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Carly Fiorina Rising in the Polls; Carson: Shouldn't Elect a Muslim President; Trump Drops Eight Points After CNN Debate, New Polling Shows; Carly Fiorina Jumps To Second Place; Rubio Moves Up To Fourth Place; Pope To Sit Down With Raul Castro. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 20, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I want to welcome our viewers in America and around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Fredricka Whitfield.

And we're following several developing stories today.

New polls show that Donald Trump is slipping and Carly Fiorina soaring to second place passing both Ben Carson and Jeb Bush.

Also, today, thousands gathering in Cuba where Pope Francis is today. In just a few minutes, he's going to be meeting with Raul Castro and the Cuban Council of Ministers. This after a historic encounter earlier in the day with Fidel Castro. That's where CNN "New Day" anchor Chris Cuomo is and he joins me now live from Havana.

Chris, tell us what the energy is like there.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean it's been a really exciting day for so many reasons especially just looking at what this means for the people of Cuba who feel forgotten, Jim, as you well now. There's a sense of desperation that was matching the expectations.

Word travels fast here. We're hearing El Papa Viene, the Pope is coming. This is the motorcade coming. We see the Pope mobile. He is not in it because he is not addressing crowds. This is a very important moment for Pope Francis as we watch the motorcade. Again, don't be excited. He's not supposed to be in the back of that Pope mobile. It's just there for his service. It moves in kind of a retinue. There's a group of vehicles that moves every time the Pope does.

The significance is now the Pope who already met with Fidel Castro is meeting again with Raul Castro who is currently in power and his head government ministers with the ministers that matched them as equals within the Vatican. Remember as we all know the Vatican is a sovereign. This is one in a series of meetings that has had very purposeful political impact.

There is no question or denying on any side that the Vatican has had an unprecedented role, Pope Francis specifically, an unprecedented hand in creating a reapproachment between Cuba and the United States. That is known. It is known that the Pope has been working with Raul Castro to make Cuba a safe ground for the ongoing negotiations of Colombian restoration.

The Pope is arriving right now. We're getting a picture of him walking up. There he is. He seems energetic given the long and incredibly hot day that he has had here. He's greeting Raul Castro again. It's not unusual to see a familiarity and a warmth. These two men have been talking. Raul Castro speaks about the Pope in a way that we've not heard him speak about a religious or world leader before.

He has said, he said not joking that if the Pope keeps talking this way, I may consider a return to prayer. He said in his speech yesterday, Jim, "I'm listening to the words of the Pope and the encyclical, listening to the words of the Pope here and the words that he refers to in the bible very closely." Unusual things for Castro to say.

Why are they meeting? Because what's the next step between the U.S. and Cuba. That's the big reason why the Pope is here. What should the Pope say when he goes to the United States, the curiosity that Raul Castro must have about that. It will be satisfied perhaps in this meeting. Also, what is the situation in Cuba that the Pope is hoping to expose as he travels around. What concessions and changes will Cuba make.

To this point, all we've heard from the Pope is serve your fellowmen, service is love, faith is about living your service. The question becomes what is the regime willing to give up in the name of service. That we haven't heard much about, maybe that will check some of the enthusiasm that Raul Castro has for the message of the Pope. We don't know.

What is the next step? Well, he goes to the United States after he finishes the tour here, not to get too far ahead. But let's bring in Carl Bernstein, obviously, we all know who he is, (INAUDIBLE) journalist. He will now give us some insight, Carol, into when the Pope goes before Congress and the word history gets thrown around because the man keeps making it but no Pope has ever spoken before Congress before, invited by Speaker, Boehner who is Catholic but this is not specifically about Catholicism, it has more to do probably with policy. What are the expectations it provides us?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it is about Catholocism partly. You know, im the author of a biography of Pope John Paul II, his holiness John Paul II in the history of our time. Very much that history is about the role of the church in the modern world. As defined by a great pope, John Paul II and Francis is very much in the tradition of John Paul II. He is a geopolitical thinker. He knows that the cultural warfare going on in the political world is also affecting the church itself. There's a great movement against Pope Francis in his own church by dissenting "consesvatives" who do not like the modernization that he is proposing.

