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Shooting Spree Leaves Israeli Soldier, Innocent Bystander Dead; Migrant Crisis; Interview with Richard Branson. Aired 3-4p ET.

Aired October 19, 2015 - 15:00   ET



MICHAEL HOLMES, HOST: Hello everyone. Tonight tough questions after a shocking attack.


A shooting spree leaves an Israeli soldier and an innocent bystander dead. We're live in Jerusalem with the latest.

Also migrants (inaudible) thousands of desperate people stuck in transit as borders close and cold weather closes in.

And we speak to billionaire businessman Sir Richard Branson. Why he's calling for drug possession to be decriminalized.


HOLMES: Hello everyone, I'm Michael Holmes, live from CNN Center, and this is The World Right Now.


HOLMES: Thanks for your company everyone. Israeli police investigating the viscous beating of an Eritrean migrant who was mistaken for a gunman during

a bus station attack.


HOLMES: Police say an Arab citizen of Israel opened fire at the station in Beersheba on Sunday killing a soldier. That gunman in turn was shot dead

but a guard also shot the Eritrean migrant believing he was involved. A crowd began beating the migrant as he lay on the ground. He later died of

his wounds.


HOLMES: Let's get to Oren Liebermann now in Jerusalem for details. Oren, this video disturbing on many levels. Walk us through the attack and the

video that's emerged.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely two terrible perhaps even shocking incidents unfolding within moments of each other. The

attack and then beating of an innocent bystander.


LIEBERMANN: Police say this all started when an Arab Bedouin in the Southern Israeli city Beersheba, a city that up until now had been

insulated from the violence and attacks. Police say this Arab Bedouin went into the central bus station and shot at point blank range an Israeli


Police say the attacker then took the m-16 rifle of that soldier, went into the bus station and opened fire sending nearly a dozen people to the

hospital. Before security officers there shot and killed the attacker. But the story doesn't end there. And I have to warn you the video we're about

to show you is quite graphic.

Police say a nearby security guard mistook an innocent bystander, an African migrant from Eretria for a second attacker and shot that innocent



LIEBERMANN: We then see in this video a crowd gathering around the Eritrean migrant on the ground kicking him, beating him, shouting at him, attacking



LIEBERMANN: Police say that migrant then later died at the hospital. Now police say they're looking into who was in this crowd seeing if they can

identify anybody in the security video. They see this in a very harsh light. The attacking of this Eritrean migrant when he was already on the



LIEBERMANN: But police say still under examination they haven't identified anyone in that video. So Michael two terrible events there unfolding within

moments of each other.

HOLMES: A couple of things. First of all, this attack is different in a couple of ways. As you pointed out it's outside the area where we have seen

most attacks and also the attacker taking and using a soldier's weapon and crucially he did appear to know how to use it. What's the level of concern

that more let's say organized cells might be joining in the spontaneous knife attacks.

LIEBERMANN: The fear and that security concern is certainly there. Most of what we've seen until now has been knife attacks. There have been a few gun

attacks but it has been knife attacks with the impression that these are a sort of lone wolf attacks uncoordinated, unplanned, very unpredictable and

very difficult to stop. And that's been the difficulty of Israeli security forces. Hamas and other groups have praised these attacks but very rarely

in these cases taken responsibility for any of them. It will be interesting to see if that changes, if they try to organize coordinated attacks. That

concern is there for the Israeli government but were not seeing that at least not yet happening regularly right now.

HOLMES: And before I let you go, going back to that video, and it is extremely distressing to watch, but what it shows is that man crawling away

on his hands and knees while others are fleeing as well and the critics are saying it does seem like a shoot first kind of situation. Is there any

suggestion why he would have thought to have been involved?

LIEBERMANN: So I just spoke to Israel police spokesperson Micky Rosenfeld about this and what exactly happens to try to get a better sense of the

chaos of the moment and Israeli police say there certainly was chaos. You could see it in a couple of other videos.

