY MURPHY, ATTORNEY FOR GRAY'S FAMILY: Well, it was the right thing for the right reasons and it's a victory for Baltimore, it's a victory for justice. And this is two victories in a row for Freddie Gray and his memory, yesterday's victory and today's ruling. And so we're quite pleased. And the judge followed the correct legal standard. He said, let's see if we can pick a fair and impartial jury before we start presuming things about the impact of the publicity on this town. And, of course, that's what's done all over the country. That is the mainstream way to handle high-profile cases. So it was a great day for justice.

BANFIELD: So, Billy, I want to get you to put on another hat, and it's a hat that you have worn for so many years of your career, and that is a defense attorney's hat, who has a client who's sitting in the same situation as those six men and women who are going to be tried in that city. There's a lot that went into this. I mean, think about it alone, the settlement that your client, Freddie Gray's family, have just accepted, $6.4 million, before we even get to the criminal process. That alone should have given you reason to be concerned about the fairness for those defendants. As a defense attorney, do you agree with that?

MURPHY: Yes, but I don't agree it should have been removed as a former judge. So I've worn that hat as well. And I think the proposition is very, very simple. Is it possible, if you bring in a few hundred people, that you're going to find 12 people, not who haven't been exposed to the publicity, but who say, I don't care about the publicity. I want to see what the evidence is and I will base my verdict solely on that. And it would be a blow to the collective intelligence of Baltimore to say, no, we can't find those 12. That's just absurd.

Now, let's back up a little bit. Baltimore is not unlike Boston during the aftermath of the bombing where they were able to pick a fair and impartial jury. It isn't unlike - it is not unlike the cases that I've had. I had a case called Charles Hopkins where my client attempted to assassinate mayor and then former Governor Schaefer (ph) and he killed two city council people and went on trial for murder. The publicity was as - at least as intense in Baltimore as for this case.

BANFIELD: OK.

MURPHY: And we were able to get a fair and impartial jury and I won. Now, the (INAUDIBLE) case.

BANFIELD: Now, so I'm going to - I'm going to throw a few more things at you, though, sir.

MURPHY: Same thing.

BANFIELD: I want to do a few more things with you here because you do wear these hats, as a defense attorney and now I'm going to call you Judge Murphy. As Judge Murphy, let's now -

MURPHY: No, don't do that. That costs - that costs me money. That costs me money. Don't call me Judge Murphy.

BANFIELD: You deserve the cred for the work you've had and the career you've had. But, Judge Murphy, honestly, I need to put these four issues in front of you. We just talked about the settlement, which was pretty remarkable. Then you have the actual coverage of those riots. That's the jury pool. That's Baltimore. Many of those participants might actually get jury duty notices. Then you have the intense publicity, which sometimes is the only reason you get the venue changes. And then on top of that, you've got the state's attorney going on the steps of the war memorial and saying the words "no justice, no peace." I've heard your calls and I will answer them. All of those things must, as a man who appreciates American jurisprudence, give you a slight pause for the fairness of the process for these six.

MURPHY: I don't see anything unfair about the ruling at all. And that's beside the point. I'll tell you what -

BANFIELD: No, no, I didn't ask that. No, no, make no mistake, judge, I'm asking you about the pause that it gives you.

MURPHY: I'll tell you what, as a defense lawyer, as - BANFIELD: Does it just give you pause as a person who has spent so many years in the business of defense?

MURPHY: No, not at all. Not at all because I know how venue motions work. It's rare that you get a venue change motion. Absolutely rare. It's rare under the most extraordinary circumstances.

[12:05:05] BANFIELD: Casey Anthony got it. Casey Anthony got it and that was extraordinary like this is extraordinary.

MURPHY: Name - name me one more. Name - name me - name me one more. You can't.

BANFIELD: Oh, Lord, there - I mean there's just so many, sure.

MURPHY: So -

BANFIELD: I mean there were - there was the Florida case of the young girls who were picked up and murdered. Those were venue changes as well. You know as well as I do, venue changes are significant and they do happen when people like me have stories like this all throughout our newscast for months on end.

