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Afghanistan Controversy; Trump vs. Fiorina; Ben Carson Under Fire. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 21, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we continue on, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's begin with some pretty intense backlash growing right now after a presidential candidate who has been polling pretty high has said now a Muslim has no business being president of the United States. Just a short time ago, the country's leading Muslim advocacy group demanded that Dr. Ben Carson up and drop out now of the race for the White House.

This comes after Ben Carson said this on "Meet the Press":

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Today, CAIR -- that's the Council on American-Islamic Relations -- among others, pointed Article VI of the U.S. Constitution clearly stating that there shall be -- quote -- "no religious test for any public office."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIHAD AWAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CAIR: To assume and say that an American Muslim cannot be president of the United States, his views are inconsistent with the United States Constitution.

For that, we really urge politicians, the general public, community leaders, presidential candidates, to repudiate his views. And we ask Mr. Ben Carson to withdrawal from the presidential race because he's unfit to lead.

MAHDI BRAY, AMERICAN MUSLIM ALLIANCE: I heard some of his surrogates try to dress it up in terms of he's not trying to be politically correct. Well, he's wrong. He's politically wrong.

REV. GRAYLAN HAGLER, UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST: Right now, politicians are acting like thugs, thugs and demagogues. And it's time for it to stop. Ben Carson needs to leave the race and Donald Trump needs to leave the race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You heard the reverend there also throw Donald Trump in there. Carson's troubles come just days after Donald Trump received heat for not correcting a supporter who stood out in a town hall and made a statement initially before a question saying President Obama is Muslim. Here's more from Donald Trump today this morning on "The Today Show."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have never had a problem with Muslims. You do have an individual problem where you have some radicals that are causing problems.

And I can be politically correct. Somebody said, oh, how can you say that? And I said give me a break. It's all over the world. That's all we're talking about. You turn on the nightly news, you turn on the newscast, no matter where you are, you have a problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go straight to Dana Bash, our chief political correspondent, who joins me now from Washington.

And so here we are in the wake of the debate at the Reagan Presidential Library. You have Trump and Carson, they continue to poll well. Yes, Carson has dropped down to the number three spot, but still you have Trump up there with 24 percent, Carson with 14. Do you think that either campaign, I don't know, worries that folks may be turned off by the anti-Muslim comments, or is there a strategy here of not only not apologizing, but not backing down, specifically Dr. Carson?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For Dr. Carson, I'm not sure how much of a political strategy it is, but if you believe his business manager and very good friend, Armstrong Williams, who has been on a couple times, he has said that he is just saying what he believes, that this comes from his heart. He is a Christian. These are his beliefs and he doesn't think that it is right for a Muslim to be in the White House.

So take that for what it's worth. But then if you kind of look at it through a political prism, given probably the electorate that he is trying to appeal to, Brooke, I don't know necessarily think in the short-term it would hurt him. If he gets -- kind of goes all the way, if he were to get the nomination, it would be a very different conversation that we would be having because, sure, the Muslim community probably isn't big enough even in the general electorate to make much of a difference, but for everybody else who looks at it as a question of tolerance, perhaps.

On the issue of Donald Trump, he said point blank he didn't want to correct him because he thinks that his supporters like him, one of the main reasons they like him is because he doesn't give politically correct answers and doesn't say things like a politician. I think that answers that question.

BALDWIN: So, that answer both the questions for Carson and Trump, but what about on the flip side? You have a number of Democrats, what, Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, coming forward and commenting on this, Congressman Keith Ellison, Muslim member of Congress, all jumping on this.

BASH: That's right. And we should say, before we get to that, that some of Ben Carson's Republican competitors have also distanced themselves.

Scott Walker, the candidate, the governor of Wisconsin, has said he doesn't agree, mostly based on a tolerance level, Ted Cruz because he doesn't agree with his reading of the Constitution. But let's get to the Democrats. The Democratic front-runner was very, very quick to chime in. Here's what she said in a tweet.

She said, Hillary Clinton said: "Can a Muslim be president of the United States of America? In a word, yes. Now let's move on."

And you mentioned Keith Ellison. I have covered him for several years. He was the first Muslim member of Congress. And here's what he said in a statement. He said: "For Ben Carson, Donald Trump or any other Republican politician to suggest that someone of any faith is unfit for office is out of touch with who we are as a people. It's unimaginable that leading GOP presidential candidates are resorting to fear-mongering to benefit their campaigns and every American should be disturbed that these national figures are engaging in and tolerating blatant acts of religious bigotry."

