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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

ISIS Ranks Surge; Warren Jeffs' Children Speak Out; Georgia To Execute Woman. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 29, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And then that happens. This is - this all played out near - at a gas station near Detroit. Fortunately, nobody was hurt. That's why we can kind of have fun with it. And you may be thinking, what was this guy thinking? Well, the driver did have the presence of mind to at least grab a fire extinguisher and put out the flames.

Thanks so much for joining us "AT THIS HOUR." LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Ashleigh Banfield, and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Whatever the civilized world is doing to stop the flow of world-be jihadists to Syria and Iraq, it is apparently not working. We're going to begin this hour with some breathtaking numbers from a task force that was commissioned by the House Homeland Security Committee. It is now believed that more than 25,000 foreign fighters have poured into that region since 2011. Seven thousand just this year alone. And they come from more than 100 different countries. In most cases, joining or making a big effort to join ISIS, who's online recruiting skills keep many a western government official up all night long.

One of those officials, President Obama. He is chairing a summit on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly on countering violent extremism. He said that anti-ISIS coalition now numbers 60 nations. And he echoed his own United Nations address yesterday on the ultimate solution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In Syria, as I said yesterday, defeating ISIL requires, I believe, a new leader, an inclusive government that unites the Syrian people in the fight against terrorist groups. This is going to be a complex process. And as I've said before, we are prepared to work with all countries, including Russia and Iran, to find a political mechanism in which it is possible to begin a transition process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to talk more about the growing threat and the global response with my CNN colleague Pamela Brown, who's live in Washington, D.C., with this report hot off the press. And we're also joined by CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. And also with us, CNN global affairs analyst and managing editor of the website Quartz, Bobby Ghosh.

And first to you, Pamela. Some pretty significant numbers. This is - this is difficult to read, but this is the largest global convergence of jihadists in history. Some serious reporting. But what about recommendations and solutions?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And it does lay out a number of issues and what they consider solutions. First of all it says, there's no global database of foreign fighters, and the U.S. needs to do a better job to lay out early intervention strategies for people who are radicalized. But the biggest recommendation, Ashleigh, from the report is to create a unifying document laying out a national strategy for combat terrorist travel. The report says the U.S. hasn't done that in nearly a decade. And it says, as a result, there are gaping security holes that are making it easier for people to join ISIS. You talk about the numbers. Even though an estimated 10,000 foreign fighters have been killed in military strikes, new foreign fighters replace them almost as quickly as they are killed. This report says that highlight the problem of preventing westerners from traveling to Syria despite stepped up efforts here in the U.S. of the 250 plus Americans who have joined or tried to join extremists in Syria and Iraq. This report says the majority, more than 85 percent, Ashleigh, still manage to evade law enforcement, several dozen have managed to make it back into the U.S. Many of them weren't even on U.S. law enforcement's radar to begin with because some of them radicalized so quickly online, they made it over before they were caught. That's just one example of the big issue here.

BANFIELD: Well, and as I look at the executive summary, the very final point that they make is that ultimately severing this foreign fighter flow is going to be at the hands of eliminating the problem in the first place.

And, Bobby Ghosh, to you. Yesterday we had two divergent opinions by two very powerful world leaders on how to do exactly that. The United States wants regime change, wants Assad out of Syria. And then the Russian president say saying, not so fast, look what happened when that actually was effectuated in Iraq. It could be worse than what you have now. So, to that end, is there any other solution on the horizon anywhere?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, neither of those two world leaders have offered any real solution apart from some fairly generic bromides about we should think in terms of a coordinated effort. No one's suggesting what that coordinated effort is going to look like. And these young men, and they're mostly men, who were - who were traveling around the world - from across the world to get to Syria, they don't really care what Vladimir Putin has to say or what Barack Obama has to say. They're going there in search of what in their minds is adventure, in search of an opportunity to join something that they would consider glorious, whether we agree or not.

[12:05:18] And I think that as the report points out, the - one of the great attractions for them is the - is the idea that you can get away with it. That you can go all the way there and you can participate in this military activity, and you can get away with it. There is no punishment for it. We're -

BANFIELD: So -

GHOSH: And that's the big problem. We have to create an environment. And when people know the cost of going there, we have to create a cost of going there.

BANFIELD: All right, and -

GHOSH: Liberal democracies are never really going to be able to stop their citizens from leaving their countries and going another way. That would change, you know, if we start putting travel bans like that, that would change what it means to be America and what it means to be American. That's always going to be hard to do.

BANFIELD: Is there -

GHOSH: The problem needs to be solved in Syria.

