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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Same-Sex Couple Gets License At Davis' Office; Breaking News: One Professor Killed In Campus Office In Shooting In Mississippi; Kim Davis Stands Ground On Issuing Same-Sex Licenses; Davis Urges Kentucky Governor To Intervene; Dad Charged In Hot Car Death Faces Judge. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired September 14, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:30:00] MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It seemed to go smoothly.

CARMEN WAMPLER-COLLINS, RECEIVED MARRIAGE LICENSE AT DAVIS' OFFICE: I think it's been and I was especially nervous about what kind of conflict might be between Kim Davis, you know, and hearing that deputy who had said he was going to issue regardless of what she said. And, you know, we didn't know what kind of conflict, what that would look like. But what...

SAVIDGE: It seemed to go smoothly.

WAMPLER: It did go smoothly and we heard this morning that it looks like licenses will be issued and so from that moment, I mean, it's a sort of the personal moment became more important, you know, that we were just so excited that -- and after 20 years, this is finally going to happen, you know. And yeah, it was hard, you know, this is sort of surreal. We didn't know what to expect, but really, I wasn't nervous at all by the time we were here walking in.

SAVIDGE: Did you hear the crowd? I mean, there were people who were saying things they were not -- there were oddly things being said? Does that affect you? Did you hear it?

SHANNON WAMPLER-COLLINS, RECEIVED MARRIAGE LICENSE AT DAVIS' OFFICE: Yeah, it really didn't affect me. I heard the noise in the background, but the love around me was far greater.

WAMPLER: Yeah.

SAVIDGE: And it's not just about Kim Davis. And it's not just about this day. You have waited two decades or more for this day, right? That's the point to really celebrate for you both?

COLLINS: Yeah, definitely.

WAMPLER: Yes. It's phenomenal and then it's happening here, you know, in a small town in Kentucky. I mean, I just never when we first got together, when we had our wedding, did we ever, ever expect this is a possibility. I mean, it's phenomenal.

SAVIDGE: Kim Davis was not there. I didn't see her. I didn't see her come out.

WAMPLER: She's in her office, but no, she didn't come out.

SAVIDGE: What do you think of her?

WAMPLER: You know, I think she's a woman who obviously has a lot of conviction about what she believes, but I think it's unfortunate that she's chosen to quit her beliefs, you know, between the rights of the people, of the county that she serves.

SAVIDGE: Congratulations to you both.

COLLINS: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: Good luck to you.

WAMPLER: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: It's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you. A remarkable day for many reasons and clearly, licenses are being issued and that means that the judge's order is being upheld. What does it mean for Kim Davis? I guess, we will have to watch and see. Back to you.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Martin Savidge, thank you for that. I appreciate it and that's the interesting issue with that license, is that the next area of concern? This is the license for Carmen and Shannon Wampler-Collins, but will this be the place where the legal battle next migrates to? Will someone challenge this because there were a few choice words that Kim Davis said that might be the hint of where she and her lawyers are going next?

We got that story for you and I have an update for you as well from the campus of Delta State University. They are now confirming that one person has died because of a shooting on that campus in Cleveland, Mississippi. One person killed and that campus remains under lockdown. Everyone on campus is being asked to stay inside and away from the windows. We still have no indication that whomever was pulling the trigger is finished or in custody or if they even know who it might be. Back after this.

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[12:36:23] BANFIELD: So, nobody really likes Mondays, right, got to go back to work. For Kim Davis, this was a big Monday. First day back on the job after going to jail, instead of issuing marriage certificates including same-sex marriage certificates from her county clerk's office, and when she got back, a big statement in the front stair saying, "OK, I'm not going to do this. And I'm not going to interfere with my deputies doing this but they do not have authority. This certificate does not give the authority of my office, and I don't give authority."

That might sound like, you know, good rhetoric. But those words could be very significant. I want to bring in Kim Davis' attorney Mat Staver, who's the Founder and Chairman of the Liberty Counsel. He's representing Kim as well as the couple of other colleagues. Mat, thank you for being with me. I heard what she said, and those words stuck out. They rang very loud. And I'm wondering if this whole issue of authority is where we're headed, the next frontier in this battle. Are you and your client about to wage a battle against these certificates that have been issued? Are you going to challenge them, and try to have those certificates basically denied now as illegitimate?

