Return to Transcripts main page

NEWS STREAM

Pope to Deliver Address To U.S. Congress; Stampede Outside Mecca Kills at least 717; Chinese President to Visit White House. Aired 8:00a- 9:00a ET

Aired September 24, 2015 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KRISTIE LU STOUT, NEWS STREAM HOST: And, in just over an hour from now Pope Francis will become the first Pontiff to address the joint meeting

of the U.S. Congress.

We've been following breaking news out of Saudi Arabia and, in the last hour, the death toll of a stampede near the holy city of Mecca has

topped 450 and more than 700 people have been injured. Now, the crush happened while Hajj pilgrims were heading to the tense city of Mina for a

ritual called "stoning the devil". Now, we have some video that we received a short time ago, it shows the aftermath of the disaster, and a warning,

the images are disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Now again, this video, it's said to be taken right after the stampede, right after this major human disaster, thousands of emergency crews that

were sent there to the scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Now the stampede, it took place on the third day of the Hajj, and the third day is when the animal ritual known as "stoning the devil" takes

place, and the Hajj reenacts Abraham's throwing of stones at the devil to make him disappear. It coincides with the Muslim holy day of Eid Al-Adha,

which is one of two major holidays in Islam.

Now let's get the very latest from Becky Anderson in Abu Dhabi. Becky, this deadly stampede, it has now taken over 400 lives, walk us through what

happened.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this death toll has been rising, sadly, throughout the day. The latest that we are now

hearing from the Saudi civil defense is that 453 people have lost their lives and 719 are wounded.

Now, the details -- authorities say that at nine am. local time, a crowd surge lead to a stampede at a road intersection used by people

heading towards the largest of the (inaudible), those are the three stone structures that pilgrims throw pebbles at to symbolize rejecting evil. This

was about six hours ago now. And a massive recovery and rescue effort is now underway in the city of Mina. 4,000 rescue personal and some 220

ambulances have been deployed to the scene.

Now, this is a huge settlement of more than 100,000 tens, temporary accommodation for visiting pilgrims, and, just to set the context for you,

an a reminded of the enormous numbers of people involved, at least two million people were expected to attend Hajj this year, possibly as many as

three million. That would double or triple the population of Mecca and the surrounding area.

Now, in the past, Hajj has I'm afraid been blighted by stampedes and crushes, the worst in 1990 when almost one and a half thousand people died

in a crush in a tunnel which was leading to Mina.

Today, as you rightly point out, is the ritual of the "stoning of the devil", where people throws these stones or pebbles at the walls

symbolizing their rejection of evil and, on this particular day in the past there have been several tragedies. The most recent was almost a decade ago

in 2006, some 350 people were killed on a bridge which is notorious for bottlenecks and, at the time, that did prompt a tightening of security

because of course there are massive logistical and safety concerns for Saudi authorities who host these pilgrims as these millions descend on

Mecca, and, despite the billions of dollars spent on improving safety, some do still say that essential services in Mecca do remain dangerously

inadequate. By way of example, a recent article in Foreign Policy Magazine highlights that the Ajyad Emergency Hospital, which is adjacent to the

Grand Mosque in Mecca has only 52 beds.

Now, Saudi authorities have been aware that this pilgrimage is also a target for terror groups, as it has been in the past, and security this

year's Hajj was particularly intense, so there would have been something like 100,000 troops, police and counter terror units deployed there.

And of course, there has been this grim shadow over the event this year. The deadly accident earlier this month, the construction crane that

crashed through the roof of that Grand Mosque, very close to where the hospital is, killing 107 and injuring nearly 400. But the devastating news

for those who are there and the pilgrims who may have been in the past and for those watching this newscast is that some 453 people have lost there

lives and more than 700 -- 719 are the numbers that we have to date, injured, and dozens of ambulances we're told, you know, ferrying patients

to these sort of woefully inadequate hospitals at this point.

LU STOUT: Inadequate hospitals -- you mention the need for more beds. I know it's very early on, but are you hearing a discussion taking place of

concrete details of what needs to be done to make the Hajj a safer journey for the pilgrims?

ANDERSON: Well, we will be, I am sure. I think at this point it is early on, as I say, this was about six hours ago that this surge on this

sort of bridge happened. And the resulting video as we've seen is very disturbing. So, this is a search and rescue effort at this point, and, I'm

sure that the emergency personnel who are there on the ground doing there utmost to get those who's lives were not lost into these sort of relatively

adequate sort of facilities that have been set up for them.

