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Police: Gunman Killed Himself; Gunman's Father Talks to CNN; Obama Has Spoken Out on Deadly Incidents; Mayor De Blasio's Proposal. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired October 03, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:11] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Seven p.m. Eastern, 4:00 p.m. Pacific, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.
Thank you for being with me. We begin this hour in Oregon, remembering the victims of the deadly massacre this week. And we now know the man who killed nine people and wounded nine others on the college campus then committed suicide.
We learned a short time ago when Douglas County sheriff, the sheriff there spoke to reporters in Roseburg, Oregon, that is when we finally learn that the shooter did indeed committed suicide right after carrying out that heinous act.
Also, the shooter's father today speaking out for the first time one on one with our Ryan Young. Ryan joins us now from just outside Los Angeles in California.
Ryan, I know you went to the door of this father, asked him to speak with you. And eventually he did come out.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly right. Poppy, you know, this is the toughest part of our jobs. You've done this before. You have to go knock on the door with somebody who's faced such an unimaginable type of tragedy, you want to ask them, could they speak to us?
And that's basically what we did. We had the conversation before we did the interview. He talked to us for about five minutes, and when you hear him, you'll understand the pain he is under. He wanted to make sure that he talked about the other families involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: Look, obviously, this has been a very tough time and we've talked just a little bit, but you said you're hurting not only for what's going on in your family, but obviously for the other families that have been impacted.
IAN MERCER, SON IDENTIFIED AS THURSDAY'S CAMPUS SHOOTER: Absolutely. I've been, as I said before, devastating on me and my family. But we're not alone in this. My heart goes out to all the other families that were affected by this, and I know words will not bring your families back, and I know nothing I can say can change what happened. But please believe me, my thoughts are with all of those families.
And I hope they can get through this.
YOUNG: And you talked before, you said you just really are at a loss for words when it comes to something like this. I mean, there are so many questions someone can ask you, but you really said you don't have answers for them.
MERCER: Sometimes you try to find the right words and there really isn't. There's nothing I can really say and find the right words. It's just -- sometimes it's overwhelming, and, you know, trying to understand how it can happen. It's just incredible. I mean, I'm at a loss for words right now even.
YOUNG: You told me before you didn't want to talk too much about your son, obviously, because you're going through so much pain, but you also realize that people are going to remember him differently now forever.
MERCER: Always be remembered for what he did on Thursday, I know that. I can't change that. At the moment, I'm just leaving it to the police to do their investigations as to, you know, his history and everything in his background.
I'm sure they will announce what they find all in good cause. Right now, I'm just going to leave it up to them. The only thing I would like to say, question I would like to ask is, how on earth could he compile 13 guns? How can that happen? You know?
They talk about gun laws, they talk about gun control, every time something like this happens they talk about it and nothing is done. I'm not trying to say that that's to blame for what happened, but Chris has not been able to get ahold of 13 guns, it wouldn't have happened.
YOUNG: That's a very powerful statement coming from you, so now I have to ask you, the idea, how did he get the 13 guns? You know, that's what everyone's going to want to ask now, even when you're asking that question.
MERCER: Look all over the world, you don't see these kind of mass shootings all over the world on a consistent basis like you do in the United States, so somebody has to ask the question, how is it so easy to get all these guns? How is it so easy? Thirteen guns, I've never held a gun in my life, I never want to. But I know there are people that do.
But you have to ask that question, how was he able to compile that kind of arsenal?
YOUNG: Did you know he had 13 guns?
MERCER: I had no idea he had any guns. I had no idea that he had any gun whatsoever. And I'm a great believer that you don't buy guns, don't buy guns, you don't buy guns.
YOUNG: So, even you want to change this, you want the gun laws to change.
MERCER: It has to change. It has to change.
[19:05:02] How can it not?
Even people that believe in the right to bear arms, you know, what right do you have to take people's lives? That's what guns are, killers, simple as that. It's simple as that. It's black and white. What do you want the gun for?
