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Backlash Over Carson's Comments on Muslims; CAIR Calls for Carson to Drop Out of Race; New Details in Baby Doe's Murder Case; Papal Etiquette as Pope Francis to Visit U.S. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 21, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Will Ripley, CNN, Nampo City, North Korea.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Will. That's it for me. The news continues next on CNN.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Monday. Let's get to it.

Intense backlash growing right now after presidential candidate, who was polling pretty high, says a Muslim has no business being President of the United States. Just a short time ago, the country's leading Muslim advocacy group demanded that Dr. Ben Carson drop out of the race for the White House. It comes after Dr. Carson said this on "Meet The Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Today, CAIR, that's the Council on American Islamic Relations, among others, pointed out Article VI of the U.S. Constitution clearly states that there shall be, quote, "No religious test for any public office."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIHAD AWAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Assume and say that American Muslims cannot be President of the United States. His views are inconsistent with the United States Constitution. For that, we really urge politicians, the general public, community leaders, presidential candidates to repudiate his views. And we ask Mr. Ben Carson to withdraw from the presidential race because he's unfit to lead.

MAHDI BRAY, AMERICAN MUSLIM ALLIANCE: You know, I heard some of his surrogates try to dress it up that he's not trying to be politically correct. Well, he's wrong. He's politically wrong.

REV. GRAYLAND HAGLAR, PASTOR, UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST: Right now the politicians are acting like thugs. Thugs and demagogues. And it's time for it to stop and Carson needs to leave the race and Donald Trump needs to leave the race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So those were folks from the organization, CAIR. No word yet on Dr. Carson's response to that news conference to those words. But in an interview just this morning with The Hill, Carson only doubled-down on his comments saying, quote, "I do not believe Sharia is consistent with the Constitution of this country. Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official and that's inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution."

So let me first bring in CNN politics reporter, M.J. Lee. And before we chat, let me just show everyone some numbers in CNN's first poll after the Republican debate. We know that Carson dropped to third place. Remember, he had been polling in second in double digits. He's still in double digits, but polling third here.

How much of a concern here for the Carson camp is there in the wake of what he said? Even though he is doubling down, no apologies. How much could that even affect his support going forward?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Look, here's the thing to remember about Ben Carson. He is a deeply religious person. And in the world of presidential politics, that's a very powerful asset to have, especially when you're a Republican candidate. In states like Iowa, South Carolina, there's a huge base of evangelical voters that all of these Republican candidates are going to want to win over.

I thought it was telling when Ben Carson, who is this incredibly reserved and quiet candidate -

BALDWIN: Soft-spoken.

LEE: Soft-spoken. One of the first digs that he made in this race was about Trump and questioning whether he's a religion enough person. I thought that was very telling. Telling of the fact that these candidates are jockeying for the evangelical base.

Speaking of, Carson, obviously, is not the only person who is having to answer to and talk about Muslim Americans in this country. Donald Trump is continuing to face questions about the fact that he didn't correct a supporter who, at a town hall last week, basically called President Obama a Muslim. Listen to what Donald Trump had to say this morning on "The Today Show" about all of this.

BALDWIN: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have never had a problem with Muslims. You do have an individual problem where you have some radicals that are causing problems. I can be politically correct. Somebody said how can you say that.

CARSON: Please get involved. We now have over 500,000 donations and the money is coming in, but the pundits forgot about one thing. They become illegal and as illegals, they will be treated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: And I was on the campaign trail this weekend and caught up with Donald Trump and asked them in Iowa. Did you personally think that Muslim-Americans pose a danger to this country? His answer was very Trump-esque. He said, Muslims are great people. I love the Muslims. I think for people who are confused about why he won't drop this issue about whether or not the president is a Muslim, you know, you look at the poll numbers and 54 percent of Trump's supporters believe that Obama is a Muslim. So that's something that's going to factor in whenever Trump talks about this issue.

BALDWIN: And what Dr. Carson has said has been in the wake of Trump's comments, which I think just is stirring a bit more up in the political pot as it were. M.J. Lee, thank you so much.

[14:05:04] I want to stay on that vein and explore this a little bit further here. I have Kayleigh McEnany, who is with me. She's a Republican strategist and also a contributor at "The Blaze" and a supporter of Donald Trump, so thank you for being here. Harris Zafar is a national spokesman for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. So Harris is joining me on the phone. So wonderful having you both on.

Kayleigh, let me begin with you. I know that Dr. Carson wrote this in his 2012 book "America, The Beautiful". Let me just quote Dr. Carson. He wrote, "As a Christian, I am not the least bit offended by the beliefs of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons and so forth. In fact, I am delighted to know that they believe in something that is more likely to make them into a reasonable human being as long as they don't allow the religion to be distorted by those seeking power and wealth."