He's also going to go for the Congress of the United States and say look, we want a world in which those concerns of mankind that should be shared whether about the environment, whether about human rights, whether about the rights of the unborn are all respected. [16:05:00]

That's his message. It's a consistent message. It's not very different than John Paul II's message. The whole question of capitalism, nobody spoke out about against capitalism and its excesses louder than John Paul II did. As loud as he spoke out against communism. Francis is the same way. He's a Jesuit. He's meeting Raul Castro who was educated by Jesuits. So this is a different and at the same time continuing sort of ball game that we're seeing.

CUOMO: Well, let's take a little bit of a look at both of these propositions. One about how far this Pope may go not just compared to John Paul II but really compared to anything that Congress addressed in this way before. You know, he referred to capitalism as the dung of the devil. No subtlety to that expression from a man who is usually given to some degree of nuance.

If he goes before Congress and makes the case that seems to be most basic with this Pope is you got a lot of money, you don't spend it in the right ways, you spend it too much on yourself, you should change. Yes, he'll fold that into global warming and the conservation of humanity. If that's the thrust of the capitalist of his discussion about capitalism, what do you think Congress does with a message like that?

BERNSTEIN: I think they listen. I think they're own debate about cultural warfare and where they stand, Republicans and Democrats aren't going to change very much. The question is whether his message of goodwill and whether his message of look - my church is trying to join the modern world in a different way than my two predecessors including John Paul II who in the last phases of his papacy had to confront the sexual scandals in the church.

This pope is moving on in terms of an agenda that is on gay rights much closer to what the debate in the United States now is. Same-sex marriage, et cetera, et cetera. He falls into this vaguely progressive notion of where the Church is going just as part of our politics moves towards progressivism and a reaction against progressivism. I think we'll see that in the reaction to how he does in the Congress.

CUOMO: Other than his early statement to not be one to judge what is in gay person's heart who loves Jesus, he has not taken any big steps towards tolerance in terms of how it's defined in the American culture war. You want to say this crucible of sexuality and whether it's tolerance or permissiveness, depending on your perspective, the Pope hadn't gotten too much into that.

He pretty much stuck to the mandate of love first, love, mercy, focus on that, don't focus on these other things the church has been too political, he said on many occasions.

Just to point out to the audience, Carl. What we just saw now was the ceremony part of the meetings with Raul Castro and Pope Francis, the greeting of the different minister officials. Now we're going to move on to the substance part. We see the two men walking alone. And what happened is now to our understanding is a continuation of a series of meetings that deal with progress here in Cuba, progress between the United States and Cuba and what the Pope can do and the Vatican can do in that.

And then also the thanks and the continued cooperation with respect to Columbia because the negotiations there, as you know, Carl, and the audience should know are going on here. This the safe harbour for those negotiations. They've had fits and starts. The Pope referred to them today in his mass. To finish up the point you were making about what happened with the Pope. You said there's a division in his own church. Let me bush back on that to you, in terms of quantify what you mean by division. Do you really believe the American Catholic Church is seeing a conservative, liberal split right now or do you think that it's more of an appetite for what they are seeing as progress with Pope Francis. And some conservatives are concerned.

BERNSTEIN: I think in the American church, all of the polls which are pretty good snapshot I think that show that American Catholics embrace this Pope with great happiness and his message. I'm talking about within the Vatican itself. Remember, two-thirds of the bishops and the cardinals of the church were appointed to their positions by John Paul II and by Benedict.

That the theology espoused in the enforcement of this theology espoused by John Paul II and Benedict was a very severe kind of message. This pope's - it's tone, its attitude, the message is different. The message is one of inclusion. The message on, especially gays, is very different than that of John Paul II and Benedict. This church is heading under Francis in a totally different direction. It's a little bit like John XXIII and Vatican II engaging the Church with the modern world. But in this case, without an ecumenical council being convened through the majesty of the Papacy itself. Will it succeed?

[16:10:15]

He has high bound opponents in the Vatican, in Rome who are trying to undermine him. At the same time he's the pope. So far he's been pretty successful with what he's trying to do. I expect before the Congress he's going to tone his message down a bit. If you were to look at John Paul II's statements about capitalism, you would find them every bit as strenuous as this Pope's.