YOUNG: And my very last question, mentally, you said how did he have 13 guns, but a lot of people talking about his mental makeup. You say police are going to dig into that. What do you understand about his mental makeup?
MERCER: I'm going to let the police follow through with their investigations. Whatever they determine is something that they are going to find through the investigations, you know. I don't have any comment to make on his mental state. Obviously, obviously, somebody who killed nine people has to have some kind of issue, whatever it is, and let the police determine what they find.
PRODUCER: Could we add one more thing, too -- when was the last time you saw your son?
MERCER: Last time I actually saw him was before he went to Oregon. Last few days before he went to Oregon, we spent a little time together. I haven't seen him since he went to Oregon.
PRODUCER: Would you mind, sir, explain your relationship with your son, how was it?
MERCER: He was my son. He was my son, you know?
There isn't any kind of disharmony or any bitterness or anything like that between him and I.
When he was down here, we saw each other, went for dinner, you know, did things that sons and dads do, you know, just talk and he lived with his mother the whole time. So, he didn't come to live with me at all. And we had a harmonious relationship.
YOUNG: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: And, Poppy, the first thing I want to mention, the voice in the background, that was the voice of senior producer Bill Kirkus (ph) who travels with me all the time. We work as a team.
We had a lot of conversations off camera before we started rolling. And one of the reasons you heard him ask that question, because we didn't think he was going to go as long as he did. Just talk building the tragedy and what his family is facing.
One of the things that stood out is talk about 13 guns. How could his son have 13 guns? He tells us he was not aware of that and the idea is the son lived somewhere else, lived with his mother.
So, he claims he had no idea his son started picking up all these guns or even shot a gun before. You can understand his pain as he moves forward trying to process how his son is now connected to this horrendous crime where all of these families have been torn apart because of something his son did.
HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. Ryan Young, thank you very much for bringing that to us. We appreciate it.
When we come back, remembering the victims. The beautiful lives lost and those nine injured as well, including that man, the hero who put his own life at risk to save his classmates. Now strangers are coming to his rescue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:11:07] HARLOW: We are learning more now about the victims in the mass shooting at Oregon's Umpqua Community College. Those nine people who were killed range in age from 17 to 57 years old. We know the youngest victim was Cheyeanne Fitzgerald. He was among the students injured. She's currently in the intensive care unit.
Earlier her family gave a press conference from outside the hospital.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONNIE SCHAAN, CHEYEANNE FITZGERALD'S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) time, healing is going to be slow, but I know my daughter is going to be strong and she's going to get through this. She's 16 and in college.
COLLEEN FITZGERALD, CHEYEANNE FITZGERALD'S AUNT: She's a nursing student. She was in her fourth day. And when this isn't occurred she laid down on the ground and played dead. And that saved her life.
SCHAAN: Except for I was calling her.
C. FITZGERALD: Yes.
(INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
KYLIE FITZGERALD, CHEYEANNE FITZGERALD'S COUSIN: She is currently in ICU. She lost a kidney due to her gunshot wound. But she's having a tough day today. We're hopeful she will make a full recovery.
(INAUDIBLE)
C. FITZGERALD: She is starting to remember things. It's going to be a very long road physically and mentally.
K. FITZGERALD: She was shot through the back. It clipped her lung and got lodged in her kidney.
SCHAAN: So she is having a lung problem with this also. C. FITZGERALD: She's jumpy, as you can imagine, when she hears a loud
noise. She is starting to really remember the events and what happened. She was asked what her religion was and didn't say anything.
(INAUDIBLE)
SCHAAN: I heard there was a shooting at the college. I grabbed my purse, my keys, and flew out of my job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Well, her daughter remains in critical condition, as I said, in the intensive care unit. Her family has set up a Go Fund Me pages to help with those bills.