But, yeah, it seems there will be an investigation into exactly what happened and how to prevent this. The last couple of years have been

relatively peaceful. As I say, it was 2006 when last there was a very significant stampede of this sort of extent and, since then, the security

and infrastructure projects have been put in place -- the sort of multi- tiering of roads on the journey towards Mina or Mecca in order so they could sort of keep people from the sort of crushing environments that

clearly can take place.

And, there is an investigation ongoing, King Solomon has called for this himself after the construction crane collapse and he said that he will

look to hold people responsible if this were deemed to not have been a very tragic accident. So, we will I'm sure in the hours to come find out that

there is an investigation ongoing into this.

But at this stage, with the numbers rising every hour, I think emergency services very much concentrated in trying to work out what is

going on on the scene.

LU STOUT: Alright, Becky Anderson reporting. Many thanks indeed for that. 453 people killed, the death toll rising. A very tragic day for

Muslims. Becky Anderson reporting live. And, there on the screen you are looking at a live video from near Mecca, Saudi Arabia, despite the major

human disaster that took place earlier today, hundreds of people killed, scores of people injured as a result of that deadly stampede, the journey

goes on there during the Hajj.

Now in just over an hour from now, Pope Francis, he will become the first Pontiff in history to address a joint meeting of the United States

Congress. It is part of a six day tour of the U.S., and on Wednesday huge crowds greeted the pope in Washington before he was welcomed at the White

House by President Barrack Obama -- a Pope Francis craze, Mr. Obama's efforts to fight climate change and discuss the plight of undocumented

immigrants living in America.

Now, Pope Francis is expected to weigh in on more divisive issues when he addresses congress in just over an hour from now. CNN's Jim Sciutto has

more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This morning Pope Francis making another historic stop on his world wind U.S. tour, this time speaking

before congress on Capitol Hill, a first for any pope.

JOHN BOEHNER, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: There's one thing we know about this pope, he's not afraid to take on the

status quo or not afraid to say what he really thinks.

SCIUTTO: House speaker John Boehner, and Vice President Joe Biden, two of the most prominent Catholics in Washington, will be seated right

behind the pope, who may touch on divisive political topics such as same sex marriage, abortion, even the Iran deal.

At the White House Wednesday, a preview of sorts as the Pontiff tackled immigration.

POPE FRANCIS, CURRENT POPE OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: As the son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was

largely built by such families.

SCIUTTO: He also spoke out strongly on climate change.

POPE FRANCIS: Climate change is a problem. We can no longer be less to our future generations. When it comes to the care of our common home, we

are living at a particular moment of history.

FATHER ENWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: For him, these our issues of the gospel because they affect the people, especially the poor. And he

sees himself as a man on the side of the poor.

SCIUTTO: In keeping with his style, the pope has decided to forgo a lunch with members of the congress, instead, after his address, he will go

to Catholic charities, where he'll meet with some 200 homeless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LU STOUT: And that was CNN Jim Sciutto reporting.

Now CNN's Michelle Kosinski joins me now live from the White House. Michelle, when the Pontiff speaks to congress what will you be looking out

for?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Those big issues. I mean, he's coming at a time when the political debate in this country has

really reached a peak. The government might shut down over whether or not to fund Planned Parenthood, which provides abortions mainly to poor people

in this country. So, we want to hear what the pope will say about those hot button issues.

His style, of course, isn't to get involved politically. He approached all of these subjects from a moral standpoint and a spiritual standpoint,

but, when you listen to what he said here on the White House lawn -- I mean, he launched immediately into immigration, the importance of

immigrants to this country and to the history of this country. I mean, in his second sentence he mentioned that and described himself as being a

children of immigrants as well, launching right into climate change, and that prompted criticism of him by members of this congress. At least one of

them plans to boycott his speech before congress because of his stance on climate change. A really interesting situation there with so much

sensitivity to some of these issues that are continuing to be debated.

So we want to hear what else he'll touch upon. Will he talk about abortion? Will he possibly even get into gun control? Many of these issues

-- you know, his stance is aligned with the White House on some of the social issues, but of course there is a big gulf on abortion, on gay

marriage.

The pope, when he speaks to world leaders and when he speaks publicly, he doesn't tend to offer a rebuke to the government to the way that they're

handling things. It tends to be more of encouragement is how he described how he'll address congress.