[15:05:29]

And I should say that the other -- there are two Muslim members of Congress, both Democrats -- the other, Andre Carson, also said that Dr. Carson's words were bigoted. This is going to continue to reverberate, even as Dr. Carson is not backing down.

BALDWIN: Apparently he's addressing it later today. We will see what he says. Dana Bash, thank you very much.

BASH: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: The stories of what happened to that little girl found in a trash bag grow more horrific by the day.

We now know her name, Bella Bond. She was just shy of her third birthday when her body was discovered washed ashore in the Boston Harbor. Today, we learned from prosecutors that Bella's body had been refrigerated while the mother and the mother's boyfriend allegedly took heroin and remained high for several days before placing her body in a plastic bag and dumping her.

This morning for the first time, Bella's mother and the boyfriend, Michael McCarthy, faced this judge here. McCarthy is charged with Bella's murder and the mother, Rachelle Bond, is charged with accessory to murder after the fact. McCarthy is not Bella's biological father. The man who is Bella's father spoke out today with his own accusations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE AMOROSO, FATHER OF BELLA: When she told me Michael McCarthy was injecting a gram to three grams of heroin in her jugular vein every day for five months keeping her sedated, taking all of her psych meds and all of her money to make sure that she had no way of really being with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the father. Both mother and boyfriend are pleading not guilty.

So with the new details, let me bring in CNN legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Cevallos and CNN correspondent Jean Casarez.

So, this is awful every which way you read it.

Beginning with you, these details about the refrigerator and obviously we just heard the heroin and what happened? What are they saying?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are saying a lot. Michael McCarthy's attorney is saying -- that's the boyfriend -- he didn't do it, he's not guilty.

It's the mother that allegedly spoke to the police giving graphic details the prosecutors are now accepting to form the basis of their case, saying that, in May, little Bella wouldn't go to sleep. She didn't want to go to bed, so the boyfriend said, I will go in and quiet her down.

Prosecutors said that the mother said that a little bit later, she went into the room and saw Bella just lifeless. Her face was gray. The boyfriend allegedly saying, it's OK because she was a demon anyway.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: A demon?

CASAREZ: A demon.

And they executed a search warrant, Brooke, and they found there were manuals of demonization that were found, that the boyfriend was just really encompassed with all of this, believing there were ghosts in the house, et cetera, and so forth. But I also heard they believed -- I heard that in court today -- they believed that she was possessed.

BALDWIN: Mom too?

CASAREZ: Allegedly, maybe incorporating his beliefs.

And so Bella was dead. And then, according to prosecutors, it was the boyfriend that put her in a plastic bag, contractor's bag, put her in the refrigerator, then shot them both up with drugs for the next few days while Bella is in the refrigerator. And then they both took her to Boston Harbor, weighted down that bag with weights and threw her in the Boston Harbor.

And as you said -- I have got to add this, because you brought this up last time and it's so important. The Department of Child and Family Services not only launched an investigation into Bella shortly after she was born, two investigations that substantiated that there was neglect of Bella. But the case was closed. And a decade before that, she had lost -- the mother, now defendant -- had lost two children due to neglect.

BALDWIN: Two others.

It seems like -- and these are all allegations -- it seems like a slam dunk for the prosecution. But how do you take this with heroin and demons and refrigerating a body of a 3-year-old? How do you defend these people?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Let's start with the fact these are horrific allegations.

But take a step back. The gravamen of the commonwealth's case against this defendant comes from essentially one source, the words of one person. Who is that person? Is it a good samaritan? Is it somebody that found the body? It's the mom, who somehow allowed this to happen, who unquestionably faces liability on her own.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:10:05]

Wearing my defense hat, that's immediately how I circle the wagons in this case and attack the only -- the key evidence that is going to come from a witness that you can put on a stand and cross-examine with the fact that she is really the only narrative, the only source of a narrative against this defendant.

But let's take yet another step back. And I will remind everyone that a conviction can be had on the testimony of one witness, however questionable the credibility of that witness may be. It happens all the time.

BALDWIN: It's incredible.

CASAREZ: And they haven't determined a cause of death, but with the description of the mother that the child was lifeless and the face was just very swollen and gray in color, they are looking at suffocation at this point. Forensically, they're in the fifth day of their investigation at the prosecutor's...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We will stay on this horrible story and hope justice is sought. Jean Casarez and Danny Cevallos, thank you both very much.

Next here, we will bring in a panel to debate, as we mentioned at the top of the show, Dr. Ben Carson's remark about Muslims not being president. We will talk about apologies or lack thereof in politics these days, so that's coming up.

