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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

"Baby Doe's" Murder; GOP Candidates' Muslim Comments; Kentucky Clerk Alters Forms. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 21, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:12] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We're going to begin with breaking news in this heartbreaking case of the little girl we once only knew as "Baby Doe." But now we know her as Bella Bond, who was just shy of her 3rd birthday when she died. And just a short time ago, behind glass walls, her mother and her mother's boyfriend faced a judge and a packed courtroom. His name is Michael McCarthy, and he's charged with Bella's murder. He is not her biological father. Bella's mother's name is Rachelle Bond, and she is charged as an accessory after the fact. She broke down crying in court as the prosecutor unveiled graphic details of the moments that led up to her daughter's death and afterwards. Bella's body was found on a rocky shoreline in the Boston Harbor back in June. She was wrapped in a trash bag. A friend who had lived with the couple briefly provided the crucial tip. Prosecutors say when he asked Rachelle about her baby, Bella, she admitted that the baby was dead. Listen in to what the prosecutor said in open court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID DEAKIN, ASSISTANT SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The Massachusetts State Police came to Roxbury District Court and interviewed him. And it was then that he said that he had lived with Mr. McCarthy and Ms. Bond in the late winter or early spring for approximately one to two weeks, that he had moved out because he was appalled by their treatment of her. He indicated that both of them would yell at her, would demean her. He indicated that on one occasion, he saw Ms. Bond spank her daughter.

But what troubled him the most was that both of them, but particularly Mr. McCarthy, had on at least two occasions locked the girl in a closet for between 30 minutes and an hour and - while she screamed to be let out. And Mr. McCarthy and Ms. Bond told the lifelong friend that she was possessed by demons, and that that was the reason that she required that type of punishment.

The lifelong friend confirmed that over the past two years or so Mr. McCarthy had become very interested in the occult, purported to see demons, purported to see ghosts and purported to be able to exorcise demons and exorcise ghosts.

Massachusetts State Police then sought and obtained a search warrant for the home. Among other things found there were books on demons and demonology. Although nothing else was recorded. At this time - well, let me continue. Police then, after executing the search warrant, interviewed both Ms. Bond and Mr. McCarthy. Ms. Bond indicated that one night when Bella had - at approximately 11:30, she believed it to have been late May before Mr. (ph) Bond's birthday on May 29th, Bella was unwilling to go to bed and was unruly. Mr. McCarthy said that he would go into her back bedroom and try to calm her down.

From what - Ms. Bond then didn't hear any noise for some time from the back bedroom and went in to check what was going on. She found Mr. McCarthy standing over Bella, who was on a bed, which the mattress was on the floor - standing over Bella with his hand near the abdomen. And when Ms. Bond looked at Bella, her head appeared to her to be swollen and her face was gray. She went to the daughter and picked her up and she told police that she knew at that moment that her daughter was dead. She asked Mr. McCarthy what he had done, and he did not tell her, but he said she was a demon anyway. It was her time to die.

At that time, Ms. Bond panicked, didn't know what to do. She reports that Mr. McCarthy told her that if she reported anything to police or any authorities that he or his friends would kill her. And at that time not knowing what to do, she allowed Mr. McCarthy to get a contractor bag. She presumed that he put Bella's body in the bag, which he then put in the refrigerator and she assumed that because the body was no longer in the back bedroom -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope you rot in hell (INAUDIBLE)! You rot in hell, you (INAUDIBLE) rot in hell!

[12:05:00] DEAKIN: Ms. Bond - Ms. Bond reports that Mr. McCarthy then bought - brought a large quantity of heroin into the apartment, injected it into her neck. We're trying to figure out whether that was with or without her consent. But in any event, it appears that they both became highly intoxicated for a period of several days or perhaps longer. Eventually, Mr. McCarthy told Ms. Bond that they would take the girl's body and dump it in Boston Harbor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in CNN's Jean Casarez and HLN legal analyst and defense attorney Joey Jackson.