So, we don't expect there to be some stinging criticism of how certain things have been handled in America, but definitely examples that he will

pose for the way he thinks things should go in his terms of a moralistic standpoint, Kristie.

LU STOUT: All right, Michelle Kosinski reporting live for us with a preview of the big speech. Many thanks indeed.

You're watching News Stream and o stay with us as we continue our breaking news coverage of that deadly stampede during the annual Hajj

pilgrimage. Live pictures there from near Mecca. We'll have the latest when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LU STOUT: And we are back with an update on breaking news. Saudi Arabia now says at least 453 people were killed in a stampede during the

Hajj pilgrimage near Mecca. At least 719 people were injured. And this amateur video, it appears to show the aftermath. If we can bring it up for

you in just a moment.

It happened as pilgrims were taking part in a ritual known as stoning the devil in the tent city of Mina.

A scene of chaos there and victims there lying on the ground.

Now the ceremony, it comes at the end of the Hajj season. Hundreds have been killed in past years during this same ceremony.

And for more, I'm joined now once again by Fawaz Gerges from London. He is the chair of contemporary Middle East studies at the London School of

Economics.

Fawaz, again, you know, this is not the first time this has happened. This is not the first deadly stampede to take place at the Hajj. So why,

why is this happening again?

GERGES: Well, you're right, it's not the first catastrophe. This is the worst catastrophe since 1990. In 1990, more than 1,200 pilgrims died

as a result of the surge of the crowd. The pushing, the shoving, the passions, the heat.

I mean, just for your own viewers, and I know they know this, you have between two and three million pilgrims who visit al Hajj or Mecca every

year. It's a massive, massive crowd

al Hajj is one of the five pillars of Islam. It's part of the identity of Muslims. Every Muslim man and woman must at least make the

journey once in a lifetime at least if he or she is capable. And millions do.

So, what you have is for three days before Eid al-Adha, today's Thursday is Eid al-Adha, one of the major holidays in Islam. Basically,

the crowd surge, they want to enact the ceremony, the ritual that the profit Abrams (ph) did by stoning the devil that is because he did not want

to be tempted by the devil. And on the third day you have, Kristie, tens of thousands -- and I would argue hundreds of thousands -- in the same spot

at the same time they want to symbolically perform the same ritual and stone the devil.

So you have passions very high, excitement, the temperature is more than 110, 45 degree, surging and flowing and such catastrophes take place.

It's really very tragic on this day, which is one of the most sacred holidays in Islam.

[08:16:48] LU STOUT: Very tragic, more than 450 people killed. And it follows that deadly crane accident in Saudi Arabia.

So Fawaz, what does this say about the ability of Saudi authorities to protect its visitors and to protect its own people?

GERGES: You know, I mean, again this is a very, very important question because Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam, is where the

Prophet Muhammad was born, it's the place of the two holiest places, Mecca and Medina, the Kind of Saudi Arabia, King Salman, is -- his title is the

custodian of the holy places Mecca and Medina. This is a very sensitive question for the kingdom, because the kingdom wants to come across as the

custodian of Mecca and Medina to provide security and safety.

And as you said, after two weeks ago, a construction crane collapsed on the heads of pilgrims. More than 100 people were killed, 400 injured.

And the kingdom went out of its way. To say that we will punish the ones who were responsible for this particular disaster and there is a family by

the name din Laden, very, very familiar. It was basically the authorities basically applied exerted punitive measures against the company because it

was not -- the safety measures were not really ironclad.

In 2006, again, more than 400 people were killed and the kingdom invested almost 1.5 million dollars in expansion of the space, in

technology, in crowd control. Obviously all the measures that have been taken are not enough as we have witnessed today.

But again when you have between 2 million and 3 million people at the same place in Mecca, a relatively -- or in Mina three kilometers from

Mecca, it plays to enact this particular ceremony.

Accidents happen. But such catastrophes should not happen. So I would argue -- and I hope that the Saudi authorities will take a closer

look at what needs to be done, the extra measures, the technology, the crowd control, trying to find weighs and means to prevent such

catastrophes, not only because -- I mean, it's a responsibility of the kingdom to provide safety and security because I also reflects politically

badly on the authorities in the kingdom and their inability to provide safety and security for the pilgrims who come from all over the world.