Also ahead, Carly Fiorina soaring in CNN's new poll. But Donald Trump says she destroyed Hewlett-Packard when she was CEO. We will talk live with one business expert who says, you know what, Donald Trump is right.

And Lady Gaga's new hit takes on a very serious issue against women on college campuses nationwide and the woman who wrote the song, the legendary Diane Warren, joins me live on what inspired her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:53]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

As we mentioned at the top of the hour, Dr. Ben Carson doubling down on his remark that he would not vote for a Muslim running for president.

Let's bring in Pax Hart. He's a Donald Trump supporter and an I.T. specialist at a bank. And also with me, CNN political commentator Charles Blow, who writes opinion pieces for "The New York Times."

So wonderful to have both of you on.

PAX HART, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: It's great to be here.

BALDWIN: To you, sir, first. I know Trump is your guy. But you're a Republican. And so when you hear Dr. Carson, who normally is typically fairly soft-spoken and thoughtful in what he says, says this about no Muslim should be president, do you support that?

HART: I was shocked when he said that.

I was like, what are you doing? When he went back on to it the next day and he gave his exegesis of what he actually meant, he was saying that there are components of Sharia law which are inconsistent with the U.S. Constitution.

And so if you're a strict adherent to Sharia law, then, yes, that's going to be a problem. And, OK, I get that explanation, because we're seeing the exact same thing going on where you have an elected official trying to impose their religious interpretation of their faith onto U.S. citizens.

We have that going on in Kentucky right now. So, all that said, when he said this comment, you can't just blurt that out something like that in this day and age that then needs a whole -- a 10-page explanation for what you actually meant. I think if people actually got what he was saying, they would say, well, yes, we do have a separation of church and state here. And I think most Americans would value that. I think that's the hallmark of where we are. BALDWIN: I want you to weigh in, but I will say I'm not a lawyer. But I reached out to a very smart lawyer today just to go through two parts about the Constitution. One, as we mentioned, is Article VI, provides that "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." That's one piece of this. Two, the First Amendment provides that Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion.

The founders saw this type of thinking that we're hearing from Dr. Carson as a threat to our system. Do you see it that way?

HART: I think the point that he was making -- and I'm not in the guy's head -- and I still -- I don't really think his -- I wouldn't have even gone here if I was him.

I think he's kind of going to an extreme here. That's just personally. We need in this country -- and I think what is an incredibly important part of this country is that if you are an elected official, if you're serving the American public, your faith is private. It's going to inform your morality, whatever.

But I think what he was implying was that if you were a strict adherent to Sharia law, it's your obligation to use your position to advance the tenets of Islam. And that, I completely disagree with.

BALDWIN: You're respectfully listening. When you hear his perspective -- and again, we can't comment because we don't have Dr. Carson sitting with us.

(CROSSTALK)

CHARLES BLOW, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Exactly.

Well, first off on Dr. Carson, I think a lot of what he's -- this is not the first thing he said that is incredibly inflammatory, hurtful to a lot of people. I think you have to think about all the children who are Muslim children born here, American children who are listening to someone say that, because of your faith, because of where you go to worship, whatever day you worship out of the week or if you worship at home, that there's no way, me not even knowing your character, me not even knowing anything about you, that I would ever support you.

That's the very definition of prejudice and that's not something that we would want in any political candidate for president of the United States who has to govern everybody.

The second thing is that Dr. Carson likes to -- he never raises his voice, so it kind of disarms a lot of what he says. But being soft- spoken is not the same as being well-spoken. And he's very often not well-spoken at all and he says very dangerous things.

I think your point about what the Constitution and what the framework of the Constitution had in mind is really important, because they were not thinking about Sharia law. They were thinking about the Christian faith and not having that necessary overtake what government was doing. [15:20:04]

I think that, respectfully, a lot of Republicans actually do now say that their faith drives their decision-making and that it should drive their decision-making.

That becomes problematic with what the founders envisioned about what government should be.

BALDWIN: It's why it goes back to our founding fathers and the Constitution so much.

Let me stay with you, because we got in a huge discussion this morning. When you look at candidates these days, once upon a time when somebody would say something that would be controversial, then the next step would be sort of an apology, a sort of apology.

Now not only are people not apologizing, they are coming back and doubling down and tripling down. I'm wondering, why do you think that is? You cover...

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: I don't know exactly why it is. All I know is, it's a terrible mistake, because the first -- the comment itself is damaging enough.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: For you not to even recognize that you have done something wrong or recognize it and refuse to apologize for it, I think people have an even harder time forgiving, because we all do things wrong. We all say things wrong, off-color.