Other shooting victims who are injured also have Go Fund Me pages, including Chris Mintz who was shot seven times trying to save the lives of others. And get this -- look at that. More than $670,000 has been raised so far. The family asked for $10,000. CNN's Jean Casarez reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When a gunman opened fire at Umpqua Community College early Thursday morning, it was a scene of terror and chaos.
DISPATCHER: Somebody is outside one of the doors, shooting through the doors.
CASAREZ: The 30-year-old Chris Mintz reacted instinctively trying to save lives.
WANDA MINTZ, AUNT OF SURVIVOR WHO RUSHED GUNMAN: He tries to block the door to keep the gunman from coming in, gets shot three times, hits the floor.
CASAREZ: Even after being wounded and facing the killer, his family says Chris was thinking of his 6-year-old son.
MINTZ: Looks up at the gunman and says, "It's my son's birthday today."
CASAREZ: But that didn't stop the gunman from shooting Chris in his back, his stomach, his arms and his legs. According to his family, Chris was shot a total of seven times while trying to defend his fellow classmates.
Long before heroic actions at college, Mintz was a star at his local high school in North Carolina, number 71, defensive tackle.
[19:15:04] After graduation, joining the United States Army from 2004 to 2007, achieving the rank of specialist and being awarded a National Defense Service Medal. Now with two broken legs, his focus is on healing and spending time with his family. ARIANA EARNHARDT, COUSIN OF SURVIVOR WHO RUSHED GUNMAN: His vital
signs are okay. I mean, he's going to have to learn to walk again but he walked away with his life and that's more than some of the other people did.
CASAREZ: Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Amazing all of them here. As we heard the sheriff say today in the press conference.
Quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: I want to take a moment to read some of the memories that the victims' families have from their loved ones from the Oregon mass shooting this week.
Quinn Glen Cooper, 18 years old, his family saying he always stood up for people.
Jason Dale Johnson, 34 years old, was proud to be a Christian. His family says they felt like Jason had finally found his path.
Sarena Dawn Moore, 44 years old, the mother of two adult sons.
Treven Taylor Anspach, son of a firefighter who responded to the tragedy. Treven was larger than life and brought out the best around him.
The teacher, Lawrence Levine, 67, loved to fly fish.
Lucero Alcaraz wanted to be a pediatric nurse.
Lucas Eibel, 18, one of four quadruplets.
And Rebecka Carnes, 18 years old, from Merrill Creek. Her family in mourning, the niece of one of the paramedics who responded. Those are some of the memories of the lives lost on Thursday.
We also now know how the Oregon shooter's life ended after he opened fire in that English class that eventually killed those nine people.
[19:20:05] Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner has determined the cause of death of the shooter to be suicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Suicide. We found that out for the first time today. With me now, Kelly Posner Gerstenhaber, I hope I pronounced that
correctly. She's founder and principal investigator of the Center for Suicide and Risk Assessment at Columbia University.
Thank you very much for being here.
I heard you talking here and was struck and just sort of stopped in my tracks. I said, wow, they have a test for this. You developed a test that has been administered time and time again to help determine if people are suicidal. How does it work?
KELLY POSNER GERSTENHABER, FOUNDER, CENTER FOR SUICIDE RISK ASSESSMENT: So, it works -- it's a number of questions that can be administered in the hands of anybody. The policemen, the person who works in the gun store, the health care worker to help identify people who are at risk and make those distinctions.
HARLOW: What are some of the questions that are asked?
GERSTENHABER: Importantly, it's the first time that we have actually asked about the full range of suicidal behavior. And what that means is, in the past, somebody would just get asked, have you ever tried to kill yourself. And then you miss the person who bought the gun yesterday or put the noose around their neck.
HARLOW: And who's even thinking about it.
GERSTENHABER: And, you know, wrote a suicide note. Things we absolutely cannot afford to miss. You know what our science has shown us, that those are the overwhelming majority of serious suicidal behaviors that people engage in.