BANFIELD: Yes, and if that problem is solved in Syria, and if ISIS is wiped off the face of the map, that's something that is now making its way on to the campaign trail. Donald Trump making a comment to our Erin Burnett last night about what he thinks the solution is to fighting ISIS in Syria and Vladimir Putin's designs on being involved. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Why do we care? Let ISIS and Syria fight. And let Russia - they're in Syria already, let them fight ISIS.

Now, look, I don't want ISIS. I don't want ISIS. ISIS is bad, they're evil. When they start doing with the head chopping and drowning of every - these are really bad dudes. So I don't want them. But let them fight it out. Let Russia take care of ISIS.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Colonel Francona, somebody who has spent a lot of time in that zone and actually knows the ramifications of those sort of simplistic statements, what's your read on that kind of a strategy?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I don't think that's going to work. You know, the Russians are there, but they haven't - they didn't bring the force package big enough to take on ISIS. They can support the Assad government, which is what we're going to see them do. This is just like the Turks saying they're going to fighting ISIS, and then spend all their time bombing the PKK. The Russians are there to support Bashar al Assad. This - I think they're paying a lot of lip service to fighting ISIS. ISIS has to be defeated first militarily and then there has to be a solution. And I think we're being short sighted if we think we're going to accomplish regime change and the defeat of ISIS. We've got to pick one or the other, and I think reality is setting in. It has to be the defeat of ISIS. Wee can worry about Assad later. BANFIELD: No simple solutions to that end either. To the three of you,

thank you, Pamela Brown, Bobby Ghosh, and Rick Francona.

Before we move on, there is another key moment in the diplomatic history. President Obama today met one-on-one with Cuban President Raul Castro. Just feast your eyes on this image. There's a reason those cameras are going off, because he, of course, negotiated a historic resumption of diplomatic relations with the Cuban president earlier this year. Amid the smiles and handshakes, thorny issues still remain, however, over this decades old U.S. trade embargo and Castro is insisting it be removed. He also wants the return of the land encompassing Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. These are big issues for Congress, thorny issues for Congress. Stay tuned and stay tuned for a while on those two fronts.

Coming up next, for the first time, two children of convicted rapist and religious sect leader Warren Jeffs are coming forward to say that their father sexually abused them. The breaking news in a groundbreaking interview by CNN's Lisa Ling, and it's just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:12:12] BANFIELD: So, breaking news. For the first time, two children of Warren Jeffs have decided to sit down with CNN and make public some serious allegations against their father. Claims that he sexually abused them, too. Warren Jeffs, the head of the Fundamentalist Church of Ladder Day Saints now sits in prison for the sexual assault and abuse of minors. He has fathered more than 60 children with his estimated 78 wives, and now two of the 60 children are breaking their silence to CNN's Lisa Ling in a brave interview that you will see only here on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY JEFFS, SON OF WARREN JEFFS: One of my earliest memories is of him sexually abusing me. I was about four or five years old, and this is where my dad did it. I remember him telling me, you should never do this. And then he did it to me.

LISA LING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was not an easy endeavor to try and get them to speak. They are two of Warren Jeffs' many children. Two of four who have escaped from the FLDS.

LING (voice-over): He used the banner of religion to permit underage marriages and to cover up horrific acts, including the violation of his own child wives. In 2011, he was convicted on two counts of sexual assault of a minor and given a life sentence.

LING (on camera): They knew that we were going to treat them and their stories with dignity, and so they really allowed us into their worlds, and they shared with us things that they literally have not shared with some of their closest family members. They want the world to know. And particularly they want people who are still in the FLDS to know. People who still regard Warren Jeffs as the prophet, that this man was far from perfect.

How many kids do you think your father has molested?

BECKY JEFFS, DAUGHTER OF WARREN JEFFS: I don't know. Sometimes I think 10, 20. I hope it's not more than that.

LING: The hardest part about filming this episode was just trying to be respectful and sensitive to the things that Becky and Roy Jeffs had gone through. I mean these are two people who have just left the most closed, isolated community in the United States. They're almost like children who are experiencing things for the first time in their lives.

R. JEFFS: Had my first glass of wine last week. I learned how to swim yesterday.

LING: Wow. And would you just not have been able to swim?

R. JEFFS: We were taught not to.

LING: Why?

R. JEFFS: We were taught that the devil has control of the waters.

LING: What they've gone through was so horrifying, and so traumatizing. And for them to share this with me and with the world was incredibly brave and I appreciate them for having the courage to tell their stories. And their objective is to try and help the people who are still inside the FLDS.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:15:17] BANFIELD: And Lisa Ling joins me live now.

