Return to Transcripts main page


Seeking a Solution to Crisis in Syria; Plane Catches Fire on Tarmac

Aired October 29, 2015 - 16:00   ET




HALA GORANI, HOST: Tonight, seeking a solution to the crisis in Syria.


JAVAD ZARIF, IRAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Not only I'm hopeful, we're also determined to not miss this opportunity.

GORANI: America, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Iran are together in Vienna. The U.N. Syria envoy tells me why he says this time there is reason for hope.

Plus this hour, dramatic scenes at a Florida airport after a plane catches fire on the tarmac. We have a report.

And new video emerging of a deadly shooting between biker gangs, we'll have that story as well. And China changes force. The world's most populous

country decides to allow couples to have two children.


GORANI: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani, we're live at CNN London. A lot going on today, and we have it all for you. This is The World Right Now.


GORANI: Well, we begin with those discussions to try to come to some sort of solution in Syria. Leaders from around the world are converging on

Vienna with that goal. And for the first time -- and this could be significant -- Iran is at the table.


GORANI: You see their delegation, longtime supporters of Bashar al Assad, they are arriving there, upper left. Also the Russian and U.S.

representatives made their way in. They will all gather in one room tomorrow along with Iran archrivals, Saudi Arabia, as well as Turkey.

All eyes on Iran the Foreign Minister Javad Zarif, a name you'll remember from the nuclear deal talks, said this about his country's invitation.

ZARIF: (As translated) We believe that Iran is a government and a country that has been a positive force in the region, and you could not put

conditions on Iran's presence in the talks. Therefore, no conditions were placed on our attendance at these talks. And if there had been, we would

not have accepted that.


GORANI: Javad Zarif, the table in Vienna sure will be crowded. The Egyptians will be there. The Lebanese, as I mentioned, the Turks, other

countries from around the region. But no Syrians in sight. With that in mind, how productive can these meetings really be?

Fred Pleitgen joins me now live from Vienna. What are you hearing fin the very early stages, Fred?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the early stages we're hearing from a lot of senior diplomats here on the ground who

are saying they believe that even though this meeting probably won't present some sort of solution to the Syria crisis, they believe that the

fact that it's happening in the constellation that we're seeing here come together in Vienna is something that already signals significant progress.


PLEITGEN: In fact, Federica Mogherini, the E.U Foreign Policy Chief was just here in front of the press just a couple of minutes ago, and said,

quite frankly, only about a week ago no one would have imagined that you would have seen a meeting like this one come together with the U.S.,

Russia, Saudi Arabia and Iran all trying to find some sort of solution together.

Now, of course, Hala, we all know there are a lot of skeptics about this meeting. The Saudis, for instance, saying they want to take the time here

to see whether or not Iran is even serious about all of this. You just showed Javad Zarif saying there should be absolutely no conditions for Iran

participating in the meeting. However, the fact that it's taking place is something where people are already saying that is already a very good



PLEITGEN: No one really expects there to be much in the way of results but a very positive result, for instance, would already be if they decide to,

for instance, continue meetings like this one going down the line to try to ultimately find some sort of path in the future to get the fighting in

Syria to stop.


PLEITGEN: But of course the biggest stumbling block in any sort of negotiations will be and is the future of Bashar al Assad. And we know that

the Iranians and the Russians are saying they're not averse to a transitional process in Syria, but they do believe that Assad can be part

of a such a process whereas the Turks for instance and the Saudis are saying flat-out Assad must go if there is going to be any sort of peace

process in Syria, Hala.

GORANI: All right, Fred Pleitgen is live in Vienna.

Well I spoke with the United Nations special envoy to Syria today. We talked about what is happening there in Vienna and how he hopes it will

translate to Syria. He told me in fact today that he will travel to Damascus on Saturday, that that is the plan. I began by asking Stefan de

Mistura, what is the best result he could hope for out of this round.


STEFAN DE MISTURA, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO SYRIA: Let's be clear. This is already quite an achievement, the very fact that they are taking place.

Think about what was a few weeks ago only. The fact that we have been asking everyone has been asking, certainly the U.N., we need to have the

Russians and Americans sitting together and not enough, also have the regional players who do have an influence.

Tomorrow, we believe we will have Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, America and many other countries. That's already quite an achievement. Next, it cannot

just be a procedural or protocol meeting. It needs to be addressing the real issues. And the real issue is military solutions we can see will not

lead anywhere. You need a parallel political solution based on a transformative new change of governance in Syria. That can be achieved if

everyone agrees upon it.