HARLOW: You cite a stunning statistic about the number of people who carry out mass shootings, active shooter situations, who are suicidal.
GERSTENHABER: Yes, 90 percent of shooters have well-documented histories of suicidal behaviors and suicidal ideation. So, if we screen, meaning ask a few questions, we might be able to identify some of the people to get them the help they need before it's too late. And beyond that, a third of them actually report suicide as their motive.
So there is a lot of overlap. In fact, you know, I remember when the navy yard shooting happened, Jim Sheldon (ph), was the deputy secretary is of the United States Department of Education sent an e- mail saying, you know, what is it going to take to make this ubiquitous.
HARLOW: Right, right. And I think this is part of what he said, right?
GERSTENHABER: Yes. If we implement these questions to the extent of their capacity across the country we have the potential to keep 64 million of our children safe physically and mentally by preventing school violence. HARLOW: So, how do you do that, right? If you talk about this man
who had 14 guns, all of them purchased legally, are you proposing that gun shop owners ask gun buyers these questions?
GERSTENHABER: Yes, I'm saying absolutely that can happen. We know these few questions have been ruled out through 40, 45 states top down. That means schools, police, grandmothers can do it, health care workers. It can be in the hands of everybody.
HARLOW: Do you think the public will accept that across the board? Because this is such a polarizing issue, that they will accept -- you know, I have to answer this question. Or should it be voluntary?
GERSTENHABER: I don't think it is about I have to or it being mandatory. Most people who are suffering actually want help. The issue is that people haven't historically asked the questions. You know that 50 percent of suicides have seen their primary care doctor the month before they die.
We should be asking these questions the way we monitor for blood pressure.
HARLOW: Just in the physical.
GERSTENHABER: Everywhere by everybody. We actually that it's starting to work very dramatically in places where we've implemented this.
So, for example, in the marines. The marines did a total force rollout, and they went to all 16 stations, including Okinawa, Japan, and they train all support workers. So, every time a lawyer or a clergy meets with a marine, they do this screener.
And you know what? They published an article. They've reduced -- since they have done that and other things, they have reduced their suicide rate by 22 percent and now 64 percent. Similarly in Tennessee, in the largest outpatient care provider community care provider in the United States, they reduced their suicide rate by 65 percent in 20 months.
And they brought it life --
HARLOW: By asking these questions.
GERSTENHABER: Right, they brought it to life, exactly, about -- by telling a story about a man who they had called a few times. He said he was fine. He said the last time you called me and asked me those questions I was on a bridge.
HARLOW: I was on the bridge.
Thank you very much, Doctor. I appreciate it. I didn't even know this existed. Thank you for telling us about it.
GERSTENHABER: Very wonderful for the opportunity.
HARLOW: Very, very much.
All right. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:27:56] SHERIFF JOHN HANLIN, DOUGLAS COUNTY, OREGON: And to the families of the victims, our hearts are with you. And you know that our hearts will be with you forever. Please know that we consider your loved ones to be our heroes. They will never be forgotten.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Just hours after Thursday's campus shooting in Oregon, a visibly angry and frustrated President Obama said Americans have, quote, "become numb to gun violence." He has spoken out after mass shootings 15 times during his presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We talked about this after Columbine, Blacksburg, after Tucson, after Newtown, after Aurora, after Charleston. It cannot be this easy for somebody who wants to inflict harm on other people to get his or her hands on a gun.
I have had to make takes like this too many times. Communities have had to endure tragedies like this too many times.
We come together filled with sorrow for the 13 Americans that we have lost. With gratitude for the lives that they led, and with the determination to honor them through the work we will carry on.
I have come here tonight as an American, who like all Americans to pray with you today and will stand by you tomorrow.
And the federal deposit ready to do whatever is necessary to bring whoever is responsible for this heinous crime to justice.