Unbelievable reporting. How did you get this story? How did they decide to actually come public with this?

LING: So, there's an organization that intercepts a lot of people who come out of the FLDS. And when Roy and Becky Jeffs, two of four of his kids that came out, decided to tell their stories, they suggested that they talk to us for our show, because they knew that we wouldn't be exploitative with their stories. And it's important to keep in mind that both Becky and Roy, they're not people who are eager to write books about their story. They don't want fame and fortune by any mean. In fact, they're still trying to just adjust to life outside of the FLDS. But they desperately want people to know about what their father was like before he became the prophet, because there still are thousands of people who believe that he is the direct hand of God?

BANFIELD: And to that end, they told you they want him to see this special in prison.

LING: Yes. Becky just called me yesterday and said, is there any way we can call the prison to see if father can watch this, because he really is the only person who can change things, because people have been so brainwashed into believing that anything that anyone says who leaves the FLDS is a lie, and that they are apostates. BANFIELD: Yes, but how do they think he has any interest in changing

anything? I don't think, you know, a better part of a decade in prison can necessarily change someone's views on the religion he has basically run for years.

LING: It's true, and I commend Becky and Roy so much because it was so brave of them to share the stories. And really they are trying to appeal to whatever goodness he still may have. And they're saying, father, we will still love you, but come clean, tell the people the truth and set them free. Because what he's been doing - first of all, he - he has banned all marriages from happening because he's the only person who can conduct marriages. So life is kind of at a standstill.

BANFIELD: Ironically, that's a good things, so there's no more sexual abuse of minors in these crazy celestial marriages of minors.

LING: It's true. It's true. But what also - they also say is that they don't believe that some of those men who ended up marrying minors actually wanted to do it. They had to do it. When Warren Jeffs, as the - as the hand of God, as the prophet, tells you to do something, you have to do it or you will be punished. You will be sent away to a house of repentance and separated from your family.

BANFIELD: And this is the other issue is that ever since he's been put away, and I covered this trial, I watched him gont (ph) and sick and ill be put away.

LING: Yes.

BANFIELD: And even after that, the reports emerged that he was still proselytizing and running his ministry from his cell. And Becky seems to think she knows -

LING: Yes.

BANFIELD: Maybe a theory of how it's happening?

LING: This isn't in the show, but Becky said that she was on his list of visitors years ago and she remembers certain family members going in and wearing watches that she believed were recording devices. And it was analyst kind of a mad frenzy as to who was - who would be wearing the watch to go in for the visitation. And she said that whenever she would go in with family members who had the watch on, he would spew these revelations to then be dictated to the people. The one time she went in with her sister and they weren't wearing the watches, he just talked to them like a normal human being. No revelations. So she believes that the way the people were receiving a direct translation of his revelations was through this recording device in a watch.

BANFIELD: Which is terribly illegal for everybody who may be listening to that.

LING: She doesn't know it's still going on.

BANFIELD: Wow. Wow. LING: But when she was allowed visitation, that was happening.

BANFIELD: I guess she's not visiting now.

LING: No, definitely not.

BANFIELD: Lisa, this is just fantastic reporting. Thank you so much.

LING: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And thanks for - for coming to talk to us about it. I look forward to the new season. Lots more other amazing series coming too.

LING: Yes.

BANFIELD: You'll have to come back and talk about them. But this one, "This is Life with Lisa Ling," airs tomorrow night, 9:00 p.m., right here on CNN.

And coming up next, the state of Georgia is about to do something that it has not done in 70 years, and that is execute a woman. A last minute appeal to save Kelly Gissendaner happening right now. Will it work? That story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:22:51] BANFIELD: Happening right now in Georgia, an 11th hour appeal to save the life of the state's only woman who sits on death row. It's been 70 years since that state has executed a woman. And that's likely about to change tonight unless this woman, Kelly Gissendaner, is granted clemency or another stay in the next few minutes. Gissendaner convinced her boyfriend to kill her husband back in 1987. But her path to the death chamber has been far different than the last woman that Georgia executed.

That woman was Lena Baker, a black maid who was put to death in 1945 for killing her white employer. Here's the story on that one. It took just four months from the actual killing till the trial. Her trial was a whopping four hours' long with an all-white male jury and not one defense witness. And just six months after trial, she was executed. Six months. In 2005, 60 years later, Georgia changed its mind and pardoned her saying that she should have been given clemency or at least charged with a lesser crime, not capital murder.

