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Nancy Grace
Body Exhumed in Bathtub Death. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired November 03, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news, live. A gorgeous young mom of two married to a world renowned backgammon master found dead in the bathtub of
her luxury apartment. The 9-year-old daughter wakes up to find Mommy`s dead from a slip and fall her only visible injury the cut to the back of
Shele`s head.
Bombshell now. After Shele`s body exhumed, the case cracks wide open just 60 days before Shele`s husband lays claim to his wife`s $4 million
fortune.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shele Covlin was found by her 9-year-old daughter face down...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead in a bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His wife, who had recently filed for divorce and was cutting him out of her millions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he was arrested...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For allegedly strangling his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, after 33-year-old mom of three Jessica Pageant (ph) vanishes on her break at work at Duck Duck Goose child care, Jessica`s
body discovered in a shallow grave on the property of her own stepfather. Stunning details emerge. The young mom of three targeted for sex post-
mortem? Translation, police believe this mom sexually molested after she`s murdered? Tonight, stunning new developments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Allegations that Gregory Graf (ph) shot and killed his own stepdaughter to have sex with her dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a videotape that`s apparently self- recorded of him engaging in sexual acts with the deceased body of Jessica Pageant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a star high school football player ejected after a winning touchdown because the player says a quick prayer after scoring,
this on the heels of a Seattle coach suspended, suspended from work for praying alone on the field after a game! What happened to the 1st
Amendment?
Hello. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. A gorgeous young mother of two married to a world renowned backgammon master found dead in the bathtub of her luxury
apartment. The 9-year-old daughter finds Mommy dead from a slip and fall, her only visible injury the cut to the back of Shele`s head.
After Shele`s body exhumed, the case cracks wide open just 60 days before Shele`s husband lays claim to his wife`s $4 million fortune.
Straight out to Chris Spargo, reporter, Dailymail.com. I want to start at the beginning about the 9-year-old -- here`s a shot of Shele right
there. Now, she made her own fortune, millions and millions of dollars. She`s a business person. She`s in business with her family. She, with her
own hands, her hard work, her ingenuity amassed a $4 million fortune.
Chris, I want to go back to the discovery of the body. The body was found -- Shele`s body has been found in the bathtub in her luxury
apartment. The daughter comes in. I believe it`s in the morning. She wakes up and finds Mommy dead. And she`s not covered in bruises. Remember
Kathleen Savio, the wife, the first wife of Drew Peterson? She was battered and bruised and bloody. And they said it was a slip and fall.
Well, not so in Shele`s case, Chris Spargo. She had one injury. Shele Covlin has one injury, and it`s a cut to the back of her head.
Well, for religious reasons, Chris, isn`t it true her family had her buried immediately?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): That is true, Nancy, yes. So the family is orthodox Jewish, so they didn`t have an autopsy
done. They had her buried right away. And at the beginning, that seemed - - you know, there wasn`t foul play, of course, because she was found in the bathtub face down. There`s only one single cut to her head when the
daughter found her early that morning.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Chris Spargo. You`re seeing shots of the floor plan of the home there where Shele lived. Chris, was there water in
the bathtub? I`ve always been curious about that.
For those of you just joining us, this mother of one, very hard- working business lady, a young mom found dead of a slip and fall. Her body was exhumed. And just days before her husband lays claim to a $4 million
fortune, the case cracks wide open.
Was there water in the bathtub, Chris Spargo?
SPARGO: There was some water. It`s not certain how much there was, but there was some water in the bathtub at the time. Yes.
GRACE: OK, Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, Madison Heights -- Dr. Morrone, is it true that a human, an
adult, can drown in just a few inches of water? You don`t have to be under water to drown?
[20:05:09]DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: All you need is enough water to occlude the airway, which would be a few inches face down.
That`s all you need.
GRACE: So if she slips and falls, hits her head, goes into that much water -- there`s a little water in the tub, according to Chris Spargo --
she potentially could die. And that would be natural causes, correct?
