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Interview With Former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty; Who Won Republican Debate?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 17, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:05]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on here, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And let me just welcome you back for our final day here in Simi Valley, California, beautiful, beautiful Southern California, where the Republican Party could be considered really the biggest winner in CNN's presidential debate, because we just got the official ratings, and let me tell you, nearly 23 million of you watched the Republicans' top 11 candidates right here live on CNN at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library go toe to toe.

You made it. And we thank you for making it the most watched CNN event ever. If you are among the few who did not watch, who did not catch the contenders, we will bring you up to speed. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You had better be able to lead our country on the first day.

Not six months from now, not a year from now, on the first day in office, our president could very well confront a national security crisis. You can't predict it. Sometimes you cannot control it.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I am elected president, on the very first day in office, I will rip to shreds this catastrophic Iranian nuclear deal.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not a strategy to tear up an agreement. A strategy would be how do we confront Iran?

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Iran and Planned Parenthood.

One has something to do with the defense of the security of this nation. The other has something to do with the defense of the character of this nation.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to build a wall, a wall that works.

FIORINA: Immigration did not come up in 2016 because Mr. Trump brought it up. We have been talking about it for 25 years. BUSH: You're proud of your family, just as I am.

TRUMP: Correct.

BUSH: To subject my wife into the middle of a raucous political conversation was completely inappropriate, and I hope you apologize for that, Donald.

TRUMP: Well, I have to tell you, I hear phenomenal things. I hear your wife is a lovely woman.

BUSH: She is. She's fantastic.

TRUMP: I don't know her, and this is a total mischaracterization...

BUSH: She is absolutely the love of my life, and she's right here...

TRUMP: Good.

BUSH: And why don't you apologize to her right now?

TRUMP: No, I won't do that, because I have said nothing wrong.

I'm in favor of vaccines, do them over a longer period of time, same amount.

TAPPER: Thank you.

TRUMP: But just in -- in little sections.

TAPPER: Dr. -- Dr. Carson?

TRUMP: I think -- and I think you're going to have -- I think you're going to see a big impact on autism.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Dr. Carson, you just heard his medical take.

(LAUGHTER)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's an OK doctor.

TAPPER: Dr. Carson said campaigning is easier for him, because he's not a politician. He can just tell the truth, therefore, while politicians -- quote -- "Have their finger in the air to see and do what is politically expedient."

Governor Christie, tell Dr. Carson, is that a fair description of you?

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I know Ben wasn't talking about me. I'm sure he was talking about one of the other guys, not me.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Well, that was three hours in 90 seconds for you. You actually just caught a glimpse of one of the candidates who many believe won the whole thing. And the consensus is she showed the most command of where she stands, not just at the podium, but on policy and in personal beliefs.

And if my pronoun hasn't quite given this away, I'm talking about the former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina. She's the only woman in the race and the only one who received a comment from Donald Trump, by the way, about her looks. Right? This all goes back to that "Rolling Stone" article that she got a comment from Donald Trump about her looks during the debate. Fiorina told "CNN TODAY" that's no coincidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIORINA: It's still different for women. It's only a woman whose appearance would be talked about when running for president. Never a man.

And I think that's what women understand. That's why women understood what Donald Trump said about my face in the first place and also what he said about my face in the second place. The point is women are half this nation. Women are half the potential of this nation. But somehow we still spend a lot of time talking about women's appearance, instead of their qualifications.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is our springboard.

I have with me chief political correspondent Dana Bash, chief political analyst Gloria Borger and senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

Great to see all of you. You're such a stud. Nice job last nigh, by the way, Dana Bash.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Yes, seriously, applause for you. I'm coming back to you in a second.

But I'm turning to you, because I was watching through that the face line and Carly Fiorina and the whole Donald Trump, I think you're beautiful. And we all sort of did, ugh.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I thought it was -- look, he knew he needed to say something because his persona notion, that he was talking about a persona, was so ridiculous on the face of it, that he had to say something.