GORANI: You mentioned Iran. You mentioned Saudi Arabia. Of course those are important regional players, the United States and Russia as well. But, of

course, missing from this list are any Syrian representatives. Why weren't any invited to this round of talks?

DE MISTURA: The reason is very simple. The Syrians themselves have been telling us and telling everyone that they will never be able to have a

common ground unless those who have been sponsoring, supporting, helping or pushing them have been actually have a common agreement. The Syrian

different groups and the Syrian government will be involved and needs to be involved. That's why we have established a focal working groups, which have

been waiting for starting working but they need the energy of the international and regional political support. We have learned this.

Otherwise, they will not be able to agree.

GORANI: OK, so right now we have Iran, which is one big difference with all the other talks regarding Syria. What will Iran's presence -- what

difference will it make, the fact that it is now involved?

DE MISTURA: Well, a big difference. First of all, the fact that in the same room you will have Iran and Saudi Arabia together with the United States,

Russia, Turkey and many other countries who are having an influence and can have even more influence in finding a solution.

Secondly, the fact that Iran and it's not a secret, they are heavily involved in Syria. They are strongly supporting the current government. And

therefore they do have a possibility of realizing, too, that if they are not part of the solution, there will not be a solution. And we know that

they know that there is no military solution.

GORANI: But was Saudi Arabia asked for its backing, its approval before Iran was invited? I mean was there that level of discussion before? Do you


DE MISTURA: I am not going to elaborate on that. The most important thing is the facts and we should look at facts. And the fact is that Saudi Arabia

and Iran and these countries are going to be sitting in one small room in Vienna tomorrow. And that room could make history if we start talking

seriously about political process.

GORANI: If you look and you have more experience than most anyone on this, two of your predecessors eventually stepped down from the role you hold now

saying, we just can't get this done. Look at the time line ahead of you and when do you think Syrian representatives -- because nothing will be done

without them -- will be involved in talks, at what point do you think that can happen?

DE MISTURA: Imagine for a moment there would need to be not only visionary but hopeful because the Syrian people need to have some feeling that the

international community is seriously this time is looking at the political process. So imagine that tomorrow the meeting goes well or at least

maintains the momentum, I repeat the momentum. Imagine that takes place, we could engage very quickly the Syrian people and the different entities

quite quickly.


GORANI: Have you ever been? Is this the most hopeful you've been so far? Can we say that? Is that fair to say about your state of mind right now?

DE MISTURA: What you can say my state of mind is that I am cautious. We have had so many up and down in this tragic history. But it's the first

time we are seeing a serious, genuine intention of meeting and sitting around a table. From that point of view, not only I'm hope. We are also

determined to not miss this opportunity.


GORANI: All right, Stefan De Mistura there speaking to me a little bit earlier from Vienna. Tomorrow is the big day. No big solutions expected,

but as Stefan De Mistura was saying, for the first time Iran is involved. At least all these parties are together. Hopefully, quickly at some stage

Syrians will also be involved, representatives from the opposition, representatives from other sides as well.

An investigation now has been launched after a plane caught fire on a runway in Florida.


GORANI: The Boeing 767 was preparing to leave Ft. Lauderdale for Venezuela and a fuel leak was reported. Before the fire broke out, you can see the

dramatic aftermath there, all the passengers were evacuated. Alina Machado joins me now live with more.

So -- thankfully, no one was killed here but there were some injuries, Alina?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. There were 101 people on board Dynamic Airlines flight 405 when it caught fire

here at Ft. Lauderdale International Airport. As you mentioned this flight was supposed to go to Venezuela, specifically to Caracas, Venezuela a few

hours ago.

Now of the 101 people who were on that plane we are told 15 were taken to area hospitals. Most of what - of the injuries are what doctors call the

walking wounded -- people who suffered minor cuts and bruises. There are two people who have serious injuries and the most severe injury is a burn

victim. We don't know if the burn victim is a passenger or if that person is a crew member, Hala.

GORANI: And what do we know about the cause of this incident?

MACHADO: Well that is the big question this afternoon. I mean this is still in the early stages of the investigation, and we still don't know what

caused the problem. All we know is that the plane was reported to have been leaking fuel just before catching fire. We also have learned that the NTSC,

which is a government agency, is sending a four-person team to investigate the fire. And we've also learned that Boeing, the maker of the aircraft,

will be assisting the NTSC with their investigation.

