Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Pope Francis concluded evening vespers from St. Patrick's cathedral in New York; Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 24, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: So he is trying to see as much of New York as possible. And here we're getting a glimpse of him as he begins to leave St. Patrick's cathedral. Big smile on his face and a lot of smiles for all those in attendance.
If you are just joining us, it is the top of the hour. Good evening from St. Patrick's cathedral where moments ago Pope Francis concluded evening vespers. It just continued to take a look at the sights and the sounds inside St. Patrick's with his glorious choir singing. Let's listen in.
(APPLAUSE)
COOPER: And as we await Pope Francis as he will be leaving, I can tell you, the doors to St. Patrick's are now open. His vehicle is waiting outside. Security is standing around. There is great expectation, many of the workers who helped rebuild, reconstruct this church, re-habit, if you will, they are waiting outside to the left of the entrance. There are another group, many, some school kids. Some of them have left. More adults now the to the right want to try to get yet another glimpse of Pope Francis as he emerges as we continue to look inside St. Patrick's.
I'm joined by CNN's Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher, Father Thomas Rosica of the Holy Sea, the Holy Sea press office and biblical scholar and CNN contributor Bruce Feiler.
Father Rosica, I mean, I wonder what you made of this celebration tonight, these vespers and the comments made by this Pope inside.
[20:05:17] FATHER THOMAS ROSICA, HOLY SEE PRESS OFFICE: Beautiful ceremony of vespers and special guest this evening besides the workers outside the cathedral and some of the lay people from the diocese are the religious priests and seminarians of the archdiocese of New York and the neighboring diocese. The beautiful celebration of vespers, this was not a mass. You see the Holy Father just coming out of the sacristy.
Very touching moment during the homily when he recognized the wonderful work of women religious in the United States several times. Spoke about their charitable work, their educational works and the cathedral burst into applause I think three different times. These were very important words to be spoken at this moment in history, especially the new and developing relationship of women religious after some years of great difficulty and perhaps misunderstanding. The other thing it was very touching, unscripted at the beginning of
the liturgy. I think I got all the words right when he recognized the terrible tragedy that happened this morning in Mecca, over 700 Muslims stampeded to death during a pilgrimage, during the Muslim pilgrimage.
COOPER: Yes. And we are going to be talking about that throughout the next two hours of the program. We will bring you the latest information about that tragedy that occurred.
Delia Gallagher, you've seen a lot of vespers. You've seen this Pope. You followed him closely now since he became Pope Francis. What did you make of what you heard tonight?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Anderson, I feel in terms of the atmosphere and watching the Pope that he is kind of, this is really settled into the trip here, you know. Maybe the first day and a half it was a little bit nervous, a little bit tired, but I feel like this has just been a great welcome here in New York and I'm not going to say the pinnacles because I think there is probably of pinnacles of the trip throughout this week and we still have Philadelphia to go. But certainly, what a celebration tonight in New York City.
COOPER: And Bruce Filler, certainly, to see this Pope visiting ground zero tomorrow, to see him visiting the site of World Trade Center, that is certainly going to be a very emotional moment, not only for the pontiff, but for many New Yorkers and many around the world.
BRUCE FEILER, RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR: I want to echo what Delia said, he seems to be picking up energy as the week goes along, to come to New York where the interfaith conversation is front and center and hear him make news in effect of Father Rosica by revoking the tragedy in Mecca today and to know that tomorrow he'll be speaking to the world at the U.N. and heading to ground zero. He turned from sort of the domestic political narrative to a global narrative and seems to be the stage he's trying to siege (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: Father Rosica, one of the think John Allen had said yesterday was that he sort of sees the emerging of the Pope Francis 2.0. And while there had been much talk about this Pope as an outsider when he became pontiff, he really seemed yesterday to talk about himself as part of continuing of those who came before him.
ROSICA: He's got a beautiful approach to this whole visit identifying himself as an immigrant, a son of immigrants, recognizing that those very immigrants, Italian immigrants came in and help to build this country and especially this particular city. By doing that, he is bounded himself in and even deeper way when he looked up this morning at Congress and it made the gesture to the many immigrants right here, all of those are not simply theater points or ways to gain fans.
This is who he is. He recognizes this humble origins. I think recognizing the humble origins of others and he is always asking people to be more -- to be member one of the things of tonight's service was gratitude, remembrance and gratitude. Without those two pillars of our society, we really can't go forward. He said those are hallmarks of any person with a religious vocation. There are a label location. Remember, be grateful.