And, Jean, also as an attorney, listening to this hearing, those last few details that we just heard, the allegation that this baby was put in a contractor bag and put in a refrigerator while these two were high for several days on heroin. In the refrigerator, the dead child's body is sitting.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And the mother put the child in the refrigerator. She did that. As we just heard from the prosecutor, she went into the bedroom, she realized my daughter is dead. The father said, well, she was a demon anyway, she was demonized, and then it was the mother that took her and put her into the refrigerator in a plastic bag.

BANFIELD: I heard that differently. I heard she was unaware of the contractor bag and the refrigeration placement. But this notion, Joey, that - that they would be high for three days with the dead baby in the refrigerator, while it's appalling to hear it, does it make a difference in the actual murder case against Mr. McCarthy and the accessory case against the mother?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what will happen is this. In terms of the father, obviously what the prosecution is going to establish is the intent, and, of course, that fact that they actually engaged in the murder. Now, what the defense will be, absent him saying it wasn't me, I have no idea what occurred here, which, I think, will fail, we may be looking at some kind of mental incapacity. I'm certain that there will be a health evaluation done as to him to establish, what is his state of mind? What normal individual, under normal circumstances, nothing normal about this case, but would even think about saying there are demons in you and, you know, she needed to be punished in this way. So I think you could be looking towards that kind of defense.

In terms of the mother being an accessory after the fact, now, you know, it's punishable by seven years in jail, and she's have her own defenses. One of which might be that she was under duress and under really the stress of coercion, fearful of what he, the boyfriend, who killed her daughter, might do to her.

CASAREZ: (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: So the witness is going to be critical, this person, because this is a he said/she said story, but for the fact that the police have not charged her summarily.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: But there is this witness who lived there, who says, and I'm not sure if it's a he or she but a long family friend.

CASAREZ: It's a he.

BANFIELD: And he?

CASAREZ: Uh-huh.

BANFIELD: Who says that there were admissions made to him from this man, McCarthy.

CASAREZ: Well, he's really the one that brought this to light because the mother and the boyfriend were on their way to the hospital and this friend said, it's so wonderful that you're off drugs now, you're going to get your daughter back from Department of Children and Family. She said, no, my daughter's dead. She told him. He went to the sister. They looked up online. They saw the picture of that beautiful forensic image of Bella that the country was introduced to 85 days ago in June, and that's when they realized, that's Bella.

JACKSON: Yes.

CASAREZ: And the sister went to the Boston Police Department. BANFIELD: So to be really clear, this family friend, and I believe

it's of Mr. McCarthy. It's a long-time family friend of the person who is charged in this murder.

CASAREZ: That is correct, of the McCarthys. Yes.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: There has been no admission from Mr. McCarthy that I did this. There was no admission to this family friend, I'm responsible for this. I did it. In fact, there were texts back and forth saying -

CASAREZ: No, there were texts saying the child was alive at the Department of Children and Families.

BANFIELD: At the department. So there's no admission to anyone at this point. It's really still a he said/she said, and yet the police don't believe it.

JACKSON: No.

CASAREZ: But they -

BANFIELD: Joey, it's odd.

JACKSON: It absolutely is odd. And, of course, if he's saying - he's inconsistent things, with is not in exactly unusual in any instance like this, number one, that there may be finger pointing as between the boyfriend and as between the mother. And, number two, as to him saying, OK, I needed to punch her or she needed to die because she was possess, and then, of course, simultaneously saying, I don't know exactly how this happened, that could cut both ways, too. It could show consciousness of guilt, as could the discarding of the child after the fact -

BANFIELD: Well -

JACKSON: Or it could show that he has a diminished mental capacity, which the defense may be going.

BANFIELD: Any mental - any diminished mental cap - any kind of insanity defense, if that is an effort at any point to be mounted, you take the weights (ph) -

CASAREZ: You take the timeline -

BANFIELD: And the timeline -

CASAREZ: And that timeline is critical here.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: And the hiding of the body and that's evidence that you know something's wrong and you're hiding what you've done.

