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Reviewing Pope Francis at the White House.Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 23, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: But this was the Pope's moment. And when he spoke, the hush really became almost a predictable silence of intensity. The effusive nature of this can't be understated. There they are out on the balcony. You hear the crowd now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: From here they'll go -- the Pope will sign the official guest book at the White House, and then they will meet privately in the Oval Office.

We're joined by Bishop Christopher Coyne, also Delia Gallagher, our CNN Vatican correspondent.

Bishop, in terms of what you heard from this Pope this morning, how did -- how did he sound to you?

BISHOP CHRISTOPHER COYNE, BURLINGTON, VERMONT: Well, he sounded strong. But I thought very distinctive. But also, I think once again, he sounded the general themes, the general encouragement. Without getting down into policy. I mean, that's, I think, what you're going to see over the next few days, that he's going to encourage us to a particular kind of themes of justice, themes of the environment, themes of immigration. And then allow -- will not get deep down mining into policy issues because that's where the weeds are.

COOPER: He's going to be meeting also with bishops later today.

COYNE: Yes, and I have no idea what he's going to say at this point, but I -- from what I've heard and from other visits to bishops around the world, he's going to be both encouraging and challenging. That he's going to encourage us as brother priests, brother bishops, but he's also going to challenge us to particular -- you know, particular things as our chief pastor.

COOPER: Delia Gallagher, you've heard this Pope speak a lot. What did you make of what he said?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I thought it was interesting. I mean, he went right in and outlined all of the points that we've been talking about and that we expected him to make right away in this welcome speech, as it were, you know.

COOPER: Immediately bring up immigration.

GALLAGHER: He went into everything. He went into immigration and possibly also in the order in which he thinks it might be important. Immigration, marriage. He talked about supporting the institution of marriage, religious liberty, climate and then the economy. So really comprehensive. I mean, just got it all in there -- in that kind of encouraging sort of way. But those are all the top issues. I mean, I think we'll be hearing more about all of that. That was kind of the outline.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And John King and Maria over there talking about the political context of all of this. The president was almost more political than the Pope. But let's not forget that the fastest growing part of the Catholic Church in the United States is amongst the Hispanic and Latino community -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, just a bit on the scene, I'll make the point that others have made before me that I think both men quickly got to the political or the policy points depending on whether you think it's politics or not, I guess, on your perspective.

Marriage is an issue as Delia just noted which the Pope has a disagreement with this White House. Religious liberty is an issue in which the Pope and the Vatican are somewhat concerned that the administration, you know, wants -- will not act boldly enough to protect those who say, may not want to provide services to a gay wedding. And so there's some tensions there. But on most of the other issues, the Pope is in agreement with the president.

Just a bit on the stage, I covered the White House for 9 1/2 years and you're always excited when you got to go to a big event on the South Lawn, and I've never seen an event of this size, 11,000 plus people there. You have the Marine band. You have the Color Guard. You have the beautiful South Portico of the presidential mansion behind you, and you're looking out at the Mall and the Washington Monument.

It's such a great stage of America's democracy. And I think on this day also a great altar for the Pope to deliver his first welcoming message to the people of the United States. So there is a lot of politics and policy to chew over, but I just think the scene here today is something that I just find remarkable.

GALLAGHER: And can I just chime in on what you mentioned, Christiane, about the focus on the Hispanic community? You know, today a majority of Hispanic adults identify as Catholic. And the majority of those speak Spanish. So the pride among Hispanic Catholics but frankly the Latino population as a whole today I think they could not be prouder.

The other point I would make is his focus on immigration. One of the greatest speeches that he has made or at least that was so compelling to everybody who's been fighting for immigration was this speech that he made at the island of Lampedusa which is south -- an island that is south of Italy when there was the issue of all of these migrants from Africa.

And he talked about how we have to focus again on the least among us. He told us to avoid anesthesia of the heart. He talked about condemn the globalization of indifference. So I think for that and Latinos in this country incredibly compelling.

COOPER: We should also point out, just for our viewers who are watching, the other big event this morning that we're going to see after the private meeting between the Pope and the president, the Holy Father is going to load into the Popemobile, departing the south grounds via the southwest gate for a parade, and there are thousands of people, we believe, who have already lined the streets.

[10:05:13] Let's take a look, in fact, out on the streets. There you see some of the crowds who have come out very early in the morning, hoping to get a prime spot. More people, no doubt, will be arriving. This Pope is somewhat off schedule already, about probably an hour or so or maybe 40 minutes behind schedule. But may be able to make up some of that. But those crowds are certainly happy to wait.