GALLAGHER: You know, I noticed Father Rosica, that in the Pope's speeches this time, often when we hear papal speeches, they tend to place themselves heavily within the tradition of other Popes. As my vulnerable predecessor said and, you know, as this Pope said in this century and so on, but these speeches seem to be particularly devoid of that. And I wonder if you notice that and if you agree that maybe there was kind of concerted effort to make them very modern to the point without too much Vatican as we say.
ROSICA: He's been like this from the beginning. And remember at the opening talk of the Senate last year in October of 2014, he gave a brief instruction to the bishops in the Senate hall to all of us in the Senate hall by saying it's not necessary really to go back and remind me what I've said or what other popes, I know what I said. Let's get on with it.
And by doing that, he's not at all denigrating or denying what came before. He knows full well. But what he is saying I'm a pastor, I'm a shepherd walking in your midst. Let's do this together.
[20:10:25] COOPER: And let's watch him walk in the midst. So many kids reaching out to him. Let's just watch and listen.
(APPLAUSE)
COOPER: It's really been striking every time to see him, we saw him in St. Mathews cathedral in Washington and in St. Patrick's, the outpouring of excitement and affection of people in the church pews, there he is talking to Governor Andrew Cuomo who I believe was speaking to him in Italian when he first arrived outside of St. Patrick's. But to see - it is not just the outpouring of, you know, the fateful in the streets and those who want to get close to him, it's in the church pews, people who, members of the clergy, nuns, fryers reaching out to him wanting to make contact.
GALLAGHER: Well, if you consider, Anderson, that these are people who have devoted their lives to the priesthood or to the convent, to God in some way. And so for them to be able to meet their Pope must have an even added significance. And certainly, I mean, you know, he needs to be protected from the crowds even within the church because people do reach out and try to hold on to him, especially.
FEILER: Well, there was that electrifying, to me a highlight from the trip is after he speaks to Congress, of course, he goes to have lunch in the catholic charities organization. He plunges into the crowd. You've got homeless people, you've got criminals, you've got people sick and he seemed to literally right from within. And I have to say I was thinking as I watch that scene of the image in the center of the chapel of God creating Adam, the first room where he was elected Pope and Adam is lifeless because he's about to be touched by God and it was almost like he takes the holy spirit from these people this woman he's talking to now.
COOPER: Such a moment -- a woman who can't stand up to reach out to him. He stops for her and reaches down to her and bends down to her and talks to her, whispers to her.
GALLAGHER: Well, if you notice aside from the political issues that he's touched on, in quite a few speeches he has mentioned the elderly. Not only the young and giving opportunities for the young, but spending time with the elderly and taking care of the elderly in a society which takes care of its elderly is a just society.
ROSICA: Almost a given, whenever he gives a talk, he refers to young people and two lines later, the grandparents. This is the generational Pope. And his talks to grandparents have been so encouraging and his talks to young people saying go and visit your grandparents, be with your grandparents. That is a beautiful touch. This is the father and the grandfather all wrapped up in this person.
GALLAGHER: Of course, the whole theme of the trip is for the family, so that does make sense that he would try to emphasize that but does that even at the Vatican. It is very important to him the idea of the family.
ROSICA: Anderson, he's just a couple of feet behind us right now when he comes out the door.
COOPER: I know. Well, when he first came in, it was stunning to see him so close and Wolf Blitzer and I were on television and Wolf couldn't looked in the monitor. And I said Wolf, turn around, look, he's right there. It was an extraordinary moment. And it just one thing, I mean, you know, we were in St. Peters square when he came out on that balcony on that extraordinary night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who would forget that?
COOPER: But to see him so close, and I think that is the excitement for, not only for those the fateful, but even for New Yorkers who may not be catholic or maybe who once were catholic, there is something about this man I think that everybody can relate to in one way or another.
ROSICA: I had a very wonderful experience this morning at 5:00 in the morning and the Senate rotunda at the capital, the capital building, waiting for - I was working with the news networks. And many of the lay people, the lay workers, the camera operators, the people who are there as the car pulled up, he got out and gave a marvelous talk. Many of the women that there and the men were crying. And one of them came over to me and said hey, father, is this normal? Why do I feel like this? And I said it's absolutely normal. People with not much religion, people have been away and asked them, I said what about him that gets you? And he said it is the authenticity, it is the humanity and it is the smile. You know, when you stop and think what does it take to be a good pastor? Authenticity, humanity and a smile.