But I think the first rule of holes is stop digging and I think it was patronizing, what he said. I really didn't mean to say that you're not attractive. I meant to say you're beautiful. Every woman watching that cringed. (CROSSTALK)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: How about sorry?

BORGER: How about apologizing?

BALDWIN: But she didn't also say anything. She just looked into that camera, no thank you, no acknowledgment, stone cold.

BASH: That's all she needed to do.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: It was -- I got so many e-mails from female friends saying that was her drop the mike moment.

BALDWIN: Really?

BASH: Like, boom, that's all she needed to do. Over. Scene. Done.

BORGER: Out the door.

[15:05:00]

BALDWIN: Although, to your point, people have been talking about sexism in politics. We have done entire segments on Capitol Hill on this with you, but to your point...

BASH: Listen, there is a lot of discussion about Donald Trump's hair and Chris Christie's weight.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I am not trying to diminish it. There's no comparison, whether it's Hillary Clinton or Carly Fiorina or anybody else. It just is the way the world works, that people talk more about females' appearances.

But sometimes men give us a little bit of grist because they have hair like Donald Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: The men on the stage though didn't jump in. It would have been a perfect moment.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: And said, why -- you shouldn't have said that. That was a despicable comment. My wife is the audience, my sister, whatever.

It was I think a missed opportunity, not that there was a lot of time there, but someone could have sort of risen to the occasion.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: Men can be offended by that too. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But at least acknowledging Carly Fiorina's presence on the stage.

BORGER: Men should have been offended by it.

But I'll tell you one other thing that women get that men don't get, which is age, because people talk about Hillary Clinton's age all the time.

BALDWIN: True.

BORGER: Are we saying that Donald Trump is 69 years old? We're talking about Hillary Clinton, can she govern, will she be strong enough, vibrant enough? A lot of these guys are, if Joe Biden gets in the race, he's, what, 72. So there's a difference.

BALDWIN: It is part of the conversation.

Let me look at you, Jeff Zeleny, and ask about Marco Rubio. We haven't talked as much about him, but bottom -- everyone is saying how strong he is on foreign policy. But you were really struck by him jumping in and telling his story, the Spanish-English story.

ZELENY: I think Marco Rubio seizes on a moment in a debate better than any other candidate. He uses that to squeeze in every bit of his biographer to remind voters, the 23 million viewers, who he is.

I thought he did a very good job last night talking about that he grew up. His father was a bartender from Cuba. He's the first person in his family to speak English. I thought he was very good in the. And then he pivots to foreign policy.

He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, as Dana knows, as Gloria knows, and he's very practiced. It reminds me of Barack Obama on that stage when he was debating in 2007, although he's better than Obama.

BASH: Just to kind of give you a little bit of a behind-the-scenes moment on Rubio, when I asked the question of Donald Trump about what's wrong with speaking Spanish and it was obviously directed at Jeb Bush because Trump's comment on the campaign trail was directed at Jeb Bush, Rubio -- part of the thing that candidates try to do is catch your eyes if they can get a chance to jump in.

But Rubio was really like drilling down on me, like, I want to get in, I want to get in here. He clearly wanted to jump in because he's of course the only other person on the stage who speaks Spanish.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: How about your question? We have the sound bite, but I want you to tee it up, the question to Jeb Bush saying that obviously a lot of his policies on immigration were shaped by his wife. What was that about? BASH: It was about -- truthfully, I didn't know how he was going to

answer the question. I didn't know if he was going to answer the question by talking about his own immigration policies or if he was going to answer the question as a husband or just a spouse in general, like, back off my wife. And he did the latter, so...

BALDWIN: Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: You're proud of your family, just as I am.

TRUMP: Correct.

BUSH: To subject my wife into the middle of a raucous political conversation was completely inappropriate, and I hope you apologize for that, Donald.

TRUMP: Well, I have to tell you, I hear phenomenal things. I hear your wife is a lovely woman.