Back to Kelly Gissendaner. She's been on death row now for almost 20 years with appeal after appeal failing. And her own children are pleading for her life, releasing this video. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has grown and the changes that she's made are incredible. She's been a way better mom to me. She's so supportive of me. I can talk to her about anything, any troubles I have or anything that I want to celebrate. And I know that she's my biggest cheerleader. My brothers and I really want my mom to live. She is all that we have left. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: One of her sons is making a plea in person to the parole board, but so are his grandparents, his own grandparents. Those would be the parents of the victim of this crime, Douglas Gissendaner. They feel differently. They want Kelly Gissendaner executed.

[12:25:07] And they issued this statement to the matter. I'll quote. "As the murderer, she's been given more rights and opportunity over the last 18 years than she ever afforded to Doug who, again, is the victim here. She had no mercy, gave him no rights, no choices, nor the opportunity to live his life. His life was not hers to take."

Today's hearing comes just days after the pope again voiced his opposition to the death penalty. And just today, the Atlanta archdiocese sent a letter on behalf of the pope asking for commutation. And then there's this, too, the man who actually did do the murder of Douglas Gissendaner, Kelly's boyfriend at the time. He took a deal, and he, instead, is serving life. A life sentence, not a death sentence.

With us now from Atlanta, the Reverend Cathy Zappa, who is the last non-family member to see Kelly and was Kelly's theology instructor in the prison as well.

Thank you so much for being with us, Cathy. What were the last words that Kelly had to say to you when you met with her?

REV. CATHY ZAPPA, CATHEDRAL OF ST. PHILIP: Well, actually there were several of us there, which I think is a - a witness to how many people love and care for her, including her children. I - it's hard to remember the last words exactly. We'd been talking about so many different things. On the one hand, she's hoping to live, of course. Many of us are work and praying that she'll get clemency, and she has a really strong case for clemency. But on the other hand, she's preparing to die and has been preparing to die and saying her good- byes. So I think her words go back and forth between that holding on to hope and saying her farewells.

BANFIELD: You know, I had the good fortune to interview you in March about this -

ZAPPA: Uh-huh. Right.

BANFIELD: Because back in March, she was dead woman walking.

ZAPPA: She was.

BANFIELD: She was on her way but for a snowstorm. And then round two was a bad cloudy concoction of lethal injection material and that put off the execution. And I asked you back then, do you think your - I'm going to read my own words, "do you think you actions with respect to Kelly Gissendaner are going to have an effect on her execution?' Back then you said, "I hope."

ZAPPA: Right. BANFIELD: And what is the answer today?

ZAPPA: The answer today is, I still hope. And last time it didn't - we didn't stop the execution. It was strange circumstances that stopped the execution. But she was still walked by the gurney and faced her death and faced it with grace and faith that are hard for me to fathom. This time she's prepared to die, as she hopes to live. But what has really changed is the conversation about the death penalty in this state right now. So many people, surprising people from all different political background and religious backgrounds have come out and spoken on her behalf and heave really made a case to the board, written the board of pardons and paroles and the governor asking them to consider clemency. That has made a difference. And it's not just me, it's - there are so many people who have been really convicted themselves by what they've seen happen in the carrying out of this sentence.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you -

ZAPPA: Yes.

BANFIELD: Reverend, I - I completely respect everything you have to say. I have a tremendous outpouring of sympathy for Doug Gissendaner's parents and his siblings.

ZAPPA: Right.

BANFIELD: I understand his children feel different - you know, feel differently than the grandparents do. If - if Kelly gets clemency, and we should find out soon -

ZAPPA: Right.

BANFIELD: What would your words of comfort be to Doug's parents, Doug's family?

ZAPPA: That's a really hard question because I'm aware of how painful this has been and how hard it must be for them to see people like me speaking on Kelly's behalf. So I don't know that they'd want words of comfort from me. I will say that in getting to know Kelly and having a relationship with her, I have really started to care about Doug Gissendaner, too. And I pray for him. And I pray for them. And I hope that they can find healing. If the execution doesn't happen - and I hope they find healing and closure some way.

BANFIELD: Well, we certainly -

ZAPPA: And I believe it's possible.

BANFIELD: A confluence of conflicting emotion, especially having the pope just left here with such a strong message about the death penalty.

ZAPPA: Right.

BANFIELD: And how it's meted out. I mean you just heard the - ZAPPA: Right.

BANFIELD: The last person to die in Georgia and how that was meted out.

Reverend Zappa, they you very much, and I hope we get a chance to speak again.

ZAPPA: Thank you.

[12:29:48] BANFIELD: Have Ms. Gissendaner's lawyers exhausted every avenue already or do they have a good case in this latest appeal today? We're going to ask our legal experts just what exactly are they putting on the table in this last-minute, last-ditch effort to stop her execution?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)