Here I am in the United Kingdom, more than 25,000 British Muslims basically make the journey every year. Americans as well -- Indians,

Chinese, I mean, Indonesians, Malaysians. I mean, this is again part of the identity of Muslims worldwide. You have between one billion and 1.3

billion Muslims worldwide. And almost every one of them, almost, would like to make this particular journey and walk in the footsteps in the

prophet and enact the ritual of the Prophet Abrams (ph) in Mina.

LU STOUT: Fawaz, I absolutely agree with you, such catastrophes should not be allowed to take place again. Fawaz, please stay with us,

because I want to get your thoughts on this next story, just an additional event that happened on what this is a very, very tragic day for Muslims.

At least 29 people were killed when a bomb exploded at a crowded mosque in the capital of Yemen. And officials there say that number could

rise, because dozens of people were seriously wounded.

On your screen, you're seeing this amateur video. I purports to show the aftermath of the first explosion and the moment the second one hit.

Now CNN cannot independently confirm its authenticity. This all happened in Sanaa as worshipers prayed. And so far, no one has claimed

responsibility.

Now it is the sixth attack on a mosque on Yemen in the past three months.

Now let's go back to Fawaz Gerges who joins me live from CNN London. Fawaz, a tragic day for Muslims in Yemen on Thursday, what have you learned

about that bomb attack and the impact of these two twin disasters -- what happened there in Yemen and what happened at the Hajj, the impact that will

have on Muslims around the world.

[11:21:01] GERGES: I mean, I think they're both tragedies, no doubt, human tragedy on a tremendous scale. But let's -- I mean, they're not

related.

What has happened in Yemen -- this is as you said, Kristie, the six attacks against mosques. Basically there's a group in Yemen called al

Houthi. Al Houthi is a partly Sunni, partly Shiite, or Yazidis, depending - - Zadi's (ph) depending on how you define, how they define themselves.

The five attacks, the five previous attacks against the Houthi group, a relatively minority, large group minority. They represent about 22

percent of the Yemenis, were claimed by ISIS or the so-called Islamic State. The Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the five attacks

against the Houthi mosques all over Yemen. And they killed hundreds and injured hundreds of Yemenis, not just in Yemen, also in Kuwait and also in

Saudi Arabia.

Remember, ISIS, or the so-called Islamic State, is a hyper sectarian Sunni organization. It tries to tap into this creeping sectarianism in the

region, try to depict itself as the sole defender of Muslims. It has a genocide ideology against the Shiite, the Shiite represents about 11

percent of Muslims where the Sunnis about 89 or 90 percent. And basically in Iraq, in Syria, in Yemen, even in Libya, in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, it

has been relentlessly targeting minority mosques.

I mean imagine on one of the holiest days of Islam, Eid al-Adha, you have a group like ISIS, or al Qaeda, basically going into a mosque and

exploding other suicide bombing and killing worshipers. It tells you about this criminal, savage, vicious, mindset.

So, I have no doubts in my mind it's either the so-called Islamic State or al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula, even though there is a struggle

for power between ISIS, or the Islamic State and al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula.

The al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is the official arm of al Qaeda central, the Osama bin Laden Aymen al Zawahiri.

And what ISIS has been trying to do is to outbid al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and say we are the ones standing up to defend the Sunni

community because you have a civil war in Yemen, you have a major war basically partly civil war, partly a regional war by proxies.

So my take on it even though ISIS, or the so-called Islamic State, has not taken responsibilities, you're going to see in the new few hours that

Daesh or ISIS or the Islamic State taking responsibility and saying we have killed the apostate Zayidis (ph) that is a Shiite-based group even though

they're really more closer to the Sunnis than the Shiites, but the Islamic State, the so-called Islamic State or ISIS and use them as minorities and

apostates as a fifth column in the heart of Sunni Islam.

LU STOUT: We appreciate the context behind that mosque bombing in Yemen. It is a day of terror, a day of tragedy there in that country.

Fawaz Gerges, thank you very much for your insight.

Now you're watching News Stream, coming to you live from Hong Kong. And coming up next, China's President Xi Jinping, will dine with President

Barack Obama at the White House this evening. And there could be some tough talk over dinner.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:15] LU STOUT: Now there's been a tragedy on the third day at the Hajj in Saudi Arabia. At least 453 people were killed in a stampede,

that's according to the Saudi civil defense ministry.

Another 719 were injured. Those numbers have climbed sharply in the last hour. Pilgrims were at a ritual known as stoning the devil. That

happens near Mecca in the tent city of Mina.