But what happens is Israeli police say the security guard believed that man, that innocent bystander to be an attacker because they say as everyone

ran out of the central bus station, this man ran in. They say in the heat of the moment the security guard shot that man in the leg. The innocent

bystander, the Eritrean migrant, and that's when the crowd surrounds him, kicks him, and beats him. As of right now that security guard, not under

investigation for his actions in that moment.


HOLMES: Certainly a lot of unanswered questions. Oren Liebermann, there in Jerusalem. Thanks.

Well, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warning civilians not to take the law into their own hands. Here's what he had to say about

vigilante attacks.


BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: (As translated) We are in a continued struggle. I think it is clear that we will win it. But this thing

sometimes creates frictions between citizens and the locations of attacks. Citizens who are attacked act in a manner that makes us proud. A crowd who

finds himself at the site should evacuate the area and let the emergency services do their job. We have a country of law. No one will take the law

into their own hands.

HOLMES: Well after repeated stabbings and other attacks by Palestinian assailants Israeli officials have been urging officials who legally own a

gun to carry it gun saying in their words they have a "part to play" in helping keep the streets safe. Human rights groups in Israel accuse the

government though - government of sanctioning extra judicial killings.


HOLMES: Well desperate, cold and in limbo thousands of migrants and refugees stranded as border controls tighten in Europe.


HOLMES: Hungary closing natural borders on Friday forcing people trying to leave Serbia to head instead through Croatia. Now Slovenia says it wants to

limit its intake of migrants. It says Croatia is ignoring that plan by continuing to bus people north. The concern of closures further up the

chain of course is that it causes a bottleneck as far back as Serbia.

And you can see the worsening conditions that people are facing. Just have a look at that video there. The UNHCR says babies and the elderly sitting

in mud, they need very basic things like blankets, coats, food, some sort of shelter.


HOLMES: Well Croatia and Slovenia are not typically final destinations. Most of the migrants as we know are trying to head to places like Germany.


HOLMES: That country expects a million asylum applications this year. Some Germans though beginning to think the influx is too much. Senior

international correspondent Atika Shubert, is in Dresden tonight at an anti-immigration rally and that sentiment does certainly seem to be

growing. What have you been hearing there?


ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know the (inaudible) anti-immigration move that started about a year ago was in

full as that they have consistently drawn crowds of thousands every Monday night in Dresden now for a year.


SHUBERT: This is probably the largest crowd we've seen in a while. More than 10,000 (inaudible) protesters here up to 50,000 according to police

estimates. Very disciplined crowd. They've actually moved them forward here to keep them away from a counter rally that's just on the other side.

Several thousand there.

Now the side that we're seeing are the sort of side that say refugees not welcome. Also I saw signs that says Islamists not welcome here in Germany.

It is a movement that's clearly targeting the refugee policy of Chancellor Angela Merkel saying that it's enough. There are too many refugees in

Germany and they want the door to be closed.

On the other hand and this just goes to show the split in public opinion. The counter rally which is several thousand people on the other side, he's

saying refugees are welcome, and that it is (inaudible) that should be out. And it really just goes to show the divide here in public opinion, Michael.

HOLMES: Atika Shubert there in Dresden, a very noisy rally going on.


HOLMES: And of course this follows the knife attack in Cologne by a right wing individual the other day mayoral candidate who fortunately has

survived that attack. Atika, thanks so much, appreciate that.

Still to come tonight.


HOLMES: As Russia launches more air strikes in Syria and Syrian forces advance thousands of civilians fleeing the onslaught. We'll be right back.

A little bit later too we're going to be speaking live to tycoon Sir Richard Branson speaking out on the issue of drug decriminalization. Stay

with us.






HOLMES: Welcome back everyone. Russia says it has bombed dozens of ISIS targets across Syria in the last 24 hours.