All of us are heartbroken by what's happened. I offer thoughts and prayers not only myself and Michelle but also the country as a whole.
And each time I learn the news, I react not as a president but as anybody else would as a parent. In our days to come, the community needs us to be at our best as Americans. And I will do everything in my power as president to help.
The lives that were taken from us were unique. The memories their loved ones carry are unique. And they will carry them and endure long after the news cameras are gone.
Any shooting is troubling. Obviously this reopens the pain of what happened at Ft. Hood five years ago.
The country has to do some soul searching about this. This is becoming the norm. And we take it for granted. In ways that as a parent are terrifying to me.
The good news is I am confident that the outpouring of unity, and strength, and fellowship and love across Charleston today indicates the degree to which those whole vestiges of hatred can be over time.
And each time this happens I'm going to bring this up. Each time this happens I'm going to say that we can actually do something about it. But we're going to have to change your laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: With me now, CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes. Tom, thank you for being here.
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: You called President Obama this week "mourner in chief." That's when you were speaking with my colleagues, Wolf Blitzer. Here's what you said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FUENTES: It is great on his part to come out and be so sympathetic and be the mourner in chief as he is after the events. But then when that settles, lead. Tell us what you want. Tell us where we should go. Tell us what the American people think will be a reasonable plan to address this kind of violence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: I know you want to hear what the president thinks. What do you think? What is the best plan?
FUENTES: Well, I think if nothing, let's study and find the best plan. You know, members of Congress are very eager to take junkets all over the world and visit other countries. But put together a bipartisan junket, go to Australia, go to the European countries that have passed laws that have reasonable restrictions on the ownership of firearms or the checking of people before they can purchase the firearm.
See why it has been successful in those countries. And then come back and try to have a reasonable discussion to come up with the solution. We had the terror attack of 9/11. We had a 9/11 Commission. We have other major events, we have commissions, and studies, and all kinds of analysis that goes into trying to find a solution.
And in this one we pretend like we are so upset. Let's pray for those people. We say that over and over and over. I wonder how many people actually say a single prayer. And two or three days, that's over. Let's move on. We have done nothing.
HARLOW: Well, tom the, it's interesting that you bring this up. Because yesterday House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi said, wrote a letter to John Boehner and said, "will you form this group of members of the, congressmen and women to come up with ideas, bring them to the floor within 60 days and let's have a bipartisan debate and inquiry." Similar to what we saw in the wake of Benghazi. Are you hopeful of something like that?
FUENTES: Well, I'll believe it when I see it, I guess, frankly. We have talked about it. We have had these suggestions. But we don't actually go and do it. I think that and then there is misinformation out there about what these countries have done the. Australia, when they had the massacre in 1996, Ft. Arthur massacre as well it was referred - the individual with an assault rifle killed 35 people. The law that was passed following that was in the same year in Australia.
It didn't ban the possession of assault rifles or automatic shotguns or several other that were listed. It just said that if you're going to have one, you can have one. The government wants you to register it. We want to know who does have these and what qualifications you have. So if you're a hunter, if you're a sportsman, you can have it.
In our country, when that has been suggested in the past, we hear expressions such as we don't want those jack booted thugs in the government coming to take our guns away. We don't want the president taking our guns away. The terminology jack booted thugs is what the Nazis were called, Nazi storm troopers.
To say that U.S. law enforcement is suddently going to be the equivalent of Nazis coming after you and taking away your guns, that's the kind of hyperbole we hear when there's even the slightest discussion that we are going to have anything reasonable. Again, it's not taking away or denying an individual to have the weapon, it's just saying, you know, when you buy something that powerful,maybe the government ought to know.
19:35:02
HARLOW: Tom Fuentes, thank you very much. We will see if this is the turning point as Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut said today on CNN. He believes it just might be where the two sides can come together and agree on something. Thank you very much.
