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Presidential Race and Muslims; Church Sex Abuse Survivors; History Made at Last Night's Emmy Awards. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired September 21, 2015 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have radicals that are doing things. I mean, it wasn't people from Sweden that blew up the World Trade Center, Jake.
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[09:30:05] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Trump isn't the only one taking heat. Rival Ben Carson at the center of his own controversy for saying he does not believe the U.S. should elect a Muslim president.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So do you believe that Islam is consistent with the Constitution?
BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I don't. I do not. I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you -- would you ever consider voting for a Muslim for Congress?
CARSON: Congress is a -- is a -- is a different story, but it depends on who that Muslim is and what their policies are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: In the meantime, a new CNN poll shows Trump and Carson are losing steam as Carly Fiorina and Marco Rubio ride a double digit bounce.
With me now to talk about all of this, CNN political commentator and radio host Ben Ferguson. I'm also joined by Mike Shields. He's the former chief of staff for the RNC and president of the Congressional Leadership Fund.
Welcome, gentlemen. Thanks for being here.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.
MIKE SHIELDS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, RNC: Good morning.
COSTELLO: So, Ben, I don't even know what to make about -- seriously? Can't we move past this?
FERGUSON: Well, I -- look, I think this all started with Donald Trump when he had the guy ask him the question saying that Barack Obama isn't even American, he's a Muslim. And then you have this conversation come out of it where we're back at this issue yet again. What Ben Carson said is not as troubling to me because he's saying, I would not advocate for somebody that is Muslim to be in the White House. Obviously, it goes against his beliefs as a Christian. He has concerns about Muslim extremism in this country. He's saying that would not be my top priority. So I don't think he's going to be in that much trouble.
COSTELLO: Wait a minute, Ben. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let's just back up. You think it goes against Donald Trump's beliefs as a Christian? That's really why he's opposed to a Muslim being in the White House?
FERGUSON: I'm -- look, I would not advocate for someone --
COSTELLO: Or uncomfortable with it?
FERGUSON: Well, hold on, let me make this clear. I wouldn't advocate for somebody that is a Muslim to be the front runner for the Republican side. But let me also make it clear, if a conservative Muslim is running against Hillary Clinton, I'm going to probably support the conservative Muslim. I think it doesn't matter as much about the religion as it does, what do you stand for individually and what type of Muslim are you individually? If you are a conservative Muslim, if you are calling out radical Islam, then that is one thing completely different than if you're someone that is sympathizing with Muslims, and also Muslim extremism.
We do have a problem in this country. The FBI saying we're investigating Muslims in all 50 states in this country. When we see this -- whatever it be, the bomb, for example, the Boston bombing. Whether it be Fort Hood shooting. We see that some of these Muslims are connected with local mosques and I don't think they've done a good enough job really calling out extremism in this country, when many of them are attending some of these mosques and they're allowing them to be there.
COSTELLO: Well, they're also investigating Christians who converted, right? So it's not just --
FERGUSON: Well --
COSTELLO: Right? So it's more complicated than that.
FERGUSON: I'm not saying -- I'm not saying that -- let me also make this clear. I'm not saying that only Muslims can be terrorists. Obviously, other people of other religions can be terrorists, but what I'm saying is, again, I'll make it abundantly clear, if I have the option between an Evangelical Christian --
COSTELLO: So -- so can Christians be terrorists? I'm just asking. FERGUSON: And a Muslim, I'm going to pick the Evangelical Christian
because they align more with my moral beliefs and values. That doesn't mean that -- that's normal in life, by the way. Fifty percent of Americans would not like me at the White House or people that believe in what I believe in because I'm a conservative Christian. It doesn't mean that they necessarily hate me.
COSTELLO: No, no, I get it. I'm just playing devil's advocate because I think it's important to do that, frankly, on this topic.
FERGUSON: Sure.
COSTELLO: Mike, CARE has come out and said Ben Carson should drop out of the presidential race. Do you agree?
SHIELDS: No, he shouldn't drop out of the race. I mean he's sharing his views. The voters are going to decide whether or not what he said is relevant in the race. I think -- and it's -- you know, these are different topic we have here. We've got sort of three different issues. We have Donald Trump talking about the president's faith and where he came from and not calling out someone in one of his rallies for saying that. I think that's a mistake on his part.