Now, the Chinese president met with some of the top names in U.S. business on the second day of his trip to the United States, an event in

Washington State. Xi Jinping met Apple's Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, among others. And joining him were Ali Baba's Jack Ma and other

Chinese tech executives.

Now later, Mr. Xi toured a Boeing factory and announced a multi- billion dollar deal for Chinese companies to buy 300 more Boeing jets this year.

Next, President Xi heads to Washington where he'll meet with U.S. President Barack Obama for dinner. And joining us now for more on this

story is Andrew Stevens here in Hong Kong. Now, Andrew, what was President Xi's message to top U.S. business and tech leaders in Seattle?

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, his message has been the same pretty much since he made that policy speech right after

he touched down in Seattle, which is -- we are listening and we want to level the playing field for U.S. business in China, Kristie, and we also

are not responsible for cyber hacking, for cyber security. We are a victim as well. He's repeating these sorts of lives.

But certainly cyber security has become the topic of this trip. I mean, it has been a big topic. It's been a big stumbling block between the

-- or in the middle of the relationship between these two economic super powers. But it really has become front and center. And that meeting with

Mr. Obama between the two presidents is going to be very interesting, people saying sources close to the president saying it is going to be very

robust, a very full and frank discussions.

And a lot of it is expected to center around the complaints that would be made by the executives, the CEOs of some of the companies that Xi

Jinping met when they sat down for that forum with the U.S. and the Chinese business people in Seattle. It is the fact that they say that U.S.

companies are being frozen out in a lot of market access, that there is intellectual property right issues, continued property right issues, in the

form of piracy, in the form of hacking, particularly hacking, which is leading to billions of dollars of losses for U.S. companies, that they're

not being treated fairly in China.

Now, whether the Chinese actually take steps to do anything still remains to be seen, Kristie. Obviously, Mr. Xi wants to see -- would like

to see a lot of foreign investment in his country, because the country is going through a bit of a slow down at the moment. But it depends on how

much the state is prepared to relinquish in terms of power, if you like, in terms of allowing these companies to get in and do what they want to do.

There's going to be a tradeoff perhaps a very uneasy tradeoff, but at this stage it's just talk. And that talk will continue in Washington.

[08:30:22] LU STOUT: All right, Andrew Stevens reporting. Many thanks indeed for that.

You're watching News Stream. We'll be back right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LU STOUT: I'm Kristie Lu stout in Hong Kong. You're watching News Stream. And these are your world headlines.

Now more than 450 people have been killed and more than 700 injured in a stampede near the holy city of Mecca. Now the crush happened while Hajj

pilgrims were taking part in a ritual called stoning the devil. I'll bring you more details in just a moment.

Now at least 29 people were killed when a bomb exploded at a crowded Shiite mosque in the capital of Yemen. Officials say that number could

rise, because dozens of people were seriously wounded. ISIS has reportedly claimed responsibility. It is the sixth attack on a mosque in Yemen in the

past three months.

Now, in just under an hour from now, Pope Francis will become the first pontiff in history to address a joint meeting of the U.S. congress.

It is part of his six day tour of the United States.

Now Wednesday, the pope did not hesitate to take sides on a series of controversial issues as he toured Washington.

The Chinese president met with top names in U.S. business on the second day of his trip to the U.S. At an event in Washington State, Xi

Jinping met Apple's Tim Cook, and Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, among others.

Now later, Mr. Xi toured a Boeing factory and announced a deal to buy hundreds more Boeing jets this year.

Now, let's return to our breaking news story this hour: the deadly stampede near the Muslim holy city of Mecca. More than 450 people have

been killed.

Let's get the very latest from Becky Anderson. She joins us live from Abu Dhabi. And Becky, a very grim scene at the Hajj as the death toll

rises. What's' the latest.

ANDERSON: Yeah, it's tragic, isn't it? The death toll has been rising throughout the day, I'm afraid. The latest that we are hearing from

the Saudi civil defense is that 453 people have died and 719 are wounded.

Now authorities say that at 9:00 a.m. local time, which is about six- and-a-half hours ago now, a crowd surge led to a stampede at a road intersection, which is used by people heading towards the largest of the

Jamrat (ph), those are the three stone structures that pilgrims throw pebbles at to symbolize rejecting evil.

Now, a mass recovery and rescue effort underway in the city of Mina. 4,000 rescue personnel deployed to the scene and 220 ambulances also.