CUOMO: Well, there's a Catholic tradition within the Vatican and its perspective on capitalism, no doubt about that, Carl, and that is the subject of a book that you wrote about John Paul II. We direct people to that. I thank you for the discussion here today.

I think one thing everybody will agree on is that when Pope Francis comes to the United States just as when he arrived here in Cuba it will be something that everyone watches no matter their political or religious ideology.

Carl, thank you very much. Always a pleasure to talk to you about these things.

BERNSTEIN: Good to be with you.

CUOMO: We'll have a quick break. When we come back we're going to tell you more about what you're seeing on your screen now. Raul Castro and Pope Francis having a tete-a-teee, one in a series of things and look at this. A CNN special report - "The People's Pope." A documentary where we go back to where Pope Francis is from to show you how far he has come. We're going to introduce you to the man in way you have not met him before. Man who right now is trying to change the situation in Cuba and in the United States. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto. And I want to show you some stunning poll numbers. The first poll since the second GOP debate, it aired here on CNN. Donald Trump still leading the race with 24 points but that's eight points lower before the debate.

Ben Carson dropping to third place at 14 percent. Marco Rubio seeing major increase over Jeb Bush but most notable of all, Carly Fiorina soaring into second place with 15 percent of the vote, up from just three percent.

[16:15:11]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: More people know who I am and we know based on what's happened before this debate that as people come to know me and understand who I am and what I've done and most importantly what I will do, they tend to support me. And so the truth is we're going to stay out here working hard every single day so that people who may be were introduced to me for the first time at that debate now gets know a little bit about me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, CNN's Sunlen Serfaty. She's in Mackinac Island in Michigan for the GOP forum there.

Sunlen, some remarkable changes in these polls from just a couple of weeks ago.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. Big changes. It really shows how significant this latest debate was in reshuffling the field and really changing the state of the Republican nomination race besides who is up and who is down in these latest polls.

I think what is most striking though is the comparison to where this field was just a month ago. You're looking at these numbers now. Donald Trump, he is still the front-runner right now but he's on a downward slope. He's lost eight points in the past month. Support slipping there too for Ben Carson who has lost five points.

If you compare that though to Carly Fiorina, leaping up 12 percentage points in the past month. That's a huge number. Basically about three weeks, same goes for Marco Rubio. A big jump for him, gaining eight points. And all these underscores of course, how vital these debate moments are for the candidates, especially when it's such a crowded field. They really need to shine in each and every moment.

So we saw in that debate Carly Fiorina really having a lot of clashes with Donald Trump and coming out very favorable. Same goes for Marco Rubio there who he really shined a bright light on his foreign policy chops. He was able to highlight those. Both those candidates Fiorina and Rubio really gaining a lot of momentum, Jim, in the time since.

SCIUTTO: No question the debate affecting those drops and those rises there. But who do the polls say won that debate?

SERFATY: Well, this is a very interesting question that was asked to the poll respondents. Basically the question posed was regardless of who you support, which candidate do you think did the best job in this debate? Very telling results here. Carly Fiorina overwhelmingly seen as the best. She was followed by Marco Rubio, Donald Trump, Chris Christie, of course, he managed to really interject that key moments during the course of that debate.

On the flip side though this poll was also asked whom did the worst job in that debate. Thirty one percent said Trump did the worst, followed by Rand Paul and Jeb Bush. So again showing how - what those candidates do up there on the debate stage goes a long way in setting a tone and the momentum on the campaign trail going forward. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. One loss on the debate definitely being reflected on who rose and who fell. Sunlen Serfaty in Mackinac Island, Michigan. Thanks very much.

Ahead, Ben Carson said he would not support a Muslim-American for president. That wasn't the only controversy from the Sunday morning shows. Hear what Carson and Donald Trump said right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:57]

SCIUTTO: Donald Trump fell eight points in today's CNN poll. Nevertheless, he is doubling down on his reaction to those anti-Muslim remarks from a supporter. This morning on NBC's "Meet the Press," he refused to concede that even President Obama is a Christian.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Can you imagine supporting or being comfortable if a Muslim ever became president of the United States?