FERGUSON: Agreed.
SHIELDS: I don't think you win the Republican nomination by going there. You have Donald Trump calling out Muslim radicals. I think that is a successful strategy. I think every Republican candidate for president is going to talk about that because it's a real problem in the country. And then I think you have Ben Carson saying he wouldn't vote for someone based on their religion. I think that's dangerous, actually. I think most Evangelical Christians in this country that want to -- that are voting, especially in the Republican primaries, are actually concerned about religious liberties. They're concerned about the government getting in the way and not protecting their faith. But I think it's a dangerous road to go down --
COSTELLO: So, Mike, if you think -- if you think what -- Mike, if you think what Ben Carson is saying is dangerous, why don't you think he should drop out?
SHIELDS: Because, what -- I mean, look, you can't ask someone to drop out every time they say something you disagree with. I mean the voters are going to decide. We're a long ways away.
COSTELLO: Even if it's dangerous?
SHIELDS: You've still got the Iowa caucuses to come. Well, I don't think it's a successful strategy to win, but it's up to him to say it. I mean Ben Carson is -- is in second place in a lot of the polls. He's drawing a lot of voters. The voters are going to decide whether or not this is something that is going to matter for him in the -- he's got a lot of other policies he's been talking about as well. I think it's a little -- still a little absurd and probably them making headlines to call on someone to drop out just because of a view they have.
[09:35:13] FERGUSON: Hey, look, what he said was --
SHIELDS: I disagree with that view. I don't think you should -- right (ph).
FERGUSON: What he said was, he would not advocate for somebody who is Muslim to be in the White House. I don't think that's as extreme of a statement as some are trying to make it out to be. I understand why you have groups that are saying he should drop out because this gets their name back out there. They say this is Islamic phobia. I disagree. I think there are many people that would not advocate for people of a different religion for them in the position of power at the White House. We see voters do this every four years. We have an issue with faith. It matters to some. It doesn't matter to others. And a lot of it is comparing it to what the alternative is. I'll say this --
SHIELDS: Yes, I -- look, I think it's OK --
FERGUSON: Bernie Sanders, I would be terrified of as a socialist more than a conservative Muslim, for example.
COSTELLO: Gotcha. I got to leave it there, but this has been a fascinating conversation and thanks to both of you for joining me this morning. I do appreciate it.
FERGUSON: Thanks.
SHIELDS: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Ben Ferguson and Mike Shields.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, millions may be enthusiastic about the pope's visit to Cuba and the United States, but others are criticizing the pope for still not doing enough about the church's sex abuse scandals.
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[09:40:40] COSTELLO: All right, I want to take you briefly to a Boston area courtroom. You're looking at a man named Michael McCarthy. He is accused of killing "baby doe," who we now know is Bella Bond, a little girl whose body was found on a beach near Boston in a plastic garbage bag. Supposedly, sources tell CNN, this man killed this little girl because he thought she was possessed by the devil. Now, also in court, you can see the mother there. She's in the gray hoodie behind that Plexiglas. Her name is Rachelle Bond. He is also charged in her own daughter's death. Jean Casarez will have much more on this in the next hour of NEWSROOM.
COSTELLO: In other news this morning, the pope just arrived in Holguin, a city that no other pope has ever visited. In less than an hour, the pope is expected to hold a mass in front of thousands and thousands of people. When Pope Francis comes to the United States, and arrives in Philadelphia, word is he'll meet privately with victims of church sex abuse. That is extremely important to advocates who have been pressuring the Vatican to deal openly and more effectively with clergy who abuse children. Pope Francis has vowed to do that, but has he?
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COSTELLO (voice-over): Megan Peterson's paintings are beautiful but they depict something ugly, perverted faith, rape, pain.
COSTELLO (on camera): The paintings are always surrounding you when you're in this room. How does that feel?
MEGAN PETERSON, ABUSE SURVIVOR: I think it's like the abuse. It's not who I am, but it's became a part of me. And it's, in my mind, I mean sometimes I have to turn them around.
