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Doctors Without Borders Calls Air Strike on Hospital a War Crime; Showdown for U.S. House Speakership Begins; Hillary Clinton Fired Up Over Benghazi Committee; Is Marco Rubio a Force to Be Reckoned With? Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired October 05, 2015 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[14:30:34] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bodies burning in hospital beds, doctors desperately trying to save their own dying colleagues. And now we know the horror that unfolded inside of this Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan, which was a result of U.S. airstrikes, a bombing campaign that killed 22 people, including children, now being called an accident.
Doctors Without Borders is demanding an independent investigation into what it's calling a war crime, releasing this statement, quote, "The U.S. government's description of the attack keeps changing from collateral damage to a tragic incident to attempting to pass responsibility to the Afghanistan government. The reality is the U.S. dropped those bombs. There can be no justification for this horrible attack."
Hillary Clinton calling the incident regrettable just a short time ago.
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HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: First, I want to say how distressed I am by the hospital. I know Defense Secretary Carter has said that there will be a full, thorough investigation to try to get to the bottom of that, but it's deeply regrettable. It came within the context of the Taliban taking back over a city in the north.
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BALDWIN: Joining me now, I have the John Sifton, Asia policy director for Human Rights Watch; and Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst.
Thank you for joining me.
Bob, to you first.
I know that these bombardments continued after the U.S./Afghan military were notified 30 minutes after they were being attacked. They have to know a hospital is there treating civilian patients. How could this happen? What happened to protocol? BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE & SECURITY ANALYST: Well, my understanding
is that they knew about the hospital and knew it was run by MSF. They know it was off limits. They never would have attacked it on its own. In a fast-moving battle like this, this is very typical in Afghanistan right now. The pilots react quickly. They hit when they're told to hit by the Afghans. The problem is we don't have air observers to stop the attack. I think General Campbell, the commander in Afghanistan, is telling the truth now, that this was not a war crimes on the U.S. forces part but on the part of the Afghans. These Afghan proxies on the ground have always been unreliable in the military. That's what they have.
BALDWIN: So who screwed up?
BAER: I think just the fact is we are forced, since we're so thin in Afghanistan that we don't have enough people to fight a war. You can't carry out air attacks based on Afghan reporting. I worked in that part of the world for years. I never could trust them. They are getting in the small conflicts and civil wars and we're taking sides. We put our troops not only in harm's way, but what do they have to go on except the locals.
John, I want you to react to that before I ask you about these calls for a transparent investigation. React to what bob just said.
JOHN SIFTON, ASIA POLICY DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I find it hard to believe that the U.S. Can't be responsible. Because they do have airborne air control systems. Even if the coordinates were given through intelligence, a lot of those should have gone up. The Pentagon has computer systems for identifying what are off limit and how to do targets. If those coordinates were called in, it should have set off alarm bells. I don't think stretches forces thin on the ground changes that. There's also air control systems at a higher altitude keeping control of all these planes. There's no reason why there shouldn't be systems to prevent this from happening. Things should have been flagged. Archaeological sites, hospitals, orphanages, mosques, they already know about this. I know there's a system in place to prevent this type of thing from happening. The question is now what happened and who is responsible. We can't rule out the U.S. from being responsible at this point. It's too early.
BALDWIN: It's about accountability. Secretary of Defense Ash Carter acknowledged that. Let me stay with you. What does accountability like when you have ten patients killed including three children?
[14:35:14] SIFTON: We have to find out what happened. If there was a legitimate target there, a disproportioned attack, an attack that might have been on a military target, but used a level of force or used a calculation of what was permissible in terms of collateral damage that was not correct. That's a war crime. A disproportionate attack on a military target is a worker. Or they fired too close to something and used force. A method of attacking too strong. We need to find that out. It's very hard to imagine a scenario where this attack comes out justified under international law, which is why such strong language from MSF right now.
BALDWIN: Also MSF wanting that transparent, full independent investigation.
Bob, just quickly on the government side of things, how transparent do you think they will be?
BAER: Probably not very. We're not going to want to identify who gave the coordinates in the Afghan government. It's a huge embarrassment. Addressing those comments, we have been hitting civilian targets for the last 15 years in Afghanistan. It's just the way the war has always been fought. And the computers have never caught up with modern war fair. They are vaunted as taking care of all of this. But we have been hitting civilian targets for a long time.