MAT STAVER, KIM DAVIS' ATTORNEY: You know, Kim Davis and our staff have not really had a chance to focus on that issue. We'll talk to her a little bit later about that. She was up until the wee hours of this morning and ultimately wrote a statement and made the decision. So, what we're doing right now before even get to the validity or the invalidity of these certificates is we're going to be pursuing the other appeals that are already there. We're filing our final brief on one of those appeals this week. And so, we're asking for the Court of Appeals to issue some immediate relief for Kim Davis which could effectively dissolve this case in terms of one of our complaints, one of our arguments.

We're also going to be filing another lawsuit against the governor later in this week seeking reasonable accommodation. So, we're going to be doing that first before we go any further on these certificates.

BANFIELD: I'm not going get to the reasonable accommodation in a moment because I find that a very fascinating argument as well. And I've looked this from federal statute as it sort of intersects with the RIFRA in and in the state of Kentucky as well. And we'll talk about that in a minute.

But you said you had not conferred with your client. She was up all night writing this statement. I want to read that part of it that is so significant right now. "I want the world to know, be no mistakes about it, if my deputy clerks, who do not have my authorization or authority, they don't have my authorities," there's three authorities, "to initial any licenses whatsoever."

She goes to say, "If any of them feels they have issue an unauthorized," there's four, "unauthorized license to avoid being thrown in jail, I understand their tough choice and I will take no action against them. However, any the unauthorized," there's five, "license that they issue will not have my name title or authority on it.

That's six authorities in one liner. Are you really telling me that you had nothing to being conferred nothing with your client about the issue of authority because legally speaking, the whole thing will come down to authority.

STAVER: We have talked to our client about a lot of things including that issue. What I said is we haven't talked about whether we're going to challenge the validity or the invalidity of those licenses. We were up until the wee hours of the morning with Kim Davis ourselves. And we've been with her from the very beginning since...

BANFIELD: Are you going to advise her to challenge those licenses, Mat?

STAVER: Well, you know, we're going to have to sit down and talk to her about that. Again, our main focus was going back to work this morning, issuing what was Kim Davis' statement and then continuing with these appeals and then another law suit that we'll file...

BANFIELD: But, Mat, I know you were very, very good at your job. You are a very, very smart lawyer. I've interviewed you before. I've seen your interviews with all of my colleagues, you do not fly by the seat of your pants, sir. I know that you know what you're doing. Are you going to advise your client that the next frontier is to have those licenses that have already been issued tossed out? Is that what you're going to fight next?

[12:40:16] STAVER: Well, again, we haven't really made that final decision. We do know that from the very beginning, Kim Davis has not changed her position on that when the original license was issued and that they were not under her authority. And she reiterated that this morning, and she take -- she took some other efforts here to make sure that her name and her official authority title is removed from that. Judge Bunning even said that he didn't know whether they were valid or not, and Kim Davis said this morning that she has grave doubts that they're valid.

Now, whether we will challenge that and when we will challenge that has not yet been determined, and we will have those conversations with Kim Davis but the issue of...

BANFIELD: So, you have not decided yet whether you are going to request from a judge a declaratory judgment about this?

STAVER: That's correct. We have not made that ultimate decision...

BANFIELD: Mat Staver, I appreciate you coming on with me. I have a feeling you and I are going talk again. Thank you so much for you time sir. Appreciate it.

HLN Legal Analyst and Defense Attorney Joey Jackson joins me now.

You counted them alongside me, we were watching this together, one, two, three, four, five six, I may have missed a few too because it is a long statement, would you explain to me exactly why the word authority and Kim Davis' clerks office authority is so critical in this argument as whether all those people who got same-sex marriage licenses are on thin ice.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST AND DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Very simple, why, because it's in the statute. The statute provides for an authorization statement to be issued by the county clerk when you're issuing a marriage license. It also provides for that license to be signed by the county clerk or deputy and otherwise recorded or filed.

So, the issue of authorization is important. Now, backing up one moment, the statute talks about the county clerk authorizing it, but remember, the county clerk is in office, so, to the extent that her office authorized this in her absence while she was in jail, the argument certainly could be made that the statute by implication implies that the office must authorize not the individual occupant thereof. And I think that's what an argument, that's the argument that will be made.

BANFIELD: So, if a state judge becomes involved and has to make the decision as to whether the office of the clerk is the authorizing body as opposed to the woman who's the clerk as the authorizing body, is it really just up to him or her, that judges to how they feel about it?