[20:10:38] COOPER: And just look at the peach reaching out, the nuns there in blue, so many people and now he's coming very close to the front doors here at St. Patrick's. I can tell you there are probably 100 or 200 people who have been screened and on either side of the door. It probably won't take him very long to drive up to the residence where he is staying tonight. It's probably 20 or 30 blocks or so from the location here where we are and obviously, there will be no traffic for the pontiff.
FEILER: And as he's about to get on to Fifth Avenue, it's worth noting that once to me one of the moments of the talk was when he was in the capital of efficiency and hard work, everybody in New York is a workaholic and took an entire paragraph to talk about the importance of rest. It is don't let efficiency and hard work and success and metrics in effect dominate us. Let's remember there are other metrics to life. Go off, take vacation, reconnect with your family and the world.
ROSICA: You put all of these things together, he's saying, he is giving us the profile or the job description of those of us in ministry, priests, deacons, bishops and lay people.
COOPER: And there he is walking down the steps now of St. Patrick's. The crowds are crying out to him.
ROSICA: Fifty feet away from us right now.
COOPER: Incredible.
ROSICA: Amazing.
COOPER: I notice you taking a picture with your camera, as well, father.
ROSICA: I never usually do this onset with you.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: But it is interesting is that just a position of people wanting to see him with their own eyes, but also wanting to capture the moment on a camera and it's sort of the interplay between the two.
FEILER: You were talking about universality, I spoke to a gentleman this morning in Washington who is from Sierra Leone raised Muslim, he is married to a Christian and he went through every single member of his family, this one is catholic, there is one Jehovah's witness, and they were all convening on Facebook to basically say thumbs up to this Pope around the world. So he's creating this virtual community and opening up the dialogue and people don't normally talk about these things.
ROSICA: What a day. What a day.
GALLAGHER: It looks like he hasn't been given much leeway to go over and greet people.
COOPER: I can tell you security is being very tight here even as before he was coming out, looking up at the windows, looking up at the surrounding buildings, there was a moment where there was a window open and security was telling somebody in the building to close the window. So they are being very concerned about this not just street level activity, but anything in the surrounding buildings because really, as you're driving down Fifth Avenue, you're in a canyon of concrete and glass buildings on either side. ROSICA: To get through security, you have to get here early
afternoon.
FEILER: One window doesn't close, his car window. He insists on having it open.
COOPER: And this area, of course, is a highly secure, anybody who is in the surrounding blocks around St. Patrick's today has gone through metal detectors. Several blocks from here as the crowds continue up Fifth Avenue. Those people have not necessarily gone through that level of security. Let's just listen.
(CHEERS)
COOPER: For everybody inside St. Patrick's cathedral, once in a lifetime opportunity to see their Pope in that extraordinary house of worship.
FEILER: I want to mention before we turn the page from St. Patrick's, this building was begin in the 1850s and the idea of the -- when it was open, this was an open field with 100,000 people at the dedication. It is the largest crowd ever gathered in New York. And they had intended to raise $1,000 from 100 people and that was going to construct it but ran out of money and had to go to the Irish catholic workers, OK. And this building was built on nickels and quarters and dimes raised over decades from the people who built this city. It is a testament to hard work. He talked art hard work and here we have workers in front that really does come full circle.
[20:20:24] COOPER: And a very strange sight to see traffic moving up Fifth Avenue. This is a one-way street heading south. They are now heading north up Fifth Avenue toward the residence where the Pope will sleep tonight.
ROSICA: What powers the Pope has, reversing directions.
COOPER: We're about to see the fiat there, the Pope waving to crowds, many just looks as busy as it was when he first came down several hours ago. Looks like people have not wanted to leave their spot, especially those who waited many hours to get that prime spot.
GALLAGHER: They were probably waiting for the Pope mobile to come back and got a little bit confused because it's now the fiat.
FEILER: What is so great about this, Anderson, and all of us who spend time here, is he's taking this jaded city and he is un-jading it. I don't know if that's a word, but that's really what is happening in the sort of the glee of people gathering along the way just to glimpse this moment is fantastic.
COOPER: In terms of tomorrow, let's just run through a little bit as he continues up to the residence and we'll try to show you where he ends up tonight, but in terms of what happens tomorrow, can you kind of layout the day as you know it?
ROSICA: Certainly the big moments tomorrow would be the visit to ground zero which many people are interested in from the religious aspect and United Nations address tomorrow morning. But it is not just an address what we know to the ambassadors to the United Nations, this is taking place in a special session where all of the ambassadors and how many nations are represented? We have the number and it's over 100 I believe. Hundred world leaders are here. Talk about a world platform for the Holy Father to address that and certainly there will be very important top picks that will be addressed.