DONALD TRUMP (RD=), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can say that it's something that at some point could happen. We'll see. You know it's something that could happen. Would I be comfortable, I don't know if we have to address it right now. But I think it's certainly something that could happen.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: You said you had no problem putting -

TRUMP: Some people said it already happened, frankly. Of course, you wouldn't agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now another Republican is saying that Muslims do not belong in the White House. Here's presidential hopeful Ben Carson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: So do you believe that Islam is consistent with the Constitution?

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I do not. I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Would you ever consider voting for Muslim for Congress?

CARSON: Congress is a different story. But it depends on who that Muslim is and what their policies are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As it happens the U.S. currently has two sitting Muslim congressmen. They are democrats Andre Carson from Indiana and Keith Ellison from Minnesota, who just released this statement to CNN citing the first amendment. It reads in part "For Ben Carson, Donald Trump or any other Republican politician to suggest that someone of any faith is unfit for office is out of touch with who we are as a people. It's unimaginable that the leading GOP presidential candidates are resorting to fear mongering to benefit their campaigns." And this "And every Wmerican should be disturbed that these national figures are engaging in and tolerating blatant acts of religious bigotry."

Joining me now to talk more about this is Attorney Brian Morgestern, he's a political strategist and Ellis Henican, he is a political columnist.

Brian, I want to begin with you. Very strong words that these are "blatant acts of religious bigortry." Do you agree with that charaterization?

BRIAN MORGENSTERN, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: I could be spared the faux outrage from the left who routinely says that Christian politicians who embrace their faith are basically unfit for office. Hillary Clinton just a few weeks ago said that Republicans' views are akin to Islamic terrorists. It was Hillary Clinton supporters in 2008 who started the rumor that Barack Obama was a Kenyan Muslim.

I mean, look, you can believe that it's the wrong thing to say but the faux outrage. Pease spare me.

SCIUTTO: I would disagree that it's faux outrage. I've spoken to Andre Carson. We have the statement from Keith Ellison there. They're both elected members of Congress. They don't seem to be faking it to me. To be fair, the comparison you're making not entirely equivalent. Because the comment was talking about Muslims being fit for elected office in a country of many faiths.

MORGENSTERN: Right.

SCIUTTO: How does that not equate with bigotry?

[16:25:03]

MORGENSTERN: Because the problem is when liberals say that conservatives who embrace their faith are unfit for office, they're doing the same thing but they refuse to acknowledge that. They think the door only swings one way. If you believe in religious liberty, which is a great thing to believe in, you should actually believe in it, you know, in different circumstances and not just when it helps you politically.

SCIUTTO: Ellis, I want to ask what do you think? Do you think that these comments or non-comments in many cases, refusals to criticize certain anti-Muslim remarks does that account to bigotry?

ELLIS HENICAN: Well, yes. It's horrible no matter who says it, Jim. Listen, there are certain charms of having inexperienced people run for high political officer, right? We've got some of these in this race. God, they say some dumb stuff. Don't they?

It's hard to know whether Ben Carson just wasn't thinking. Whether Donald Trump really believes that or thinks it's a good way to pan to a certain part of the base. But my god, it's just so goes against everything that we believe as a people. But I guess this is the year for that and so we're likely to get some more of it.

SCIUTTO: Is there political benefit to that, Ellis, because you have Republicans, let's not make this an issue of Republican or Democrat but you have had, Republican presidents George W. Bush, nine days after 9/11, he made a point in his address to Congress, to say that this is a not a problem with the Muslim faith. Muslims, Arabs are our friends. You had John McCain in 2008, actively challenged a questioner who questioned President Obama's faith. Is there not, if you're running for office in a multi-cultural, multi religious denominational land like this to challenge that kind of thinking?

HENICAN: Listen, both things have happened at one, right. It's not 2001 or 2008 anymore. We do have to learn to live in a more diverse culture. At the same time that diversity, Jim, it has produced a lot of anxiety out there.

I got to tell you, I think a big part of the engine that's propelling Trump is that exact anxiety. He's been very focused in playing at it, I would say.

SCIUTTO: I want for sake of argument to discuss this, to just toss quickly to a comment from Donald Trump in an interview with our Jake Tapper this morning on "State of the Union" on this issue. Let's have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: This man said "we have a problem in this country. It's called Muslims." Now, you're not responsible for what he says. But this is raw, unvarnished, ignorant bigotry. You're a leader, you're the front-runner in the Republican race. Do you not have a responsibility to call out this hatred?