The Russian defense ministry announcing Monday 49 ISIS facilities including training camps and weapons depots destroyed in air strikes. (inaudible)

Moscow's bombardment intensifies civilians paying a high price as always. Nick Payton Walsh reports.


NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A new force brings horror to Aleppo's southern countryside. These rare amateur pictures

of possibly Russian air strikes and the unnatural noise and shelter of civilians, children fleeing this, the regime's latest advance.

Mattresses give warmth and rest from exhaustion and too a sense of false safety from the jets above. A family bedroom picked up and dumped in this

open farm land. Aid agencies estimate possibly tens of thousands on the move from this swathe of poor farmland that reportedly Iranian Hezbollah

and regime troops are moving through en route to Syria's largest city, Aleppo.

These Syria's most plagued fleeing to Europe. Even next door Turkey is not an option for them, just from their town to the fields nearby. The elements

now, their hunter too. Winter is coming. This woman just fled her home and now worries her daughter's pajamas got her through summer but not the ice

of winter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (As translated) In the cold days the cold kills us. In the summer days the sun will burn our faces.

WALSH: Here a tractors home for now. We're going to go to the mountains he says to see anything that can be a cave or something as a settlement for

us. This is the beginning of a new chapter of injury and displacement.

The supposed target of the regime offensive is here, Aleppo. It's rebel areas ground to dust when we saw them a year ago; yet still, lives thrown

out into the open as that onslaught begins.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Southern Turkey.


HOLMES: To U.S. politics. And last week's debate did little to affect Hillary Clinton's strong lead in the race for the democratic nomination for

U.S. President.

A new CNN ORC poll has found that the former U.S. Secretary of State's popularity stands at 45%.



HOLMES: Her closest rival Senator Bernie Sanders has support from 29% of those polled,

that is five points higher than a month ago. Most people felt Clinton had performed best during last week's debate but they didn't move her numbers

all that much.


HOLMES: In the United Kingdom a suspected serial killer accused of murdering four men appeared in court on Monday. Authorities say he used a

dating website to lure the victims to his home before killing them. ITN's Richard Pallot is following the story.


RICHARD PALLOT, ITN CORRESPODNENT: This is the 40-year-old man alleged to have drugged four men in their 20s and killed them all.

Under tight security Steven Port was driven into court this morning inside and looking somewhat different the prosecution outlined to him the crimes

they say he carried out over a 15-month period. He is accused of inviting each separately back to his flat in Barking in Essex having met all of them

on a gay dating website.

Inside he allegedly gave them enough of the party drug GHB to render them unconscious.

Anthony Wallgate was pronounced dead on Cook Street in June of last year. Nearly two months later the body of Gabriel Kavari was found near St.

Margaret's Churchyard, the same location where the body of Daniel Whitworth would be discovered three weeks later. A fourth man, Jack Taylor was found

dead near the abbey ruins just over a month ago. All the locations are less than five minutes' walk from the defendant's home address.

Despite three of the victims being found in and around the same cemetery police had originally considered them to be the result of accidental

overdoses; until last week when they launched a murder investigation.


PALLOT: Throughout the brief hearing the accused repeatedly tapped his foot and looked down at the floor. He entered no plea and will appear next at

the Old Bailey on Wednesday.

Richard Pallot, ITV news, at Barking Side Magistrate's Court in Essex.

HOLMES: Stay with us. Coming up on the program.


HOLMES: We're going to be speaking to Sir Richard Branson who has weighed in on the issue of global drug decriminalization. That's just after the







HOLMES: Welcome back. Now you may know the Virgin founder Richard Branson a successful entrepreneur and he's certainly that. But he is now weighing in

on a very different issue. He says the U.N. had plans to urge governments to decriminalize drugs.


Well reacting to this Mr. Branson said I for years argued that we should treat drug use as a health issue, not a crime. While the vast majority of

recreational drug users never experience any problems people who struggle with drug addiction deserve access to treatment not a prison cell.