Delia, about the visit to the United Nations, you've covered previous nations, too.
GALLAGHER: Yes, absolutely. We have - you want to take a look at that.
COOPER: This is, by the way, outside the papal observer's residence where you can see, I don't think the fiat has arrived yet but this is the early part of the motorcade. So you got a sense of just how extensive the security operations and the escort vehicles. This is quite a long motorcade. You rarely see this kind of thing in New York City, the number of motorcycle, NYPD motorcycle officers, probably a dozen or two dozen leading the way, multiple vehicles, multiple layers of security.
ROSICA: We have people asked this morning why he wasn't staying at Cardinal Dolin's residence right behind the cathedral. The residents he is staying at is the residence of the papal ambassador to the United Nations. The papal ambassador to the United States is in Washington where the Pope stayed. But because the U.N. has a special ambassador from the Vatican, you have (INAUDIBLE). I think is up on 72nd street. And for that reason, the Pope usually stays at somebody from the Vatican and in this case, New York City has the papal ambassador. You have to (INAUDIBLE), permanent observer to the United Nations. So for that reason he's not staying here at the cathedral.
COOPER: And then he is going to go down to Philadelphia. He'll be there Saturday. He will be there Sunday, as well, which was initially kind of the reason for him coming to the United States. This is sort of, there's a very important meeting in October. If you can explain what is happening in October and what this meeting over the weekend has to do with that.
GALLAGHER: Well, we haven't highlighted it yet because it hasn't happened, but it is the reason he has come, which is this meeting, world meeting of families in Philadelphia. This is a tradition started by John Paul II. And this was the reason that the Pope wanted to come. Then he added Cuba and he explained earlier that he had originally thought maybe he could go to Mexico and come to the United States through Mexico, but he wasn't able to arrange that. And so, when the Cuba deal happened with the U.S. and Cuba, he said, well, I'll add Cuba. And it ties in because he says he's going to Philadelphia for the family. And then he goes right back to the Vatican the following week and he starts the Senate, the international meeting of bishops and cardinals to discuss issues, challenges facing the modern family which they began last year and will remember that there was heated debate and public debate about several issues such as giving communion to divorced and remarried people and so on. And so --
COOPER: All which under the rubric year of mercy which is what this coming year --.
GALLAGHER: Well, now he's brought in the year of mercy. So it is interesting if we want to look at the whole perspective. That first he said I want to do a Senate on the family suggested by his brother bishop. So he said, OK, let's do that. And then on the heels of this Senate which is coming up, he is going to say now, I'm going to do the Senate and then we are going to introduce the year of mercy.
So he is trying to bring all of those themes together and say as he has said even here in the United States that, you know, we need to keep in mind the overarching idea of forgiveness and mercy towards one another and God's mercy towards us.
[20:25:29] COOPER: And just in terms of much has been made that in terms of doctrine, the really have been no changes, there has no difference between this Pope and Pope Benedict and his predecessor in terms of the core believes of the Catholic Church, perhaps on emphasis, greater emphasis on mercy, on flexibility, a different message he has given to bishops and pastors. But there are some considerations for this next year making annulments, somewhat easier, that the process in the past for annulments has for some people been costly, it has taken an awful lot of time. He's hoping to kind of stream line, the right word for that?
GALLAGHER: Yes.
ROSICA: Yes, stream line and also offer it as a possibility and experience of mercy and you can start over. Something is broken, love is failed, your life is not condemned, your life is not finished. Let's get on with this. Let's correct the situation so that people have another chance. All of it has to be understood. He's got this theme of mercy in him. It's his DNA, his model.
(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE). The lord looked upon Matthew, the tax collector and had mercy and said, OK, start over. And so, this continues with Francis. And he's very concerned with the brokenness, with the sadness, with the suffering of people. But he also wants people to know that it's not over for you. You could start over.
In the context, I've been at the previous Senate in 2014 and this next one, it's an opportunity to deal with real issues, not to overthrow doctrine by any means, but to say let's look at the challenge. Let's ask why people are not getting married. How can we help people who are suffering? How can we help people who cannot afford to be married?
This morning, talking to the homeless people, many people can't afford homes. This is not a good thing in this country. How can we deal with that? So all of it is common sense, past for wisdom, and this desire for God's mercy to be experienced.