MURPHY: Well, you were able to name some, so, so much for that. But they're rare. They're rare. You rarely see them.

BANFIELD: So I have a feeling -

MURPHY: So as a former defense lawyer, look, I have to ask - I have to ask for them. I think it's the right thing to do to ask. I think it's the right thing to do to make the argument. But the argument usually fails. And it failed here.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you, Billy, how is Freddie Gray's family doing? They are, you know, they are participants in a process they never asked to be in, they didn't want to be in, and they are suffering. How are they doing, especially in light of yesterday's settlement?

MURPHY: Well, it's up and down for them. Yesterday was up. Today is probably going to be up. But it's been down more often than it's been up because it's hard to lose a child. It's hard. I mean, it's hard to even put yourself in somebody's shoes who's lost a child. Somebody in whom you've invested 20-some-odd years of your life raising. I mean that's - that's hard. So she's having a rough time. She really is.

BANFIELD: I - and I can only imagine.

MURPHY: The sisters are having a rough time.

BANFIELD: I can imagine it's only going to get harder. They have six trials, six separate trials that they're going to have to withstand.

Billy, I hope we get another chance to speak. I admire your work so greatly. And I always love having a conversation with you. Thanks for being on today.

MURPHY: Well, thank you very much. And I'm glad that you bested me on this one. Sometimes you've got to be wrong and today was -

BANFIELD: I didn't best you. I tried. I tried.

MURPHY: Today I was wrong.

BANFIELD: Remember, I'm not a lawyer, OK, so I'm really not suited for this. You've got me by a mile.

MURPHY: Oh, you're doing a great job - you're doing a great job imitating one, I'll tell you that.

BANFIELD: Good to have you. Well, I play one on TV. Thank you, Billy.

MURPHY: If you - if you hadn't said it - look, look, if you hadn't said it, nobody would have believed it.

BANFIELD: I've got to be honest, it's my full disclaimer every day. I'll see you again and I know it's going to happen again, we're going to have probably more motion changes for venue, so I hope we have this conversation again. Thanks, Billy.

MURPHY: Excellent .Excellent.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, we have another big story we've been covering. It is the Donald Trump saga. He spoke with CNN today and, guess what, more insults against his rivals. Surprise! Also, guess what, another big jump in the latest polls in his favor. Surprise! So where do you think he stands at this point? How big a jump was it? And is there anything that can threaten his momentum? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:11:23] BANFIELD: Five months before the Iowa caucuses, six days before the CNN Republican debate, and Donald Trump is surging in CNN's poll and he's also slamming his rivals on CNN's airwaves. And before you say, so what's new with that, Ashleigh, wait, it's actually exciting. It is news. See for yourself. We've got the new nationwide CNN/ORC poll conducted this week and Donald Trump becomes the first GOP candidate in the very crowded field to cross against that 30 percent mark. Upsy (ph) and over. And, by the way, in case you're wondering how much upsy, it's an eight-point jump from our poll that we did in August.

But we also asked the question who Republican voters consider most likely to win that nomination and Trump's numbers here are even bigger, 51 percent now expect Trump to carry the party's banner in the general election. And you can just compare that to the midsummer numbers and Trump's rise, along with Ben Carson I might add, is even more clear, at the apparent expense of, you guessed it, Jeb Bush and especially Scott Walker. Wow.

So that's what the voters think, this week anyway. Trump, as you know, has strong opinions too, particularly about opponents who go after him. This morning on CNN's "New Day," the front-runner lashed out at Ben Carson after Ben Carson said that he is a man of faith and that he, quote, "doesn't get that impression" about Donald Trump. Listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): I've known Ben Carson, of him, for a long time. I never heard faith was a big thing until just recently when he started running.

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": He's a Seventh Day Adventist. I mean it's - it's something he talks about a lot.