It is a glorious day here in Washington. A lovely day to be standing outside waiting to try to get a glimpse of this Pope. As he swing by in the Popemobile this will be the first time we've actually seen him in the so-called Popemobile in the United States.

AMANPOUR: And as you can imagine, with all greatly anticipated visitors, the crowds were out, you know, from before dawn. I mean, it was dark when they started to line up and come to those barricades. There's so many streets in Washington that are closed off. There's, you know, some concern as to whether the Metro, the underground service, will be able to handle everything.

And so there's quite a lot of logistical sort of, you know, heavyweight being thrown at this to make sure it all goes off incredibly smoothly. And I think, you know, one of the things that we have not spoken about this morning, but it is a very important thing for American Catholics and Catholics all over the world, and it has sort of, you know, been -- the wrong word is inspiration -- but the reason for a lot of flight from the Catholic Church is this ongoing social abuse scandal. And the Pope is not expected to raise it very prominently while he's here.

And I wonder, Bishop, whether you know whether he will meet with victims, what he might say to the bishops when he has his, you know, talk with them, not just the set piece speech that he's going to have, which he probably will bring it up, but what will he say? Because it really walloped the American Catholic Church practically more than any other church.

COYNE: Well, from what I've been told, there is a plan for him to meet with victims in Philadelphia. And I don't know the timeframe on that. But I've been told that he will be meeting with them. That he will reach out to them and their families. That he is going to speak to this matter.

It certainly is something that we as a church have to continue to deal with. It's not being dealt with as well in other places in the world as it is here in the United States right now. I think for the most part, the bishops of the United States, with some exceptions, of course, have got our act together in all of these matters. But I know there are those who disagree, but I really think that we're making every effort, at least from everyone that I know, we're making every effort to make sure that these things do not happen again.

AMANPOUR: Do you think the bishops will actually lobby or how will this be resolved, the idea that the statute of limitations on complaints and allegations runs out? And there are many victims who say, well, we need, we need to be able to have a much longer time to be able to bring these charges?

COYNE: You know, part of -- part of this issue is I'm a bishop. I also have responsibility for the care of my priests, too. And I don't take sides. I'm with the laity, I'm with the priests, but the priests are also saying where's the justice for us? You know. The statute of limitations are put in for the purposes of justice. You know, that after time, people's memories aren't quite as clear. You can't get the proper witnesses. Sometimes you can't quite get through the maze of history, the mist of history.

And so there is a reason why, in terms of jurisprudence, we have a statute of limitations. So when you begin to kind of set it aside for only this kind of crime or only this group of people, is that really fair? And priests -- aren't priests allowed and others who are charged in these things in terms of ecclesial crimes, aren't they allowed to a certain somewhat of justice?

That's the one hand. But on the other hand as a bishop, I want to reach out to the victims as well and be fair to them and to recognize the kind of justice that may be coming -- that may necessary for them. So it's a hard balancing act for any of us.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: I don't know whether any of you came across, but there was a rather, you know, quite a shocking report in "Global Post" about how some of the priests against whom these allegations were made have simply been plucked from their parish in the United States and put in parishes in Latin America and elsewhere.

COYNE: That did happen. I don't know if it's happening now. You know, I do know of cases that I've been a part of where we've had international priests that have had allegations made against them. Most of the point it's been allegations involving inappropriate behavior with adults. And we've made every effort to make sure that it's handled here in the United States, that they're not broomed out and turned back to their country.

It's very important that people be able to return -- receive the justice that's due or the punishment that's due for any crimes that are committed in this country. So -- yes, those things did happen in the past. But I don't -- honestly, I don't see them happening here in the United States, no.

COOPER: I just want to tell our viewers, this is a shot by the colonnades, by the Rose Garden. We're going to see there's a reception happening right now inside. We're going to see Pope Francis and President Obama coming through as they go toward the West Wing.

We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we're going to talk about some of the controversy about some of the guests who were here at the South Lawn of the White House. We're going to be speaking to at least one of them coming up. But I want to get the bishop's thoughts and Delia Gallagher's thoughts on that controversy.

[10:10:05] The White House came under some criticism for really a handful of people that they had invited among the 11,000 or so -- up to 15,000 who were actually at the South Lawn today.

We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, CATHOLIC CHURCH LEADER: From an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country which was lastly built by such families.