FUENTES: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: The Oregon shooting has expectedly made its way into the conversation on the campaign trail. Tonight Donald Trump said he has a plan to keep schoolchildren safe. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: By the way, it was a gun-free zone. I will tell you if you had a couple of the teachers or somebody with guns in that room, you would have been a hell of a lot better off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: We have heard other candidates say that before, after the Sandy Hook tragedy mass shooting back in 2012. We heard some candidates say that. Several states passed laws that do allow teachers to bring guns to school. Oregon does not allow teachers to bring firearms on to school property.
This is a good time to remind you about the debate, CNN democratic debate Tuesday, October 13th, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, only right here on CNN. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
19:40:00
HARLOW: In tonight's American opportunity, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow. It has become a big issue in the race for the White House.
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio has proposed the so-called progressive agenda, a 14-point plan to try to close the income gap that includes raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and increasing taxes on the wealthy.
So we took a subway ride with him and also with the former Labor secretary and economist Robert Reichth who is out iwht a new book "Saving Capitalism." We went to the South Bronx to see the disparity first hand. It only took us 25 minutes to get from one of the wealthiest part of New York to the poorest congressional district in the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: What's your name?
How are you?
HARLOW (on camera): You wanted to bring me here.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY: Yes.
HARLOW: Why?
DE BLASIO: Because this is an example of the neighborhood, Melrose and the Bronx, that is really suffering.
But there are things that are to be done to address income inequality.
HARLOW: Mayor De Blasio wanted to take us on the 2 train up to the South Bronx to show us one of the affordable housing projects his administration has been promoting.
DE BLASIO: We went from a neighborhood where the median household income was $179,000 to here in the Bronx, $21,000 for a family, below the poverty level is the median income here.
HARLOW: In 20, 25 minutes.
DE BLASIO: Correct. That's all it took to go from one world to another effectively. I've often talked about the tale of two cities.
You know, our mission is to try and create more fairness, more opportunity across the board and we're using the tools of the city government to do it.
HARLOW: And to those who say Mr, Mayor, that sounds too socialist, capitalism not perfect. America, not perfect, economically, the best example there is in the world. What do you say to them?
DE BLASIO: There is no contradiction between a free enterprise system and a very energetic role in government, creating fair regulation and making some of the adjustments we need so that people can participate in a society fully. Look, we don't say there shouldn't be public education, right? I think there should be a muscular government role in creating affordable housing. That's how it gets done.
HARLOW: Where is that right balance? Because you don't want a society where everyone has the same.
DE BLASIO: I don't think it is conceivable to have such a society with human beings involved. I want a society where there's opportunity for all. I want a society where no one is left out economically and otherwise.
HARLOW: A 20-year-old John approaches the mayor saying he is homeless. He said he has been living in a shelter since he was 17 years old.
JOHN: I am a homeless youth (INAUDIBLE) I want to know how can you help us? We struggle all the time.
HARLOW: Homelessness in this city has risen under your administration from 50,000, 57,000 people right now. Why?
DE BLASIO: Because of the same tale of two cities I've talked about. The weight of the economic crisis over the last few years has been felt more and more. What we found in the city is while people were becoming economically less stable, losing their jobs or jobs that just didn't pay much more than minimum wage, the cost of housing kept going on. So the basic economics stopped working.
HARLOW: So you need to be more aggressive on the homelessness issues?
DE BLASIO: The last fiscal year we moved 38,000 people out of shelter and into permanent housing. 15,000 of those were based on new initiatives just in the last year that we created. We're going to keep innovating. It's pure economics. Then this is the kind of thing that helps to stop homelessness. More affordable housing in the community. Jobs that pay a better wage. We have to realized the homelessness crisis is related to a bigger economic crisis.
HARLOW: Liberal economist and former labor secretary Robert Reich has been one of the biggest proponent of De Blasio's so-called progressive agenda, a 14-point plan that includes raising the minimum wage to $15 and increasing taxes on the wealthy.