JACKSON: See, that's a great point because it gets into sort of Scalia interpretation, he's at Supreme Court Justice. I know he's talking about the state law. But it comes to whether or not the plain words of the statute should take precedence meaning it says the county clerk or is it by implication.

Remember this, Kim Davis occupies an office and there are two critical principles we're going to need to talk about, Ashleigh. One thing is there's no individual that's above the office itself. As an occupant of that office, you swear to duties of that office, a very important principle.

The second principle here, of course, is that at the end of the day, the federal government and federal law trumps everything. Could you imagine the lack of uniformity, the lack of consistency, what would happen any event that everyone in any different state would say, "I have individual beliefs. I want to do it my way."

And the last point, I know I said two, but the last point is this and that is at the end of the day when you look at this unbalanced and you look at it unwhole, you have to examine whether or not any single individual person can trump, can trump what she is doing for everybody else. Remember, we're talking a lot about her interest and her beliefs, what about those people who want marriage licenses, does the government have a compelling interest to tend to their needs and are their needs subservient to her individual beliefs. That's the conflict here. That's what needs to be resolved by the court.

BANFIELD: It is not simple. It's not over. But mark my word, I really do believe that we are headed to these licenses and the battle of her whether they're valid. I'm not a betting man but what would you want to wage here?

JACKSON: Well, I think, it's going to be a state court fight, not a federal court because that federal court has been loud and clear, this is state issue now, and it's going to be up to the state that has a Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

BANFIELD: Thanks Joey, I appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much.

Coming up next.

A father charged with murder, after leaving his baby boy in a hot car. He's facing the judge today and his lawyers are saying they want certain evidence out. They don't want anyone to anyone to hear it especially the jury that's chosen. And that's not all, they want to keep you out too, through our cameras. They want the media to get out.

Coming up next as well, our other big story right now breaking in the -- on the campus in Mississippi where university officials at Delta State University had confirmed that one person has been killed in a shooting on that campus.

It is under lockdown, folks and we're continuing to follow it. We're back right after this

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[12:48:33] BANFIELD: I have some very sad breaking news to bring your way because of that Delta State University active shooter situation.

We are now being told that the one person who is killed so far on campus is confirmed to have been a male professor. It was a male professor who was shot and killed. And the County Deputy Coroner has told CNN that apparently, there were two shell casings found in the professor's office, that's where the victim was at the time he was shot.

There was no gun found in the office. And the coroner says that according to the evidence obviously that's been collected as far in this active shooting situation, this shooter is still at large. Very sad to report, this male professor shot dead in his office. That is at least the toll so far at Delta State University in Cleveland, Mississippi. A campus with over 4,000 students, all of them now being told shelter inside, remain under lockdown and stay away from windows and stay inside for the foreseeable future. And apparently a shooter was spotted near a place called Jobe hall which is apparently an auditorium on this campus.

As we zoom into this campus, you can see it's a fairly large geographic footprint, but at this point, there's no indication of whether the shooter is still on campus or in the surrounding community. We'll continue to update you on this.

[12:50:01] A Georgia man charged with murder for leaving his 22 months old son to die in a hot car back in front of a judge today. That's Justin Ross Harris. And to the right of him, his attorneys. They're asking the court some pretty key things right now. They want to toss our some very important evidence in this case.

And they have some other pre-trial motions as well including a motion to get ourselves, the media, they do not want us in that suburban Atlanta courtroom. No cameras, no reporters even.

Twenty two months-old Cooper Harris was left inside his father's SUV on a hot day in June 2014. Seven hours, that baby was in the back seat. The autopsy showed that the toddler died of hyperthermia, better known as overheating. The father said this was a tragic accident and he has pleaded not guilty. CNN's Nick Valencia and CNN legal analyst, Philip Holloway are outside the camp county courthouse.

So, Nick, just walk me through how this is going in court so far. These are pretty serious motions they're asking for.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are handful of extraordinary motions being presented by the defense. I was inside the courtroom with CNN Legal Analyst Philip Holloway, more from him in just a minute.

But we essentially heard the defense lay out their claims as to why they believe the media and the public should not be allowed inside that courtroom, they said that the media has been obsessed with this case ever since it broke last year and that is now representing a clear and present danger to the fairness of this trial. They believe that they can't get an impartial jury because there's been, according to them, prejudice and bias reporting over the courts last year. And the 15 months since Justin Ross Harris was arrested, the public interest, they say, has not waned.