TRUMP: Well, you know, we could be politically correct if you want. But certainly, are you trying to say we don't have a problem because I think everybody would agree. I have friends that are Muslims. They are great people, amazing people and most Muslims like most everything, these are fabulous people but we certainly do have a problem. You have a problem throughout the world.

TAPPER: What's the problem?

TRUMP: Well, you have radicals that are doing things. It wasn't people from Sweden that blew up the World Trade Center, Jake.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Brian, you heard Donald Trump's comments there. Is that what this is about purely Islamic extremists, the danger of terrorism or is there something broader?

MORGENTSEN: Well, I think that is the real issue. I think that when Donald Trump didn't speak up when that commenter said something stupid. Again, I don't blame Donald Trump for that either but it would have been helpful if under the circumstances he had corrected him and said no, no, the problem is violent Islamic terrorism not Muslims at large. It's easy to get caught up in generalizations which is the real problem here. It's radical Islam. Not Islam. It's illegal immigration that Trump talks about, not immigration in general.

When you allow the muddy water to exist as opposed to drawing sharp distinctions, which are very important ones, you end up offending people. So that's why he is constantly on TV speaking out making sure that people are getting the correct version of his message as opposed to the distorted generalizations.

SCIUTTO: Ellis, I have to ask you, Ellis, because Muslims hear something different from these comments. They just don't hear talk of the very real threat of Islamic extremism in this country, they hear their faith being painted with a broad brushed and they're just not folks on the street, it's Islamic members of congress such as Keith Ellison there, for instance.

Do you think it's fair to say that Donald Trump, Ben Carson is just talking about Islamic extremism or are you concerned that there an attempt to appeal to part of the base who has negative, bigoted view of Muslims?

HENICAN: Listen, there's an audience for this garbage. I mean, there's no doubt about that. In the same way that Mexicans feel like hey, was he talking about me when he says how many of us are rapists and criminals and drug dealers. [16:30:04]

Definitely, listen, politics operates on several levels at once, right. You're talking to your supporters who understand the code words. If you're good at it, you will avoid trouble with the others. These folks are just frankly just a little too amateurish about it to play one game without (tripping off) to another game.

SCIUTTO: I want to thank you for your thoughts on this. Please stick with us because we want to hear what you think about the new CNN poll for the 2016 Race, Donald Trump down, Carly Fiorina is up.

But first, we just got this picture in from Cuba. This is Pope Francis meeting with Fidel Castro. It's a historic moment, as there is a handshake. We'll talk more about that ahead with Chris Cuomo, who is live in Havana. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The results of our new CNN poll shows a major shake up in the race for president. Take a look at this, Trump still out front following Wednesday's CNN debate, but he drops a significant eight points. Carly Fiorina on the other hand jumping to second place, pushing Ben Carson to third. Meanwhile, Marco Rubio moving up to fourth place, a big jump for him as well. Having to talk about the poll and what it means, Political Strategist Brian Morgenstern and Political Columnist Ellis Henican. First, let's talk about who voters liked in this debate. You see the numbers, 52 percent of people thought Carly Fiorina won hands down, the best performance, almost 4 to 1 over Marco Rubio. Ellis, looking at that turnaround there, you really see the importance of these debates in pushing the overall poll numbers and support numbers.

HENICAN: Well, 24 million is a lot of viewers. I mean, we've never had any history that has this numbers, anywhere like this. So, yeah, they have far more impact than in other years. Maybe more than we're going to get in the Democratic debates, and (adjust) this kind of thing is possible. I think it makes it fun frankly.

[16:34:55]

SCIUTTO: It is. It's been a fun campaign to watch. Look, the big factor favorably rating. And on here, although in Dr. Ben Carson for instance, he dropped the overall numbers, still very high, 65 percent. Fiorina getting a big number, 54. But Donald Trump, even though he dropped in the overall poll and most people thought he lost the debate, performed the worst rather by the CNN poll, still with a 52 percent favorable rating. Are those numbers that give all of them still a running chance of being the nominee?