GORANI: All right, Alina Machado is en route to Ft. Lauderdale in Florida. Thanks very much for joining us with the latest on that.


GORANI: A lot more to come. A major change in China. Couples can now have more than one child for the first time in decades.


GORANI: What will it mean for the country?






GORANI: To China now and a major change by the government.

Beijing says it will now allow couples to have two children effectively ending its decades-old one child policy. The controversial rule was

introduced to control population growth in the late '70s but last year it was somewhat relaxed allowing couples to have a second baby if the mother

or father was an only child.


GORANI: The reason for this, well quite simply, China is worried that its population is getting old. Let's get more analysis on this big change.


GORANI: I'm joined now in London by Jonathan Fenby, who is the Managing Director for China at the Research Service Trusted Sources. Thanks for

being with us.


GORANI: When you heard about this, were you surprised?

FENBY: Not all that much because they have been moving toward this for some time, as you said. The regulations were relaxed and also quite a lot of

people in China, particularly from ethnic minorities and parts of the rural population have not been subject to the one-child policy.

But this is definitely -- I mean it had become a very significant and almost symbolic example of state control, the one child policy. Now of

course it hasn't been relaxed completely because as you said there's now a limit of two children rather than one.

GORANI: Right, but they have big problems they need to confront, which is part of the reason I'm sure the rules were relaxed. They have a major

gender imbalance first of all, 20 to 30 million more men than women of marrying age.

By 2050, the U.N. estimates china will have about 440 million people over the age of 60. How long will it take to put a dent in those numbers?

FENBY: Well this is going to take - I mean if you think, you know if you change the rule today, it's going to take 18 years before you have a young

adult rate in 20 years - young adult population. And I don't think you'll see the birth rate shooting up in China as a result.

GORANI: You don't think we'll have a baby boom following that?

FENBY: I don't think there will be -

GORANI: Why not?

FENBY: I mean it's a great feeling that if you lift the restrictions immediately everyone will have babies. But first of all, fertility in

China, the fertility rate has been falling very much since 1970, even before the one child policy came in.

But then for a lot of Chinese, particularly younger middle class urban dwellers it's very expensive to have a baby. You go to a private hospital

because state hospitals are pretty terrible. Having a child is expensive. Then kindergarten places are few and far between. Often both parents are

working so you have a maid and so on. And you know, people -

GORANI: So they might be reluctant even though the rules now allow them. But this has led to so many abuses. Some shocking cases of forced

abortions, forced sterilization. You know, also as has been reported infanticide of baby girls which led to this gender imbalance. Selective

abortion of baby girls et cetera. How will it have an impact in case of human rights? Of individuals --

FENBY: And also abandoning of a particular children -

GORANI: .. of female babies.

FENBY: I mean you hear stories -- horrible stories of people on trains who just leaving them at the station and then get on the train to go to the

next place. I think this is probably -- it may have a long-term demographic effect but more immediately it is kind of an attempt by the communist

party, by the communist (inaudible) which made this decision today, meeting, to show more human faith towards younger people. Because there are

a lot of social challenges in China at the moment; this is where probably the regime is under most pressure, not so much from the economy or politics

but from air pollution, soil pollution, water pollution food safety and increasingly young middle class urban people who feel they're living in a

strait jacket and they want more freedom. This is a small step in that direction.

GORANI: And will that be enough?

FENBY: No, it won't be enough. There is an awful lot more to do. But it's - - the other side of it of course is the aging of the population which you referred to. More and more because of better health care, longevity is now

in the 70s.

GORANI: And how will the country pay for that? I mean what --

FENBY: This is the problem. They can't. Because the pension system is very underfunded. It's very inefficient -- Ineffective. The old (inaudible)

family which is meant to look after old people is under increasing strain because young people are moving away from the village, are moving to the

city. There's no longer the family cohesion. And interestingly, the Chinese parliament passed a law about 18 months ago under which if you're a parent

or grandparent, by law you can force your children or grandchildren to come to see you. I don't quite know how they do it, whether they send the police

around or what, but that's a sign that you know (inaudible) --


GORANI: I wasn't aware of this. There's a law that can compel your children to visit you in China.


FENBY: Yes - yes - yes.

GORANI: But this again is an extreme example of state intervention and really the private realm here, amnesty and I don't have to tell you this,

human rights groups say you know all these restrictions need to be removed completely. Will we see that day sooner rather than later?