Sir Richard Branson joins me now live from Necker Island in the British Virgin Islands. Sir Richard, great to have you on the program, it's now

looking more and more like that U.N. paper might go nowhere. What's your reaction to that and what's your message on this issue?

SIR RICHARD BRANSON, VIRGIN FOUNDER: Well, I'm part of something called the Global Drug Commission and we spent five years examining the last 60

year war on drugs. And the whole commission with one voice believe it's been an abject failure and when we read the U.N's report this weekend,

again with one voice we welcomed this report. It said that the millions of arrests that have taken place over the last six years have been

unnecessary, that criminalizing people was harmful and unnecessary and that drugs should be treated as a health problem, not a criminal problem.

And we were ready to celebrate today when for some reason or another somebody managed to stop the report being published. And - but you know I

think now the gene is out of the bottle. We know that the - you know the main organization at the U.N. that oversees the criminalization of people

over the world, they believe it is wrong. And now I think it's up to people like the Global Drug Commission to try to persuade governments throughout

the world to change their policies.

HOLMES: You know it's interesting, you're far from the first person to say that the war on drugs has been a failure. Why do you think those who say

that are not being heard by governments?

BRANSON: It's very sad. I mean I think some governments are hearing it. And the governments that are hearing it and doing something about it are

actually getting on top of the drug problem. So there are countries in Europe that had big drug problems, ten years ago for instance Portugal

decided that anybody who had a drug problem, instead of criminalizing them they should come forward and get help and they've reduced the amount of

people for instance taking heroin. They had a big heroin problem by something like 90% because those people came forward and the state helped

them and they got them back you know got them back on the right path in life and they're now useful members of society again.

So countries that are embracing this approach are finding its succeeding. Other countries like America have still got hundreds of thousands of people

in prison for taking drugs and there are I mean there are hopeful signs that there's a beginning to shift but it's taken an awful long time.

HOLMES: You know it's actually becoming an election issue in the U.S. in terms of what you mention there about incarceration incarcerations. The

U.S. of course imprisons more people than any one the world, and many of those are for non-violent drug offences. What is the impact of all those

people being locked up for those non-violent, some would say minor drug crimes?

BRANSON: Oh the - I mean the impact on society is enormous particularly because a lot of those people are black people, they're not white people.

So it's almost like a racial - a racial law that's in place.

You know people who drink alcohol in excess are helped. People who smoke too many cigarettes are helped. But young people who take drugs are not

helped. You know they can get criminal records. You know -- and it's a spiraling downward situation. You know once you've got a criminal record,

you have difficulty getting a job and so on.


BRANSON: So you know we will keep - we'll keep badgering on until we get - we get these things changed and you know the best way - the best way I find

to put it is to say you know would you want your brother or sister, your children locked up or would you want them helped. And with one voice, every

politician says we would want them helped. If they really believe that they should just push you know push the laws through that are necessary to help

people and that will help society as well.

HOLMES: Of course, the critics will say that you know well, drugs do an awful lot of damage not just to health but to society as well. That they

can be gateways -- all the rest of it. You've heard all the arguments. What do you say to reassure people that -- who would say that decriminalizing

drug use on a personal level --

BRANSON: (Inaudible) in case you're hearing me and I can't hear you.

HOLMES: You can't hear me? Can you hear me?

BRANSON: Oh, I can hear you now. You've come back. Sorry.

HOLMES: Oh excellent. All right, I was just saying that you know let's be devil's advocate here and a lot of people will say that drug use is a

slippery slope and if you decriminalize it you're going to be enable - enabling people under that slippery slope. Your reaction to that?

BRANSON: Well, it's not - it's not the case where it has been decriminalized. You know so in Europe, you know, where you know Germany or

Switzerland or P, you know treat drugs as a health problem, it hasn't resulted in lots more people taking drugs. In fact, the reverse.

