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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

U.S. Sending Ground Troops to Syria. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired October 30, 2015 - 12:00   ET

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Breaking news on the war against ISIS. The United States is sending what the administration calls a small compliment, fewer than 50, special operations forces, and they are headed right for northern Syria. Joining me now is CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr with the news and CNN's senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh, who is live in southern Turkey bordering Syria. And also joining me, CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer.

Barbara, first to you. The news, not unexpected, but serious news, and it is getting a lot of reaction. Walk me through it.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Ashleigh.

It is right where Nick is speaking, as you - as we speak on that border between Syria and Turkey that this is now getting so complicated. The U.S. special operations forces will be headed to the Syrian side of the border. It is something the Turks are very concerned about because they see some of the fighters, the Kurdish fighters that the U.S. wants to support there, as terrorists. But the U.S. determined to go ahead.

The special operations forces will be there to help both Kurdish and Arab fighters that are fighting ISIS along that border. They are not supposed to be going into combat, but it's going to be very difficult perhaps at various points to avoid the dangers that are there. Their goal, their mission will be to support the fighters, help with ammunition, supplies, logistics, vehicles, get them moving on the battlefield, to gather intelligence about what is going on, on the ground.

They will have the right, obviously, to defend themselves, if they come under attack. And if the Kurds or the Arabs want help going forward, if there's a particular mission, a particular raid that they want U.S. assistance on, that will require, we are told, additional approvals, but it is possible. And all of that, Ashleigh, adds up to the fact these special operations forces, the most elite, the best trained, still walking into very dangerous territory.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And to that point, Barbara, exactly, this is such fresh news and I don't know that the answers are out there for this question, but as they walk into that mess, there are forces fighting against ISIS, there are forces fighting against Assad on the ground, and some of those forces are Russian. Do we know what the Americans' rules of engagement would be were they to encounter forces who are fighting against Assad? Are they at some point possibly going to shift the battle towards Assad or is this strictly ISIS and how are they supposed to know the difference sometimes in the fog of that messy war?

STARR: Well, let's keep the map up for a minute because that tells parts of this story. Along this area of the border, this is mainly, right now at least, an anti-ISIS fight. But here's an interesting prospect. If there are U.S. troops on the ground and the Russians say they want to bomb ISIS, which they claim they want to do, even though they're not, you know, how will the Russians know where those U.S. forces are?

But at the part of the border really right now is an ISIS fight. But west of the Euphrates, as you get closer to where the Russians are in the western Syria, from west of the Euphrates into western Syria, we are told this is an area where a good deal of the Arab coalition fighters are that the U.S. wants to help. They want to get them moving into this area west of the Euphrates. And as you get west of the Euphrates, you are eventually going to get closer to where the Russians are. It's a long ways off, but it really goes to how complex this entire battlefield is.

BANFIELD: I'm just going to throw another wrench in there, and this one's going to go to Nick Paton Walsh, who, as, Barbara, you so acutely noted, is standing right on the verge of where this is all to happen.

Nick, we have heard over and over again from Kurdish forces and others that they actually don't want American boots on the ground, they want the money, they want the goods, they want the help but not the guys (ph). Is that now shifting that strategy or at least on the ground are they addressing that right now that this move has been made public by the White House?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the notion really has been they didn't want to see the 82nd airborne turning up in thousands strong trying to do the fighting for them. They want to fight for the land themselves, frankly, because it's their land and they know it. What they do want is weapons. And you can't really have that unless you have U.S. personnel on the ground working out who needs what. Second to that, they certainly want air support. They benefitting (ph) that for the past month. You're going to get much more effective air support if the Americans know it's the American special forces have chosen the particular target they're firing at. So I think possibly this very small contingent headed that way may well be welcomed with open arms.

[12:05:10] But it's who's doing to be doing the welcoming, Ashleigh, that is quite so tricky here. Yes, we know that the YPG are very keen on American support. They used it to retake Kobani from ISIS. And we know too that there's a little bit of (INAUDIBLE) about letting the YPG do all the fighting against ISIS because those Kurds tend to hang on, they're being criticized, to the territory they take, not giving it back to their sort of Syrian Arabs who would normally live there. There are what's called the Syrian Arab Coalition who is supposed to get some of this American assistance.