Mina is a huge settlement of more than 100,000 tents. This is temporary accommodation for visiting pilgrims and a reminder of the

enormous numbers of people involved in this pilgrimage. At least 2 million people expected to attend this year. Some say as many as 3 million, that

would double or triple the population of Mecca.

And these scenes, as you can see here, just really reflecting that. In the past, the Hajj has been blighted by problems. The worst crush

happened in 1990 when almost 1,500 people died in a tunnel leading to Mina. And as I say, this is the ritual of the stoning of the devil today where

people throw pebbles at the wall symbolizing the rejection of evil.

And on this particular day of Hajj in the past there have been several tragedies, the most recent was a stampede almost a decade ago. Then, 350

people were killed on a bridge, which is notorious for bottlenecks. And that did prompt a tightening of security, because of course there are

massive logistical and safety concerns for the Saudi Authorities who are of course hosting these millions who descend on Mecca.

And despite the billions of dollars spent on improving safety, some still do say that essential services in Mecca remain dangerously

inadequate. The infrastructure, the road system, the multi-tiering of the entrances in order to sort of gravitate people away from these crushes one

thing.

But by way of an example of perhaps the inadequacy, a recent article in Foreign Policy magazine highlights that the Ayad (ph) emergency

hospital, which is adjacent to the grand mosque in Mecca has only 52 beds.

Now, you'll remember that at the beginning of this month, there was an accident or an incident near to that Grand Mosque when a crane, a

construction crane crashed through the roof of that grand mosque killing 107 and injuring nearly 400. So it's not like the emergency services

haven't had to deal with something recently, the last couple of years, Kristie, has been relatively peaceful and sort of stampede and crush free,

but clearly today a very, very tragic scene 453 dead, as many as 719 -- and that number could rise -- are injured.

[08:36:31] LU STOUT: Yeah, a terrible human disaster. And to think that it could have been prevented just adds to the tragedy. Becky Anderson

reporting, thank you so much for that.

Now, in the last hour, I spoke with Ethar al-Kethani. She is a Hajj pilgrim. And she joined me on the phone from the scene near Mecca. And

here is how she described the scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)s

ETHAR EL-KETHANI, HAJJ PILGRIM: There's a lot of ambulances here. And you can probably hear a helicopter, which I think is landing probably

to take pilgrims. But in the meantime, people are still walking they are still continuing their ritual. I'm walking right now. It's really hot,

40-something degrees Celsius, over 110 or 115 Fahrenheit.

Lots of people walking, no umbrellas, a lot of young people, a lot of really old people and thousands of people still walking to continue their

pilgrimage.

So...

LU STOUT: You're there at the site of when the stampede -- where the stampede took place. You're describing the intense here there. You're

saying despite this, you know, massive human tragedy that just took place that people continue on with their journey.

Have you seen the emergency response, emergency crews, doctors and nurses at the scene, especially to tend to the injured?

EL-KETHANI: Dozens and dozens of ambulances, so many ambulances, so many police. I think (inaudible) Saudi has really upped in the last -- the

last time I was here maybe 10 years ago there was none of this multi-layer. I see four floors above me that the pilgrims are divided by area and

section. The roads have become one way, so no one is actually walking back now.

But as you said, despite something like this today still happened, even though it's become so much more organized.

So, we're actually walking in lanes, divided by blocks. No one can walk back. It's only a one way system. But, you know, the heat, the

dehydration, the number of people keeps increasing every year. So, I think that will be part of the reason that lead to what happened today.

But, yeah, lots of refunders. I see -- like I can still do a helicopter landing at least 20, 30 ambulances passed me by ever since I

arrived the sound of the sirens hasn't stopped. It's been ongoing.

So, hopefully the injured people at least you know they can get a lot of them to hospitals immediately.

LU STOUT: Have you been able to talk to fellow pilgrims who were there when the stampede took place? About what exactly triggered the

stampede?

EL-KETHANI: So, there's (inaudible) people are saying, you know, some people tried to push back and then when someone pushes other people fall,

some people fall, especially the old, the elderly, the women. It is really hot. The heat makes you dizzy. So when someone falls, someone else falls

on top of them.

If even just a couple of people are trying to go against the wave, like I'm walking now. I see thousands of us. We're all walking in the

same direction. So -- and it's (inaudible) even though it's 2:00 p.m., which is the middle of the sun. It's really hot.

So, once we actually get closer to the pillar. I think I actually see it, so I might actually have to get off this call soon.