TRUMP: So I don't know about Ben Carson's faith. And all of a sudden he becomes this great religious figure. I don't think he's a great religious figure. And I saw him yesterday quoting something and he was quoting on humility and it looked like he had just memorized it about two minutes before he made the quote. So, you know, don't tell me about Ben Carson.

CUOMO: Well, but Ben Carson's coming at you too. He says -

TRUMP: Now, Carson is another one, he's starting to hit me. So I hit back. I only hit back when I get hit. I'm great counterpuncher.

CUOMO: I know. Let me as you -

TRUMP: But Ben Carson, you're talking about his faith. Excuse me, Chris -

CUOMO: Please.

TRUMP: Go back and look at his past. Go back and look at his views on abortion and see where he stands. You talk about abortion. I mean go back and look at his views on abortion where - now all of a sudden he gets on very low key. I mean, frankly, he looks like - he makes Bush look like the Energizer Bunny.

CUOMO: Oooh.

TRUMP: He's very low key. He's got a lot of donors.

CUOMO: Strong words.

TRUMP: A lot of people pushing him. But Ben Carson, you look at his faith, and I think you're not going to find so much. And you look at his views on abortion, which were horrendous, and that's, I think, why I'm leading with all of the evangelicals. I'm, as you know in your poll, number one. I'm leading Ben Carson by a lot. You know, you said, oh, Ben Carson's surging. Well, I'm almost double his numbers. So, you know, you've got to remember that.

CUOMO: Oh, absolutely. But I'm saying he came out of nowhere is all I'm saying. He's not a big celebrity. You know, people didn't know about him. He doesn't get anywhere near the attention that you get.

TRUMP: Well, I only bring this up, Chris, very - Chris, I only bring it up because I saw him hitting me yesterday. He's questioning my faith. CUOMO: Let me ask you something. He definitely is questioning your

faith.

TRUMP: I happen to be a great believer in God, a great believer in the Bible.

CUOMO: He's definitely questioning your faith.

TRUMP: Who's he - Chris, who is he to question my faith when I am - you know, I mean he doesn't even know me. I met him a few times, but I don't know Ben Carson. He was a doctor, perhaps, you know, an OK doctor, by the way. You can check that out, too. We - we're not talking about a great - he was an OK doctor.

CUOMO: He - he was a - I don't know about OK doctor. You know, he was the first man to separate conjoined twins, you know.

TRUMP: He was just fine. Wait a minute, he was just fine. And how, because he's a doctor and he hired one nurse he's going to end up being the president of the United States?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I've got to say, he is a good doctor. I think we should just settle that now. He's a great doctor. But Trump went on to answer his own question, predicting that Carson won't be the next president of the United States.

[12:15:10] I want to hear from an expert on this, CNN's political director, the guy who knows it all, David Chalian is joining me live on the set.

OK, first things first, they went all in on Carson on that moment we just played, but there was so much more that developed in the last 24 hours. He had some very pointed words about Carly Fiorina, very personal, very offensive, and yet instead of doubling down when he - I mean he doubled down on the stuff where he pisses people off, he backed away on it and tried to couch it. I'm surprised when it comes to women that he doesn't just double down what he says, he gets around it.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: He contextualizes it for himself as he sees fit. He tries to put his spin on it. So he told "Rolling Stone" magazine he - he made these comments in "Rolling Stone" magazine about Carly Fiorina's face, and is that a face that could be president.

BANFIELD: Look at that face.

CHALIAN: I mean, look at that face.

BANFIELD: Who's going to vote for that face?

CHALIAN: But this morning, with Chris on "New Day" he said, I wasn't talking about her physical looks when I referred to her face, I was referring to her persona. BANFIELD: But this is crap because every time he has said something

offensive he's said, yes, I said it. That's my thing. I say what I mean. I'm not like other politicians. But when it comes to women like Megyn Kelly or Carly Fiorina or anybody else that he's offended in a female way, he does dance around it and becomes very much like every politician out there with double speak.

CHALIAN: I don't know if it's like every other politician because I -

BANFIELD: Lots of other politicians who employ double speak on a regular basis.