COOPER: And just if you are just joining us, the scene we're looking at is outside the diplomatic residence of the Vatican observer at the United Nations where the Pope is spending tonight. And that is the scene, obviously, the entire area is now cordoned off. So, it is a very set scene. They have blocked off the street on both sides, obviously, of the street. That's about as close as anybody can possibly get.
We have not actually seen him enter the residence yet. I should point that out. But that is where he's going to be staying, which is not too far from here and he has been going up there, as you seen in that fiat, the vehicle he drove into the city sometime earlier.
I want to welcome our guest, Senator Charles Schumer who is joining us. He just come out of St. Patrick's. How was it inside?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Incredible. I saw the Holy Father in Washington and now here in New York. What an amazing night. His soft voice and his powerful presence and thinking. Just knocked both in Washington and New York. It was one of the most astounding, amazing, wonderful events I attended and I think the people here at St. Patrick's and all the people in Congress would agree.
COOPER: You were waiting for him outside with Governor Cuomo, with Mayor Bill De Blasio. What do you say when he comes up? I mean, it is one thing to see him from far, I mean, we got excited just seeing him this close, to somebody see him walking towards you.
SCHUMER: Yes. And I saw him in Washington. And as I was waiting, you know, there is a little receiving line, my hair was standing on the end. And I'm not Catholic. And then what I said in here, is I said first all of New York loves you Catholic and non-Catholic alike. And then I said and Congress was just inspired by your speech. I said just about everybody would agree it was one of the best, if not the best speech we have heard. And Cardinal Dolin said what a compliment and he said yes, thank you very, very much. He is a humble modest man but he is amazing. He is amazing.
COOPER: There is, I mean, this are people you meet in your life who have an aura about them, you know. I think being in a room with Nelson Mandela, he had an aura about him. There are people -- this man clearly has.
SCHUMER: You can tell he's a special person in his mind, his heart and his soul, you know. And in each part, he's brilliant. I thought his speech today in Washington was just done perfectly so brilliant. He obviously has a big heart and he is a person of faith and he exudes it. So I thought his speech today, it appealed to our better nature, but it wasn't political. It was an amazing combination, you know, to exhort us, but no one could say it is politically no show.
And you know Sean by, you know, as you know, Anderson, father, when there is the State of the Union, one side gets up and the other sits on in, here all the standing ovations everyone got up together. That says something, doesn't it?
COOPER: Do you think it will actually change anything?
SCHUMER: I hope so. You know, he is such a powerful influence that people go to sleep tonight and say maybe, you know, he said and when he particularly spoke of both Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Martin of bringing us together and people overcoming their differences and listening to one another, I think people took that to heart. I do. You know, we need a little push, but we're beginning to move a little bit together, you know, and maybe this was just the kind of inspiration we need. Let's hope. Let's pray.
COOPER: Will he be going down to ground zero tomorrow?
SCHUMER: Yes, they'll be going down to ground zero, and then I worked very closely with Cardinal Dolan and the bishops on immigration, so I'm really excited he invited me up to east Harlem to meet with some of the immigrants to the school. One really looking forward to that.
COOPER: It's obviously a critical time. He just by chance he's coming at a time when obviously we are entering an election season where it's probably perhaps even bigger than anybody had anticipated it being at this time in the primary season. Do you think this is going to have any kind of impact?
SCHUMER: I can't tell. You know, the way this Holy Father moves people is through their hearts and through their thinking. So, it's not. It will influence people in ways that will never be able to sort of measure bit by bit, but it will happen. Hopefully. Hopefully. It was a powerful, powerful message and his soft voice, but his strength -- is an amazing combination. That's captivating. It almost has you just totally hypnotically - you can't - you can't ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just makes this a gentleness, and everybody sat on the edge of their seat together.
SCHUMER: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything was understandable, too.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: And strength at the same time, it's an amazing combination with a load of - I mean you could see he thought through that speech really thoroughly, both in the broader concept and even in the sentences, which were designed to inspire us, but not really be political, I thought that was great.
COOPER: Were you taking notes?
SCHUMER: I got them all up here, yeah ...
(LAUGHTER)
SCHUMER: It would have been impolite to be writing while he was speaking.
COOPER: Well, Senator Schumer, thank you so much.
SCHUMER: Thank you. Thank you. It was - it's one of the most - I've been in politics for 41 years, one of the most amazing days I've ever had.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.