The pillar is really small relative to the number of people surrounding it. So it's the pushing. People who think they get more

blessings if they actually get closer to it. So it's the pushing and shoving I think that plays a role, which some people are saying played a

role.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LU STOUT: And that was Hajj pilgrim Ethar el-Kethani speaking to me earlier. And we are now learning that 717 people were killed in that

stampede. And the death toll just continues to rise.

We also learned that more than 800 people were injured.

This is the latest coming in to us from the Saudi civil defense via state run television.

Now let's get much more on this human catastrophe from Hugh Kennedy. He joins me now from London. He is a professor of Arabic at the University

of London School of Oriental and African Studies. And thank you so much for joining us here on CNN and on News Stream.

We just learned that more than 700 lives have been taken as a result of this deadly stampede. Why? Why has this happened again at the Hajj?

HUGH KENNEDY, UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: Because the Hajj is possibly the biggest gathering of human beings on the planet. And it is very, very

difficult to manage this number of people.

And it's not just that there are a lot of people there together, it's just that it's very important for them to be at certain places at certain

times. The rituals of the Hajj go back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad himself who, in his farewell pilgrimage really laid down the pattern of

what people should do to be -- to perform the Hajj correctly.

And it's a tragedy. It's a terrific tragedy for the people involved and it's a tragedy for Muslims around the world.

But it should be placed in the context of this immense event, which by and large goes off very peacefully and very successfully for the people

involved.

And it's tempting to say that very occasionally events like this are going to happen if you've got 2 million or 3 million people in a fairly

small area trying to do the same thing at the same time.

We all know from managing things like football crowds and so on how very, very difficult this is to do.

LU STOUT: You know, we can consider this as an inevitability, but bottom line this is a dangerous journey. It involves huge amounts of

people, as you point out, dizzying heat, one-way traffic. What safety improvements can be made to avoid more deadly incidents at the Hajj?

KENNEDY: It's simply a question of trying to create more space and more passage ways and more one-way systems. And no doubt the Saudi

authorities will be looking at this very carefully in order to see if this can be make every effort to stop this being involved, because it reflects

very badly. Look, here we are in around the world our eyes are focused on Saudi Arabia, they're focused on Mecca and for them it's a very bad -- at

least it's a very bad image that is being projected here.

And so they will make every effort to prevent this from happening again.

But the numbers grow and grow and grow. When the Hajj was as it were in its early days, the numbers were thousands, perhaps sometimes even less

than that. Now we're talking about 2 million. They all want to do the same thing as those thousands did 1,400 years ago. They all want to go to

the same places. They all want to throw stones at Mina and so on and so forth.

LU STOUT: And for Muslims, it reminds us of the deep significance of the Hajj and to make this journey at least once in their lives.

KENNEDY: Yes, that's an ambition is to make the journey at least once in their lives. And so the Hajj is a really big coming together. It's

really a demonstration you're belonging to the Muslim community. It's an immensely emotional event. It's always been a dangerous thing to do,

whether it was in the old days going across the Arabian desert on camels or whether nowadays it's gathering with all these people in the holy mosque

and the holy precincts in Mecca.

It's always been risky, but it's always something that Muslims have wanted to do in order to be part of the whole Muslim community an the whole

Muslim society. It's a demonstration of belonging. It's a demonstration of Muslims around the world coming together.

It's of immense importance. And the fact, of course, that it goes right back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad himself, gives it enormous

sanctity for the Muslim population.

LU STOUT: Yeah, and today hit by this terrible tragedy as we learn the stampede has taken the lives of at least 717 people.

And professor, we'll leave it at that. Thank you so much for joining us here at CNN.

You're watching News Stream. And coming up next, the Volkswagen scandal widens. Now Germany says there was cheating on emissions tests in

Europe as well. We'll get the latest from Berlin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:45:55] LU STOUT: Welcome back.

Let's update you with our breaking news this hour. The death toll of a stampede near the holy city of Mecca. It is top 700. More than 800

people have been injured.

And the crush happened while pilgrims were at the tent city of Mina for a ritual called stoning the devil. The ceremony comes at the end of

the Hajj season.

Now thousands of emergency crews, they've been sent there to the scene.

Now meanwhile, the pope is in Washington to address congress in the next hour. And CNN's Chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour

sat down with Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz, the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. That makes him the most senior

Catholic figure in America.