FENBY: A little bit. There'll be moves in this direction. For instance, all Chinese have a registration permit, which is basically on their birth -

where they're born, their home village. If they go to live and work somewhere else, they have no right to education for their children, to

health care, to set up a business, to buy property, and so on. That's being relaxed, too. I think there is an awareness in the leadership there is need

for some relaxation.

GORANI: All right, well Jonathan Fenby, thanks very much. As I was mentioning there, Director for China at the Research Service Trusted

Sources, thanks for being with us, we really appreciate your expertise.

Still ahead, a new generation of terror.


GORANI: The head of the U.K.'s intelligence agency warns of the biggest threat to his country in more than 30 years. We'll look at that story

coming up. Stay with us.





GORANI: The head of British intelligence MI5 says the terror threat facing his nation is the highest he's seen in 32 years on the job. Andrew Parker

says the U.K. faces a threat that is three-dimensional, overseas, at home and online.



GORANI: He gave a speech in London and he said "we are seeing plots against the U.K. directed by terrorists in Syria; enabled through contacts with

terrorists in Syria and inspired online by ISIL sophisticated exploitation of technology. It uses the full range of modern communication tools to

spread its message of hate and to inspire extremists, sometimes as young as their teens, to conduct attacks."


GORANI: Let's get the latest from CNN's Diana Magnay. She joins me now live from Scotland Yard in London. What does it mean the highest level of

threat? Because we've covered these stories for a long time. It's not unusual to hear, you know, sort of intelligence chiefs warning against

terrorist threats. What does he mean exactly by highest he's ever seen?

DIANA MAGNAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he says that over the past year the level of threat has grown. It is at severe, which means that

the likelihood of an attack on British soil is highly likely, and I think the fact that he points to six foiled attacks over the past year is

testament to that.

But the reason why he's bringing this up now Hala, is because next week the British parliament is going to be debating what's called the Investigatory

Powers Bill, basically new powers of surveillance to let intelligence and security agencies likeMIi5, MI6, GCHQ, have more legally defined powers to

access the way that terrorists are communicating online.

And he is very concerned about the very sophisticated way that terrorists and namely ISIS are communicating online and that there are corners of the

web which are going dark, as the FBI calls it. Which means that even with the legal warrants, the agencies don't have the technical wherewithal

because of encryption and things like that actually access corners of the web. And they need to talk to internet service providers and

telecommunications companies to try and dig in to where ISIS and other terror groups have sort of infill rated themselves. And that is his primary

concern and that's why he's coming out and making these very public comments for a very secretive agency. Hala?

GORANI: But that's a very touchy subject, of course, accessing encrypted information, asking service providers to give you access to communications

agencies, intelligence agencies might think pose some sort of threat. This conflicts entirely with the idea of online privacy. Is this statement

designed in any way to sort of make that message sort of -- make that message clearer when these decisions have to be made?

MAGNAY: I think it's designed in large part to get the public on board. And interestingly, in the various polls that have been conducted recently, it

does appear as though the majority of people feel that if the terrorist threat is big enough, that terrorism takes precedence or their security

takes precedence over issues of privacy here in the U.K. in contrast to, say, in Germany where it's not so clearly dined.

So that's definitely why he's coming out and saying this kind of thing. There are various arguments especially for the internet service providers,

for example, that they collate so much information that they'll then sell onto consumer companies on our habits online. So the agencies feel, why

can't they contribute or help in terms of keeping people safe? That's one very powerful argument that they have.

Also, if you look at companies, social media companies, like Facebook, they're doing quite a lot of policing, for instance, child sex offenders,

pedophiles. So the argument for the agency is, why can't you help us out a bit more in terms of security? But it's just very difficult to define what

the limits are to security in this sense. And that's why he's calling for a much more transparent legal framework, a framework that's been described by

David Anderson who conducted a review of this as being at the moment intolerable and not working at all.

GORANI: Diana Magnay in Scotland Yard, thanks very much. A lot more to come this hour. The Republican candidates for President gathered once again to

face questions.


GORANI: But how did they perform in the latest debate? We'll look into that. We have a live report from Washington.

Also coming up, dramatic new video emerging from a biker shootout in Texas. We'll bring you those pictures in a few minutes.






GORANI: A look at your top stories. Iran is attending Syria crisis talks for the first time.