But let's face it, they're not a big player on the battlefield. No one knows how many of them there really are. They are thousands in number. And the big issue here too is the Americans have just closed $500,000 train and equip program for moderate Syrian rebels. They only got 54 of them through that program. So the guys clearly didn't make it into that bunch of vetted rebels. They're a different lot. They're willing to take the risk, it seems, with special forces on the ground. And there's one key directive really here, they just announced in the past few days that some Syrian moderate rebels would be begging what they referred to as the battle for Raqqa, calling the area around this a military zone. They're far off actually launching a battle for that ISIS stronghold, the capital of their self-declared caliphate.

But all this is in sequence here. And there's one more really important bit of context, Ashleigh. This happened slap in the middle of these Vienna peace talks. No mistake in the timing here at all. I think many are seeing the Russians signaling in the past week to the Americans, don't send troops to Syria, stay out of Assad's territorial space. Well, this is the American response. They don't want to be seen to be giving up the military space to the Russian here. Regardless of how the signal goes off during these peace talks, I guess it's pretty much time to play to America's disinterest (ph) during whatever's happening in that closed room in Vienna.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, Nick, stand by, if you will.

I want to bring in Bob Baer right now, a former CIA operative, as I mentioned, and CNN intelligence and security analyst. You know a thing or two about Syria. You spent many years in Syria. There is no easy answer to the quandary and some say quagmire that is Syria right now. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. But I guess the really simple question is right, with what we've just learned, what could possibly go wrong?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Ashleigh, you have to look at this in the context of the wider conflict in the Middle East, which is between Iran and Syria. The administration is extremely worried about the tensions. I mean just the statements coming out of Vienna are incredible. I've never seen relations worse between Saudi Arabia and Iran since 1995, the Khobar (INAUDIBLE) bombing.

So - and Syria is the battleground. And it's the battleground between the United States and Russia, between Saudi Arabia and Iran. And this is, frankly, a very schizophrenic policy because what they want the YPG really wants, at the end of the day, is independence. They are never going back to rule by Damascus or ruled by Syrian Arabs. And, of course, we're right up - (INAUDIBLE) against the Turks, who are absolutely opposed to a third state. I don't know how this is going to play out. But on the other hand, (INAUDIBLE) come back to is the administration, (INAUDIBLE) desperately do anything - anything to (INAUDIBLE) backing in Syria, even if it means sending troops in. But at the end of the day, I frankly think it's going to be a bit of a quagmire and there's no easy solutions and this is going to (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: Yes. I'm losing your audio, Bob, for some reason. I think our Skype connection is just weak, and I want to come back to you, so we're going to try and work on that. I want to hear more of your perspective on that.

I also want to go to our CNN senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward, who is live with me in London and is just back from some pretty compelling reporting about some of these fighters. I want to get it from your perspective on the ground, and also just - just to let our audience know, to the right of Clarissa is General Mark Hartling a CNN military analyst, retired Army former commanding general of Europe and the Seventh Army.

General Hartling, I'm going to come to you in a moment.

Clarissa, your perspective, having just returned from the region?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Ashleigh, we spent four or five days in Rosalba (ph), as the independent Kurdish area of Syria is called, and we were actually embedded with the YPG Kurdish fighters who will be the primary recipients of this boost in U.S. support and these special advisors who will be on the ground. And it's very interesting because for a while now we've had a sense that these YPG fighters are very much at the corps of the U.S.'s latest strategy to deal with ISIS, precisely because they have enjoyed some decisive victories against ISIS on the battlefield.

But we were quite surprised when we actually spent time with them on the ground. We saw just how poorly equipped they were, how lightly armed they were. Most of these men fighting with rusty old AK-47s. Some of them fighting in their sneakers and their sandals. Certainly they did not appear to have great training. And they were complaining pretty regularly actually about the level of weaponry that they had to fight with. They didn't have the heavier weapons, the armor piercing weapons. The U.S. has made it very clear that it is hopeful that the YPG, along with the sort of coterie of smaller Arab militias, will try to take on the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa. And from our perspective, it was pretty clear that that was not going to happen without some major uptick, some major momentum in terms of increased U.S. support. So certainly this represents a pretty dramatic shift in the dynamic there.

[12:10:39] BANFIELD: All right. Clarissa, stand by, if you will.

I'm going to fit in a quick break, but not before I put this on the table, and that is the Iraq redux. We heard months and months ago that there were advise and assist experts, American boots, that would be on the ground in Iraq in this kind of capacity, and it certainly sounds a lot like what we're hearing is about to happen next door in Syria.