CHALIAN: But I don't think you - I don't think you see him pulling his punches. I think when he's on that stage with Carly Fiorina next week at the debate, he will absolutely, if she takes it to him, give it right back. I don't think we've seen him afraid to take on Carly Fiorina.

BANFIELD: Talk to me a little bit about the issues because, you know, a lot of people have said, you know, these people who are answering these polls, they don't know what they're talking about. Well, they were asked specifically, what do you like about Trump? Do you like, you know, his experience, his position on the issues, do you just dislike the others? And it's a little surprising.

CHALIAN: It's the issues.

BANFIELD: It's the issues.

CHALIAN: I mean that is what people are saying. And, honestly, it's also one very specific issue, immigration, the issue of illegal immigration. It is a majority of Republicans say that is the most important issue and by far the Republican voters who say that are Donald Trump supporters. That is what has propelled him to this place and, obviously, his approach, his non-political style is what is keeping him there.

But can I tell you that I think one of the most interesting findings in this poll is satisfaction if indeed Donald Trump is the nominee. Take a look at these numbers. We asked Republicans, if Donald Trump is the nominee, would you be satisfied with him as the nominee? Thirty- two percent say no, 67 percent say yes. Those are not great numbers. A third of the Republican party would be dissatisfied with their nominee if indeed it's Donald Trump. But when you compare it to Jeb Bush, Ashleigh, take a look at this.

BANFIELD: Jeb Bush. Those numbers don't look good for Jeb.

CHALIAN: This is the worst statistic for Jeb Bush in our poll.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CHALIAN: Forty-seven percent of Republicans say they would not be satisfied with him as the nominee. That is a big hurdle. That means Jeb Bush potentially right now is just not the man for this moment in the Republican Party. BANFIELD: It's super fun to nerd out on polls right now. In a way,

though, it's never been this fun to nerd out on polls.

CHALIAN: Well, because I think we're seeing a totally different moment in time right now -

BANFIELD: Yes.

CHALIAN: As the Republican Party sorts itself out.

BANFIELD: David Chalian, you're going to be back, I hope.

CHALIAN: Yes. Thanks.

BANFIELD: Thank. Good to see you. Thank you.

And, by the way, on the Democratic side, a new Quinnipiac University poll shows that presidential candidate Bernie Sanders is now leading Hillary Clinton, at least in Iowa. CNN's Wolf Blitzer is going to speak with the senator. Bernie Sanders is coming up next hour right here on CNN.

And, of course, stay with CNN because tonight is the big Republican debate reveal. At 8:00 p.m. we're going to learn which of all of those candidates made the cut and will be on that stage. The Republican debate, of course, airs on CNN next Wednesday, 6:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:22:13] BANFIELD: In South Carolina, the case of an ex-police officer charged with the murder of an unarmed black man is back in the spotlight today. The attorneys for Michael Slager are going to fight to get him bond at a hearing that begins a little less than two hours from now. Bystander video, you'll remember it, showed Michael Slager shooting Walter Scott in the back after this traffic stop. You see the traffic stop on the video. You don't see what happened in the middle. Then you see the shooting in the back.

So the officer has said that in that middle piece that we don't see, Walter Scott grabbed his Taser during a scuffle and pointed it at him. And Slager's attorney told NBC News, an enhanced version of that bystander video shows his client is telling the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY SAVAGE, MICHAEL SLAGER'S ATTORNEY: They were both on the ground. It wasn't just firing a shot in the distance. It was a close-in, physical confrontation.

MICHAEL SLAGER: Just that three seconds of that video that came out and everybody thought I was racist and I just got out of my car and just shot him in the back for no reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BANFIELD: In the meantime, some new court documents that were filed earlier this week show that Walter Scott did, indeed, have trace, trace amounts of cocaine in his system when he was killed.

Joining me to discuss this, CNN's Alina Machado, who's reporting live from the scene, and also CNN's legal analyst Paul Callan.