GORANI: They join the U.S., Russia, archrivals Saudi Arabia as well as other countries in efforts to end the civil war. The U.N. Special envoy to

Syria told me the fact that all these key players are coming together is progress in itself. Just moments ago, the E.U. Foreign Policy Chief echoed

that message.

FEDERICA MOGHERINI, EU HIGH REPRESENATIVE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Tomorrow here in Vienna we'll have all the relevant actors, both regionally and

internationally, relevant actors playing around the same table trying to define a common space for the beginning of political process to find a

solution to the crisis in Syria.


GORANI: The threat from ISIS to Britain has never been higher according to the head of the country's security agency.


GORANI: MI5 boss, Andrew Parker says plots against the U.K. are increasingly being directed by militants in Syria via the internet. He

says the U.K. faces the highest level of threat he's seen in his career.


GORANI: China is ending its controversial one child policy.


GORANI: The state-run news Xinhua News Agency says Beijing will now allow every couple to have two kids. The rule was put in place in the '70s to

control population growth. It led to some terrible abuses, including forced abortions, forced sterilizations, and other abuses.


GORANI: The new U.S. House speaker says it's time to move forward and fix what he called a "broken house."


GORANI: That is from representative Paul Ryan who was officially elected as the 54th Speaker of the House. 236 lawmakers picked Ryan for the job in

Thursday's vote. He's replacing John Boehner who resigned last month. The newly elected speaker had this message for his colleagues.


PAUL RYAN, U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: The House is broken. We're not solving problems. We're adding to them. And I am not interested in laying blame. We

are not settling scores. We are wiping the slate clean.


GORANI: Another big political talking point, the latest Republican debate. The candidates took to the stage for another round, this time with CNBC

moderators. And on Wednesday night, the economy was the focus. Andrew Spencer has some of the highlights.


ANDREW SPENCER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The Republican front- runner Ben Carson stayed his low-key self wednesday night. When CNBC moderator Becky Quick challenged Carson on his flat tax rate plan, he

argued it would work with spending cuts and economic stimulus.

BEN CARSON, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTAL CANDIDATE: We have 645 federal agencies and sub-agencies. Anybody who tells me that we need every penny in every

one of those is in a fantasy world.

BECKY QUICK, CNBC MODERATOR: You'd have to cut government by about 40% to make it work with the $1.1 trillion rule.

CARSON: It's not true.

QUICK: It is true. I looked at the numbers.

CARSON: When we put all the facts down, you'll be able to see that it's not true. It works out very well.

SPENCER: Uncharacteristically, Donald Trump also kept himself mostly low- key. He directed his only attacks at governor John Kasich.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He was so nice. He was such of a nice guy. And he said, oh, I'm never going to attack. But then

his poll numbers tanked. He's got -- that's why he's on the end. And he got nasty. He got nasty.

SPENCER: Much of the debate focused on money, taxes and the national debt.

MARCO RUBIO, REPUCLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Firstly, there's no bipartisanship in Washington? We have a $19 trillion bipartisan debt and it

continues to grow as we borrow money from companies - from countries that do not like us to pay for government we cannot afford.

SPENCER: When Jeb Bush touted his record of cutting taxes the moderator asked if he would consider a deal with democrats that would raise taxes for

$1 with every $10 spending cuts.

JEB BUSH, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You find a Democrat that's for cutting taxes with every spending $10, I'll give them a warm kiss.

SPENCER: Carly Fiorina says politicians have talked about tax reform for decades.

CARLY FIORINA, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are loads of great ideas, great conservative ideas, from wonderful think tanks about how to

reform the tax code. The problem is, we never get it done.

SPENCER: She says it will take a strong leader to do just that. I'm Andrew Spencer reporting.


GORANI: Joining us now with a view on all of this from Washington is our senior political reporter Manu Raju. Thanks for join us.

First of all one of the interesting aspects going into the debate Manu, was that Ben Carson had the poll position, Donald Trump trailing in second

position. Did anything that happened last night, could anything that happened last night, change any of the - any of that?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, I think so. Particularly actually when you look at some of the other candidates in the race.


RAJU: You know Jeb bush in particular. I think he really needed to have a very big moment in that debate, break out from the pack and really reassure

a lot of his donors and supporters who have been nervous about the way he has been campaigning. But he did not have that last night. He spoke

probably I think the least amount of time other than one other candidate Rand Paul, on the stage, and he really was flat. And I think that's got a

lot of his supporters very, very nervous. So that could impact that aspect of it.