BALDWIN: Bob Baer, thank you.
John Sifton, we appreciate you as well.
Next, new information just in on when Republicans will decide the next speaker of the House of Representatives. After the front runner made such a gaffe, another Republican sees an opening, he wants in, and the next couple days are expected to get nasty.
Plus, why hire a boy to do a man's job? Donald Trump re-tweeting that question about Marco Rubio. Details, ahead.
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[14:41:26] BALDWIN: New details about the timetable to elect a new speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives. Keep in mind, this person will be two heartbeats away from the presidency. That, in a moment.
Background here, this is a showdown. It's brewing now over who will replace John Boehner. The front runner and presumed heir-apparent, Kevin McCarthy, is getting competition. McCarthy is the current House majority leader. Chaffetz is the chairman who recently led the Planned Parenthood hearings.
CNN's senior political reporter, Manu Raju just interviewed Chaffetz about why he wants to challenge McCarthy.
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MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: What is wrong with the team?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA), HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: There needs to be a fresh start. There are internal processes. I think, the communications war is not going well. We seem to see that at every level. We haven't been taking the fight to the Democrats and the president. That's, in part, what we got elected to do.
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BALDWIN: Let's go straight to CNN's chief political correspondent, Dana Bash, who has some news on this vote on secret ballot Thursday. What's in play here to have this potential shakeup or challenge to the
existing leadership team?
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's start with the timing on what's going to it happen. The only vote now that's going to happen within the Republican conference or caucus, as we probably better know it, on thursday will be for the nominee for speaker of the House. And it's nominee because the speaker is, as you said, two heartbeats away from the presidency. It's a constitutional role, as opposed to the other leadership positions. The House Republicans will nominate somebody and then that person will have to come before the full House of Representatives for a vote. Everybody gets a vote. Democrats, Republicans, Independents, every sitting member gets a vote.
That's going to happen on October 29th. That's the date that the current House speaker just set. What he did by setting that is this is going to be the time for after that happens whomever the new speaker is going to be able to set leadership elections for the House majority leader, the House whip and other. Those will not happen this Thursday. We are just going to see a vote on the nominee for the House speaker.
And to answer your question on why this is happening, really the same reason why John Boehner decided to leave in the first place. Because of the unrest among many in the House Republican conference who just are sort of sick of the current leadership and Kevin McCarthy, who certainly is the front runner to be the new speaker, represents the current leadership. He would just be bumped up from House majority leader to speaker. That's why you see Jason Chaffetz trying to take the role and the mantle of those angry conservatives. Unclear how far he's going to get, but he's trying.
BALDWIN: Tell us more about Jason Chaffetz. Kevin McCarthy, heir- apparent, made remarks last week about the Benghazi hearings and politics and Hillary Clinton. So you have that here looming. And Jason Chaffetz has been in the news lately, as well. Tell us more about it.
BASH: You just heard an interesting phrase in that interview talking about the fact that there's a communication problem. That is definitely what we're hearing one of the major selling points that he is making behind the scenes to the rank and file to support him. He is a fixture on television on cable news and elsewhere. He's been since he got to office. He's even newer in the House than Kevin McCarthy. He's only been there for a few terms and was even a fixture before he took the gavel to the important oversight committee. He's trying to make the point. That he can stand up and articulate the positions and the passions of Republicans better than others meaning Kevin McCarthy. The thing to keep in mind is the vote on Thursday in the Republican conference. Whoever wins, they are going to have to have a full vote on the House floor. Jason Chaffetz doesn't think McCarthy can get 218. I got off the phone with someone close to McCarthy who says they think he can.
[14:45:52] BALDWIN: 218 is the magic number. We'll watch for the big vote at the end of the month.
Dana Bash, thank you very much.
BASH: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Coming up next, Hillary Clinton fired up today. Fired up on the campaign trail. Hear the interview question that sparked her response in New Hampshire.
This is CNN.
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[14:50:35] BALDWIN: Strong words today from Hillary Clinton. Some of her most forceful language yet when she was asked about the Republican-led committee that's investigating the deadly attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi. Hillary Clinton took part in a New Hampshire town hall on this morning's "Today" show. She unveiled a new gun control proposal when she became angry when asked about Benghazi.