COSTELLO (voice-over): Peterson says she was raped by her parish priest when she was 15, called a liar by the church. Her alleged attacker maintaining his innocence, but later convicted of sexually assaulting another teenager.
COSTELLO (on camera): So, Pope Francis, he said that he was going to take care of the sexual abuse problem within the catholic church. So, as a victim, how do you think he's doing?
PETERSON: I always want to say that there is -- there is potential. That he has potential. Because if I feel if I lose that threat of hope as an individual, like it just -- it's too much to bear.
COSTELLO (voice-over): Pope Francis has vowed to cleanse the church of bishops who fail to protect children. In July, he held a private mass for six victims of church sex abuse.
"I beg your forgiveness," he told them. Over the last decade, the Vatican dismissed more than 848 priests and disciplined some 2,500 members of the clergy. 100,000 children in the United States may have been abused by clergy.
MARIA COLLINS, ABUSE SURVIVOR: I think it's the last chance really for the catholic church to get it right.
COSTELLO: Marie Collins is part of a Vatican commission created by Pope Francis to protect children from abusers.
COLLINS: I was totally shocked.
COSTELLO (on camera): Did you think it was real?
COLLINS: Not really because I thought I must be the last person that they -- they would be calling on, you know?
COSTELLO (voice-over): Collins says she was sexually abused by a priest in Ireland. She is an outspoken critic of the church.
COSTELLO (on camera): So, in your mind, the church is worth saving?
COLLINS: Of course. I mean the church meant a lot to me in -- over many years. As I said, my abuser didn't take my faith away. I nearly lost it by the way the church -- it was a lot easier to forgive my abuser than to forgive the church and to forgive the church leadership for what they did to me.
COSTELLO (voice-over): Collins says there has been progress, most importantly, the principle of accountability has been accepted. If a bishop covers up abuse, the church holds him responsible. Still, she says, change is shockingly slow. The commission formed over a year ago has yet to be fully funded.
COSTELLO (on camera): What? You haven't got funding yet? How long --
COLLINS: No. We -- we're -- we're actually -- our first meeting was May 2014.
COSTELLO: What can you do without funding?
COLLINS: We have -- we have sort of day to day getting along funding, but we don't know what our budget and for the actual work we're doing is going to be.
COSTELLO (voice-over): Megan Peterson isn't surprised.
COSTELLO (on camera): Do you still consider yourself catholic?
[09:45:00] PETERSON: No, I don't.
COSTELLO: Could you ever again?
PETERSON: I guess I can't see into the future. I don't think so, but I also have absolutely no problem with the religion. I mean, I've never felt that I need to destroy it or it's this terrible thing.
COSTELLO: So if you suffer abuse at the hands of clergy, go to the police?
PETERSON: Go to the police, yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: I'm writing a series of columns related to Pope Francis' visit to North America. The first appears today on CNN.com. As you can see, "Amid Praise", it's about the pope's popularity polls and his popularity is plunging and I kind of outlined why in this op-ed.
Also make sure to check out CNN tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern for the Special Report, "THE PEOPLE'S POPE".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:50:16] COSTELLO: An emotional and record-breaking night at the 67th annual Emmy awards. History was made for African-American women in television and HBO had an epic performance, but like any good drama, one of the most moving moments came near the end of the show.
Michaela Pereira joins me now with that.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": It was a great, great night and it was celebrating all sorts of television's best in show, Carol, but one thing you can say for sure, the 67th Emmy awards did not disappoint. It was a night of firsts for Hollywood.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Viola Davis, "How To Get Away With Murder".
PEREIRA (voice-over): Viola Davis making history last night.
VIOLA DAVIS, ACTRESS, "HOW TO GET AWAY WITH MURDER": The only thing that separates women of color from anyone else is opportunity. You cannot win an Emmy for roles that are simply not there.
PEREIRA: Becoming the first African-American woman to win an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series, grabbing an Emmy for her performance in "How To Get Away With Murder".
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the first Emmy win and 16th nomination for Jon Hamm.