COOPER: We're going to take a short break, our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:36:35]
COOPER: Welcome back. We are outside St. Patrick's Cathedral where Pope Francis electrified the faithful tens of thousands of people who line the streets on one side of your screen. His departure is due shortly at the location. On the other side, the papal (INAUDIBLE) residence. Father Thomas Rosica of the Holy Press office is with me. CNN's senior Vatican analyst John Allen as well, and Father James Martin. Father Martin, you were inside. You are glowing. How was it?
FATHER JAMES MARTIN: It was beautiful. I got fairly close to the pope, which was exciting, but what I was most excited about was in Spanish, for people who understood it, he said the Catholic sisters in the United States, what would the church be without you? I love you. And he got a huge round of applause, and Catholic sisters have felt - then hear the pope at a mass for clergy and religious women and men say that with just a great relief for so many people.
COOPER: He's been trying to without changing doctrine in any way, but trying to emphasize the role of women and elevate the role of women in the church.
MARTIN: He has. One of the things he wants is more women leaders and I think he's struggling with how to do that exactly in the Vatican, but he has said that multiple times, and after the investigation of the women's religious orders, he specifically met with four of the women and how the picture kind of promulgated to say I love sisters. And this is yet, another ringing declaration of his love for and his appreciation for the great work that catholic sisters do in the United States.
COOPER: John Allen, how do you think the visit is going?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I mean I've covered papal trips now for 20 years. And in general I would say, there is immediate dynamic that in advance we predict disaster and when disaster doesn't happen, we declare the trip a triumph. But even measured against that standard. You know, I would say this trip is going extremely well. You know in the abstract, one might think the United States is somewhat tough room for this pope, right? I mean, you know, given his rhetoric on capitalism, given his obvious issue for militarism, given his obvious preference for the peripheries of the world rather than it's - you know, it's perceived centers. And given the fact that some of the most significant blow back this pope has faced has come from the United States, both inside and outside the church. You know, you might have thought that this would be a place where maybe the Francis legend wouldn't hold and yet, I think the truth of it is, you know, that the reception he's gotten at every stop along the way has been not only enthusiastic, I would call it almost rapturous. And ...
COOPER: And not just necessarily from those of the Catholic faith.
ALLEN: Well, know, that's exactly the point. I mean if you watched the streets in D.C. the other day when the papal, you know, when he was going through with the popemobile, you know, I was on along the route with some of that crowd and some of them are Catholics for whom this was a spiritual experience, but many of them were not. I mean these were other Christians, followers of other religions, people of no religion at all, who were just thrilled to see this man.
You know, Anderson, I've told you before, but I think this trip really cements it. I think Pope Francis is the new Nelson Mandela. That he's the new sort of voice of moral conscience on the global stage that people recognize as sort of being able to indicate where the side of the angle stands, you know, and in a way, almost a part from the office that he holds, I mean, sure, he's the pope and so that carries a certain kind of authority.
[20:40:00]
ALLEN: But I think the thing about this man is, he walks his talk and you know, when he talks about simplicity and humility and the importance of the peripheries and the importance of ordinary people, he demonstrates that in his conduct. I mean today, for example, I think it was abundantly obvious if you watch the way this pope comported himself, while that speech to Congress, you know, all of us in the media focused on as the key point because there was a lot of political fact to chew on, if you watch this pope, it was clear that to him the most important appointment of this day was not in the hall of Congress.
COOPER: It was right afterwards
ALLEN: It was with the homeless people that he went to meet at St. Patrick's, right? And people can see that about this man and they respond to it.
COOPER: I want to remind our viewers what we are seeing obviously, there, on the large part of your screen, that's was the pope entering on Capitol Hill before his speech. This now full screen is the image outside the diplomatic residence in New York. I assume, I can't say for sure whether the pope has actually entered the diplomatic residence, but given the length of time, I can only assume that we're told he has not, so I'm not exactly sure where he is at this point. But that is the location where he is going to be spending the night before a very busy day, John Allen, tomorrow.
ALLEN: And it's worth saying that this is actually the residence of the Holy See's, permanent observer to the United Nations. And, of course, the pope will be addressing the general assembly of the United Nations tomorrow morning. And this is an occasion although he's in the United States now, this is - United States. Tomorrow he's really speaking not just to the United States, he is speaking to the entire world.
COOPER: And certainly the entire world's press core is there. So his message to the U.N. tomorrow is very in a real way, a way to speak globally.
ALLEN: oh, absolutely. I mean, the not only is the United Nations the gathering of all the nations in the world, but the fact is that this pope is in a very real sense, arguably the most globally relevant figure that we have in the early 21st century. He's followed, obviously, in his own backyard in Latin America, his figure is of intense interest in the United States, but he is of intense interest in Europe, he's an intense interest in Asia. Of course, he's made two trips to Asia, one to South Korea, one to Shri Lanka, and the Philippines.