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HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Look at the situation they chose to exploit to go after me for political reasons, the death of four Americans in Benghazi. I knew the ambassador. I identified him. I asked him to go there. I asked the president to nominate him. There have been seven investigations, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress, and they were nonpartisan, and they were they reached conclusions that nobody did anything wrong. This committee was set up, as they have admitted, for the purpose of making a political issue out of the deaths of four Americans. I would have never done that. If I were president, and there were Republicans or Democrats who were thinking about that, I would have done everything to shut it down.
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BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton making indirect reference to last week's comments by Kevin McCarthy, now running with Dana Bash for House speaker, who talked about how the committee's work has knocked down Clinton's poll numbers.
Let me bring in CNN political commentators, Van Jones and Margaret Hoover,
Good to see both of you.
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BALDWIN: Van Jones, to you.
On Hillary Clinton this morning, forceful, passionate, is this the woman that people have been waiting for?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, yes. Yeah, it's about time. I think she's been a little bit timid and thrown off her game. She thought the e-mail stuff was so lightweight it would go away. When that stuck to her shoe, she started stumbling around. I think she's now back. The definition of a gaffe in politics is when you accidentally say the truth. When it happened, McCarthy told the truth. It has been partisan. She's fighting back and should fight back.
BALDWIN: You want to jump in?
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I don't think it's totally fair to say it's partisan. If it were just a partisan witch hunt, Elijah Cummings wouldn't have agreed to go along with it to ensure it doesn't become a witch hunt. The guy running, Trey Gowdy, was a U.S. attorney. He's a very serious guy. And serious things have come from this investigation. They have found e-mails that Hillary Clinton didn't disclose, that some of her colleagues and associates had disclosed. There are real questions we should know about.
JONES: You were kind enough to mention Elijah Cummings. He said I will go along with this. He's now outraged. All five Democrats on the committee have broken away.
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HOOVER: We all understand political theater. Kevin McCarthy stepped in it last week. We know he stepped in it. He said this is a political witch hunt. This is political theater at the courtesy of a Republican error.
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BALDWIN: Will it help Hillary Clinton?
JONES: He's helped Hillary Clinton. But I want to say this committee did start off with confidence in Gowdy, but they started leaking collectively. This has become a side show. Thankfully, you're right, McCarthy called it what it is. Now Hillary Clinton gets to come out of that defensive crouch and defend herself. She should. It is disgusting to politicize something like this.
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BALDWIN: I want to hold you guys over a break.
When we come back, we have to talk about little boys and men, according to Donald Trump. Thoughts on what's happening with the Republican race.
JONES: Oh.
BALDWIN: And could we see George W. Bush, out and about in South Carolina for his brother? Stay with me. These two, don't move a muscle.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:58:23] BALDWIN: We're back with Van Jones and Margaret Hoover on set.
Thank you for hanging around.
Let's talk about Republicans and Donald Trump.
So throw this up on the full screen, guys, and we'll show everyone what he retweeted yesterday.
It's a graphic showing a young Marco Rubio here that reads, "Never hire a boy to do a man's job." Let me just add to that.
Van, I'm coming to you first.
We also heard Jeb Bush taking shots, naming Marco Rubio. Does that tell you that Marco Rubio is a force to be reckoned with?
JONES: Absolutely, first of all, incredibly insulting to call him a boy. I don't want to go into the overtones of that, but we all know there's some racial overtones. Whenever you call a man of color a boy, it just hits -- it hurts to hear it. First of all, that's just should be off limits. I think it shows Rubio is a force to be reckoned with. This is a guy that everybody thought was doing a trial run going out for vice president. He's destroying Bush in the polls and closing in on Trump and looks great every time he talks. I think they are worried about him. Both of them are ganging up on him. It elevates him. That's wrong.
HOOVER: I never defend Donald Trump. I will tell you that clearly he didn't mean the racial thing. What he really meant is Marco Rubio is 44 years old and I'm like almost 70 or 65, so I have the experience to be president.
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HOOVER: But he could have said that. What Donald Trump is good at is going exactly for any candidate or opponent of his Achilles' heel. And this is frankly one of the challenges that Marco has.
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HOOVER: He is 44 years old and --
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JONES: And he looks young.