And so if it can work in some countries we believe it can work in every country. And you know I mean if you take cigarettes as an example. We all

know cigarettes are dangerous but society is working in clever ways to try to reduce the amount of people who are taking -- smoking cigarettes and

they're succeeding. And I think society can do the same - the same with drugs. I mean if people want to get drugs today they can get them on pretty

well any corner in America or anywhere in the world. You know, the best way is to -- you know, those people who do have drug issues to help them and

help wean them off if they have a problem.

HOLMES: And I want to - because I've got you I'm going to be cheeky and get you on another issue and something that I know you're concerned about and

that is the migrant issue in Europe. When you see the right wing parties in Germany making objections; we saw the (inaudible) candidate in Cologne

stabbed by somebody who disagreed with Germany's immigration policies and the open arms that have been demonstrated. What is your reaction to that

and is Europe doing enough?

BRANSON: I think that -- I mean I had tears in my eyes when I saw how generous Germany has been to migrants. I mean it's you know - I mean I'm

old enough to remember you know my parents talking about the second world war when I was a young man and you know, they have gone out of their way to

be welcoming, helpful and I think we should salute them for it. And I do believe that other countries throughout the world should follow suit.

I mean I've just come back from Detroit, the Mayor of Detroit feels he could take hundreds of thousands of migrants.


BRANSON: He's got many, many, many, empty homes but he's got to get the government of America to let him do so. And so I think it doesn't have to

all be on you know on Germany's door step. It should be spread around the world.


HOLMES: Sir Richard Branson, a pleasure to speak with you, thank you so much for joining us.

BRANSON: Thank you. Sorry we lost you briefly.

HOLMES: It was fine, we got it back, all is well. Thank you, Sir Richard.

BRANSON: Thank you.

HOLMES: All right, coming up here on the program.


HOLMES: As thousands of people trudge through mud and rain as we have just been discussing there with Sir Richard Branson, I'm also going to speak to

a U.N official who calls the conditions on Europe's borders hellish.

And outrage grows in India after several horrendous rape cases in the capital Delhi. Stay with us we'll be right back.






HOLMES: Welcome back everyone. Israeli police say the gunman behind a bus station attack in Beersheba was an Arab citizen of Israel.


HOLMES: They say he killed a soldier and then went on to wound ten other people. The attacker shot dead. But also, a security guard in the bus

station fired on a Eritrean migrant believing he was involved. The impact had nothing to do with it. A mob then beat that migrant who later died of

his wounds.


HOLMES: Thousands of migrants are stranded in the cold literally as European governments tighten border controls.


HOLMES: Refugees being held up at Croatia's borders with Serbia and Slovenia.


HOLMES: And China's President has arrived in the U.K. for a three day state visit.


HOLMES: Xi Jinping and his wife touching down in London a short time ago. As you can see there.

Now this is the first time a Chinese leader has made an official visit to the U.K. In ten years. Mr. Xi will meet with the royal family and hold bi-

lateral talks with Prime Minister David Cameron.


HOLMES: Voting underway in Canada where Liberals could soon unseat the country's Conservative Prime Minister for the first time in nearly a



HOLMES: Pre-election polls show Steven Harper's Tories are trailing Justin Trudeau's Liberals. But there is potential for a three party split with the

leftist New Democrats also expected to do well.



HOLMES: Now imagine being stranded in a cold, wet no-man's land.


HOLMES: That is the reality for thousands of refugees and migrants trying to make their way through the Balkans. Entire families forced to sit

outside in the mud with little shelter. They eventually want to gain asylum in northern European countries. For now though, many having to build open

fires for warmth and huddle together in blankets as winter approaches.


HOLMES: Now it is not a stretch to call those scenes hellish. And that's exactly how my next guest describes the Serbia/Croatia border crossing

where she has been today. Melita Sunjic from the U.N. Refugee Agency traveled to Belgrade - traveled back to Belgrade now joins us live to talk

about it.


I mean it just looks so miserable out there in that weather and no shelter and no warmth and precious little food. What did you see, your impressions?