Inside the courtroom, we saw Justin Ross Harris shackled, showing up wearing a prison jumpsuit, Cobb county jail put on the back of that. And he was for the most part Ashleigh, pretty expressionless, pretty stoic. There were points, though, where he was looking at a monitor, photos of him and his baby 22-month old Cooper Harris were shown. He's seen to be looking intently at that.

And, of course, we have to remind our viewers that this case garnered a lot of national attention. Harris is accused of intentionally leaving his 22 months old child in a hot car he while he sexted a handful of underage girls.

Prosecutors have painted him out to be a want to be playboy who was that wanting to lead a child-free life. He's defense, though, saying that this is just simply a tragic accident and that Justin Ross Harris is not guilty, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Okay, Nick, hold on for one moment. I want to turn my attention right now to Philip as I can. Philip, I don't recall the defense attorneys in this case. And I'm trying to sort of remind myself of all the different things that happened and the flurry of the activity when the story broke. But I don't recall that they had that same feeling about the media back then, what's changed?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm sorry, Ashleigh, I'm having a hard time hearing. Say that one more time please.

BANFIELD: Have they always felt this way about the media from the get-go, did they always want the media and the public to stay out of this?

HOLLOWAY: What they've done is they've asked not only for the media, Ashleigh, but the general public at large. They don't want anybody other than parties in the case and deputy sheriff in essential courtroom personnel to be in there. That is a very, very tall order and a big ask.

Under Federal Constitutional Law, the judge must let the public in, unless they're really -- there's no other option available to the judge. She has to find any alternative means to satisfy the interest of justice, if it's all possible before she's legally authorized to close the courtroom to the public.

BANFIELD: So what's -- it's strange because I just don't feel that they thought to say -- I thought that they were quite welcoming of the media, they thought that perhaps the media might even be helpful to the case. Maybe, I'm getting my wires crossed, but it just seems like an extraordinary motion out of thin air. Am I crazy?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I think that the defense has basically taken bits and pieces of what they consider to be media attention that was negative things that they don't like. And they've asked that, that be presented to the court as evidence of basically prejudice against their client.

And the media lawyers on the other hand stood up in court, Ashleigh, and what they said, was they said, "You can't just cherry pick." There's been positive media coverage. They've alleged that the defense counsel have also used media to their own advantage in various ways.

So, the ruling is still under advisement. That particular motion is still being heard and we would expect some ruling later this afternoon.

BANFIELD: That's what I thought, I mean, I thought that they had used the media before and now that it wasn't going their way that they've, you know, switched course. But no matter what, I don't expect -- I'm sure, you don't expect that the judge is going to say, "No public in this courtroom." That is sort of Saddam (ph) style trials. We don't do that in this country.

Phil Holloway, keep us posted on what's happening in that courtroom. We look forward to some updates throughout the day and see which motions if any are passed. And then, if change of venue happens, let us know.

That's Nick Valencia and Philip Holloway doing the work for us outside the courthouse in Georgia.

I want to just get you posted up quite real quickly on what happened at Delta City. If you're just joining us, we've been following this active shooter situation throughout the show at Delta State University. It's in Cleveland, at Cleveland, Mississippi.

[12:55:10] And throughout the morning, we were hearing that there was an active shooter. And then we got confirmation just a short time ago that one fatality was in fact a male professor who was killed in his office.

Two shell cases are apparently found in that office, and no gun in the office. So it's not, as though, the coroner thinks this was a suicide. In fact, the thought here is that the shooter is still on the loose.

That's the Google earth view of the campus. Apparently, the active shooter at the time that this, you know, first was alerted was spotted near a place called Jobe Hall which is an auditorium on this campus. But no one has had any reporting yet of an active shooter seen since then. But we did get this confirmation, very sad confirmation that this male professor was shot in his office.

So we're just keeping an eye on things but at the time right now, if you're watching and you're on the campus, you've probably seen the tweets, you are to stay under lockdown, stay indoors and stay away from all windows as well.

CNN's going to continue to keep you updated on this story. In the meantime, thank you so much for watching us this hour. My colleague Brianna Keilar is in for Wolf and she get started right after this quick break.

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