And so I know Trump is your guy, but as far as Dr. Carson is concerned, do you support what he said?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I actually haven't vowed my support for anyone. I support Ben Carson just like I support Donald Trump. And I support Ben Carson on this issue. Look, Ben Carson was very clear. His problem is with Sharia law and he said very clearly to The Hill, if the Muslim candidate disavowed Sharia law, they can run for president. I think that's a fair statement. Sharia law advocates cutting off one's hands if you steal. Sharia law advocates domestic violence. The European Human Rights Council has disavowed Sharia altogether, saying that it's antithetical to democracy. So I think it is very fair to say I have a problem with Sharia law, which is what Ben Carson was saying when you look at the words.

BALDWIN: Harris, I want to make sure I get you in. but let me just press you on - We mentioned Article VI of the U.S. Constitution a minute ago. Article VI, again, for those keeping score and who aren't as familiar, provides that "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." The First Amendment of the Constitution that Congress shall pass no law respecting and establishment of religion.

So, you know, our Constitution was developed to protect us, to prevent any sort of threat or thinking like this. So what -- would you argue that our founding fathers were wrong?

MCENANY: No, I think Ben Carson's statement is absolutely consistent with Article VI. He said I would not advocate. So this is Ben Carson's personal belief that he would not advocate for a Muslim president that did not fit the standards that he laid out to The Hill in the interview. So that's perfectly consistent with not developing a test for President of the United States.

BALDWIN: Harris, let me hear your voice and what you make of Kayleigh's point and Dr. Carson's point about Sharia law.

HARRIS ZAFAR, NATIONAL SPOKESMAN, AHMADIYYA MUSLIM COMMUNITY (via telephone): Thank you so much for having me on. This is beyond -- It doesn't matter how religious someone is. Ben Carson's views are not fact based and that's troubling for anyone wanting to run for the presidency. His views promote fear and misunderstanding (INAUDIBLE) Muslims, which is why we, within the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, invite Dr. Carson to a dialogue so he can learn more about the true Islam and about American-Muslims by going to the source, the Quran, and --

BALDWIN: What about the point about Sharia law?

HARRIS: That's what I was going to say. It's ignorant -- there's a reason why I dedicate a chapter in my book to Sharia law. The scripture talks about it and it say thas do not any specific form of government other than a magnificent one. When you judge between men, you judge with justice. Even the prophet said loyalty is a part of your faith. A Muslim living in America is required to be loyal to America. What's troubling for me is not only Ben Carson very clear unawareness and ignorance and bias towards Islam, but like you mentioned, as someone with a personal belief inconsistent with the U.S. constitution. It's no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office. He did not say a Muslim denouncing sharia can run for president. Maybe for Congress. His personal view is inconsistent with U.S. constitution and that's troubling because it slaps in the face Americans.

MCENANY: What Ben Carson was saying is what he did personally with his own faith. He was able to separate his Christian faith and say that's one thing. Kim Davis should issue the marriage license. He was able to separate one as an act of government and one is my personal faith. All he's saying is he wants a Muslim to be able to do the same. I disavow the portion of Sharia law that says I have to implement it in my public realm of duty. With that separation, he's OK with a Muslim president. That's a point you and I can agree on.

HARRIS: The difference is Ben Carson was not asked to disavow anything. He just said regardless of his views. What you're asking to disavow is something that doesn't exist in Islam. We can't look at the militants and extremists and say somehow they are representative of Islam. Those of us --

MCENANY: The reason he's asking --

HARRIS: Sharia does not promote any type of violence in religion. So there's no reason to disavow anything that doesn't exist. Let's stick to the truth.

BALDWIN: Here's my question. I have not seen Ben Carson on television today. It's one thing to read what he's said, but it's another to not come on. I am just wondering final thought to either of you, will he come forward in this day in age where no one is really saying I'm sorry. He feels like he doesn't need to apologize. But explain.

MCENANY: Absolutely, he has an interview this evening is so he is going to explain further. His clarification he will explain that initial statement.

BALDWIN: Thank you very much to you both.

Coming up next, chilling revelations about the final hours of a little girl 3 years of age murdered according to prosecutors because her mother's boyfriend thought she was a demon. They appeared in court for the first time. You'll see how emotional it got this morning.

Also Hillary Clinton bounces back in the polls and the vice president sending the strongest signal yet about his chances o of running against her. Hear what he now has to say.