MORGENSTERN: Sure. And as I say so often, you know, we're still four, five months away from voting. And generally, proposed to have any real predictive value. You got to be between you know four to eight weeks or sooner before the election. There's still so much movement to occur, so many more -- you know, a couple more fund raising deadlines, a lot more local events in Iowa and New Hampshire where the activists will sort of -- you know, the primary voters and caucus voters will start to coalesce a little bit more. So there's plenty of time for these candidates to really make a lot of movement in the polls.

SCIUTTO: Ellis, another headline here, Senator Marco Rubio really going up, but then Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker who early on in this process was considered a frontrunner, Rubio shooting up to fourth place. Walker you know almost an asterisk in his support down there. What happened?

HENICAN: I'd give it maybe half an asterisk. I mean, you have to feel sorry for the guy. He was romping in Iowa. I think it's done. Frankly, I don't see how he's going to be able to pull up. Yes, you're absolutely right. Things can change in these races so far out, but, Brian, I don't know that this guy is ever going to be breathing again.

MORGENSTERN: Well, I think there's still chance there. He's got some money in the bank where he can make a dent. I want to talk about the other side of that coin though which was Rubio's performance. Rubio and Fiorina, in my judgment, you know, they did well in the polls. I also thought they were the most substantive candidate on that stage particularly on foreign policy. And there's a large segment of the Republican electorate, for which foreign policy is either a top issue or at least one of the top couple of issues. So I think those two candidates, distinguishing themselves, particularly Rubio, you know, making that big jump, I think is telling. I think that he's got a bright future in this campaign.

SCIUTTO: You know, these debates clearly have had one enormous following. They're getting more viewers than ever before, but also a big effect on the poll numbers. There was a school of thought going into this, so many debates, so many candidates. No one really knows who they are, where they stand. Are you surprised by how central -- how crucial these debates are proving in possibly picking the Republican, and on the other side, the Democratic nominee?

MORGENSTERN: No. If anything, I want more of them. It's the one thing that focuses people's minds, and it's the one moment in this super-processed political age that we live that there as candidate you can't really control. You don't know what Jake will ask. You don't know how Donald is going to be snarky to you. And so it really does require these people actually step-followed in an uncontrolled environment and think on their feet. I think they're absolutely terrific. I'd like one every night. Let's just keep doing it.

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: And Democrats pushing for more debates as well.

HENICAN: It's too bad. I wish we had more.

SCIUTTO: Brian Morganstern and Ellis Henican, great to have you on this Sunday. Thanks for joining us.

MORGENSTERN: Thanks, Jim. SCIUTTO: And in just 48 hours, Pope Francis comes here to the United

States. Next, the unprecedented security already in place to keep him safe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:42:16]

CUOMO: I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome back to CNN's Special Coverage here in Havana, Cuba of Pop Francis' historic visit. Just moments ago, the Pope walked into a private meeting. Right now, sitting with Cuba's president, Raul Castro. This is one in a series of meetings between the two men. There's an obvious familiarity, some would even suggest an affection. The question is what happens next.

Now, look at this picture. This is the meeting that everybody was wondering if it would happen, Pope Francis, and yes, Fidel Castro. It happened -- you see, Fidel looking frail and yet standing and shaking the hand of the Pope, who is about 30 to 45 minutes. It was said as congenial and formal. The men exchanged gifts. What did Fidel get from the Pope? Books. They said that's what he wanted. So the rest of the family was also there. What did they talk about? It's not as important as what it means, the significance of it. Similarly, we saw a lot of video out of the Vatican and from Cuban governments of the meetings that are ongoing right now.

The ministers of the Cuban government are meeting with the ministers of -- their counterparts within the Vatican and Pope Francis. It's interesting as we're discussing this now, we're starting to hear some thunder around here. The clouds are starting to move in, not to suggest anything foreboding. This is a actually a good situation that's going on here. They believe that this is the proof of why there has been progress between U.S.-Cuba relations. So the hope on both sides is there's more progress.

So what happens after Cuba? Lots of stops and lots of moments to be seen. But then you see the Pope goes to Washington. He's going to address Congress. He would be the first Pope to ever do that. And what comes along with that? Anticipation, excitement, and responsibility. What we saw today as the Pope was coming up to Revolution Square in a place that's very tightly secured, people are able to get right up to the Pope and grab his hand in a type of -- what was it? They didn't want to hurt the Pope obviously from what we saw, but they did want an audience.