(APPLAUSE)

I look forward to these days of encounter and dialogue in which I hope to listen to and share many of the hopes and dreams of the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:45] CUOMO: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage of this historic visit by Pope Francis to the White House. The speeches just ended, but all the speculation and the buzz just begins. On the left you're seeing the White House. On the right, that special door, that's where the president gets to work every day, the colonnade next to the Rose Garden. And that will be the point of entry for the big meeting, the private meeting between the Pope and the POTUS.

What will they speak about in their 45 minutes? Will it be different than what they said in public? There's an expectation of that. And we'll be bringing you every step of this journey. Literally as they walk into the meeting, we'll be there as we will be at all the key events.

Now, in assessing what today means, you're going to see it a lot of different ways based on who you are and what you wanted to hear. There is certainly controversy. There was before this even began. And one of the points of it was about who was invited to this among the some 15,000 people that the White House says was on this -- were on the South Lawn. There were a number of people that were seen as controversial, and one of them is standing next to me right now.

The Bishop Gene Robinson, the former Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire, now a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress.

Bishop, thank you for being with us this morning.

BISHOP GENE ROBINSON, EPISCOPAL DIOCESE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: I'm delighted to be here, Chris. CUOMO: You are controversial, sir. Do you feel that way and what do

you think it is about?

ROBINSON: I didn't feel very controversial standing in the middle of 15,000 people. Far, far away from the Pope. I was honored and humbled to be invited. To be here at the White House, to help welcome the Pope. But the controversy, I think, was a bit of a tempest in a teapot.

CUOMO: But let's tell them why, first of all. Because this thing, what's controversial? Is it the color of his shirt, this bishop? Is that you were the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church? There is reporting that the Vatican pushed back and said we're worried about some of these invitees, namely a gay bishop because it could be a photo-op. It could be used to push a policy agenda that does not reflect the Holy Father or the Vatican. Fair criticism and concern?

ROBINSON: Sure. And I would never have put the Pope in such a position. I never expected to meet the Pope. I never -- nothing like that was ever set up. So I'm left wondering who stirred this up, whether it was someone trying to be overly protective of the Pope or whether, in fact, there are, you know, some conservative Catholic groups that are really trying to undermine the wonderful ministry that he has shown us so far. And so I would never do anything to undermine that.

CUOMO: Was it --

ROBINSON: We disagree on that issue, of course. But that's OK. I can still pray for him. And I can still love him as the great leader he is.

CUOMO: Was it wrong for the White House to invite somebody that may test the position of the Vatican?

ROBINSON: I don't think so. This was America's welcome to the Pope. And as far as I can tell, this crowd represented America. And America is incredibly diverse. And so this crowd should have been diverse.

CUOMO: And you don't believe the pushback came from the Vatican even though it is quoted from a Vatican high source?

ROBINSON: You know, this Pope needs the least protection of any Pope that I've lived to see. He is strong. One gay bishop in the middle of a crowd of 15,000 people is not anything this Pope would be intimidated by.

CUOMO: Catholics of the catechism, the teaching on gay marriage, is that there is none. It is between a man and a woman. What Pope Francis has said that resonated was, one, he used the word gay, and you know, when there's been no steps, so small step matters. But he has never said in any way that he believes in gay marriage. He just said who am I to judge a person for being gay? Do you think we make too much of Pope Francis's progress, as some would see it?

ROBINSON: Well, I think it is progress and mostly it is a change in tone. What I hope is that over the course of his ministry, as he meets with gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgender people, as he's already begun to do, his own views about our families will change. I mean, he cares about families.

CUOMO: Well, he's doing -- that's the whole reason he's in America right now.

ROBINSON: Exactly.

CUOMO: Ostensibly, by the way. Ostensibly, the apparent reason is his council on the family and a festival they're having in Philadelphia. And when he defines it as marriage -- you know, marriage and families, he said it in his speech, that it's a key moment in our history of civilization, there is fair speculation that gay marriage has no place in that discussion for Pope Francis, and are you OK with that?

[10:20:10] ROBINSON: I understand that that's where he and the Roman Catholic Church is right now, although I must say --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: A majority of the church as well.

ROBINSON: A majority of lay Catholics favor gay marriage.

CUOMO: True.

ROBINSON: So there's a -- there's this disconnect between the hierarchical leadership and the people in the pews because they know us. They know our families. We are their sons and daughters. So this is not something out of the laity's realm of experience. It is out of the realm of the Pope's experience.