Now, Trump, You know he was not really the focus of the debate the way he has been in past debates. Instead, we saw other candidates really take the

spotlight, including Marco Rubio, the Florida Republican senator who's getting a lot of praise today for his performance last night. We will see

if that translates into better poll numbers and better fund-raising. He needs to have both in order to succeed in those early states. That's going

to be a big question ahead of the next debate in the next couple of weeks.

GORANI: What struck me this morning when I read about the debate was how often CNBC was slammed. It was criticized across the board. I mean, they

were really giving the moderators a tough time. What are - what are some of the -- what is some of the criticism out there?

RAJU: Yes. It was really widespread criticism in the media and among those political candidates. The criticism was that the moderators kind of lost

control of the process. I mean, they asked questions. They didn't seem totally prepared for the responses and particularly the sharp pushback from

the candidates. The candidates quickly used it to their advantage, tried to make the case that they were the victims, being attacked by very aggressive

and hostile questioners.

And what was surprising to me as a viewer is not to see the moderators not really being prepared for that kind of attack. They sort of lost control of

it, and they gave these candidates an opportunity to really bash the media, which was you know pretty -- which plays well particularly in Republican

circles who believe that Republicans are often the victim of media bias.

GORANI: The left leaning mainstream media narrative, we've heard that. Let's quickly talk about Paul Ryan he's now the new speaker of the House,

how will things change? He's promising big changes for sure.


RAJU: He is. And the challenge for him is the numbers are still the same. Even though he's promising a more different type of approach, a different

type of speakership, he's of course a new generation. He's a 45-year-old congressman replacing a 65-year-old John Boehner who is leaving. But still

the dynamic is the same. He has to deal with a very divided house Republican conference between more moderate members and a handful of - a

block of very conservative members and deal with the United States senate, which is an institution that's very difficult to pass legislation through.

And also there is a Democrat in the White House so Paul Ryan's challenges will be pretty steep and it remains to be seen how exactly he can

accomplish all these big goals he laid out today.

GORANI: All right, we're seeing John Boehner on his way out as well. Manu Raju, thanks very much joining us from Washington. Appreciate it.

RAJU: Thank you.


GORANI: After a quick break, dramatic video as emerged of a shooting between police and biker gangs.

GORANI: It happened in May. We're getting the video now. Nine people were killed, 170 arrested at the time. Ed Lavandera has the story.


ED LAVANDERA, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This was the scene inside the Twin Peaks restaurant in may just before the violent shootout that

killed nine people and ended up in the mass arrests of 177 bikers.

A fight and shootout erupts just off camera between a group of motorcycle clubs call the Banditos and the Cosacks. The reaction tells the story of

the chaos and horrific scene that unfolds as the gunshots start exploding.

Members of the Cosack's club are sitting on this patio. They duck for cover. Some grab firearms and other weapons. One biker is seen on the

surveillance video running through the patio and firing a shot toward the parking lot. Dozens of bikers rush inside the building, hide in bathrooms

and the restaurant kitchen. John Wilson is the president of the Waco Texas area chapter of the Cosack's motorcycle club. He was on the twin peaks

patio that day.

JOHN WILSON, BIKER: The whole incident probably didn't last more than 90 seconds. It seemed like an hour when you're laying there and people are

getting shot around you and bullets are whizzing by you.

LAVANDERA: In dozens of police interviews, Cosack and Bandito bike club members blame their rivals for starting the deadly melee. After it was all

over, crime scene photos capture the nightmarish scene. Bodies left in the parking lot by toppled motorcycles, hundreds of weapons all over the place,

handguns even left hidden in the restaurant toilets.

CNN has obtained more than 2,000 pages of documents, crime scene photos, many too graphic to show, and surveillance video giving us the most

detailed accounts of what unfolded last May. Waco police and prosecutors have consistently defended the mass arrests of the 177 bikers that day, all

charged with organized criminal activity.

PATRICK SWANTON, WACO POLICE DEPARTMENT: I think you can see by the number of weapons that we have recovered from here today they didn't come here to

eat and have a good time with their family. They came here for a reason, we think part of that reason was criminal activity.

LAVANDERA: But many of the bikers and their attorneys say investigators and prosecutors overreacted by carrying out mass arrests, some say these videos

show the vast majority are innocent of the criminal charges.

SUSAN ANDERSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They just did a round up and arrested everybody before they determined who was involved.