COOPER: By the way, I should just point out, we have now told, he has entered the diplomatic residence for the night in New York. So, he's there, which is why you see the security just kind of standing post as they will throughout the night.
ALLEN: And beyond the fact that people are interested in him, I think the other thing about him is that it's abundantly clear he makes a difference. I mean I think he's utterly revitalized the political and diplomatic relevance of the Vatican in our tie, which seemed to be at the low end not so long ago.
COOPER: In terms, though, of what changes have actually occurred, because obviously, there are doctrinal issues, which have not changed from his predecessors, so beyond just a different emphasis and emphasis on mercy and emphasis on greater flexibility for pastors, what else has -- what do you see as the difference he's made?
ALLEN: Well, listen, Anderson, I mean as journalist for us policy is king. OK? And so, if somebody is not making policy changes, you know, we have a hard time getting our minds around the fact that anything is different. But in father time can jump in on this in a moment but, you know, my feeling would be that seen through a Catholic lens, most Catholics don't actually expect the church to change doctrine. OK? Their question is how are we going to implement that doctrine at the retail level, OK, in the trenches? Are we going to put the emphasis on judgment or are we going to put the emphasis on mercy? Now, that may sound abstract. Let me give you a practical example.
Let's - you know, we all know that in Catholic schools in many parts of the world, certainly in the United States and Europe, these days there are going to be some kids in the schools who come from same-sex couples. Okay? How does the school react to that? Okay. One option would be to say to the parents, listen, we don't want you taking part in the life of the school because we think this is going to create scandal and it's going to confuse people about where we stand. Another option would be to say hey, we're so thrilled you're here and we want you to be part of the life of the school because some contact with the faith is better than none at all. Now, those are both perfectly consistent with the official doctrine.
COOPER: It' just question of emphasis. ALLEN: Well, they give a very different vibe ...
COOPER: Right.
[20:45:00]
ALLEN: Right, about what the church is about and it is very clear that Francis is encouraging that second more open, more compassionate, more merciful option.
COOPER: Father Martin, I've heard him say not on this trip, but in the past that communion is not a reward for the perfect, it's medicine for the sick. And it's an interesting way, again, it's kind of what John was talking about is two different ways of looking at the same thing and looking at it in slightly different ways.
MARTIN: Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought up that quote. It's very moving because it does move us from this idea that if you don't follow the rules, you know, you're not allowed in, right? Which was I think the way that a lot of people looked at the Catholic Church over the past, say, 30 or 40 years versus we are all sinners, he talks about that himself. He said I'm a sinner. We all need mercy, right? We all need the sacraments, we all need forgiveness. That's a much different way of talking about things. There are still rules, obviously. I mean every organization needs rules. Jesus gives us rules. The church tradition gives us rules. But this notion that all of us are kind of on the way, all of us are pilgrims, all of us are struggling is much more welcoming and frankly it's much more along the lines of what Jesus is talking about.
One of my theology professors said, which I thought was really beautiful, Jesus doesn't condemn people who are weak and trying, right? Jesus condemns people in the gospels who are strong and not bothering, basically, people who are wealthy or powerful and don't bother with the poor. He doesn't condemn people who are sinning and trying and that's the people that Pope Francis is trying to remind you're welcome in the church.
COOPER: And it goes beyond just, I mean a cynic would look at it and say this is an attempt to reinvigorate the church, get more people in the pews, but it goes - I mean I think most people would see this man and say for him it goes far beyond just that.
MARTIN: Yeah, a cynic would say that, I mean because I think, you know, that's the way cynics look at things. But this is Jesus' message, basically, this is Jesus's message to - he was always going out to people on the margins. He went out to the woman at the well, he spoke to a Centurian, he spoke to people, he was not normally supposed to talk to, lepers and people in the outskirts. And the movement for Jesus is always from the outside in. So, Pope Francis is reaching out to the LGBT community, he's reaching out to divorce and remarried Catholics, the women who have had abortions, the people who feel disenfranchised from the church and trying welcome them in. He's pulling them in, basically, which is the movement for Jesus.
COOPER: And is that something, Father Rosica, that you think that message has filtered down? I mean I imagine it's easier for some bishops, for some priests in some parishes to do that, harder for others?