HARLOW: As an economist, how much of a factor is affordable safe housing and elevating people from the bottom up?
ROBERT REICH, FORMER U.S. LABOR SECREATRY: A huge factor. Because increasing percentages of paychecks are going to housing. One of the largest portions of paychecks in history. One of the most difficult trends in America right now which is income segregation. It is not just racial segregation. It is income segregation.
As we are segregating by income we are creating different societies that have almost nothing to do with one another.
DE BLASIO: The whole notion here is to reward work, not wealth and I think that's a notion that actually will have a broad consensus.
HARLOW: Let's talk about fast food workers.
Their fight to make at least $15 an hour.
REICH: $15 is fair and reasonable. It's what we need. Otherwise, we are all paying in our taxes a great deal of money to keep people out of poverty who have full-time work.
HARLOW: I read half of New Yorkers at or near the poverty line right now.
DE BLASIO: 46 percent.
19:45:00
HARLOW: I can't put myself in those shoes. I don't know what it is like to live in that. I never have. But I know what's worse is if you lose that job.
DE BLASIO: Is there a danger in raising the minimum wage? I think there is there is a danger in not raising the minimum wage because what it means is folks are so hand-to-mouth. There's no disposable income. There's no optional purchasing and that holds back the economy as a whole.
Lloyd Blankfein, the head of Goldman Sachs said in an interview that income inequality, growth in income inequality is destabilizing the United States of America.
HARLOW: He also said to me "we have done a better job in this society creating wealth than distributing it." Then he went on to say.
LLOYD BLANKFEIN, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: If you collected revenue from the whole, which means from in a progressive tax system, the wealthier people and not write checks to people but rather invest it in education, housing, those benefits will disproportionately (INAUDIBLE) to the neediest elements of society.
HARLOW: Is he right about that?
DE BLASIO: He's right if he says if we don't figure out a different way to use wealth, we can't invest in our society, we can't create opportunity. That is true. But at the same time and I believe this in terms of the sense of inclusion that is the American ideal. If people work, they work hard, they work multiple jobs and they can't get ahead. That is discordant with decades and decades of American history.
HARLOW: You're saying then you should be writing checks to them?
DE BLASIO: Not writing checks. Giving them the kind of wages and benefits they deserve.
REICH: It isn't the first recovery in which median household in the United States is doing worse now than at the start of the recovery. So it's not a recovery for most people. And that propels a political change. I mean, people are angry. They feel like the system is rigged against them.
HARLOW: After you unveiled "America, the Progressive Agenda," the "Washington Post" published an op-ed, call "the key obstacle to restoring the middle class. It argued fairness is important. It went on to argue that technological advancement has changed the economy completely. What do you say to those who argue this agenda does not include with what you do to deal with technology that we didn't have 10, 20 years ago.
DE BLASIO: I would never say that technology and globalization are not part of the dynamic we are experiencing. But I think it is wrong to suggest that we have a static economy. The economy keeps moving in new directions, right? We have a lot more service jobs and retail jobs than we used to have.
We have seen the absence of government intervention has caused the plummeting of wages and benefits. Our natural response would be government should put the foot on the pedal and bring those back up again.
REICH: As the middleclass shrinks, it is harder for the poor to move into the middleclass because there are fewer places in the middleclass. We need to have an expanding middleclass.
HARLOW: What happens if we don't?
REICH: I think that the current direction we're in, economically and also politically, in terms of big money in politics, is unsustainable. We cannot have an economy that is good for even the rich if it's not growing.
DE BLASIO: You're talking about a situation where people will no longer feel invested in our country and its promise if they don't see some possibility getting ahead. The anger out there is based on fact. It's based on what people is actually experiencing. They can feel their possibility slipping away. That's not the America they signed up for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: De Blasio also noted in our interview, you know, the 400 families that contributed nearly half of the money to the 2016 election telling me he wants to see a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. I asked him if that's too idealistic. He argued public opinion polling shows - he says there is a growing consensus across partisan divides in this country. He thinks it's possible.