LAVANDERA: These are just some of the videos investigators are using to piece together what happened that day five months ago. A shootout that one

witness said looked like the gun fight at the OK Corral.


GORANI: Ed Lavandera reporting. A quick break. We'll be right back.




GORANI: Well, I want to take you back to a story we told you about earlier. China ending its controversial one child policy. The decades-old rule was

relaxed somewhat last year to allow couples to have a second baby in certain cases. But since then, due to financial concerns, few people have

actually taken advantage of the new rules. Back in March, David McKenzie spoke to one such couple.


DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Every Chinese family revolves around a child. They call her (inaudible) or little peach. Like

both her parents before her, Tao is an only child. Once my cousin visited and we shared a bed for a few nights, says her dad. I really enjoyed that

feeling and I wished I had a brother.

But for decades, the communist party has relentlessly pushed its one child policy. When propaganda like this didn't work, they used heavy fines and

forced abortion to curb population growth. Now some experts call the one child policy a glaring mistake.

PROF. WANG FENG, FUDAN UNIVERSITY: China has already begun to feel an unfolding crisis in terms of its population change.

MCKENZIE: The one child policy gambled with china's economic future. The world's second biggest economy now faces a rapidly aging population and

shrinking workforce.

In just 15 years there will be more than 400 million elderly here in China and many Chinese feel that the one child policy is out of step.

So the party has changed its tune, pushing a new ideal family on T.V. with a daughter and a son, where more is better.

Tao's parents and millions of other are now eligible for a second child. They should be ideal candidates. But housing in Beijing is costly, and they

say China is too Competitive. Good schools too expensive to even contemplate a second child. Money is only part of the problem, she says.

Your energy and your time is also important. We both have to work. It's hard enough to raise her as a success. It will be miserable if we have to

go through that again.

David McKenzie, CNN, Beijing.


GORANI: The Amazon rain forest is being torn apart to make a profit on the black market.


GORANI: But not if one group can help it. Up next, we're on the road with Brazil's eco-police.






GORANI: Experts say if average global temperatures rise just two degrees we are at risk for global catastrophe.

GORANI: A big cause of climate change is burning rain forests. They account for up to 20% of global greenhouse gas emissions a year. Brazil has been

trying to clamp down on that by designating some rain forests as national parks. Not everyone is following the rules. Shasta Darlington joined the

country's eco-police for this exclusive report.


SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Flying low over the Amazon rain forest with agents from Brazil's Ibama Environmental Police. We zero in on

the target, the turquoise waters of an illegal gold mine carved into the heart of the jungle. First chopper down. Now the hunt is on.

We follow as Ibama agents search the camp prepared for retaliation. They arrest the leader of the mine and seize weapons.

The first helicopter came down with a number of men armed. They came out, secured the area, made sure nobody else here had any weapons that they were

pointing at the helicopter, something that has happened in the past. Now it seems to be fairly under control. The man in charge shows us the precarious

tent they all share. I know we're destroying the trees, he says, but unfortunately it's the only way for those of us who live here and don't

have jobs or studies.

He says the gold they've mined is barely enough to survive on. But the excavator he bought is worth over $100,000. Ibama Agents say it's big

business, tearing up the rain forest contaminating rivers for generations to come.

We're fighting a war, he says, a war to protect the environment in Brazil. They destroy the camp, although the workers were set free. And we head back

to the base to gear up for a night raid on illegal loggers led by a 32- year-old known by her many enemies as the blonde devil.


They're hauling out 19 trucks a day from indigenous territory, she says. They're stealing from the country, and it's our job to stop them.

The first truck takes them by surprise. State agents shoot at the engine to stop it. Then the first arrest of the night. Agents now hunker down and

wait. We're waiting for a second logging truck. But in the meantime we've heard on the radio that the order has been given to run over anybody who

gets in their way.

But the next series of trucks are halted at the barricades without confrontation. More arrests follow. The operation has just come to an end

as they manage to get five trucks. If you can come along here with me, I know it's hard to see because it's dark. But these are absolutely enormous

logs. They've come from an indigenous territory about 15 kilometers away. And they go for thousands on the retail market.

Overwhelmed and underfunded, the eco-police then use one of the few effective tools they have. They torch it all. The illegal logs, trucks

included. And take a few minutes to savor their small victory in a very long ecological war.

Shasta Darlington, CNN, (inaudible), Brazil.


GORANI: This has been The World Right Now. I'm Hala Gorani, thanks for watching. Quest Means Business is next.