CASAREZ: And there's no cause of death yet. No cause of death. JACKSON: Right.

CASAREZ: But yet the mother said the face was bloat and red when she walked into that room.

BANFIELD: Jean Casarez, Joey Jackson, thank you. We'll continue to follow this as we get more awful details on this case. Thank you both.

[12:10:01] We're going to move now to politics. There's a hypothetical question that's getting a lot of attention in the GOP candidate field. Should a Muslim be elected president? Ben Carson says definitively no. And now there are calls for him to get out of the race for the White House.

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BANFIELD: Today, there's a little more breathing room for Democratic presidential frontrunner Hillary Clinton and potentially a lot more, too. I want you to take a look at a brand new CNN/ORC poll of Democratic nationwide voters. Forty-two percent now say they are in Hillary Clinton's camp, 24 percent say they choose Bernie Sanders instead, and 22 percent say Vice President Joe Biden, who, as you know, has not even entered the race, nor are we sure that he will.

Compare this to two weeks earlier. The Clinton/Sanders gap has swelled from 10 points to 18 points. And if Joe Biden doesn't run, Hillary Clinton surges more than doubling Sanders' numbers, in fact, so big differences there. Here, too, she's widened the gap in the past two week.

So switch over to the Republican side. Our new poll shows what a difference a debate can make. Carly Fiorina now firmly in second place, neck and neck with Ben Carson. Before last week's showdown, wow, she was pulling a mere 3 percent. And not coincidentally, 52 percent of Republican voters who tuned in or logged on throughout - or thought that Fiorina had outdebated her GOP rivals. Fourteen percent said that they thought Marco Rubio had won that debate, but just 11 percent thought that Donald Trump had actually prevailed in the debate.

[12:15:04] So much for all the numbers. A bit head-shaking but the newest controversy isn't. It's stirring up the Republican contest even more and it is over Muslims, so-called radical Islam and the Constitution. It starred with Ben comment - or Ben Carson's comments yesterday on "Meet the Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This morning on CNN's "New Day," a top Carson surrogate turned to the Constitution for support. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, BEN CARSON'S BUSINESS MANAGER: This is why he's not a politician. This is why he's not trying to be politically correct. This is America. It's a place of freedom of speech.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": And freedom of religion.

WILLIAMS: You express what you believe and how you feel.

CAMEROTA: I mean and - and freedom of religion.

WILLIAMS: No, this is not an issue - it is not an issue of religion to Dr. Carson. This is on the issue of one's belief system. Everything is not about winning the White House for him. It's about standing up for what he believes in, telling the truth, even if it makes CNN and others uncomfortable, it is what he believes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. Freedom of speech, no question, a sacred liberty, but before we go any further, here is what the Constitution actually does say specifically about religion and public office. Let's read along.

"Senators and representatives and the members of the several state legislators and all executive and judicial officers shall be bound by oath or affirmation, but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Period. Period. For that reason, the Council on American-Islamic Relations is demanding that Dr. Carson quit the race for president. The nation's largest Muslim civil rights group spoke to reporters last hour in Washington. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIHAD AWAD, NATL. EXEC. DIR., COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Whether you're a Christian, you're Jewish, you're a Muslim, you're a Catholic, you're black, you're brown, you're right, if you are born in this country, if you are upholding the Constitution, if you have the vision, if you are fit to lead, you can lead irrespective of your faith tradition. Not long ago some people thought that a catholic cannot be a president, an African-American cannot be a president. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I know what you're probably thinking, what does Donald Trump think of all of this. Asked whether he'd be comfortable with a Muslim president, Trump told NBC, and I will quote, "some people have said it already happened." Let that sink in. Which echoes last week's New Hampshire event where Donald Trump did not correct a supporter who wrongly said that President Obama is Muslim and that Muslims, in general, are a problem. About that, though, Donald Trump said this on NBC's "Today" show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): I assume, Savannah, that he was talking about radical Islam. And, again, no matter where you turn, you're reading about it and you're seeing about - seeing it. It's an amazing problem. It's a very big problem.