MELITA SUNJIC, U.N. REFUGEE AGENCY: Well, it was really a dramatic day in my long history as a humanitarian. I've rarely seen such a dramatic


As of yesterday afternoon, the buildup started. This used to be a transit zone where people would just cross into Croatia, they would stay there for

half an hour and then cross into Croatia. And yesterday afternoon they closed - Croatia closed its border but people were still coming so the

buildup started and we had 2,500 people at a certain time. It was raining all the time, incessantly. It's muddy, it's in the middle of nowhere. It's

between fields. It's an irregular crossing point. Not a normal border checkpoint. Not lit at all during the night. Cold and the - we as

humanitarian organizations, UNHCR and all the NGO's that were there were surprised by these developments. So we handed out blankets and food and

water and rain coats but we didn't have enough for such a sudden influx of so many people.

HOLMES: And the problem - the problem is that --

SUNJIC: Actually at 5:00 o'clock in the afternoon Croatia opened the border and let the people through.

HOLMES: You know the problem here is that there seems to be no system in place. One country closes its border and then you get this backlog and that

really become as chain reaction because the number of people coming in isn't changing. I think even you said it's like a river of people if you

stop the flow, you will have flooding elsewhere.

SUNJIC: Exactly. That's what's happening now. And this is what UNHCR has been criticizing for a long time. This is an international problem and it

cannot be resolved by one country or another by opening one border or closing one border. We need to have a holistic approach. And the EU has

been discussing and discussing and there are some plans but we need to see action with winter approaching.

HOLMES: You mentioned winter. And we continue to look at this video here. It is absolutely pouring down with rain. And you know, children out in that

weather. What's going to happen in the months ahead as winter does come in? One imagines the refugees will keep coming.

SUNJIC: Well, there's several possible scenarios that the flow will decrease because there is a sea passage involved between Turkey and Greece

and the sea is rough during winter months. But what we have seen also when the flow -- when a country tried to stop the flow in one route then another

route develops so we might see that as well and we have to be prepared for all scenarios.

What we are saying is the need to be reception centers in Greece where people can be received under dignified circumstances and from there they

should be distributed all over the European Union in a regular manner. So that we spare them this trip through rain and mud and cold.

HOLMES: Yes, just terrible isn't it? Melita Sunjic of UNHCR, thanks so much.


HOLMES: This is The World Right Now.


HOLMES: Indians have taken to the streets to protest after a series of rape cases. Ahead I'm going to speak with a documentary filmmaker who has taken

up this issue. We'll be right back.






HOLMES: And welcome back. In India there are calls for justice and urgent government action after a series of highly disturbing rapes in the capital.

CNN's Mallika Kapoor explains the victims this time, very young children.


MALLIKA KAPOOR, CNN INTERANTIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Shock and anger in New Delhi once again. Fear that women and girls are not safe.

On Friday a 2-year-old was allegedly abducted, raped and later dumped in a park by two teenage boys. That was on the same day a 5-year-old girl was

raped in the eastern part of the city.

In a separate incident a 4-year-old was sexually violated too on October 9th. That's three children raped within one week in India's capital.

Delhi's police force moved quickly. They say they've arrested all the suspects in connection with these rapes. The father of the 2-year-old wants


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (As translated) It is good that police have arrested the accused but I want them here before the public. They should fulfill the

promise made to us. I don't want to say anything more.

KAPOOR: Delhi's Chief Minister had plenty to say. He's demanding that he be given control of Delhi's police force which currently reports to Prime

Minister Narendra Modi.

ARVIND KEJRIWAL, CHIEF MINISTER OF DELHI: (As translated) There is no police rule. Only jungles rule since Narendra Modi's government came to

power. If you have no time you should give up your stubbornness and hand over Delhi police for a year to us. If we are unable to reach law and order

in a year then take back the control of Delhi police.