MORRONE: It would be natural causes if her slip and fall was all alone...
GRACE: An accident.
MORRONE: ... by herself and an accident.
GRACE: OK, now, here`s the thing, though, which is bothering me, Chris Spargo. Isn`t the blow to her head, the blow to Shele`s head -- if
this is an innocent slip and fall in the bathtub, why is the blow to the back of her head, and she`s face down in a little bit of water?
How is that? She got a blow to the back of the head, she falls backwards, and then, what, turns over? That doesn`t make sense.
SPARGO: Exactly. And that was a question a lot of investigators had, which is why they did not want her body buried so quickly.
GRACE: But the family refused. OK, Dr. Morrone, if she had fallen, slip and fall backwards, OK, is it possible that she falls in the water and
then turns over and drowns?
MORRONE: Not if it`s only a couple inches. That`s enough -- that`s not enough to be buoyant, to let her float. You need 18 inches for that.
GRACE: OK. So that`s a very subtle but important distinction, Dr. Morrone. It`s enough to drown in, but it`s not enough for her body to be
buoyant to make it flip over and be face down. And we know for sure the blow is to the back of the head. Is that right, Chris, Dailymail?
SPARGO: That is correct.
GRACE: All right. Rita Cosby, what can you tell me -- Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, WABC host. Rita, I want to understand something.
The husband in this case, Roderick Covlin, the father of the little girl -- when I was researching him, I looked up his job, his occupation, because I
know she`s a real business whiz. It says backgammon master. What is that? What is a backgammon master, and how do you make a living off playing
backgammon?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, he was making some money off it. He was head of the Backgammon Federation, but then was also a
money manager. But at the time, Nancy, he was unemployed.
And in fact, the most important thing, the day after that she was discovered -- remember, she was discovered in the morning by the daughter,
the 9-year-old daughter. That next day, she was supposed to meet with lawyers to cut off her estranged husband from getting to her $4 million
money. So there was a lot of money on the line. And she was paying all the bills.
GRACE: OK, let`s look at this timing because what you just said, Rita Cosby, is very important, the timing, the timing of the slip and fall, the
mysterious turn over, when as Morrone is telling us, there was not enough water in that tub to act as a buoy to turn her body over just enough for
her to drown. And that`s a very key and critical piece of this puzzle.
Now, Rita Cosby, back to what you were saying. I know she wasn`t getting along with her husband. I know they were estranged. I know she
was the one working. She was the one raising the little girl. And he`s the backgammon master. And I respect that. But what were you saying about
her meeting with the lawyer?
COSBY: She had lawyers that she was scheduled to meet with the next day, where she was planning to cut him off. She had already cut him off
from life insurance and from a whole bunch of other things, but was planning on cutting him off from her full estate. They were completely
estranged. He was living in an apartment across the hallway, but he did have a key to the apartment. But she told people he wanted an open
marriage and she wanted no part of that.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! An open marriage?
COSBY: Yes, an open marriage.
GRACE: He wanted an open marriage. Unleash the lawyers, Troy Slaten, Darryl Cohen. He wants an open marriage while his wife is paying all the
bills? An open marriage?
(CROSSTALK)
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, just because there`s some motive doesn`t mean that there was means and opportunity. And you know, it`s
not...
GRACE: I`m asking you about him wanting an open marriage.
SLATEN: With regard to the hit on the back of the head...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What?
SLATEN: With regard to the back of the head, it`s not impossible to think that somebody could hit themselves in the back of the head and then,
you know, sit up dazed for a second, and then pass out on their face and drown to their death.
GRACE: Whoa. Wait a minute. Wa-wait. Wa-wait. Put Slaten up again. Well, let me understand what you`re -- your scenario. So you`re
saying she`s sitting down when she hits herself on the back of the head?
SLATEN: She can slip and fall...
GRACE: Slip and fall.
SLATEN: -- hit herself on the back of the head...
GRACE: Back of the head.
SLATEN: ... and then pass out face-down into the water and drown and die.
[20:10:05]GRACE: Face down, sitting down. OK, let`s see a shot of that bathtub, OK? You showed me a claw-foot tub as a feature in this
luxury apartment building. All right, look at this. Slip and fall, you hit the back of your head on what? What?
To hit yourself on the back of your head in this bathtub, you`re going to have to be at that level. That`s, like, three feet off the ground. So
I`m going to let you stew on that that you just made up, Troy Slaten.
Darryl Cohen, did you hear this? He wants her to pay all the bills while he plays backgammon. He`s a world master in backgammon. And he
wants an open marriage. So she`s supposed to pay him for the benefit of him having other lovers? Is that -- that`s what his idea of an open
marriage is?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it seems to me, Nancy, that an open marriage has to be done by both the male and the female, the husband
and the wife. So if she`s willing and agreeing to do that, that`s her bad. His playing around, being a playboy...
GRACE: Nobody ever said she -- hold on. With me right now, a special guest. This is Shele`s Covlin`s lawyer. Some people call him flamboyant.
Some people call him over the top. But he`s won a lot of cases. And I`m talking about Dominic Barbara.
Dominic, thank you for being with us. I know it`s going to be hard, but I`m going to come back to you in a moment. Could you give me in a
nutshell -- did your client, Shele Covlin, ever agree to foot the bills while her husband pursued an open marriage.
DOMINIC BARBARA, VICTIM`S DIVORCE LAWYER (via telephone): Absolutely not. She wouldn`t do it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A so-called backgammon master is now behind bars, accused in the strangulation death of his wife, who had recently filed for
divorce and was cutting him out of her millions. Roderick Covlin faces murder charges after the body of his wife, Shele, was found face down in
the bathtub by the couple`s 9-year-old daughter.
An autopsy found Shele died from compression to the neck and the case was ruled a homicide. Shele was set to meet with her attorneys in just
hours to remove Covlin as a beneficiary to her $4 million will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 42-year-old`s house of cards came crashing down here at the metro north station in Scarsdale. Covlin stepped off a
train and was cuffed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the time of Shele`s death, the pair lived in separate apartments in this building on West 68th Street. They were going
through a bitter divorce. The couple`s then 9-year-old daughter found her mom dead in a bathtub.
For religious reasons, Shele was buried the next day, her death ruled an accident. But months later, her family had her body exhumed, an autopsy
was done, and the death was then ruled a homicide by strangulation.
When he was arrested, Covlin was on his way to visit his kids, now 15 and 9 years old, who live with his parents in a home in this quiet cul-de-
sac.
After six years of truly believing he was free and clear, living in this home in New Rochelle, convinced he was not a suspect in the death of
his wife, Shele, today Rod Covlin seemed dazed as he sat in a courtroom now charged with second degree murder. Shele`s sister, Eve, also listened as
the man who was once part of their family entered a not guilty plea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:35]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shele Covlin was found by her 9-year-old daughter face down...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead in a bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... his wife, who had recently filed for divorce and was cutting him out of her millions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he was arrested...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... for allegedly strangling his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This woman is found face down in the bathtub in her luxury apartment. Her 9-year-old little girl finds Mommy`s body. Amazingly, the
case cracks wide open just 60 days before her husband lays claim to a $4 million fortune amassed by her.
I`m going to go straight back out to Chris Spargo with Dailymail.com. Upon autopsy -- we know, Chris Spargo, that when she was found, there was
no visible injuries save for the blow to the back of her head. But upon autopsy, what was discovered?
SPARGO: After the autopsy, they found that it looked like she had been strangled and that was the cause of death. So it was quickly ruled a
homicide.
GRACE: You know, what I found was not that at all. It`s my understanding -- to Dr. William Morrone -- that while there were no signs
of either manual nor ligature strangulation, there was a bone broken inside the neck?
MORRONE: Here`s the way that works.
GRACE: OK.
MORRONE: We like to use the word pathognomonic (ph), which means when something is bad, there`s only one thing that can cause it. In the neck,
in the front and the anterior, you have a hyoid bone, kind of like a wishbone on a chicken, and there`s nothing that can break that except
strangulation pressure. There`s, like, no accident. The body`s designed to protect that area. It has to be assaulted to be broken. Pathognomonic.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting is that they now believe that she may have endured neck compression. That is not strangulation. That is not
a ligature strangulation. That is not necessarily an asphyxiation such as holding a pillow or cloth or material over the victim`s nose or mouth.
It`s pushing down on the neck? That`s what I`m gathering by compression, the word compression. What is neck compression, Dr. Morrone?
[20:20:10]MORRONE: Neck compression means that the cartilage and the bone of the neck structure forces an air opening. And when you pressurize
that area of the neck, it`s like pushing down on soft pasta. You crush it. Otherwise, the cartilage and the bone keep that part of the neck open. And
that`s an assault on the body that would break those bones.
GRACE: OK. So Dr. Morrone, if it`s neck compression versus strangulation, then how would a neck compression death be effected without
leaving any bruises on the outside of the skin for the police or the daughter to see?
MORRONE: And here`s why the religious beliefs are important in this. If you`re rushing to prepare a body according to faith standards for
burial, you may not observe enough things closely to see these things. And in a proper autopsy, that would have been determined within 24 hours of the
accident. And if the body was embalmed, those areas tend to show bruises.
GRACE: She was never embalmed. She was never embalmed.
MORRONE: Exactly.
GRACE: That`s contrary to orthodox Judaism -- no embalmed, got to be buried within three days. But what I`m saying -- back to my original
question -- is, they`re not saying strangulation. They`re not saying ligature or manual. They`re not saying asphyxiation. They`re saying
compression to the neck.
How do you get, Dr. Morrone, a neck compression death without any bruises on the neck?
MORRONE: The body needs vital forces and chemistry to develop, to show bruises. And if you rush in a burial, you don`t have that time. It
doesn`t develop. She died -- she was suffocated because she didn`t get air, but the actual method was neck compression -- was...
GRACE: Got it.
MORRONE: ... a violent assault or weight on the neck compressing the esophagus.
GRACE: With me is Shele`s lawyer, the famed attorney Dominic Barbara. Dominic, what is your theory on the mode of death, the cause of death?
BARBARA: I believe that what occurred was he strangled her. And I think that Dr. Morrone, who I deeply respect, is correct that there may not
have been enough time for the body to show the bruises, which is what the homicide cops said originally to me.
However, you also have to -- if I can just add one more point -- you have to remember that after this incident, he beats up his children, after
she`s dead, and his own mother, who`s living with the children, call the police and say, My son is violent, crazy, beating the children and beat his
father up. This is his father!
I think that was the icing on the cake, and then maybe some day, you`ll talk about his girlfriend, who cooperated with the police, I`m told.
That I don`t know personally.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:30]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities have arrested a man for allegedly strangling his wife in the bathtub just hours before she was set
to cut him out of her estate worth millions. The body of Shele Covlin was found by her 9-year-old daughter face down with her head under water.
With only a cut on the back of her head, cops initially thought Shele died by accident. But after exhuming her body, the medical examiner
determined she was strangled. Shele`s body was found the day before she was supposed to meet with lawyers to cut her husband, Roderick Covlin, from
her $4 million will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is Shele`s lawyer, Dominic Barbara. Dominic, thank you for being with us. Do you believe that the husband,
Roderick Covlin, knew she went to go meet with you, meant to go meet with lawyers about cutting him out of the will? Do you think he knew that?
Wasn`t he living in the apartment across the hall?
BARBARA: He only was put into -- Nancy, he was only put in the apartment across the hall during the divorce. We put him there to get him
out of the apartment. We had been in court many times. There was one incident where he went crazy in court and threatened me. The man was out
of control.
And the saddest part of all is she was a very, very sweet, special person as a mother, as a daughter, and as a parent.
GRACE: You`re seeing Dominic Barbara from CBS News. So in a yes/no, Dominic, do you think he knew that she had gone that day or the day before
to get him cut out of her estate?
BARBARA: Yes. But it was going to be...
GRACE: You do?
BARBARA: ... two days later.
GRACE: OK.
BARBARA: Absolutely.
GRACE: Now, how did you find out that your client, who was going to get a divorce ultimately, was dead?
BARBARA: Well, we were in the middle of the divorce case. And I received a phone call from her family telling me what had happened, and I
immediately flew back from Florida, where I was on a vacation, and met with everybody. And it was tragic, very tragic.
GRACE: Now, you stated earlier that when you heard Shele was dead, you immediately said, He did it. He went ahead and did it.
BARBARA: I`m sorry. I said it on the phone to the family, and I got ahold of the homicide cops who were at the apartment and told them, This
guy`s nuts. He killed her. And they -- by the way, they were very much in favor of the autopsy. Only the family, who are, by the way, particularly
fine people also -- they have other children.
They`re very religious orthodox Jews. And I don`t think they wanted to know the truth because of their grandchildren. But when it happened and
they found out, I guess -- (INAUDIBLE) relieved that the truth finally came out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: After 33-year-old mom of three Jessica Padgett vanishes on her break at work at Duck, Duck Goose child care, Jessica`s body discovered in
a shallow grave on the property of her own stepfather. Stunning details emerging. The young mom of three was targeted for sex postmortem?
Translation, people believe the young mom was molested after she`s murdered. And did the perp video it? Tonight, stunning new developments.
[20:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say her killer is her very own stepfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with shooting and killing his stepdaughter, Jessica Padgett, inside his Allen Township home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have sex with her dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then hiding her body on the property.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dan Holtzman, news director, WAEB. Dan, thank you for being with us. I want to take it back to the beginning. She was
working that day at Duck, Duck Goose day care. And it`s my recollection that she said she had to go fax something or transmit something. And the
fax or the transmitter at Duck, Duck Goose wasn`t working. How did that happen?
DAN HOLTZMAN, WAEB: She did have to -- she needed to send a fax, and her stepfather and mother`s home was nearby, just a few minutes away. So
she told co-workers it was the Friday before Thanksgiving that she was going to be going to run an errand, send a fax, and then she was coming
right back. And she never made it back. No one saw her alive after that, except, allegedly, the defendant.
GRACE: Now, take a look at this location. It`s near Duck, Duck Goose. The Dollar General. What part of this scenario did that parking
lot play in unraveling this, Dan?
HOLTZMAN: Well, the defendant Gregory Graff, his story broke down in a hurry when surveillance from a nearby gas station and other businesses
indicated he wasn`t where he said where he was.
GRACE: What did he say?
HOLTZMAN: I`m sorry?
GRACE: Where did he say he was?
HOLTZMAN: He claimed he wasn`t home when Jessica arrived at his house to send a fax. That broke down. He indicated that he was taken by a
neighbor somewhere that gave him a ride. The neighbor refuted that. And surveillance from a nearby gas station showed he wasn`t where he claimed he
was where he said he went to pick up some lunch. Those three things started to unravel his story pretty fast.
GRACE: Dan Holtzman joining me, WAEB. And right now, I`m being joined by a special guest, John Morganeli, he is the North Hampton County
district attorney. John, thank you for being with us.
JOHN MORGANELLI, NORTH HAMPTON COUNTY DA: Well, it`s great to speak with you, again, Nancy.
GRACE: John, I`ve never, never gotten over, first the disappearance and then the discovery of the body of Jessica Padgett. Because this woman
epitomized a good mom to me, working hard, hard, hard to try to support her family. When did you realize the stepfather`s story wasn`t hanging
together?
MORGANELLI: The Pennsylvania State Police got involved in this investigation the day after, the local police started the investigation on
Friday, November 21st, 2014. By Saturday morning, when I first got apprised of what was going on, I then directed the Pennsylvania State
Police to come in and take over the investigation, which they did. And I would say pretty quickly after that, as they interviewed him the first time
and tried to put the pieces together, over that weekend, it was pretty clear that the information he was providing was not correct.
GRACE: You know, what`s so disturbing about this whole thing is this is Stephanie`s own stepfather. He`s married to her mother. Okay.
Jessica`s stepfather married to her mother. So I`m sure, joining me right now is Jim Wilkins, close friend of the victims, who led the search efforts
for her. So I`m sure, Jim, when Jessica goes home at lunchtime to fax this fax, she thinks nothing of it that her stepfather`s there. Did he insert
himself into the search effort for Jessica?
JIM WILKINS, FRIEND: Yes. He inserted himself into several of the searches that went on over a five-day period while we were looking for
Jessica.
GRACE: In what way? What did he do during his searches?
WILKINS: He would join in on the searches. We would go out and do various grid searches looking for Jessica. And he would kind of hang in
the background. He`d drive around in his truck, hang up posters and stuff like that. Was never fully engaged, but always kind of seemed to be there
in the background.
GRACE: Okay, Dr. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist, that is way beyond my understanding. I`m just a J.D., okay. So here`s a guy that we now suspect
of killing his own stepdaughter, the mother of several children, in order to have sex with her dead body. And he`s out --
SANDERS: Nancy --
GRACE: Taking part in the search effort.
SANDERS: It`s unthinkable, it`s disgusting, it`s appalling. And then he`s trying to cover his tracks by looking like he cares about her. But
he`s really just a sick man, who is supposed to be her father. A father- like figure. Not someone who is going to molest her and hide her body. This man needs to be thrown in jail and the keys tossed into the river.
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Stacy Newman joining us. How did it emerge, Stacy, that he had actually killed her in order to have sex with a dead body? How did
that emerge?
NEWMAN: Well, that`s the creepy part to this story. It all comes down to the videotape. And it`s our understanding this is a six to seven-
long video, very graphic. I believe that`s where prosecutors got their motive.
GRACE: Okay, Stacy. I almost wish I hadn`t even asked you the question. To John Morganelli, the North Hampton County district attorney.
John, to me, this case screams death penalty. Is there a legal loophole?
MORGANELLI: Well, you would think so. But under Pennsylvania law, it does not qualify as one of the 18 potential aggravating circumstances that
would make a first-degree murder case a capital case. It does not fit any criteria. And therefore, although it is a first-degree murder case in my
opinion, that`s what we`re asking the jury to return, it does not qualify as a death penalty case in our state. And I`ve tried, you know, at least
seven or eight death penalty cases. In fact, my last two trials were death penalty verdicts. So you would think this would qualify, but it doesn`t.
GRACE: Oh, man. I mean, this is a real mind bender, John Morganelli. And you`re a heck of a trial attorney. You`ve had great success. Had he
ever come on to her, made advances to her that she had not told her mother about?
MORGANELLI: We do not have any such evidence.
GRACE: So it was all about having relations with her dead body. Now, John Morganelli, if he had attacked her in life and then killed her, would
that qualify?
MORGANELLI: Yes, that would be an aggravating circumstance of a homicide committed during the course of another felony. In that case,
potential rape or sexual assault.
GRACE: Okay. Unleash the lawyers. Troy Slaten, Darryl Cohen and of course, John Morganelli is with us, the elected DA who is prosecuting this
case and thinking murder one. Okay. Darryl, come on. You used to be a prosecutor. Please, don`t give me some jaded defense answer. The father,
the stepfather kills his stepdaughter to have sex with her body, a dead body. And that`s not a death penalty case? I mean, I believe Morganelli,
I believe him, because he`s got such a sterling record. But that`s not right. If that is the law, then the law is an ass.
COHEN: Nancy, you`re absolutely right. It is not right. But let me say this, this case screams that not guilty by reason of insanity.
GRACE: Oh, please.
COHEN: Or guilty, but insane. That`s all it could be. Anybody who would do all the things he did and make sure he had a video --
GRACE: A pervert.
COHEN: Not guilty by reason of insanity, guilty but insane.
GRACE: A pervert does not equal insanity.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:00]
GRACE: A star high school football player ejected, thrown out of the game after a winning touchdown because he, the football player, says a
quick prayer after scoring. This comes on the heels of a Seattle coach suspended, suspended from work for praying alone out on the field after
football games. What happened to the First Amendment?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pedro Banda (ph) says he had just made a touchdown and pointed to the sky to praise God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just put my hand to my face mask, looked up and I pointed to the sky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After that, he says he was ejected from the game at (inaudible) for excessive celebration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s see exactly what this football player, Pedro Banda (ph), did. He`s a senior at Daistar (ph) high school in El Mirage, Arizona.
Watch this. Here is the play. Here he goes. He kisses his hand and points up to the sky.
Liz, let me know when I get Father Edward Beck on from the Sunday mass. Oh, I`ve got him right now. Father Beck, thank you so much for
being with us. Father Beck from the Sunday mass, also joining us will be Nick Fish, the national program director of American Atheists.
Liz, let me know when Mr. Fish joins us. Father Beck, I understand from a recent Pew report that America is now even less religious than it
has been in the past. Could you explain to me why this young boy was thrown off the football team, thrown out because he said a prayer after a
touchdown? Help me, Father.
FR EDWARD BECK: Well, if that`s the reason, Nancy, I think it`s ridiculous. They`re claiming that`s not the reason, that they
misinterpreted what he was doing, calling attention to himself and it wasn`t necessarily a prayer, it was unsportsmanlike. So if that`s the
case, I guess that`s the argument they`re going to use. I haven`t heard them say that the reason is because he was praying or pointing to God.
They didn`t really accept that as a justification for what --
GRACE: That`s what he`s saying. Liz, do you have his interview for he explains exactly what happened. The interview of the high school
football player thrown out. Let`s hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I scored and I was running to my brother, which was also on the field, and I just put my hand to my face mask. And I
looked up and I just pointed to the sky. I don`t get to play my senior year in our playoffs, where our school hasn`t had a winning record or been
into the playoffs in over 25 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hasn`t been in a playoff in 25 years. Justin Freiman, wasn`t that touchdown the winning touchdown?
FREIMAN: That`s right, Nancy. That was the winning touchdown. And as you see, just after that touchdown, he kisses his hand, he points up at
the sky, next thing you know, he`s off the field.
GRACE: Nick Fish joining us, the national program director of American Atheists. Mr. Fish, what is wrong with what Pedro Banda did?
[20:50:00]
NICK FISH, AMERICAN ATHEISTS: Here is the problem with talking about this in the context of praying. He wasn`t thrown off the field for
praying. He was thrown off the field because he got a second unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. It`s hard to say --
GRACE: What is the second -- what was the unsportsmanlike conduct, the second one?
FISH: The second one was him pointing up in the air.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, hold on. I still have a question, Mr. Fish.
FISH: Yes?
GRACE: What is wrong with pointing up to the heavens? What`s unsportsmanlike about that?
FISH: So there is nothing necessarily wrong about this, but we have to look at the context. A player scores a touchdown and points up in the
sky. I think any referee looking at that, in this case, that`s exactly what happened, looked at it and said, you`re drawing attention to yourself.
The referee doesn`t know that a person is praying. They shouldn`t have to make that judgment call.
GRACE: Excuse me. Wait, wait.
FISH: Yes.
GRACE: I still don`t get your drift. I don`t understand what you`re saying, what is wrong or unsportsmanlike about what he did.
FISH: Well, that`s something for the referee to make the judgment call on. The rule says that you can`t draw unnecessary attention to
yourself, and in the judgment of the referee, that`s exactly what he did.
Now, you know, looking at this, was he praying? The person doesn`t know. The referee has no way of knowing that. This is not about his First
Amendment rights. This is about everyone playing by the same rules. And if a person who wasn`t praying put their hands up and held it there for a few
seconds, if they would get a flag while not praying, then I`m sorry, he`s got to play by the same rules as everyone else.
GRACE: OK. Let me understand your thought on separation of church and school.
FISH: Sure. Separation of church and school has been a well- established president in the Supreme Court. We can`t have teachers praying with students, we can`t have coaches leading prayers. That creates a
really bad environment for people who do not participate in the majority religion, which too often is Christianity. They are having religion forced
on them -- and that`s not--
GRACE: Why do you say it`s too often the majority? Why is it too often?
FISH: When I say too often, I mean most of the time, the fact is, that most people in this nation are Christians, and so when a coach is
leading a person --
GRACE: You said too often. Too often there is a majority of Christians.
FISH: Too often meaning when a person is praying, a coach is leading prayers, too often it`s explicitly Christian prayer. We don`t want anybody
getting religion forced on them. If they were talking about hey, do a good job, play fair, that would be great.
GRACE: Mr. Fish, can you not see that he is being persecuted?
FISH: He`s not being persecuted.
GRACE: Because he said a prayer and pointed to the heavens.
FISH: They had no way of knowing he was praying. This is not about Christian persecution. This is about everyone playing by the same rules.
GRACE: That`s exactly what I would expect an atheist to say.
FISH: So, Nancy, I`m going to surprise you a little bit and tell you I think every student has a right to pray. What they don`t have a right to
do is break the rules and say oh, no, wait, I was prying, it`s okay. People have a right to pray in school. That has not changed. We don`t
oppose taking away people`s right to pray in school. We don`t have a problem with students praying. What we have a problem with is teachers
forcing prayer onto students.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pedro just made a touchdown and praised God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I looked up and pointed to the sky.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After that he was ejected from the game for excessive celebration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Troy Slaten and Darryl Cohen, first to you, Troy, what happened to the First Amendment?
SLATEN: It`s there, but it is not absolute. You have a right to free speech and you have a right to free exercise of religion but it`s not
absolute. Authority is like --
GRACE: You said that twice in a row.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- the First Amendment is not absolute. For instance, you cannot run into a theater and yell fire and cause people harm as they try
to run out. But the First Amendment has never impinged upon the freedom of religion.
COHEN: Nancy, it`s not impinging on the freedom of religion. It looks like when I look at it, he`s saying I`m No. 1, and what he did is not
the way it appeared.
GRACE: I can tell you this, Darryl, to get a winning touchdown there at the end after 25 years of not even getting in the playoffs sounds like a
miracle to me, Father Beck.
BECK: It looks like discrimination because we see athletes doing this all the time. Why would we assume that`s not what this student is doing?
We see them do it all the time. They bless themselves or they point to the sky. Why suddenly is he calling attention to himself rather than praying?
I don`t get where that judgment is made here.
GRACE: I`m on your side, Father Edward Beck.
Let`s remember American hero, Texas Deputy Constable Jeffrey Radford. Killed in the line of duty. Military police officer, Vietnam vet, Bronze
Star, National Defense Service Medal, law enforcement ten years, two years Bell County. Parents Emmett and Florence. Brother Bryan, sons Jeffrey and
Andrew. Jeffrey Radford, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And
until then, good night, friend.
END
