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The People's Pope. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired September 23, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:29:49] JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: I mean, we can imagine lots of public figures who would come here and talk about the importance of defending marriage and the importance of religious liberty. And one can imagine others who would come here and talk about immigration and climate change.

But the idea of one figure who would deliver all of those messages together is quite striking. And quite frankly, I think it's a reminder that this Pope, in particular, and really Catholic social teaching, in general, just utterly defies the conventional left/right divisions of American politics.

And it will be very interesting to track, you know, how political figures in this country and activist groups and so on try to process everything the Pope said because that doesn't quite neatly serve anyone's agenda as we've organized our political life.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And John, just yesterday, I mean you were on the flight with the Pope from Cuba to the United States. You travel with him frequently. He talked about that label of being called a leftist by some.

ALLEN: Yes. I mean he was asked a question in particular about that "Newsweek" cover that says is the Pope still Catholic? And he jokingly said, look, if you need me to, I'll recite the Creed which is the prayer that Catholics say at mass stating their beliefs. And then he went on to say, look, I know in some quarters people think -- and he used the phrase "I'm a little bit leftist".

He said that if people think that it's been a mistake in interpretation, a mistake in explanation because I'm not trying to peddle an ideological line. What I am trying to do is give voice to the social teaching of the Catholic Church.

And he actually got a little feisty about it -- Anderson. At one point he sort of defied reporters on the plane. He said if any of you can give me an example of a time that I have said something that is not part of the social doctrine of the church, please let me know, which was followed by a kind of deafening silence.

I think, you know, one of the things he's trying to do on this trip is to make the point that he's not a one-man band. And he's not on a personal crusade. He is trying to act as a champion and an advocate for the corporate social teaching of the Catholic Church.

And again, I say, that's a pretty countercultural message in America because it blends elements that play strongly to the right and other elements that play strongly to the left.

COOPER: I mean that's what's so interesting, though, about this pope. And some have written that he's sort of trying to find a third way which is not in any way changing Catholic teaching or changing doctrine, but emphasizing the role of mercy, emphasizing the desire, Delia Gallagher of this pope to have the church meeting people where they're at.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, first of all, it's significant that a pope even has to defend the fact that he's Catholic. I mean that tells you already where, you know, some people in America think his message has gone. And the fact that he does feel, you know, that it has been misinterpreted and that he needs to reiterate what he's suggesting is actually part of the teaching is significant.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But he's obviously -- and everybody carries their own baggage -- I mean he's very aware that he comes from Latin America, that people in the United States, particularly conservatives, look at the theologian, you know, the liberation theologists of the past. I mean some people have suggested, you know, he's a Marxist reluctantly coming to the scenes of capitalism.

GALLAGHER: Yes, what happens is that at some stage it becomes -- you know, what is the doctrine anymore, you know? Does that matter? If the approach is very open, then the question for the conservatives is, you know, well, then the doctrine -- what is it going to matter, you know?

BISHOP CHRISTOPHER COYNE, BISHOP OF BURLINGTON, VERMONT: I mean this man has been a pastor, archbishop of Buenos Aires for years. He's been a pastor. He's been out in the barrios. He's been out in the ghetto. He's been someone who always has that pastor's heart. He not -- he doesn't start with the dogma and the doctrine and work down. He starts with what the situation and the reality in front of him and then applies dogma and doctrine.

Sometimes it's a little bit difficult to interpret as the Pope, as the head of the Catholic Church, but that's who he is.

AMANPOUR: And isn't it really honestly just extraordinary that most of this sort of fear, if there is fear amongst some quarters of the Catholic Church or Americans, in general, that he is being a pastor? And we haven't actually seen that from many popes, many of his predecessors. They were much more into the pomp and circumstance. They would have been in their limousines and their motorcades. They wouldn't have been paying their own bills at the guest house. They wouldn't have been in a little --

COOPER: I believe it was six months -- after six months of being pope, he talked to the Curia, he talked to people within the Vatican about careerism. He talked about -- I mean he was very critical of sort of the -- some of the bureaucracy and a lot of the inner workings of the Vatican that he hoped to change. GALLAGHER: And actually, a lot of workers at the Vatican were

sort of hurt by that. There were people that thought, well, we don't really deserve that. We've been working really hard, and we're good people.

AMANPOUR: What about it, Bishop?