BUSH: She is. She's fantastic.

TRUMP: I don't know her, and this is a total mischaracterization...

BUSH: She is absolutely the love of my life, and she's right here...

TRUMP: Good.

BUSH: And why don't you apologize to her right now?

TRUMP: No, I won't do that, because I have said nothing wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORGER: Because he doesn't apologize.

BALDWIN: What did you think of that response? Should Jeb Bush have taken it a little...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Well, to be honest, I wasn't sure he was even going to take it that far.

There are a lot of people who were looking at it and kind of mulling it over this morning, saying he should have gotten one more time at him, like, come on, Donald. She's sitting right there. Apologize to her.

Donald Trump himself this morning said, I was surprised he didn't come at me and try to get me to apologize, sort of egging him on again. But my understanding is that he -- now that I know, because I didn't talk to them of course before the debate, that he was ready for it and he was encouraged by his team to really try to take him on.

We will see if people think he did it enough. But I also thought it was interesting that Columba tweeted.

BALDWIN: Tweeted.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me read this. She tweeted and she said, "I came to America because I love this country. Donald Trump is wrong." That's been retweeted, my last check, like 1,000 times.

BORGER: I think she's going to start -- I think you're going to start hearing from her some more.

And I think that this was a moment for them. It was very well- choreographed. And he knew that somebody was going to ask about this. And if Trump didn't apologize, which nobody really expected because he doesn't apologize about anything, that this was very well-planned on their part.

BALDWIN: Right.

All right, Jeff, Gloria and Dana, nice job again.

BASH: Thank you, my friend.

BORGER: Great job.

BALDWIN: Thank you very much.

BASH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And we should also mention our colleague waiting in the wings Wolf Blitzer, in just a couple of hours from now, he will be interviewing live here on CNN Hillary Clinton during "THE SITUATION ROOM."

[15:10:05]

They will discuss the debate. They will talk Bernie Sanders, so much more, 5:00 Eastern live right here on CNN.

Just into us here, American Airlines says its ground stop at three of the nation's largest airports has now officially been resolved, which is great, great news for so many of you heading out today.

Rene Marsh, our aviation correspondent, is working this for us.

Rene, that's great, but what happened?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, that's my question still at this hour. Here's the little bit that we do know.

We know that this issue, this computer issue lasted for about an hour and a half. It only impacted DFW Airport, Miami International, as well as Chicago O'Hare. So this was not a nationwide issue. At this point, the airline is saying that they don't believe that it is related to hacking. That being said, their I.T. teams are still currently working to come to a conclusion.

They really don't know as far as what I'm hearing what caused this computer problem. So they can't definitively say. They are saying it's not an issue related to their new op center and it's not an issue relating to their computer program that they use to book people on their flights. The question is which computer problem and which computers were affected and why? We still don't know, but we do know that planes are now getting off the ground, Brooke.

BALDWIN: That's good news. Rene Marsh, thank you so much in Washington.

Coming up, back here in California, my next guest has compared debating Donald Trump to wrestling a tornado. He would know. He wanted to be president himself. We will look at which candidates successfully weathered the storm last night. Former presidential candidate, Governor Tim Pawlenty, he will join me next.

Also, he had the best view in the house, but arguably the toughest job. Debate moderator Jake Tapper takes us through the triumphs and challenges he faced for hours and hours on that stage last night.

And Hillary Clinton expected to speak moments from now in New Hampshire about a very serious topic that came up actually in last night's debate.

Keep it here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage from the Reagan Presidential Library.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:31]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin here in Simi Valley, California.

It was the moment to shine, the CNN Republican debate giving some of the more middle-tier candidates a chance to break out from the pack. How did they do?

Let's talk to Tim Pawlenty, CEO of Financial Services Roundtable, former governor of Minnesota and former presidential candidate.

Governor, welcome back. Great to see you.