CUOMO: So in terms of what will resonate today, everybody will take something different from this. Certainly the Pope was more provocative today than I heard him be in Cuba except when he was talking to some of his own when he was with the Jesuits. He touched on a lot of topics. The big moment for the American media will be that he's known for quoting people, Jose Marte, Pope John Paul II, he quoted in his first mass.

Today Martin Luther King. The quote, "We have defaulted on a promissory note, and it is time to honor it." What did that mean to you?

ROBINSON: The thing I love the most about this Pope is that he mirrors Jesus' teaching that we must always reach out to the marginalized, the dispossessed and the ostracized from our society. It's who Jesus spent all of his time with. And we see this Pope spending a lot of time with those people who are on the margins. And to quote Martin Luther King Jr. is exactly right. Also, exactly right for this moment in American history where we're also dealing with racism. And so this is a very smart Pope.

CUOMO: English is not his first language. It was important for him to speak to the American public in English because emphasis matters. What words he chooses to emphasize matters and certainly transcends any linguistic issue that he has, any language issue that he has. And it did seem as though he was shaking the finger gently, you know, in his own beautiful way, but more here than he was doing at the Cuban regime.

Is that fair criticism or assessment of his speech?

ROBINSON: I think it's a fair assessment, but I wouldn't criticize it.

CUOMO: Why not? Why would he shake a finger more at America than Cuba which is an open dictatorship?

ROBINSON: Because I think he understands that Cuba's entry into the world community, again -- reentry into the world community, it's a very delicate situation. And he wanted to treat it delicately. There's no reason in the world to be delicate with America.

CUOMO: But it's just as delicate here. These families who are exiled, who are displaced, who lost everything from a regime that rejected Catholicism, that made it illegal, you know, that dissent away Christmas until in recent years when a Pope reinvigorated that part of it. Do you -- why do you justify that balance of scrutiny by the Holy Father?

ROBINSON: I think he's wanting to cajole Cuba back into the fold. And he wants to do that very carefully.

CUOMO: So they get the carrots.

ROBINSON: Fidel Castro --

CUOMO: The U.S. gets the stick?

ROBINSON: Well, yes, I mean, in one sense. I think we can take it, right? You know, we're -- as priests, as ordained people, we are called upon both to be pastors but also to be prophets, or the old saying goes, rather than -- you know, with some people, you comfort the afflicted, but the other side of that is afflicting the comfortable. And I think he was comforting the afflicted in Cuba, and he's afflicting the comfortable here in America.

CUOMO: Well said. Let's see how it plays here among all the various constituencies in this crucible of American Christianity.

Bishop, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.

ROBINSON: You're so welcome.

CUOMO: Appreciate it.

Christiane, as I give it back to you, it will be very interesting to see what plays and what does not with all the different people and audiences that were listening to Pope Francis today. COOPER: They certainly were. Let's talk about some of the guests who

were there. We are joined here, Christiane, and I, by Bishop Christopher Coyne, also Delia Gallagher, our Vatican correspondent. Was too much made of -- of alleged controversy by the Vatican over who was invited to the South Lawn?

COYNE: Well, as Bishop Robinson pointed out, I mean, there are a small number among the 15,000 people that are there. And he also --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Literally a handful or two.

COYNE: Right. And I -- he also said a point which I very much agree with, that the White House is America's residence. And the Pope is coming to the White House as a guest to encounter America in all its diversity, in all its complexity, in all of its issues. And he's going to encounter that not only in the White House, he's going to encounter that right in all of his churches. You know, it's who we are.

And to have these people there, yes, maybe there were some political points being made, but at the end of the day, that's who we are as Americans. These are the issues that we deal with. And he's always been open to -- he appears to have been open since he became Pope to encountering transgender people, atheists, those people that -- who would have been outside of the Catholic Church or seen outside until recently.

COOPER: Although, Delia Gallagher, critics of the president have said, you know, if the king of Saudi Arabia came, do they invite critics of the Saudi regime to -- you know, to a South Lawn ceremony?

[10:25:08] GALLAGHER: Well, I think, you know, the Vatican is sensitive to the fact that somebody might try to use the Pope. I mean, it just happened in Italy before this trip that a woman who wrote children's books about gender and so on sent them to the Vatican, sent them to the Pope, received a standard letter back and then said, oh, look, you know, the Pope likes my books. So there's that side of it. But on the other hand, let's say that, you know, it's beneath the Vatican to try and censor a guest list.