COYNE: It's also personalities, too. Pope Benedict is a wonderful bishop and he's a wonderful pastor. It's just his personality is very different than this pope. Pope Francis is a man of images. He's a man of the grand gesture. He's a man of making sure that when we talk about the poor, he's out there actually inviting poor men to his birthday dinner or making sure that we have showers at the Vatican or going to an island where refugees are just struggling to find --

[10:35:05] AMANPOUR: But his first ever trip -- but even on the issue of homosexuality, let's face it, Pope Benedict talked about an intrinsic mental disorder when it came to homosexuals. This pope says "Who am I to judge"? There are huge differences. This pope is a pastor.

COOPER: But I'm sure the doctrine -- they're exactly --

GALLAGHER: But it's a difference in approach, exactly. Well, welcome. Who am I to judge? But actually you're the Pope of a church which does judge.

AMANPOUR: But even that is up for potential discussion in this synod. We've been discussing -- well, we don't know.

COYNE: Just a clarification, too. It's not the phrase it's a mental disorder, it's a disorder. And the problem is it's a theological term. It refers to theological disorder of nature or whatever. I mean I know I'm splitting hairs but because the word "disorder" tends to go to that idea of mental disorder. And it's a different thing. I wish we didn't use that word. I wish we had a different word.

AMANPOUR: So what is it? Is it an intrinsic physical disorder?

COYNE: It's an orientation --

GALLAGHER: The orientation is disordered. The homosexual orientation, so it's not the person, but it is the act and the orientation -- if I understand correctly, Bishop.

COYNE: Yes, it is. The problem is the word "disorder" is interpreted in terms of mental faculties.

AMANPOUR: Well, disorder is a term that is out there to be interpreted as it sounds -- a disorder.

COYNE: Yes, I know. I know.

AMANPOUR: I mean let's not parse it. GALLAGHER: That's the language so is that going to change? I

mean that's what I think a lot of people are asking.

COOPER: And some of the language he used early on, talking about again the Curia, the bureaucracy of the Vatican, he talked about self- referential tendency toward theological narcissism, mythology of power, careerism. I mean those are pretty tough words to hear from the Pope six months in, as you said, Delia, to people who have been working in the Vatican.

GALLAGHER: Yes. And like I said, some of them did take a little bit of umbrage although, you know, on the whole, of course, they welcome that message. But it's hard. He's their boss.

AMANPOUR: But it's more than umbrage. Cardinal Raymond Berg (ph), the American cardinal basically said that, you know, a lot of people in the Vatican are expressing concerns to him about this pope. There is a strong sense that the church is like a ship without a rudder. Now, for that, he got demoted for that and other thoughts. But there is a lot of pushback amongst the conservatives, and hopefully we'll get a comment in a bit.

COOPER: Let's go back to Jim Sciutto who's also with John Allen. John, I mean again, you covered a lot of popes. In terms of what is happening within the Vatican itself, within the Curia, has there been a lot of change?

ALLEN: Well, Anderson, sure, there's been change. I mean look, the Pope sets a tone. And if there's one thing people that work in the Vatican are very good at, it's figuring out what the new boss wants.

The place has in some ways become much more relaxed, much more informal. They've also gotten what Francis's priorities are. They've engaged, for example, the current refugee crisis, the largest refugee crisis in Europe since the Second World War with full force because they know what's what Francis wants.

On this point about blowback, can I just be clear? I covered John Paul II and Benedict XVI. There was enormous internal resistance to those two popes as well. It came from somewhat different quarters than the resistance Francis is getting, but I don't think the overall level of resistance is any greater.

Resistance to popes goes all the way back to St. Peter. And I don't see any particular evidence that Francis is being hobbled by it.

COOPER: Jim Sciutto, I'm told we're about to get images of the meeting between President Obama and the Pope in the Oval Office. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you heard this morning. I mean it was an extraordinary event to see a welcome of this size at this level for the Pope, again, the first time he's been to the United States.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. This is a Pope who knows the power of his voice. And though he's an adept politician, he's very careful with his words. With each of those issues he touched on today, talking about being the son of immigrants -- gets right to the immigrant issue, very much in the election campaign here; on religious poverty very much in the election campaign; on poverty certainly on climate change. He knows the power of his voice, and that's important.

But one more point I would make, Anderson, is we're 15 minutes behind schedule. The reason is he met with supporters outside the residence.

COOPER: And Jim they're --

SCIUTTO: That's the type of pope that he is.

COOPER: Jim, just moments ago, this is the meeting. Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the most important issue you will discuss?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was just commenting that I noticed all of you are much better behaved than usual.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your sense about the migrants?

OBAMA: Thank you -- everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

COOPER: -- much better behaved when the Pope is there. Jim Sciutto, would you agree with that?