Now Archbishop Kurtz told Christiane that his belief that in tackling controversial issues facing the church, the pope is hoping to make it more

inclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you think this pope is a pope who wants to be defined by the culture wars, so to

speak? It is almost as if he's saying these issues of sexuality, of the social values -- yes, we have to do deal with them, but actually there's so

much more to deal with?

JOSEPH KURTZ, PRES. U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: He's a man of faith, he wants to point to Jesus Christ. And he says I want to see the

person before the idea. You notice that was a theme in Cuba. And he says, you know, the person means that I'm not going to spend all of my energy

arguing with someone. I will -- I will be true to my convictions. I'll be a son of the church, as he says it. I'm not changing church teaching. But

he said I truly want to engage. I want to learn from that person. And I want to make sure that everyone is welcome.

His talks yesterday, he must have said it three dozen times. He said, the message of Christ's salvation is meant for all of us, for everyone.

And then he said, no one is to be excluded. So he really I think is asking us to see that person.

And I do believe that brings out the best in people if cheers are any indication, and we saw a lot of it, including from our brother bishops.

That's a sign that he's touching a cord with people. And I kind of like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LU STOUT: And you can watch the rest of that interview coming up on Amanpour. That starts in about five-and-a-half hours from now only on CNN.

Now you're watching News Stream. And do stay with us as we continue our breaking news coverage of that deadly stampede during the annual Hajj

pilgrimage. We'll have the latest when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:06] LU STOUT: OK, let's take you live to Washington, D.C. There you see the pontiff Pope Francis. He is emerged. Greeting well

wishers, greeting his fans. Very, very soon, Pope Francis will become the first pontiff in history to address a joint meeting of the United States

Congress. This is all part of his six day tour of the United States.

And he will make history again when he makes that address to congress and he's also expected to challenge lawmakers on a number of divisive

issues.

He's expected to give a speech that will make politician uncomfortable. And though politicians may squirm in their seats while they

listen to that speech, just look at the number of well wishers and fans of the pontiff who are there in Washington, D.C. greeting him as he just left

his residence and prepares to make that historic speech to address a joint session of congress later today.

You can hear the crowds yelling at the pontiff there.

Now all of this is part of Pope Francis's six day tour of the United States. We heard earlier this week on Wednesday, Pope Francis, he did not

hesitate to take sides on a series of controversial issues as he tours Washington, D.C. This is a pope known as a maverick, as a reformer, as a

pope who takes a firm stance on issues like climate change.

Live pictures there on your screen of the pontiff Pope Francis as he's greeting well wishers there in Washington, D.C.

We talked earlier with our analyst John Allen about the pontiff's visit and says that the pope, he agrees with President Obama and his fight

for immigration reform, his stance on climate change. And he's been extremely well received by the American people. You see great crowds there

in Washington, and they'll be there no doubt after he gives that historic address on Capitol Hill.

Now, this is an interesting little detail. We know that he's also a humble pope. After the speech that he's going to be making to congress,

he's not going to have a lavish meal with politicians and lawmakers on Capitol Hill. In fact, afterwards he plans to go to a homeless shelter.

So you're looking at live pictures there on your screen of the pope, of the pontiff there in Washington, D.C. greeting his supporters, well wishers,

greeting the flock there in Washington, D.C. at the nation's capital. And he is pretty soon about to become the first pope in history to address a

joint meeting of the United States congress.

You're looking at live pictures there from America's capital. Again, Pope Francis there, part of a six day tour of the United States as he is

expected to make history as he gives that address to American lawmakers. And he's also expected to give a speech that will take on a number of

divisive issues.

Pope Francis handing hugs, touching hands, high fives with his flock and with the faithful there in Washington, D.C.

Now, he will be meeting and giving that speech before that joint meeting of congress within the next hour and that will be carried live here

on CNN.

Now again as part of his six day tour of the United States, he's expected to take on a number of controversial issues from immigration

reform to climate change. He's known as a pope who is not afraid to speak his mind. And people there in Washington, they are expecting him to give a

challenging address, really challenge lawmakers on a number of thorny and divisive issues and give a speech that could make some politicians, some

lawmakers there in congress to squirm in their seats.

So it's very interesting to see the pontiff being greeted by his supporters there in Washington as he's about to give a very what's expected

to be provocative speech in Washington, D.C.

Now this is a pope who is willing to shake up the political establishment in America and we're expecting him to give that speech and do

just that.

Now let's go to our sister network CNN USA for more on the pope's address.

END