When we come back, I want to get the general's reaction to that to compare and to contrast what kind of successes we've seen in Iraq next door, and we will also take you live inside Iraq. Our Nima Elbagir is there. We are back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:36] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BANFIELD: And we are bringing you breaking news right now on this latest announcement from the White House on an increase in troop levels, not in Iraq, in Syria this time. This is a live picture from the White House Briefing Room. We are expecting in about 15 minutes to get a live update on this brand new announcement and this new shift in American strategy with regard to putting boots on the ground. Albeit about 50, and they are in an advise and assist capacity, not so much in a combat role. But as Barbara Starr aptly reported just moments ago, it could easily turn to combat as they do have that right to defend themselves.

It is very similar to the mission that we heard announced in Iraq, those advise and assist boots on the ground that have been coordinating ground attack and advising and assisting local Kurds and local forces in Iraq. I want to bring back our CNN military analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hartling, as well as Clarissa Ward, our senior international correspondent, and also Nima Elbagir, who is a senior international correspondent. She is live in northern Iraq right now.

I'm going to go out to you first if I can, Nima. We're getting some of the first reaction on the ground from those Kurds who are hearing that this kind of assistance is on the way. What are you hearing?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, and this is incredibly important because the Syrian Kurds are the only really prove (ph) partner at this point to the U.S., to the coalition forces inside Syria. They have had tangible successes. So it's very important that their initial reaction has been, well, this is welcomed, but we want more. We want more assistance. We want a greater presence. We want really to get what - everything we can really to try and finally bring this to a close.

And this comes at a very critical time, Ashleigh, because even just hours from here, preparations are underway for the battle for Mount Sinjar, which is along that crucial supply line for ISIS between Syria and Iraq. And this has been supported even just today by coalition strikes. Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: General Hartling, if you could weigh in on these coalition strikes that we have now reported on for the better part of a year. It sounds like a repeat of the strategy that has been employed in Iraq, the advise and assist and the air strike coordination now in Syria, but there is a vast difference of what's going on in Syria than what was going on in Iraq. So help me navigate why this is so much more difficult and perhaps more significant.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, the first thing that causes it to be more challenging is the fact that we didn't have the contacts among the Arab Syrian forces. We had to establish that. And that's what's been happening for the last several months, Ashleigh. We have increased our engagement with the YPG, the Syrian Kurds, and I think we've seen them as very good fighters. But, truthfully, I'm having a little bit of deja vu on this because when I commanded in northern Iraq in 2008, we had some of our operators in the Kurdish area, we had some of our operators in the Arab area, and we were able to coordinate their activity between the two.

Now that we're beginning to place, and have the trust in, some of the local militias, those special forces soldiers that will be getting the advice and assist (ph), and this has always been part of the strategy to eventually get them in there, General Dempsey said this over a year ago when we had more contact, when we had more indications that things were moving further, he would go to the president and suggest that we have these advisers in, that's what you're seeing now. This hasn't just happened overnight. There's been a lot of coordination, a lot of cooperation, the naming of the contacts that we didn't have before. And this could hasten, I think, the activity in northern Syria.

BANFIELD: But not to suggest that northern Iraq hasn't been complicated, it's been complicated. But the notion that there is now this battle involving Russian troops in the air, and on the ground, thousands of different factions of fighters in Syria, some fighting Assad, some fighting each other, some fighting ISIS, some we're not sure exactly what they're doing. Many of them are foreigners who have just flown there to join the bang-bang. I just can't imagine how difficult this is as a mission.

[12:19:56] HERTLING: Yes. Yes, it - from a military perspective, this is extremely complicated. And your question to Barbara Starr a little bit earlier was a very good one. What about the engagement between western and Russian forces? What's going to happen there? Well, I've got to guarantee you there, Ashleigh, if we put special forces on the ground, you can bet your life that they will have overhead cover, that if any Russian jets come into the fray into that area, they will be shooed off by the U.S. Air Force. And I don't think - you know, you're looking at it from a different perspective of, hey, we've got - now got forces on the ground. What's going to happen to them if the Russians come in? The Russians are also giving indicators of where they are. They haven't entered into that area. They've been more focused on the Damascus and Homs area. So I don't think you're going to see that kind of conflict. But if you do, I can guarantee you that we will protect our forces there. BANFIELD: Well, Clarissa Ward, if you could weigh in, and, again, I want to remind any viewers that are just joining us, Clarissa has just come back from northern Syria and she has been speaking to those on the ground. This is going to sounding like a very sophomoric question, but for people on the ground it is not. Sometimes it's really hard to tell who are the Kurds, who are the Arabs, who's fighting ISIS and who belongs to which faction. And when you figure that out, it is as amorphous as anything in that region. They change all the time.