ROSICA: His style has stopped us in our tracks. I think we asked about what changes is he bringing about, certainly not in the doctrinal level, he made that clear this past week on the plane, but what he's changing is the language, the style, the presence, we have in this man a pastor. He had extensive experience. I met some of the people with whom he worked in Argentina and after crying for ten minutes, normally they start crying. I said what was it about him? Collaboration, presence, access, freedom. This guy is completely free, no institution, no human being, no structure is going to enchain him. He's top from that sense. He wants to be out there. He allows himself to be touched, he's unafraid, but the other thing, too. The love of Scripture, the daily homilies are the biggest, very important change for us, priests. There is a lot of priests who've said to me, did you see what he said this morning? How can he get away with that? What's he doing? How come he's not harping on this point or that point?
He has a wonderful understanding of the word of God and its application to everybody's life. Those homilies, which are unscripted. He doesn't have notes. People have said, what kind of notes? I've been there when he celebrates the mass, and it comes from his heart, which gives me some insight into him, there is a profound spirituality, that judge with sense - he's - to the court, there is no doubt whatsoever, but he doesn't flaunt it. Even - about it sometimes, he says this. The other thing that's really beautiful about him, is to watch him where he's most comfortable. I'll never forget in the bario, in the Favela, in Rio de Janeiro, during the World Youth Day, he went to this violent bario. They had to disarm it for weeks before he got there.
COOPER: For somebody that doesn't know, favela in Rio - tough neighborhood.
ROSICA: A violent, violent slum.
COOPER: A lot of times police don't even go.
ROSICA: It was incredible to watch the freedom and he went in this hovel where somebody lived with 22 people in the room and sat down. It was sort of like having grandpa come for a glass of - mate, and it's that freedom, which is very off putting to many people, because he's telling us, he told us in a homily tonight, the qualities necessary to be a servant, a priest.
COOPER: We just have to take a short break. Our coverage continues. We are on until 10:00 hour tonight. So much to talk about and so much to show you about what else occurred today. Something extraordinary moments we've seen. We'll be right back.
[20:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Pope Francis' visit to Washington and now in New York is remarkable in many ways including a true remarkable volume of security. CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck joins me now. You know, Harry, Jim Sciutto was reporting that some people close to the pontiff have said that he's been frustrated by the level of security. Can you just explain what goes into a protection detail like this? Because it's - I mean it's not just more than 5,000 NYPD officers, it's also Secret Service, it's also Vatican security and a lot of local, state and federal agencies, as well.
HARRY HOUCK, CNN ANALYST: Right, exactly, Anderson. The amount of coordination that goes behind this, I mean as soon as they found out that the pope was coming to New York, that's when the planning started. Now, the last five years that I was on the job, I was assigned to work to protect diplomats, heads of state for the U.N. General Assembly and I'm amazed every year that I did it, how the coordination between the NYPD and nobody knows New York City like the NYPD, the Secret Service, the FBI, the State Department and the law enforcement agencies combined, all work together in a communication and a planning of this and every year that I've done it it's gone off perfectly.
[20:55:09]
And today it went off exactly like they wanted to.
COOPER: You know, I just ran into Chief Waters, the chief of counterterrorism for the NYPD who I rode around in a helicopter with. And he is a great guy. He was used down here, checking out things on his own, you know, wanting to see everyone in eyeball, everything he said that things seem to be going really well. He's clearly had a lot of sleepless nights. But clearly, for a pope known for where wanting to greet people, to shake hands, to kiss babies, to be immersed in a crowd, that's got to be those are the moments of -- that have got to be of greatest concern.
HOUCK: Right. You know, let's say he is going down Fifth Avenue. He sees a baby he wants to bless. He tells a driver, stop here. I want to get out. That's when we get nervous, but we have people there in the event this happens and what is good about it also is, we don't know where he's stopping and if anybody is planning to attack him, they don't know where he's stopping either. You know, it just comes off where he sees something, he wants to take a walk. So, the driver has got to listen to him. He'll get out, he'll bless somebody, do whatever he's got to do, he'll be surrounded by NYPD, not only in the front, but also in the rare and the crowd there will be NYPD people there. So, I don't really have too much concern about that.
COOPER: Yeah, well they seem to be doing a great job and though I can imagine for him it is frustrating. Harry Houck, I appreciate you being with us. Just ahead, another live hour of "360" from here outside St. Patrick's Cathedral. What a day this has been. So many sights and sounds to tell you about and to show you. After spending most of the day in the Washington, the pope is here in New York tonight. We'll have full coverage of this historic day and what is to come, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