SCIUTTO: No question, absolutely. He knows -- he called him the Holy Father, right, so he knows the power of his voice.

The point I was going to make before, Anderson, was this. We're 15 minutes behind schedule. I'm certainly not scolding the Pope on that.

[10:39:58] That's because when the Pope left the Vatican residence this morning, he stopped to meet and shake hands and take selfies with supporters outside.

He had luminaries waiting for him here, the leaders of the free world. He kept them waiting because his style, his emphasis, his priority, is to meet with real people and connect with them. And I think we're going to see a lot more of that as he does the parade route here and later in the day and throughout his trip in New York and Philadelphia.

COOPER: That will be really fascinating. Again, this parade is something that many in Washington have been anticipating, have been lining up now for hours, even overnight to try to get a prime spot along the parade route.

The Pope is going to be in the Pope mobile. The big question not only for those who want to meet the Pope, see the Pope, also for security, is he going to stop the Pope Mobile, get out and actually try to mix with the crowd?

That's something that New York authorities are preparing for as well when the Pope comes to New York later tomorrow. There is a lot more ahead this morning not only after the parade. He's going to be heading to St. Matthew's. He's going to be meeting with bishops. We're going to be bringing you that as well as a mass, celebrating mass at the Catholic University.

I was there last night. There was a lot of excitement on the campus -- a lot of students there. In fact, it's the largest basilica in the United States, but it is not even big enough for all the people who want to try to get there. So they're actually going to have the mass outside the basilica.

We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:46:26] COOPER: And welcome back to our continuing coverage of Pope Francis's visit; his first day -- full day here in Washington, D.C. You can see the crowds lining up there, waiting to get their first glimpse of Pope Francis in the Pope Mobile as he leaves the White House in which we anticipate happening in just several minutes.

I'm joined with my colleague, Christiane Amanpour here for continuing coverage of this very exciting morning here, history being made. The first time this pope has visited the United States. He's 78 years old. It's an extraordinary visit for him, for President Obama, for all those who are welcoming him here this morning.

Let's go down to our Carol Costello who's along the parade route. Carol -- people have been gathering for very, very long now, haven't they?

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, you're not kidding. Some people got here at 10:00 last night. And I'm sorry you just missed it, Anderson, but people were doing the wave. They're keeping themselves occupied.

One of the most beautiful things about this crowd I must say is no one is talking about politics. No one is talking about church doctrine. Everybody's just talking about love.

You know, there's a jumbotron set up over here on the grounds of the Washington Monument so people could hear the Pope's remarks when he spoke from the south lawn of the White House. When he talked about being a child of immigrants and he talked about America being the land of immigrants, a huge crowd went out because I want my photographer, Jay, to pan around because you can see this crowd consists of all different nationalities.

In just one little corner, I found people from Vietnam, from China, from Nicaragua, from Guatemala -- all across the world. This is America. This is the great melting pot. And when they heard the Pope say that, and speak of his love for immigrants, it meant a lot to them.

They don't really care about other things so much like when the Pope talked about climate change. There was a little cheer that went up. All they want to think about right now is this could be our transformational figure. They're looking for someone that gives them hope. And they believe that Pope Francis is the person that might be able to do that -- Anderson.

COOPER: Do you have any sense of size of crowds out there?

COSTELLO: Oh, my gosh. Well, you're looking right down Constitution Avenue. And the Pope Mobile will travel down Constitution Avenue. And then it will turn right here at 15th. And so people are lined all the way down 15th as well.

And I would say, with each line of people, it's probably about 20 deep. There has to be tens of thousands of people. You see all of the police officers lining the route, too, right, and the barriers keeping the crowd from the roads. So everybody's hoping, of course, that the Pope gets out of his Pope Mobile, but they will not be able to run up to the Pope like they were in other countries because obviously police want to keep them away.

And they certainly will by those line of police officers that you see. There's also a lot of National Guard milling about. And lots and lots of Secret Service people, although they've kind of blended in with the crowd right now and possibly for very good reason.

COOPER: Well, that's one of the things I've been talking to a lot of NYPD officers about their security preparations, Carol. And it's one of the things they are training for is the idea that this is a pope who wants to be accessible, who wants to get out and touch and talk with people. And they have to be ready for that.

So it's not just the officers you see lining the route, the uniformed officers, it's also plainclothes officers milling in with the crowd, trying to kind of get a sense of the crowd, look out for anybody who may seem out of place, anybody who may not be as excited as everybody else around them, anybody with a backpack.