I mean, as the bishop said, they're quite aware that Pope Francis wants to meet anybody and everybody, and I don't think they'd want to make too much of a stink about a guest list at the White House, although anybody can say, you know, it just takes one Vatican official to say, well, gee, I don't really like A, B and C, and that becomes a story.

AMANPOUR: So let's go, though, to the part we're all watching.

COOPER: And there we see --

AMANPOUR: They're coming through. It's time to go. Yes.

COOPER: Pope Francis and President Obama walking to the colonnade by the Rose Garden. They're going to be heading to the West Wing to the Oval Office where they'll meet privately.

AMANPOUR: And they apparently he has no aid for translators, so they're going to be talking -- do they talk more deliberately about some of these issues that really just the surface was scratched during the welcoming speeches, and how far do they go into some of these issues? The president, I don't believe, is going to Congress tomorrow. I think the vice president is. Perhaps we should bring in John King to talk about --

COOPER: Yes. John King, you've seen a lot of these walks to the colonnades.

KING: Where they're coming out of is the residence part of the White House, and they're walking down the colonnade to the president's left. So you're right, if you're watching television, it's the Rose Garden where we see the president quite frequently doing press conferences or doing other events.

Again, you're on the south side of the White House, the Mall side, not the Pennsylvania Avenue side. As they walk down the colonnade here to the president, to the -- excuse me, to the Holy Father's right at the moment is the White House briefing room just behind that wall is where the press secretary briefs reporters. Then they'll make a left when they get to the end. And it's a few short steps into the Oval Office.

The president is looking directly now, the Holy Father looking directly now at a door into the West Wing. This is the working part of the White House where the president's staff is. The president's office, of course, the Oval Office, the vice president has an office steps from that. The chief of staff. And we don't need to get into this at the moment, but when you come into an administration, that's part of the big fight, who gets the prime real estate in the White House.

But by winning the election, the president gets the most prime real estate of all. It is quite spectacular to be inside the Oval Office. And this is the Holy Father's first visit to the United States. It is, of course, also his first walk down this sacred place.

AMANPOUR: To the background music of the camera shot as in the motor drive --

KING: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I mean, it is absolutely deafening. That sound. There's definitely no way we can overhear or eavesdrop what they may or may not be saying together there.

COOPER: Bishop, I mean, how substantive is a meeting like this? I mean, we're told it may go on for as long as 45 minutes. Cameras are not going to be present during this. Probably some still cameras are. But what sort of things really would be discussed?

COYNE: Well, if you're going to speculate, wouldn't you think it would be something to do with Cuba? I mean, that the -- the Holy See has been so -- the Vatican state has been so instrumental in kind of bringing the mediation of together of the country of Cuba and the country of the United States. And that as this has been on the table now for the past couple of weeks and that the U.S. is progressing in that way, I think it will be more how can we help, how can we keep this moving forward. That would be where I would think. I mean, you can actually get down to the brass tacks.

AMANPOUR: And interestingly on that, and again we can discuss the politics of it, but at the United Nations in the next several weeks, not at the big general assembly, there's now some reporting that suggests that the United States may not veto the traditional annual sort of condemnation of the embargo.

COOPER: We also just want to point out, if you're watching at home, wherever you may be watching, in short order after this private meeting, the Pope will be getting to the so-called Popemobile. This is the first time we'll see that here in the United States for this Pope. You see some of the thousands, probably tens of thousands of people, who have gathered out on the streets to greet this Pope. They have been coming -- some have slept out on the streets.

It's a relatively short route that you see there. The parade route for the Pope to make. He's going to be heading to St. Matthew's for midday prayers and meeting remarks to U.S. bishops. But there are a lot of very enthusiastic people waiting to see this Pope.

We're also joined by John Allen, CNN senior Vatican analyst, who is standing by also with CNN's Jim Sciutto.

John, I'm just curious, I mean, you've followed this Pope now for quite some time. What did you make of his remarks today?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, Anderson, you know, I found myself thinking, if you take the totality of what Francis had to say this morning, how unusual it is for any public figure to come to the White House and deliver that entire message. I mean, we can imagine lots of public figures who would come here and talk about the importance of defending marriage and the importance of religious liberty. And one can imagine others who would come here and talk about immigration and climate change.

But the idea of one figure who would deliver all of those messages together is quite striking. And quite frankly, I think it's a reminder that this Pope, in particular, and really Catholic social teaching in general just utterly defies the conventional left/right divisions of American politics.