Now, I fully understand the Muslims are great people and I have many friends and I have - and they're great friends and, by the way, they're concerned with radical Islam, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So I want to open this up now to my guest. Dean Obeidallah is a "Daily Beast" contributor and a Sirius XM radio host, and, budum bum, a Muslim and a comedian, so this should be good. Sitting next to him, Haroon Moghul, who is a senior correspondent for religiousdispatches.org and a fellow with the institute for social policy and understanding. And joining us on the telephone, Jeffrey Lord is a CNN political commentator, former White House political director for President Reagan and supporter of Donald Trump.

Jeffrey, first to you.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Calls for Dr. Carson to step down, quit the race for those kinds of comments. What do you think?

LORD: Well, two things. Number one, Dr. Carson - I like Dr. Carson, I respect him, but he is quite clearly absolutely wrong. You read the section of the Constitution. That is absolutely correct. And that it is, and period. I would add one thing, Ashleigh. I was a big JFK fan when I was a kid. And I just want to read two sentences from a speech he gave on September 12, 1960, to a group of protestant ministers in Houston, Texas, and they are, "but let me stress again that these are my views, for contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president (INAUDIBLE) be a candidate. I do not speak for my church on public matters and the church does not speak for me." That was well-said then. That should be said now. Donald Trump agrees with that kind of thing. I'm sure as he's made clear. There is a - there is an Islamic extremist problem, but most assuredly there is no religious test to be president, period.

[12:20:04] BANFIELD: Yes. Gentlemen, I think I read something very similar in a column that you wrote actually -

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Yes.

BANFIELD: Regarding JFK and the issue of a catholic president. There was much ado about that back then.

OBEIDALLAH: True.

BANFIELD: Is it similar now to what it was then, though, or is there something different? And I'll start with you, Dean. OBEIDALLAH: I think there's different. And I can just put this in perspective. It's been some week for Muslims. We went from Ahmed Mohamed being arrested, the 14-year-old, to Donald Trump not standing up to bigotry. Then to saying he loves us, which I've got that going for me now, Trump loves me.

BANFIELD: I knew you'd make it funny.

OBEIDALLAH: Ben Carson saying I can't and Haroon, we can't run for president because of our faith. I'm happy to hear Jeffrey Lord and other people on the right say, he's wrong. I mean as Muslims, we could use a hug about now. It's been a roller coaster. But what - what I really like, Jeffrey Lord read from that speech. There was another line in that speech that President Kennedy gave when he was a candidate in 1960 where he said, "today I may be the victim but tomorrow it may be you, till the whole fabric of a harmonious society is ripped apart." And that's what this is going to. what Ben Carson is doing, there's no candidate who's Muslim running. What he's saying, stoking the flames of distrust and fear about us.

BANFIELD: What - what's strange about this, apart from the issue of - of , you know, cascading anyone for their religion if they're running for high office. What's strange about it is that typically extreme right conservatives are strict constructionists. They don't mess with the Constitution. And, in fact, when asked, Dr. Carson, when Chuck Todd asked him, "so do you believe that Islam is consistent with the Constitution," he said, "no, I do not. I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that." It's sort of ironic. The whole thing doesn't make any sense because the Constitution says you have to.

HAROON MOGHUL, SR. CORRESPONDENT, RELIGIONDISPATCHES.ORG: Yes, they're - they're playing a game. Unfortunately, that's what this is. I mean by his own logic, Ben Carson should be disqualified from the office of president because he's introducing a religious - he's doing what he claims Muslims are alleging doing, even though Muslims serve in governments in elected capacity, non-elected capacities, and have for a very long time and they're not trying to overthrow the government. So he's creating a problem in his mind and then running with it. So that's a problem.

BANFIELD: Yes, Jeffrey, is this going to make any difference in the race? I mean we've seen all sorts of, you know, hyperbole and vitriol tossed about and it doesn't seem to have any effect, other than it seems positive on occasion, at least for Donald Trump. Is this going to have any effect on - on Ben Carson's numbers?