[10:50:06] In New York, certainly, and I know Cathy Lanier, the chief of police here in Washington, D.C. I mean they have trained for any kind of potential and role-played out any kind of potential vulnerabilities for this pope.

AMANPOUR: Absolutely. And I'm just having this --

COSTELLO: Here where I am -- I'm sorry -- here where I am, I - just want to say security has been very tight. The Pope Mobile is supposed to come down Constitution Avenue in just about ten minutes. At 10:00, they cleared the street of all media and we're confined

to this media pen right now. Nobody is allowed in the street -- not civilians, not media, only police. And the streets are absolutely -- everybody passed through security. You weren't allowed to bring any of the Pope flags with the long poles on them. They confiscated those. You're only allowed to bring in those tiny little flags -- those Vatican flags that you see so many people waving.

You weren't allowed to bring in anything metal, weren't allowed to bring in backpacks. So the people camping overnight had only blankets with them, and that's about it.

AMANPOUR: Anderson, as we look at that and we keep thinking and hoping, I'm sure many people hope to see some kind of sort of crowding the Pope's car. They would love to be able to talk to him.

I'm having this flashback to the 80s when it was Mikhail Gorbachev here in Washington with President Reagan who stepped out of the bubble and started to shake people's hands. At that time it was revolutionary. He was the leader of the Soviet Union. The wall hadn't collapsed yet, I don't think. And at that time, remember -- well, Pope Francis's predecessor, Pope John Paul II, was the great anti-Communist pope.

So when we talk about popes and their effect, they really do have massive effect, some of them. Pope John Paul II was a huge motivator behind the fall of communism, the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the fall of Eastern Europe.

And this pope is, in his own way, a huge motivator in terms of social justice, climate justice, you know, people --

COOPER: He's also -- and we're here with Delia Gallagher, Vatican correspondent, and Bishop Christopher Coyne from the diocese of Vermont.

I mean from the beginning, this pope has really set a different tone just in terms of how he lives even where he lives in the Vatican itself.

GALLAGHER: Yes, I think that was one of the clues to people aside from the name choice of Francis that he really meant business when he talks about being a pope for the poor and that he wants a church for the poor.

COOPER: He doesn't live in kind of the beautiful residence that the prior pope lived in, in the Vatican.

GALLAGHER: Right, which by his own admission is not so beautiful, actually. He said it was just that it's very big and it's kind of a funnel to get into it. He said he wanted to be with people, and that's why he lives in the hotel.

AMANPOUR: And before we take a break, we want to go to Rosa Flores who is at Catholic University with all the preparations because that's where the Pope is going to give the big mass this afternoon -- Rosa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the conversation about immigration continues here at Catholic University. We heard what Carol was just mentioning some of those remarks by the Pope at the White House.

And just hear this -- the Pope saying that he is an immigrant because he is; his family moving from Italy all the way to Argentina. His grandmother who has a beautiful name, by the way, her name is Rosa, traveled there and established a new life. And his family lost everything during the Depression.

So when this pope speaks about immigration, the difficulties of the immigrants, he knows exactly what he's talking about. He's not reading about something. That is his life.

Now, as to what we're going to see happen here at the basilica, later today, there's going to be a canonization ceremony for Junipero Serra. Now, he's a very controversial figure. On one side, you know, he's revered because he is an 18th century Franciscan missionary who came to the United States to California and started evangelizing along the coast.

Now, where does the controversy come? Well, a lot of Native Americans and Latino groups have said that, you know, it's a bleeding wound that reminds them of a time when their culture, their language, was ripped from them. But the Catholic Church does defend this man. They're canonizing him. They're making him a saint.

So that's what we're going to see later today. You can see the preparations going on. A lot of empty seats right now, but they're not going to be empty for long -- Christiane and Anderson, because there are so many people waiting on the sidelines to fill these seats.

COOPER: Yes. I was at the campus last night, and there were, you know, hundreds of students out there. There's just incredible excitement, obviously, on that campus. Not everybody is going to be able to even get a seat to celebrate the mass with Pope Francis but even people just wanting to be there yesterday to kind of soak in the scene.

[10:55:00] And there you see the scene out on the streets as some of the tens of thousands of people Carol Costello talked about are eagerly awaiting their first glimpse of the Pope in the Pope Mobile. That we anticipate very shortly.

We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. What a morning it has been so far. It is just about 11:00 a.m. here in Washington, D.C. You see the scene there. Some tens of thousands of people, faithful, some merely just curious people, lining the streets waiting to get their first glimpse of Pope Francis --