TIM PAWLENTY (R), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Good to be back. Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: The last time we chatted, I don't know if you remember this, but you compared debating Donald Trump to wrestling a tornado, essentially saying that a Republican doing well in the polls may want to hunker down.

So to go with your analogy, there were a couple people who did dare to wrestle the tornado last night. Do you think it was to their benefit?

PAWLENTY: Yes, absolutely.

I think the people who did that did it well and it was overall successful. If you're going to deal with a tornado, you wait for it to dissipate a bit. I think last night was the beginning of the dissipation of the Trump tornado.

He came unprepared in terms of his development and knowledge of the issues and he was outmaneuvered I thought on a number of exchanges, including those with Carly and Jeb, and really what revealed that was striking to me was the fact that, even though he's been on top of this polling pile for awhile, he hasn't taken the time to study and develop his knowledge of the issues.

And that was really embarrassing. He got asked some really important questions and he had no real answers.

BALDWIN: But, Governor, I hear you on the dissipation of the Trump tornado, but thus far, whether he's in a massive arena in Dallas or a battleship in the Los Angeles area, there have yet to be any sort of specifics. He's been saying, I will give you specifics in a couple weeks. I will give them to you.

And still that hasn't dinged him in the polls. Why do you think last night will?

PAWLENTY: I think it was revealed on a number of levels. One is his indefensible personal insults were revealed as indefensible at a level and in a way thanks to Carly that really showed his abilities and his skills and frankly his insensitivities to be probably unbearable in terms of somebody being president.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Which insult are you referring to?

PAWLENTY: I'm sorry?

BALDWIN: Which insults are you referring to?

(CROSSTALK)

PAWLENTY: Well, he's got a bunch of them, but of course the one about Carly's face is just atrocious. It's was an atrocious insult, indefensible. She handled it extremely well, as you and others have noted.

But he also got asked a question about national security, his advisers, what he would do, key issues. He basically said, I don't know, I will get back to you later. Marco Rubio was incredibly crisp and incredibly pointed when he said you have got to be ready from day one. And that answer was fantastic and Marco was sharp throughout the debate.

BALDWIN: Yes, most people absolutely agree with you on Marco Rubio on foreign policy. Let me ask you, though, just putting yourself in these candidates'

shoes. You have been there. You were actually polling so well, you were sitting next to Romney at a debate. I don't know how many were on the stage with you at that point in time. I know at one point you were on a debate stage of eight people.

What is so necessary to try to stand out when you only have this finite period of time and so many people wanting airspace?

PAWLENTY: You have to fight for your share of the time. And that means you have to get the moderator's attention and jump in when you can, because obviously more time can be very helpful.

Two is, when you do have that chance, you have to have your moment and frankly what gets reported mostly is zingers or if somebody makes a mistake. I think last night, Carly just shined. She just soared.

[15:20:01]

That closing about lady justice and lady liberty, the imagery was powerful. She had committed it to memory. She delivered it with passion and strength and poise. It was awesome.

Same for Marco Rubio. I think those two stood out. I think many of the other candidates had good nights. Chris Christie had a good night. And then I don't think anybody really hurt themselves. But clearly Carly and Rubio stood out and others had moments as well. But you have to get your attention and you got to put in zingers and have memorable moments. And those two did, in particular.

BALDWIN: Governor Pawlenty, people talked about you, as I have been here at the Reagan Presidential Library and whether you should have pulled out after that particular debate with Mitt Romney. It has to be, I don't know, an excruciating decision, it's a risk to try to determine what you have to gain vs. lose.

So after last night's debate, there will likely be one or two who will drop out. And can you just walk me through that decision for some of these folks?

PAWLENTY: It's a little different now than when I ran, Brooke, for this reason. Most of these candidates have super PACs. The main reason candidates drop out of races is because they run out of money.

In my case, I had run out of money and didn't have a super PAC to sustain me. I think I would have gotten a second or third look and maybe had another chance in the race, but we were just flat-out broke. And I didn't want to go into debt. So, I had to call it a day.