KAPOOR: But Modi's government maintains the safety of women and girls is priority and that police have been effective. While the political tussle

escalates so do the numbers. According to national crime statistics the number of rapes in the country rose by 11% in 2014. New Delhi reported the

highest number. On one hand this is because more women are now reporting cases of violence against them yet there are many who remain silent.

Many victims or their family members don't report crime such as rape because they fear their families and communities will shun them. Three

children were raped in Delhi last week. The reality is there could have been many more.

Mallika Kapoor, CNN, Mumbai.


HOLMES: And we're joined now from CNN New York by Leslie Udwin who directed a documentary on the topic of rape in India. It was called India's

daughter. Great to have you on the program. What a terrible topic to be discussing.

We have seen this issue though rear its head before. In this case though we're talking about little children. I mean just how bad has the situation

become, particularly in Delhi.

LESLIE UDWIN, DIRECTOR "INDIA'S DAUGHTER: Well the situation is appalling Michael but it's not just in Delhi.


UDWIN: We have to admit that pedophilia, rape of young children is rife and an epidemic the world over. And we must not for one moment think that we

are immune from this disease. It is of course, utterly, utterly disheartening to hear of this news but it is constant. And you know every

time one case or two cases are suddenly reported, it's quite rare there is a mountain of cases that go completely unreported and unremarked on.

HOLMES: And in fact to that very point, the Hindu newspaper today said "abduction and sexual victimization are the urban realities of the

capital." And as you point out elsewhere as well. But goes on to say "which constantly haunt every parent."

I'm curious in your looking at this issue is there an underlying in some areas, an underlying cultural issue that needs to be dealt with here, that

the sexual assaults keep happening?

UDWIN: Yes, there is definitely a cultural -- global cultural issue and I call it patriarchy. I call it gender inequality. I interviewed as part of

my inquiry into the film I made, this journey, I interviewed a young man of 34 who had raped a 5-year-old girl.

And I interviewed him over three hours. He described in minute detail everything he did to this child and towards the end of the interview I said

to him, please I beg you, help me to understand how it is that you couldn't cross the line between wanting to do something like this and ruin a young

baby's life, a baby girl's life when you've described to me how wide her eyes were with terror, you've described to me how you had your hand over

her mouth to stifle her screams. You've even shown me how tall she was and she reached to your knees. How could you cross the line?

And here is word for word Michael what he said to me. And we should hear this message loud and clear. He said, looking at me as though I was from a

distant planet for even asking the question, he said, "she was a beggar girl, her life was of no value." I have it on film. It all comes down to

that. If we are called no value to the girl child, well of course, men are going to go and rape her. If we have a system, a culture in which we teach

and program these men to think this way of women, we may as well simply give them a rapist's manual when they hit puberty.

HOLMES: That is just a sickening story to hear. You know when I think back, there was so much outrage and we covered it here as well after the 2012

gang rape on the bus. It was the subject of your documentary. So much was promised by authorities. There was so much anger on the street. What

happened to that rage and those promises?

UDWIN: Well, I suppose rage cannot go on and it's actually a miracle and awe inspiring and immensely admirable of the ordinary men and women in

India who took to the streets.


UDWIN: That they went on with such tenacity and courage for over a month. It's miraculous. No other country in the world has ever done this. And from

that point of view India actually led the world by example. But you can't sustain that degree of passion. And it's very heartening to see people

coming out on the streets again now for these young children. This 2 1/2- year-old. The 4-year-old who had to have a colostomy bag fitted because she was ripped apart from vagina to anus, and has died as a result.

HOLMES: You know the other thing, too, is there's just so -- -- you know there's so many -- rapes are a massive problem all around the world of

course as you've said. But I think 37,000 rapes in 2014. One of the problems is it can take two, three, sometimes more years for the cases when

they are brought to get to trial. So there's a problem with the system as well.


UDWIN: Michael, I'm so sorry. I didn't hear you question. Would you repeat it please?