I want to know what you think. Tweet me @poppyharlowcnn and let me know your thoughts. We will be right back.
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19:57:01
HARLOW: We thought we would end this hour with a little treat for you courtesy of the one and only Ben Ferguson. We set our political commentator on the loose at the Texas State Fair in Dallas. And what we got is very interesting mix of fried food, some games, and the race for the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN FERGUSON: We're here with big Tex, the big state fair of Texas. It is time to talk a little politics and fried food.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like a president with really some spiz and whiz. Carly's got it.
FERGUSON: So if you could have a beer with any candidate at the fair and buy somebody a corn dog, who would it be?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Bush.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) carrot, raisins, more carrots, egg beaters, panko, graham crackers, cinnamon, nutmeg and then deep fried.
FERGUSON: You guys won the best tasting state fair product period, the holy moly carrot cake roli. So here's my big question, which on has better taste, that or Donald Trump's hair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hands down, carrot rake roli. We're not even going to go there. What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, even Donald wouldn't have anything bad to say about that.
FERGUSON: So we know (INAUDIBLE) about politics or eating fried food, what are they going to say about the winner of the most creative in the fair? The smoky bacon margarita. (INAUDIBLE) drinking one of these.
Who do you think is the most creative politician running for president this time?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Bernie.
FERGUSON: How come Bernie?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: He just speaks his mind. He's honest without offending the world.
FERGUSON: What would you ask Hillary Clinton over a smoky bacon margarita?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would probably text her.
FERGUSON: Ask her about her e-mails?
FERGUSON: We have done food, we've done drinks. Now it is time to play some games. So let's see which of these candidates people want to get out of the race first.
Who do you want out first?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CArly.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carson.
FERGUSON: All right. Go for it.
FERGUSON: Oh! Is that good or bad news for Carly? She's still standing.
It is time to break some plates at the state fair of Texas and see which candidate fairgoers want to knock out first. Who do you want out of the race?
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Jeb Bush.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Hillary Clinton.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Hillary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of them.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: I go for Hillary.
FERGUSON: On your mark, get set, go! Oh! Carly. He's still standing. There we go.
Joe Biden was the last man standing, and he's not even in the race.
Well, we know some candidates have been knocked out during the games. Let's see which one of these guys will rise to the top.
19:55:00
All right, guys. Are you all ready down there? On your mark, get set, go!
The state fair of physicals.
Sometimes in politics the candidates can get a little squealy. Well, tonight we're going to find out who is going to bring home the bacon. UNIDENTIFED MALE: It's squeleary Rodham Clinton. We have Dr. Ben
Hogson (ph). She is Ms. Carly Pigorino. It is Donald Rump. Come on. You know what to do. Come on, pig, pig. What's going on here?
FERGUSON: And at the finish line, it's Carly Fiorina. What a race.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Ben Ferguson, in the flesh. My favorite three and a half minutes of the night.
FERGUSON: There you go. It's always fun to put a little politics and fried food together. My favorite was we asked one guy, what did you think about Donald Trump getting endorsed by the pope? Because I knew he would get that endorsement.
So you'll never know what you're going to get at the fair. I will say this. Almost everyone we talked to had a serious interest in this presidential race, whether Republican or Democrat. It was probably one of the most intense times I have seen of active people saying who they liked, who they didn't like. We had a lot of fun.
HARLOW: That's good. An engaed electorate. They're only you, my friend, could tie together a smoky bacon margarita and Hillary's e- mail.
FERGUSON: I know. That's talent right there.
HARLOW: Yes, clearly. I got to go. I'm getting the wrap. Ben, that was so much fun. Thank you, my friend.
FERGUSON: Thanks.
HARLOW: "This is Life with Lisa Ling" begins after a quick break. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. I will see you back here tomorrow night. Have a great Saturday evening.
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