BALDWIN: But it's not just Carson. And it not just Republicans. It's Democrats as well.

But, listen, I mean, Donald Trump, he is like Mr. I'm Not Going to Apologize.

BLOW: I think that's a false equivalency.

Find the people on the Democratic side who are doing exactly what Carson is doing right now.

(CROSSTALK)

HART: Hillary Clinton was considering anybody who opposed her position on Planned Parenthood to terrorists. This is inflammatory rhetoric coming out of Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: This is what you would like about a Donald Trump, correct?

(CROSSTALK)

HART: Well, however, but the situation here that we're having this week about Donald Trump, this one is -- this wasn't something that came directly out of his mouth.

Ben Carson, Hillary Clinton, these are statements coming directly out of the candidates' mouth. Donald Trump is being grilled for...

BALDWIN: Not correcting someone in a crowd asking a question.

(CROSSTALK)

HART: Not correcting a random Joe in the crowd.

BALDWIN: You're right. It's different. It's different.

HART: Yes.

BLOW: Well, he's ripped for that now.

But I think, if you look over the record of what he has said, particularly on social media, which I don't quite understand that, why he does that in the middle of the night.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He's got a lot of time on his hands.

HART: Like many of us do.

BLOW: It's incredible. And I think people kind of pooh-pooh it and say it is not that inflammatory. But in fact it is. I think it's hurtful to people. And I think we register that on some level as a coarsening of how our political discourse is developing.

BALDWIN: Charles Blow, don't go too far. We're bringing you back to talk about now -- she's number two in the polls, Carly Fiorina.

And, Pax Hart, thank you so much.

HART: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Great to hear your perspective as well.

Next here, the Pentagon now responding to a damning report that U.S. soldiers were told to ignore cases of sexual abuse by Afghan police. We will talk to Jake Tapper about this one today.

Plus, as we mentioned, Carly Fiorina now rockets into second place among Republicans in a brand-new CNN/ORC poll. But is Donald Trump right for saying she destroyed Hewlett-Packard? We will fact-check that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:11]

BALDWIN: Deeply disturbing allegations today that U.S. troops in Afghanistan were instructed to essentially turn a blind eye to Afghan security forces raping children even on military bases that were under U.S. control.

This is powerful reporting this morning coming in from "The New York Times" in part reporting that: "Rampant sexual abuse of children has long been a problem in Afghanistan, particularly among armed commanders who dominate much of the rural landscape and can bully the population. The practice is called bacha bazi, literally boy play, and American soldiers and Marines have been instructed not to intervene."

The White House was actually asked about this at today's briefing. Here's the response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Just let me say that the United States is deeply concerned about the safety and welfare of Afghan boys who may be exploited by members of the Afghan national security and defense forces. This form of sexual exploitation violates Afghan law and Afghanistan's international obligations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in our chief Washington correspondent and host of "THE LEAD," Jake Tapper.

I read this first thing this morning and I have even talked to one of the people who is mentioned in the piece who lost his son over there. My question then is, when you hear Josh Earnest, the White House didn't address whether U.S. troops were actually told not to intervene. What is true? Were they told to look the other way?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: A lot of the response from the military and the government has to do with the idea and the Obama administration has to do with the idea that there are no explicit rules, no specific order along those lines.

But this is where you get more into the nuance. I spoke with former Captain Dan Quinn, who is also quoted in the piece. He said that he was relieved of his command after he got into a fight, a physical fight with one of these Afghan commanders who was sexually abusing a young boy, raping a young boy.

And then he was punished. He's now out of the Army. And he says it was really a matter of you take this to your commanders and they say, I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be difficult to deal with, but that's a matter, a law enforcement matter for the Afghans. That's not for us to get involved in. So, sorry you have to deal with it on the ground, but that's not our role there, not necessarily that it's an order given by the secretary of defense or the Joint Chiefs, but that's how it's being initiated.

Now, I have to tell you, Brooke, I wrote that book about Afghanistan. And I heard similar stories. In fact, I heard about a physician assistant with the Navy who was working on a provisional -- provincial, rather, reconstruction team. That's one of these groups to help with nation-building essentially. And he had to deal with the medical ramifications of, every Thursday night, powerful men in a village sexually abusing boys and weaker young men on Thursday nights when they would get drunk on fermented wine. And it was something, he dealt with the medical ramifications of it.

But then, as now, it was essentially considered to be an Afghan law enforcement matter.