First to you, Alina. the hearing that's coming up, what are we expecting in terms of players who are going to show up in this courtroom? Will Michael Slager make that journey from the cell where he's been held into the courtroom? What - what are we expecting?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, our understanding is that Michael Slager will actually appear via video conference, but we'll have to wait and see what, in fact, happens. As you heard, Michael Slager's attorney says there is much more to this story beyond what you see in that disturbing video that was shot by that witness. They also say their client has been held in solitary confinement without bond since his arrest in April and they are, of course, hoping to change that this afternoon.

Now, Slager was fired within days of the shooting shortly after the video surfaced and was charged with Scott's murder. This week, in documents filed by the defense, we've gotten a better sense of some of the key points they will make as they argue for a bond this afternoon. Those documents include a toxicology report that shows that Walter Scott had traces of cocaine and alcohol in his system, an analysis of blood found on Slager's clothing, several statements that Slager gave shortly after the shooting in which he claimed that Scott took his Taser and pointed it at the officer during the scuffle, and there's also data from Slager's Taser showing it was fired six times in 67 seconds. The bottom line, Slager says, he felt his life was in danger and that is why he shot at Scott.

[12:25:10] Now, Scott's family has told us they are very upset by the accusations that have surfaced. They also believe the bystander video speaks for itself. Here's what Scott's brother said on CNN tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY SCOTT, WALTER SCOTT'S BROTHER: Well, I don't know what more could be to the story and if he had drugs in his system, I don't see what difference that made in him running away, unarmed, and being gunned down the way that he was gunned down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACHADO: Now, we know the Scott family is planning to be in court today. They've also said they will address the media following the bond hearing, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Alina Machado. And I should correct, live in Miami. Thank you for that.

Paul Callan, well, we just heard Anthony Scott say, and this is the grieving brother, this family has been nothing short of gracious in the way they have handled themselves in the press given the facts and circumstances they see so far. There are reports from the police, including not only two lieutenants but the police chief, they say that Officer Slager told them - again, police saying our cop told us that during the scuffle Walter Scott had taken Slager's Taser and pointed it at him. But how much weight will a judge give that given the fact that their - I mean, there's a potential conflict of interest, even when you're talking about law enforcement. There are some bad, lying cops out there at some time. How much weight would a judge actually give that in the idea of giving this person bond?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think the judge will consider it, but you have to remember, the thing the judge is looking at with a cop being charged with a very serious crime is, what is the risk that he will flee? If it's a slam dunk case and he's going to definitely get convicted of murder, a life felony in South Carolina, then he has a good motive to flee, and those are the kinds of cases where sometimes you have no bail placed. And this is what I think the real back story of this case is, because anybody who looks at that video knows this man was shot in the back as he was running away. The officer has to be in danger at the time he fires the shots. How are you in danger or -

BANFIELD: Or - or the person has to have some kind of a dangerous weapon that could hurt, kill, or injure others.

CALLAN: Other people.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CALLAN: OK. So the claim here now is morphing into, maybe the cop thought he had a gun on him and he was running in the direction of a residential neighborhood and he could have killed somebody else. He was a fleeing felon.

BANFIELD: But is a Taser - does a Taser rise to that level? If he's running with a Taser, does it rise to that level?

CALLAN: Well, no, it really doesn't.

BANFIELD: It doesn't. This is a hard - this is a hard case.

CALLAN: And so I think it's a weak argument and I think, in the end, where they're going with the defense is, that the officer acted under extreme emotional disturbance and it's not a murder. It's going to get reduced to a manslaughter. And that's really where they're looking to go with this on the defense side.

BANFIELD: Yes. I always look for the benefit of the doubt for every single defendant that comes across our desk, and this one is a struggle. This is what you call a bad set of facts. This one is a big struggle.

Paul Callan, thank you. Appreciate it.

CALLAN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And Alina Machado, thank you as well.

Coming up next, recognize this tennis star in town, in New York, for the U.S. Open? Yes, he's pretty famous. But police did not recognize him when they tackled him and cuffed him in front of his fancy hotel. The police commissioner in New York has just apologized. Will it be enough? And what happened?

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