So what happens having keep the Pope safe on American soil? Let's bring in Michael Balboni for that. Michael Balboni has worked with New York State for Homeland Security. He understands how you keep the pontiff safe. He has had to do it in the past when Pope Benedict came. And he joins us now. Mr. Balboni, thank you very much. What we saw today, people making it all the way up to the Pope Mobile, grabbing the Pope's hand, being pushed away by men in suits, but not arrested for many minutes. They are able to throw leaflets and continuing to reproach. Would that happen on American soil?

[16:44:32] MICHAEL BALBONI, NEW YORK STATE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: OK, Chris. We are going to take the cities and we are to make sure that this frozen zones that we will try to at least restrict some of the access in. But it's really about concentric layers of security, a 360-degree arc of protection. And that relies on things like video surveillance, intelligence, social media monitoring, undercover police officers, the ability to tap, counter-surveillance teams, counter sniper seams. When ever you get to a city, you always have to pay attention to what kind of cars are in the streets, if any. How traffic is moving, to the extent you can know who is in the building, surrounding the site itself. And they've done this before, certainly in 2008 with the former Pope. But it will provide a challenge because of the environment. The ISIS threat. They'll raise the flag over the Vatican. So it's a very concentrated risk.

CUOMO: Did you see the video that I'm talking about today? Maybe if you want the control room if you can rack it up while we are talking to Mr. Balboni, so the audience can see what I'm talking about. What was surprising about it is yes, a couple of men and a woman, I believe, were eventually tackled and taken away. But it took a while, Mr. Balboni.

BALBONI: Yes.

CUOMO: They kept like shooing them away. It seemed unusually nonchalant for something like that. You would think as soon as someone got near a figure like the Pope, they would immediately be taken down.

BALBONI: Everyone's got different types of security protocols and the way they do things. In the United States, typically what everybody does is they have a very strong presence. And they make sure everybody understands. You're not going to go pass this point. But yet, here is a Pope that wants to get in the middle of the crowd, wants to be able to shake people's hands, it's part of everything he does in terms of interactions. That poses a huge challenge for the Secret Service, but not one they aren't familiar with. Again, they will have to use this multiple players of security. They've been working on this now for nine months plus.

CUOMO: One of the big cities obviously that the Pope will visit is Philadelphia. We have some sound from the mayor of Philadelphia, Michael Nutter about how they plan to keep the pontiff safe. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL NUTTER, PHILADEPLHIA MAYOR: We're fundamentally ready to go. There's always stuff to be done. There's no question about it. We're still building the stage and altar. All of the security fencing has to be put. There will be tons of work to do between now and you know really kind of (inaudible) in that, and the arrival of the Pope next Saturday. But from a planning and preparation standpoint, we're absolutely good to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Obviously, the mayor making the point there's still a lot of work to do. But, Mr. Balboni, as far as you know, this is something that authorities know how to do. They've dealt with big dignitaries. No one is probably as big a challenge as the Pope. You believe their ready? Quickly.

BALBONI: Well, Philadelphia being the fourth largest police department in the country, Commissioner Ramsey very experienced out of Chicago and Washington, D.C. They've gotten a lot of resources and applying them. They've had time to prepare.

CUOMO: Mr. Balboni, thank you very much. I appreciate the perspective.

BALBONI: Thanks.

CUOMO: All right, Jim, let me give it back to you.

SCIUTTO: Next, we're going back to Cuba live for more coverage of the Pope's historic trip.

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[16:52:12]

CUOMO: Welcome back to CNN's Special Coverage of Pope Francis' trip to Havana. It has been historic already in terms of the message and the magnitude. We are looking right now at the ongoing meeting between Raul Castro and Pope Francis. I'm joined by Rosa Flores. I'm Chris Cuomo.

It is good that they're inside because this is a sultry Havana. It is hot. It's humid here. The two men inside comfortably talking, as they had many times. The expectation is this is not just ceremonial, this is part of a sequence of what they are hoping is progress on several fronts, right.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Definitely so. And just imagine, these two leaders because, not only is the Pope here as the leader of the Catholic church, he's also the leader of Vatican city speaking in private, Chris. Now, we know that the Pope has mentioned the words bridges, the words peace. And one of the biggest bridges that he's built so far is the bridge between Cuba and the United States. And as we look forward at his visit to the United States, you know, what could be happening behind those doors...