So, Clarissa, the question is, how on earth are the Americans to know who they are advising and assisting, and how are they to keep track?

WARD: Well, Ashleigh, it's a very good question and it's a very, very complex picture. And I think that's why ultimately the U.S. seems to have arrived at the conclusion that the Kurds are really the people that they want to go with. Now, they may be talking ultimately about this umbrella group, this Syrian coalition democratic forces or whatever acronym they've come up with to describe them. But let's be clear, we're talking about 5,000 Arab fighters who are fighting along with the roughly 30,000 Kurdish YPG fighters.

Now, why the Kurds? Why the YPG? What distinguishes them from other rebel groups fighting on the ground? And I would say there are several many factors that really separate them from the others. Firstly, the Kurds, at this stage, are only interested in fighting ISIS. That is their primary objective. They don't have an alliance with the regime of Bashar al Assad, but they certainly have a sort of de facto truce that agrees between them - that exists between them. So their efforts very much focus on fighting ISIS. That really is what they want to do.

Secondly, within all the other rebel groups, you will a lot of fluidity. Someone might fight for one group one day, then on another day fight for a different group or his brother fights for an Islamic group and he fights for a moderate group. There's much more fluidity. The Kurds, however, tend to be quite insular. They stick to themselves. They have their own language. And really their ultimate goal here is about establishing a contiguous, autonomous Kurdish- speaking region. So in that sense, this may be kind of a temporary, convenient marriage between the U.S. and the Kurds because, ultimately, the real question will be, to what extent do the Kurds want to focus on routing ISIS out of Arab areas? So far they've really been interested in getting them out of Kurdish areas.

And I think that's why we're now seeing the U.S. advisers coming in on the ground because there's a lot of talk about Raqqa, and trying to get momentum going for an offensive in Raqqa. This is an ISIS stronghold, Ashleigh, and this is very much Arab territory. The question is, do the Kurds have the will or the ability to take on an offensive like Raqqa? And I guess the answer is, the U.S. seems to think, well, maybe with some added military advisers on the ground, there's a greater chance that they will be able to achieve that.

BANFIELD: So I guess that, you know, that the language that stuck out to me was that this effort is to help local Kurdish and Arab forces. The Kurds, I get. We have a long history with the Kurds. I just wonder if that - that little added on word Arab tacked on is to keep the window open for anything that develops, Clarissa?

WARD: I - I think, Ashleigh, really the reason you're hearing this insistence on the Arab involvement is because this can't look - take it from the perspective of someone living in Raqqa, who doesn't necessarily have any sympathy for ISIS, doesn't enjoy living under their rule, but also doesn't want to see Kurdish people coming in to liberate them. Those Arabs would see Kurdish forces in a sense perhaps even as occupying forces. So it's very important from the perspective of keeping a balance of sectarian and ethnic sensitivities that this not be perceived as a Kurdish force. That it be sort of a multiethnic force with a significant Arab contingent. At the same time, let's be clear, the reality on the ground, we're talking about roughly 30,000 Kurdish YPG fighters, and maybe roughly 5,000 Arab fighters. This is very much a Kurdish operation.

BANFIELD: I just want to mention a quick note from Mac Thornberry, who we had on our program not too long ago, he's the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, putting out a statement. "Absent a larger coherent strategy, these steps may prove to be too little too late." This is not without criticism from numerous different parties.

[12:25:17] I'm going to ask you guys to stay, if you can, for a moment. We are looking at the clock and watching as the White House Briefing Room gets ready for a briefing. And this briefing to perhaps lay out a little bit more context to this news that troops will be on the ground in Syria. After all, U.S. troops on the ground, albeit it 50, albeit with a similar mission as they have northern Iraq to advise and assist, but we have just seen evidence this week where that quickly can turn to combat. Live to break for a moment and back hopefully with some news from the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)