HOLMES: I was just going to say there are tens of thousands of rapes and it is a worldwide problem. But we're talking about India and one of the - one

of the amazing things that I read is that it can take sometimes two, three or more years to even get to trial. That's a systemic problem, it's a

problem with the system.

UDWIN: It is indeed and it's further evidence of how little meaningful focus and care there is for these cases.


UDWIN: If you look at the (inaudible) case, India's Daughter, Jyoti Singh, you will find that it will have taken six years for this case to reach its

conclusion. Because the court of last resort, the Supreme Court has not pronounced and we are told it's going to be at least another two years and

this one Michael was the fast track case. So there is a massive systemic failure in the Indian legal system, no question.

HOLMES: Just such a horrible issue but one that needs to be heard. Leslie Udwin, director of a film on rape in India called "India's Daughter."

Leslie, thanks so much for being with us.

UDWIN: Thank you so much. We are releasing the film now theoretically in the U.S. and audiences can catch it in New York and L.A. and they really

must. It's a transforming film and such a powerful tool for change. I beg people to seek this film out.

HOLMES: Such an important issue. Leslie thanks.

UDWIN: Thank you.

HOLMES: And we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.




HOLMES: What a wonderful and enthralling weekend if you're a rugby fan. The World Cup of course. It was thrilling if you live south of the equator

though. All four southern hemisphere teams beat their northern counter parts.


HOLMES: One of them though, Australia had a bit of a lucky escape. They did defeat Scotland by a single point and it's the referee, not the players

making the headlines. CNN World Sports, Don Riddell joins me here now in the studio.

You know speaking as an Australian, I say there was absolutely nothing wrong with the call. You have some Scottish blood. You and the British

press would beg to differ, and it was controversial. It was.

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORTS: It was certainly controversial. Actually it was quite a controversial match. It was absolutely thrilling, very

entertaining for the neutral spectacular occasion. But there were a few debatable calls and the Scotts will certainly argue that had things been

different they could easily have won this game and been in the semifinal.

But the main complaint is this, a line out in the final minute. The ball -- it's not quite clear for sure if it came off a Scottish or Australian

player but it ended up with a penalty being awarded to the Australians and with that in the final few seconds they were able to win the match.

HOLMES: For non-rugby fans what's the call?

RIDDELL: Well it's very, very difficult fan to explain to non-rugby fans. But I mean you've got a player called John Welsh from Scotland who caught

the ball in an off side position. The debate really is whether it should have been a scrum or a kick and you could argue it both ways.


HOLMES: And there's a video review referee up there who looks at all sorts of things. Why not this one?


RIDDELL: You would think this would be the perfect one you would want to review it for because this was going to be the decisive kick to settle the

game. There was only two points in it. The Aussies won it by a single point. But it's not within the protocol to refer a decision like this to

the TMO, the Television Match Official.

But given how important it was, maybe they could have done something or maybe going forward they need to do something. The referee, South African,

Craig Joubert is actually very well regarded. He actually refed the final in 2011. But one of the things that has not helped is course is the manner

in which he sprinted off the field at the end of the game.

Now some would say it was because it was a partisan crowd in Twickenham, a lot of Scottish fans there, some things being thrown on to the field. But

it's just not rugby to leave the field that quickly. There's handshakes, you know everybody says good game, so well done, and he was out of there.

So that didn't reflect well on him.

HOLMES: Well with our last four teams are in and we'll see how it all unfolds over the next couple of weeks. Sorry about your lads. I've got a

couple of very big tough Scottish mates and I'm glad I wasn't watching it with them.

RIDDELL: You know the Aussies I think feel that this - they could be destined to win this now.

HOLMES: Fingers crossed.

RIDDELL: You know teams who come this close and survive sometimes feel like fates on their side.

HOLMES: All right, Don Riddell. We'll check in with you later. That's all the time we have. We've got to leave it there.

Wallabies all the way that's what we say here at The World Right Now, or me at least. Thanks for watching. "Quest Means Business" is next.