But even if you're a candidate now and you run out of money, your super PACs can sustain you awhile. And you want to stick around for this reason. If you don't believe Donald Trump is going to be or should be the nominee and you don't believe Ben Carson is going to be or should be the nominee, those two right now have 50 percent of the vote. And if they dissipate, those votes are going to get redistributed and

this race is going to change dramatically for that reason. That gives a lot of people hope and that's why you have to stick around and you can have your month in the sun.

BALDWIN: Who do you think, name one name for me, who do you think will be the next to drop?

PAWLENTY: I don't know who will be the next to drop, but I think the next two to rise will be Carly and Marco.

BALDWIN: All right, Tim Pawlenty, thank you so much, Governor. I appreciate it.

PAWLENTY: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here on CNN, the art -- thank you -- the art of the debate beyond the sound bites here. Which candidates really maximized their time on that stage and which candidates connected emotionally with the audience? We will bring in a preeminent debate coach to analyze last night's performance.

Keep it here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:40]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

So who won the Republican presidential debate here last night on CNN? Depends on who you ask. While front-runner Donald Trump may have been the one to watch smack dab in the center of the stage, Carly Fiorina, we keep mentioning her name today because she emerged as the star people are out and talking about. A couple other breakout stars, Chris Christie, Lindsey Graham in the undercard debate.

Here are some of Senator Graham's best moments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not going to tell you by shutting the government down, we're going to defund Obamacare as long as he's president. All that does is hurt us. I am trying to lead this party to winning.

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R-LA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Lindsey, well, that's my frustration.

GRAHAM: Whether you're the wedding cake baker or the gay couple or the Baptist preacher, radical Islam would kill you all if they could.

TAPPER: Senator...

GRAHAM: Let's don't lose sight of the big picture here.

I wasn't the best law student. By the end of this debate, it would be the most time I have ever spent in any library.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Ed Lee, Emory University debate director there in Atlanta.

I have to say, Senator Graham, he definitely had a sense of humor standing up there. You could hear the laughter with a couple of zingers he had.

But let's just begin with, listen, we talk so much about winners, and we will get there, but how about those who just really did not maximize their moment on stage? Who is at the bottom of your list? Who did not debate so well?

ED LEE, DEBATE DIRECTOR, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I thought that Ben Carson had an opportunity to shine.

He came in with a lot of people wanting to know, who is this Ben Carson? Why is he rising in the polls? There were various opportunities in which he had a chance to sort of stand out and say, this is what I have to offer as a president. This is what I know. Here's the person that makes me different from others.

And he just didn't do that. Debate is about shining. Debate is about taking a moment and the opportunities, and he never took that opportunity.

BALDWIN: You know, watching these different candidates, some of them fully would change their body posture and stare at the person next to them at the next podium. Some people would address the audience.

Then you had someone like Senator Ted Cruz, who when he was asked to respond, he would always straight on address the cameras and the 23 million people watching. Do you think that's effective?

LEE: I think you need to know who your audience is and that, for Ted Cruz, it was very clear that he was not communicating with the people asking, the audience, not communicating with the commentators, and not even communicating with the other people on the dais.

He was communicating with the people he's trying to get to vote for him. So understanding your audience is vitally important. And whether or not that was an effective way of communicating with his audience, it was very clear that he understood who his audience was and that it was those people out watching the TV, on the Internet trying to figure out who these 11 candidates are.

BALDWIN: What about some of the moments like the high five or really it was more like a low five between Donald Trump and Ben Carson?

The sort of intangibles, not what they are saying, but what they are doing, how did those things sit with people?

LEE: Those things make you human. There's an opportunity that -- we all want to feel like we can connect with people.

And any time there's a jovial moment, a time that there's a sense of levity, an understanding that we are actually human beings trying to make connections with other human beings, that's a positive moment. I thought that that was a great moment for both of those candidates.