LORD: Well, there is - there is a problem. I mean I - I do think we need to be honest about this. I mean the impression with the American people is that there is a problem with Islamic extremists. And that carries over, for better or for worse, for worse I would say, to the larger Muslim population. It's not fair. However, and I think the Muslim population has to speak to this.

I will say this, I don't think it's wise to be calling for Dr. Carson to apologize. I think then we get into political correctness. And if he believes this, he should go out there and, you know, and speak up on it.

BANFIELD: So do you -

LORD: But let's remember that this whole business of Obama is a Muslim, Politico documented back in - and I have the article in front of me - in 2008 that this was first coming from Hillary Clinton's campaign and then she was attacked by Barack Obama's campaign manager who accused the Clinton campaign - and I'm reading exactly here - "of the most shameful offensive fearmongering we've seen from either party in this election," and that was because she - her supporters sent out a photograph of Senator Obama dressed as a Somali elder on a visit to Kenya, and the Clinton campaign more or less brushed by it according to this article and didn't answer the question. So this originated with Hillary Clinton.

BANFIELD: I want you - I want Dean to answer - OK, well, I what Dean to answer what you said, that the Muslim community needs to answer for the extreme - for Muslim extremism. And listen -

OBEIDALLAH: Right.

BANFIELD: Donald Trump makes a point when he says it wasn't Sweden that attacked America on 9/11.

OBEIDALLAH: That's accurate and is one of the few accurate things we heard from Trump. He's right about that. The reality is, though, I think perhaps this is an opportunity to have this conversation. If Ben Carson was the only person saying this, it would be different. We could marginalize his voice like Paula Deen and then he gets invited on "Dancing with the Stars" at some point.

But the reality is, though, polls recently showed only 25 percent of Americans have a positive view of Islam. So we're a small population. We're 2 percent. We're out there doing what we can to make it clear to our fellow Americans that we stand with you against the terrorists. We need more of us. Maybe we have to have more children. That's part of it. But on some level, I think that we have to be in the media more, as much as possible, and the challenge is getting into the media being a positive image of a Muslim, as opposed to being a scary one, and they suck up all the media time for us.

BANFIELD: Yes. All right, I have to leave it there, but I appreciate everybody's perspective on this. Thank you, Haroon and Dean and Jeffrey as well, via telephone for us. Thank you so much.

A week after Kentucky clerk Kim Davis returned to work, we got an update, and you knew we'd have one, from the only deputy who has been willing to go ahead and issue those same-sex marriage licenses. His concern to the judge is that Ms. Davis is backing off her promise not to get in his way or the clerk's way. She's getting her own accommodation, but can she do that?

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[12:28:29] BANFIELD: In Kentucky, that county clerk who went to jail for contempt of court because she didn't want to issue those marriage licenses to same-sex couples, well, you know, there's a possibility she could go right back in the slammer because it turns out that Kim Davis has now ordered her deputy, her deputy clerk, to alter those actual documents that form the licenses. Take a peek. This is the Kentucky marriage license form. This is used by clerks across that state, with an area for the clerk to place her name or his name, the name of the county, and the name and the title of a deputy clerk that goes ahead to issue that license.

But look at this actual license that was issued last week after Kim Davis returned to work. There's a bunch of stuff crossed out. Any references to the county, the clerk, or the clerk's name, crossed out, and, instead, using, "pursuant to a federal court order," end quote, where the clerk's name should be. And only initialing the form, not signing it, and replacing the official title with a notary public seal.

That's different. Is that legal? The clerk had asked the state to change the forms, wanted all that done, you know, the official route. Maybe the governor or the legislature. But nobody was going to do that. So it seems that she single-handedly just went ahead and did it on her own. Is that legal? Joey Jackson and Danny Cevallos might know the answer. They're back.

[12:30:00] Guys, I thought that forms are important when it comes to the business of the state, the business of the county. It's why the governor of that state actually re-issued those forms after the Supreme Court came down with its decision.