And the pope coming to America. Many Americans will meet him face to face. Do you know what you're supposed to do? a little pope etiquette when you maybe are be in an elevator with Pope Francis. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:51] BALDWIN: This is CNN, I'm Brooke Baldwin. Just heartbreaking new details surfacing this morning as we learn more and more about the little girl once only known as Baby Doe. Bella Bond was just shy of her third birthday when her little body was discovered in a garbage bag washing ashore in the Boston Harbor.

Today we learn from prosecutors that Bella's body had been refrigerated while the mother and her boyfriend allegedly shot up heroin and remained high for several days before placing her body in a plastic bag and dumping it.

This morning for the very first time, Bella's mother and mother's boyfriend Michael McCarthy faced a judge. McCarthy is charged with Bella's murder. Bella's mother, Rachel Bond, is charged with accessory to murder after the fact. And emotions ran high in this packed courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You rot in hell. You rot in hell!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: "Rot in hell" shouted as that woman was escorted at. At one point during the proceedings, Bella's mother hung her head as the details of the death were read aloud in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOICE OF DAVID DEAKIN, ASSISTANT SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She went to her daughter and picked her up and told police she knew her daughter was dead. She asked Mr. McCarthy what he had done. He did not tell her, but he said she was a demon. Anyway, it was her time to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Both mom and mom's boyfriend are pleading not guilty.

So let's bring in former Los Angeles County prosecutor Loni Coombs and with me here in New York, CNN correspondent Jean Casarez. Jean, let me just begin with you. I mean, I don't know. I don't have words for the details -- the refrigeration, the demons, and the fact that the mom and mom's boyfriend were in these glass cases in the courtroom. Can you just walk through all the details?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well that's unusual, because normally they're not behind glass. Normally it's when there's a security risk. But it could be just what this jurisdiction in Massachusetts does.

But we fell in love with this little girl through that forensic image that was released in June. And prosecutors say that it was in May that one night little Bella didn't want to go to sleep and so McCarthy, defendant McCarthy now, said I'll go calm her down. I'll get her to sleep. And the mother allegedly didn't hear anything. Some time passed ,so decided I will go in and see what's happening. She saw Bella and her face was just very swollen and it was gray. She held her and realized that she was dead.

And she is now saying -- she's the one that's talking to police. She is now saying it was McCarthy that decided, well, let's put the little girl in the plastic bag in the refrigerator. Shot them up, as you said, both of them with drugs and then both of them allegedly went to the Boston Harbor, put the plastic bag in a duffel bag. But before that, put weights in it, which is a significant fact right there of consciousness of guilt, not wanting it to be seen by anyone. Obviously it floated to the shore.

But the excuse was they believed that she was possessed by demons. And a friend of the family who was ultimately responsible for this couple becoming defendants said that he was in the house when Bella was alive. She'd be put in the closet for up to an hour because she was possessed. BALDWIN: And they had two other kids that were taken away, correct?

CASAREZ: Department of Children and Families had two investigations on Bella after she was born that she was neglected. They found substantiaions of neglect, but things were done, case was closed. And now she's dead.

BALDWIN: All right, Loni, jump in. Because I know you come at this from a prosecutor's perspective. But I mean, with all these details, again allegations, but how the heck -- how do you -- would you even begin to defend either of these? I mean, is an insanity defense where you'd go?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER LOS ANGELES COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Well, I think for McCarthy, that looks like might be the basis. I mean, you have all this talk about demons and things. But let me be clear Mr. McCarthy's attorney came out right after the arraignment where he pled guilty and said, no, no, no, my client was not involved at all in any of this. He didn't even show know she was dead.

[14:20:00] The mother told him that she had been taken away by DCSF like her other children had been. And, yes, you're correct. She had had two other prior children in 2001 and 2006 who were taken away from her. Forever. Her parental rights were terminated.

So that's what the defendant is saying; as far as Mr. McCarthy saying I didn't know. I just thought the baby had been taken away like everyone else. I'm a recovering addict. And he has not made any statements himself to the police. So we have these statements from the mother who's saying it was all Mr. McCarthy who did it, and we have this lifelong friend who said that he also asked Mr. McCarthy did you do it and Mr. McCarthy told him, no, she's with DCSF. So we have these conflicting statements about what Mr. McCarthy did.

BALDWIN: And is that part of the strategy though to keep mom and mom's boyfriend separate so that both of them start to talk and point fingers against the other to try to reach some sort of truth?

COOMBS: Yes, absolutely. You want them working against each other. And at some point, because it is kind of he said, she said, the prosecution might end up using one of them as a witness. Now clearly -

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Because what evidence do you have, Loni?