PEREIRA: Another first, Jon Hamm finally scooping up an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama for his iconic role as the tortured Don Draper on "Mad Men" after seven previous losses.
JON HAMM, ACTOR, "MAD MEN": There has been a terrible mistake, clearly.
PEREIRA: HBO dominating with a whopping 43 victories. Their fantasy series "Game of Thrones" being crowned Best Drama, the show's first win, beating out "Mad Men" and shattering an academy record, defeating "The West Wing" by winning more Emmys in a single year than any other series.
HBO's "Veep" also grabbing Best Comedy, and "Olive Kitteridge" leading the Limited Series category.
TRACY MORGAN, ACTOR, "30 ROCK": I miss you guys so much.
PEREIRA: Surprising everyone, Tracy Morgan, marking his return by presenting Best Drama, his first time back on stage since that serious car accident last year that left him in a coma for eight days.
Morgan's fellow "Saturday Night Live" alum Andy Sandberg rounding out another night of firsts, hosting the show for the first time.
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PEREIRA (on camera): Certainly interesting to note that in recent years the new spate of streaming services, things like Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, they've made impressive showings at the Emmys. This year, though, a traditional TV network, albeit cable, like HBO, holding its own and proving it can still churn out quality programming. And we should point of course HBO is also owned by our parent company, Time Warner.
COSTELLO: That's fair of you.
PEREIRA: It's important to stay fair. COSTELLO: Stay with me because we were going to do this thing with Nischelle Turner, but I want you to talk to Nischelle Turner along with me.
PEREIRA: I will.
COSTELLO: Can we go to Niscelle Turner right now?
It's a benefit of having your own show.
NISCHELLE TURNER, HOST, "ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT": Two of my favorite women on television with me at the same time. I can't handle it. I can't.
PEREIRA: You can do it. You can do it!
COSTELLO: Yes, exactly. It was such an historic night. They got into race and politics and sexism. What is it like inside the arena?
TURNER: Well, you know, it's an intimate venue because it is at the Microsoft Theater in Los Angeles. And that is placed to 7,100 people, so while all of us see the audience and think it's this huge kind of arena, it's actually very intimate. So it's -- we were talking about Andy Sandberg and talking about how he did. And it's different playing to the room, because I'm not sure if he was as funny to the room as he might have been to some people at home. I love his humor so I thought he was very funny. But it's a very different dynamic when you're sitting there and there are commercial breaks and trying to get up and go and so, so, it's a little different. It plays differently.
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ANDY SAMBERG, HOST, EMMY AWARDS: But the big story this year is diversity. This is the most diverse group of nominees in Emmys history. Congratulations, Hollywood, you did it! Yes. Racism is over. Don't fact-check that.
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TURNER: I love it.
PEREIRA: Do you think there is a bit of the fact that, because it's so early on in award season, it isn't even really the start of it, there's more tolerance for these shows? Because it sounds like everybody was saying it was enjoyable show, they liked, it they laughed. It wasn't one of those nights where you're like, my goodness, it's dragging on. It seemed like the whole show moved and was enjoyable.
TURNER: No, it did move and it was enjoyable, but it was long. I mean, it was three hours long, so it was a pretty good sized show. But I think that you're right. I think it has something to do with this is the first kind of big award show of the season that we see and everyone's very excited about it. [09:55:00] It's the prime time Enemy awards so the best in television.
There's so much good television out there so I think everyone gets very excited. But think about the fact it's another one of those award shows. So, yes, I think that does definitely have something to do with it.
COSTELLO: You know, the three of us are going to have to meet somewhere really cool and go out for some --
TURNER: I can't take this.
(CROSSTALK)
PEREIRA: Getting back together might be illegal, actually. I think might be.
COSTELLO: Oh, that's what I like best about it. Michaela, Nischelle Turner, thanks so much.
The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, Trump loses ground as Carly Fiorina climbs, pulling neck and neck with Ben Carson.
CARSON: I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation.
[10:00:00] COSTELLO: Muslim leaders calling for Carson to drop out as Trump says he loves Muslims but --
TRUMP: You have radicals that are doing things. I mean, it wasn't people from Sweden that blew up the World Trade Center.