CUOMO: Right.

FLORES: And perhaps we might learn later that he delivered a message to President Obama. He will be having his similar meetings with President Obama.

CUOMO: Some gentlemen are coming right now. They are peaking in there. Obviously, whenever the Pope goes anywhere, there's a ceremony to it. There's an expectation to it. And we'll just keep monitoring the picture because there's plenty to talk about. I mean, it's not just the United States. Cuba is playing host to the negotiations ongoing in Columbia right now. But the Pope appealed to Raul Castro to be at home for that for two reasons I'm told. I want your take on it. One is they needed a place to do it in Latin America. The second was that they believed it was somewhat a reintroduction to Raul Castro being part of a reconciliation process.

FLORES: Right. And we've learned the Pope is not expected to meet with Columbian leaders here, but did you notice earlier today he mentioned Colombia...

CUOMO: At the mass.

FLORES: Exactly. He mentioned Columbia at the mass, even though he's not meeting with them face-to-face. He still made a mention and that speaks volumes. We know that the Pope really has been an ambassador of peace.

CUOMO: Now, this is a big deal. The mass was a huge deal, but arguably -- arguably, now, you may take the other side of this because you met the Pope today. And that's all you can think about.

FLORES: And I feel holy.

CUOMO: When he sees these 2,000 kids later and they have access to wi-fi, and they go on social media, people all over the world will shake their head and say so what. In Cuba, how big of a deal was that?

FLORES: It's a very big deal. I think that multiple times in the past few months, and as soon as you arrive, as soon as you land, none of your U.S. devices work. This time, our U.S. devices started working. That's huge.

CUOMO: It is.

FLORES: It just never happens.

[16:54:55]

CUOMO: Internet access is rare. It is really expensive. I think there are 35 wi-fi hot spots around this island. And people are like that's a lot. No, it isn't. Cuba is 750 miles long. All the other islands in the Caribbean could fit in Cuba geographically, about 125 miles across in its widest point, 11 million.

FLORES: It's a big bridge.

CUOMO: Right.

FLORES: That the Pope is building.

CUOMO: It is.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: And we're showing you pictures of -- look at that, Rosa Flores shaking his hand, talking his ear off. I mean, let the man speak, Rosa.

FLORES: We were speaking in Spanish. So you can only imagine.

CUOMO: Grabbing his shoulder.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Look, they didn't take you down.

(LAUGHTER)

FLORES: I was scared of the security guys, quite frankly.

CUOMO: Don't touch the Pope so much, you won't have to be so scared. He gave you a blessing. You exchanged gifts. We do the job and we do it in so many different ways. But at the end of the day, we're people. You're Catholic by your own upbringing. This is a big moment for you as a person.

FLORES: As a person, just as an individual, to be able to meet the Pope, to get a blessing from the Pope is the moment that I will never forget. And I will carry it with me forever.

CUOMO: I was excited to see you. You know, we've known each other a while now. It's great when you get to see somebody have a memory. It's a great part of doing this job, being a witness to history, that's moving apparently in a positive direction.

Now, the humanitarian -- the humanity of the situation goes right to who Pope Francis is. That's why we have done a special type of documentary for you. Tuesday night at 9 Eastern, you'll get to know the man, the way you haven't gotten to know him before, from where you grew up to the people who knew him best. And here is Pope Francis leaving the meeting to get a little rest and have his big meeting with the youth tonight.

Jim Sciutto, my friend, I'll tell you, you've covered many of these stories before. It is a unique experience to be among the Cuban people and see their desperation matched by their anticipation of better days to come. Pope Francis made that real, at least for a day.

SCIUTTO: No question. And each moment, a little piece of history, after you see that meeting wrapping up with the Cuban president. I admit, Rosa and Chris, I'm a little jealous of you down there myself, but I'm happy that you're there covering for us.

Thank you for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto. The next hour of Newsroom begins after a quick break. You'll be joining Poppy Harlow.

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