COOMBS: Right. Exactly. Without the statement from the girlfriend, and that's why you see the prosecution right now filing the murder charge against the boyfriend because that's the evidence they have. And you might even see the girl -- the mother later claiming, hey, I shouldn't even be held accountable for the accessory after the fact because I was coerced. I was afraid. He threatened to kill me. So you could see a lot of movement in the charges even and the defenses on both of these two defendants.

BALDWIN: Just shy of her third birthday. No chance. Loni Coombs, thank you, and Jean Casarez, thank you so much as well.

Coming up next, many Americans getting ready to meet - or many hoping to meet face to face with Pope Francis as he touches down in the United States tomorrow for this historic trip. In fact, my own colleague Rosa Flores rode the papal plane and was blessed by him. So we're asking, what is the etiquette? What are the unspoken rules here? We'll break that down for you ahead.

Also Hillary Clinton is a real person, don't you know? And she also says she would be an outsider if she became president. Yep. Her reasons, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:29] BALDWIN: When the pope arrives tomorrow afternoon in the United States, it will be his very first trip here and tens of thousands of Americans are expected to come see the pontiff as he visits New York City and Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia. And my own colleague Rosa Flores actually was on the papal plane riding with him from Rome to Havana, met the pope for the first time.

Just a heads up, they are speaking in Spanish, but nonetheless, it was really a moment of a lifetime for her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (SPEAKING IN SPANISH)

POPE FRANCIS: (SPEAKING IN SPANISH)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Wow. Rosa then received a blessing from Pope Francis and he kissed her forehead. Right here with me is CNN religion commentator Father Edward Beck.

I have to say, when I saw that over the weekend, I immediately got on my iPhone and pinged her. I don't know where in the world she was, and the only response I got was "wow" with 18 exclamation points from Rosa.

But we're talking about etiquette, right, becausea lot of people, if they are lucky enough, will be able to meet the pope. Was that like -- can you reach out and touch Pope Francis and give him a little arm slap? Is that appropriate? Is that OK?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: Well, with this pope, it certainly is. He's very informal. And he eschews formality. So I think he enjoys as much personal contact as he can get actually.

BALDWIN: Is it -- So if you're in a crowd and you see the pope approach you, is it -- what's the appropriate way?

BECK: You should say Your Holiness or Most Holy Father. Those are the two terms, although this guy probably wouldn't mind Frank, to tell you the truth. But I mean, that's the official way, Your Holiness or Most Holy Father. But, again, this pope is really informal. He loves getting down with the people. He gets out of the Popemobile, he starts touching e everybody.

BALDWIN: Yes, I noticed on the plane, and we were talking about this in commercial break, Rosa pulled out a what she's saying is a Virgin of Guadalupe -

BECK: Prayer card.

BALDWIN: Prayer card.

BECK: Right, and she was going to give it to him as a gift. A lot of journalists on the plane have little gifts that they give to the pope. And he took it and he kind of surprised, he kissed it. And of course she's from Mexico, her heritage, and it's a very important saint, My Lady Guadalupe, in Mexico.

BALDWIN: In conversation with the pope, we're trying to help out the people.

BECK: All right, if you're lucky enough to meet the pope --

BALDWIN: If you're lucky enough to get to meet the pope, because he will be in several major cities, as we mentioned, and there will be throngs of people out wanting to say hello. What kind of conversation, if you get to have ten full seconds with him, what's OK to discuss?

BECK: Well, you could talk about soccer. He's a soccer fan, certainly. If you have pizza in your back pocket, he loves pizza. He could have a slice, certainly. He likes serious literature. He's a fan of Russian literature, Dostoevsky. He likes Italian cinema. He's a Fellini (ph) fan. So if you have an interest to being a cinephile, happen to be one, talk about cinema with him.

BALDWIN: But no television. Just quickly. I mean, this is a man who hasn't watched television in 25 years.

BECK: He actually made a promise to the Virgin Mary not to watch TV. Now we don't know why; we don't know if it was a distraction or he thought it was not enough deemed worthy for him on there, or whatever. But he hasn't watched it in 25 years and I don't think he's going to anytime soon.

BALDWIN: I have a feeling there's no changing his mind as he comes to the States anyway.

BECK: Probably not. Too bad, he will miss our coverage.

BALDWIN: I know. And there will be a lot of it, I can assure you.

[14:30:00] But it's exciting and so warranted. Father Edward Beck, thank you so much for coming on. I'm sure we'll be talking in the coming days. And of course CNN will have special coverage of all of the pope's visit all week long here in the United States. And make sure you watch our Special Report, "THE PEOPLE'S POPE" tomorrow night, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific.