Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Investigation Shows Bomb Cause of Crash of Russian Passenger Plane. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 04, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Former CIA, Bob Baer saying he is not at all surprised that ISIS could pull something off like this, which you would point out would be the biggest terror attack since 9/11. You are surprised.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I'm surprised because this is the Holy Grail. And believe you, terrorist groups have been trying to do this sort of thing for many years, since 9/11. They haven't been able to pull it off so far. So of course, it's now a surprise that ISIS perhaps the ISIS affiliate potentially in the Sinai may have actually pulled off this terrorist attack.

BALDWIN: On messaging, another piece from Barbara's reporting, another U.S. official said the Intel is based upon monitoring of internal messages of the terrorist group. What does that tell you?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, it tells you that there's very specific intelligence the United States has got here related to communications inside ISIS. Have they possibly got wind of some kind of ISIS video in the works that may be released at a certain point? If this was indeed ISIS they're going to make a huge propaganda noise about this. There is going to be a video. I mean, you could see them put out a three-hour video. I mean, this would be the most significant terrorist attack since 9/11, bigger than anything by far that they have managed to do before.

BALDWIN: And you are surprised they could pull this off. Stay with me. Mary Schiavo is with me, CNN aviation analyst, former inspector general of the U.S. department of transportation.

Mary, I mean, how will this affect every single one of us in terms of airport security, not just overseas but worldwide?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it will affect worldwide, and I will go back in history, after Pan Am 103, everyone knows about that because the plane was of course headed to the United States. But there was a second one. And after Pan Am 103, four groups took credit for the downing of that plane. And then nine months later in September, a second one went down but out of a different airport, Pan Am 103 was Frankfurt and Heathrow in London. And then the second was a French airliner or out of Africa. So the problem now for the world, you know, the aviation nations of the world is to figure out what they are gunning for next and who really of the groups that are taking credit was responsible for it. So it's a huge security problem, but it will have a chilling effect. People will be very jumpy for good reason. This is quite devastating.

BALDWIN: The UK came out strongly talking about an explosive device specifically. Phil Black is standing in London with me.

And I want you, Phil, to just fill us in outside of 10 Downey Street, coming out of the prime minister's office today. This was a strong statement days after this happened, which would certainly jive with what we're hearing from U.S. intelligence.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke. What's really notable here is the way the British government has communicated this. It's not through background briefings through officials. It's through a very clear, carefully worded public statement directly from the prime minister's office in which they said earlier today that because of information that has come to light, they're not saying which information yet. They have developed this concern that the aircraft may well have been brought down by an explosive device.

Now, it still counts very carefully. It's not with absolute certainty. They're not prejudging the investigation that is still ongoing. But for a statement like this to be worded with language that is still as strong as that, well, it wouldn't have come unless the British were pretty sure or had very strong reason to believe this was in fact the case. It's an especially concern for the British government because there are five airline that's fly directly between Sharm el-Sheikh and the United Kingdom. It is a very popular holiday destination for British people. There are a lot of people there now. There is more who are planning to go.

At the moment, all of those airlines are now grounded. They're not flying directly under the orders of the government here until an assessment is carried out on the ground in Sharm el-Sheikh. And the British government says it has its own people on the ground there now at that airport trying to determine whether or not it is safe for those planes to fly. Because what they're concerned about is, if a bomb, an explosive device did bring this aircraft down, then somehow that bomb got onto that plane. What they want to be very sure about is that could not possibly happen again, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Phil Black, thank you so much in London for us.

Again, major story breaking here. According to U.S. intelligence suggesting that this crash, this Russian passenger jet, was taken down by a bomb, either planted in baggage or elsewhere on the plane, either by ISIS or an ISIS affiliate. We are about to hear from the U.S. state department on this huge story. Stay with me. More breaking news after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:34:08] BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Here is what we know. Our correspondent at the Pentagon Barbara Starr has broken this story wide open here. According to the downing of that Russian passenger plane over Sharm el-Sheikh, the Sinai Peninsula there in Europe. So according to her sources, U.S. intelligence suggesting that that plane came down because of a bomb planted on board either in somebody's bags or elsewhere, planted by ISIS or an ISIS affiliate. The person familiar with this investigation saying there is a definite feeling it was an explosive device planted in luggage or elsewhere. And, to add to that, they don't believe this U.S. Intel, they don't believe the explosive device was designed actually to get past airport security procedures, passenger screening, et cetera. Rather, it's believed whoever was behind it used what they're calling a conventional explosive device and took advantage of lax security at the airport or perhaps there was someone on the inside.

Let's go quickly now to the U.S. state department. Our correspondent Elise Labott has been grilling the spokesperson there, John Kirby. Here's that exchange.

[15:40:12] ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So you said that this is a very routine procedure that would prevent employees traveling into an area where there was a plane crash. But you're cautioning everybody not to jump to conclusions. I mean, I think that, as Justin said, we have some reporting that says that there is reason to believe that, you know, regardless of who was responsible there was some -- and the British have said -- type of explosive device on the plane. So can you say that that is why you instructed personnel not to travel to the Sinai?

JOHN KIRBY, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I think there were several reasons why. Again, it's not uncommon for us --

LABOTT: It is pretty common -- uncommon.

KIRBY: No, it's not.

LABOTT: It's pretty uncommon just because there is a plane crash to suggest to personnel not to travel to that area unless you have reason to believe that there was some type of malevolence owe lens involved.

KIRBY: There has been over time and you know, Elise, there have been over time extremist concerns in the Sinai. It's not new that there have been concerns about extremist activities in and around the Sinai. That's not a new development. In light of this plane crash, our embassy made the decision as it is their responsibility to limit or restrict in this case U.S. government employees from traveling to the Sinai. And I think until we know more, I think that's the prudent thing to do. Why wouldn't you do that?

LABOTT: I think it's the prudent thing to do, too. But then you're saying not to jump to conclusions. But it sounds as if even though you haven't reached an actual final conclusion and the investigation is still going on, that you are leaning into the idea that extremism could have been involved.

KIRBY: No, absolutely not.

LABOTT: Otherwise, you would not -- that is very uncommon, John, to instruct personnel not to go to an area of a plane crash. KIRBY: I can appreciate that you don't agree with me, Elise.

LABOTT: I've been covering the state department for 15 years. I know every time you instruct employees not to go somewhere, and I assure you it's very uncommonly.

KIRBY: I'm not disputing your vastly higher intelligence than mine.

LABOTT: I didn't say I was of higher intelligence but I have a great memory.

KIRBY: I'm not disputing your lone institutional memory or the fact that you have more experience at the state department than me. What I am disputing is you are contention that we issued this security warning because we strongly believe there was a certain cause to this crash, you know, a la, you know, some sort of terrorist activity. Just not the case.

Hang on a second. Just not the case. They did the prudent thing. They do what our posts do around the world every time there is some security concern, even when, especially when, we don't know exactly why something happened. In fact, that's even more reason to restrict movement. You don't want people going into potential harm's way because God forbid you're wrong and you let them go. And there is something more to it than you thought.

LABOTT: It sounds as if you think there is something more to it.

LABOTT: We don't know. Because we don't know, we're doing the safe thing.

LABOTT: You do know.

KIRBY: How do you know we know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the reasoning perhaps that, look, there have been concerns about extremist activity in the Sinai before and no tam resistance march for U.S. airlines not to fly over it and then something like this happens and you don't know the reason why. Is that not a combination of existing threat --?

KIRBY: That's exactly right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- and an unknown led to this?

KIRBY: I think -- yes, that's exactly right. There's a lot of unknown here, a lot of uncertainty. There have been long-standing security concerns about the Sinai. And it's precisely because we don't know what happened that we're exercising --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because the British are now saying --

BALDWIN: All right. That was a back-and-forth you didn't see here. But that was our global affairs correspondent Elise Labott back and forth there with John Kirby at state talking about those extremism concerns that have been in existence there in the Sinai. So when we come back, we will talk to Michael Weiss (INAUDIBLE) about

those concerns and also more on what potential ISIS affiliates could be in the Sinai Peninsula there in Egypt and this conventional explosive device that U.S. intelligence say was used, not sophisticated, conventional explosive device.

More on our breaking story after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:12] BALDWIN: We are reporting on what could be the most significant terrorist attack since 9/11. U.S. intelligence is now saying that they believe this Russian passenger plane was taken down over the Sinai Peninsula out of Sharm el-Sheikh airport because of ISIS or an ISIS affiliate planting a bomb either in baggage or elsewhere on this plane killing everyone onboard.

I have lieutenant general Mark Hertling. He is now another voice who is joining this discussion here.

And to you, you know, we have been talking about the Sinai. You just heard the state department spokesperson, you know, alluding to concerns of extremism there for quite a while. But when we talk about it could be a potential ISIS affiliate who are the groups? We have heard about the Sinai as referred to as the badlands, but who is there? Who could be capable of this?

[15:50:00] LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's a group called Williet Sinai (ph), Brooke. And they are (INAUDIBLE) of another organization called Ansur bi al-Maki (ph). And they are trying to link themselves with ISIS as an affiliate. They are trying to prove themselves to ISIS. But that's not saying that they are the ones who actually did this. They certainly have done a lot of damage in the last two years or so. They are becoming increasingly strong in terms of their approach. An element of that group fired on an Egyptian tank on September 11th and destroyed it with a coronet missile. Prior to that they fired a coronet missile on a ship in the gulf there. And also allegedly damaged some equipment and also hurt some people.

The multinational force and observers are in that region. And there has been an increase in violence that they have had to address toward the Egyptian army. It would not surprise me Sharm el-Sheikh is certainly a lax security airport.

BALDWIN: Have you been through that airport, general?

HERTLING: I have.

BALDWIN: You have.

HERTLING: And as your reporters have said before, this is an airport where a lot of tourists come in. And if there are five British flights per day, the prime minister of the UK is sending a team there to check the security. That's a prudent move on his behalf. But that's not saying that a bomb was on the airplane. Also, you know, Barbara being told by an intelligence official that it

was more than likely a bomb does that not mean U.S. intelligence agencies are saying that's what occurred. I personally believe it was a terrorist act, but it would have to be confirmed or denied to me based on evidence on the ground. And we are a long way off from getting that kind of evidence, I think.

BALDWIN: Michael Weiss is nodding along with you. CNN contributor and co-author of "ISIS inside the army of terror" here.

And you're listening to the general when we think about as well he pointed out five flights, British flights come in. We don't know if this was an inside job or someone who infiltrated lax security. But bottom line could have chosen a British plane, chose a Russian plane. With a conventional explosive device, not sophisticated.

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right. And also designed then not to try and circumvent whatever security protocols they had. Which does indicate, again, assuming this was true that it was a terrorist attack, it probably was an inside job. And that shouldn't surprise necessary. I mean, look, a lot of the people who populate the upper and middle (INAUDIBLE) of the Islamic state in Syria and Iraq come from state institutions, right. They work for the Assad regime in Syria or the Iraqi government in Iraq. It stands to reason somebody from the transport ministry or even just a private airline company sympathized with ISIS or one of these terror groups and may have defected.

In Russia, since this was a Russian plane I think it bears mentioning in 2004 black widows, that is to say female suicide bombers boarded two Russian passenger jets and blew them up in midair using a chemical (INAUDIBLE). The way they got onboard at least according to the consensus view here, they bribed their way, corrupt border guard, Russian officials took some money and let without security check.

BALDWIN: Let them on the plane.

WEISS: So if it can happen in Russia, it can certainly happen in Sharm el-Sheikh. But again, and I think the general is quite right to stress this hasn't yet been confirmed. And I'm quite keen to see, you know, how this sort of develops in terms of U.S. intelligence consensus about this.

BALDWIN: And what Vladimir Putin would do in Syria. Let's get to that.

WEISS: Yes.

BALDWIN: Hit pause. Quick break. More on breaking news after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:57:44] BALDWIN: All right. We are on our breaking story. This is huge. According to our reporting Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, new conclusions have made that reporting our U.S. intelligence is indicating that the Russian passenger jet that came down over the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt just a couple days ago was taken down because of a bomb planted on board that plane by ISIS or by an ISIS affiliate.

So let me go to Nic Robertson. He is our senior international correspondent standing by in St. Peter Petersburg, Russia.

Nic, what more are you learning?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: From a Middle East intelligence or Middle East source briefed on intelligence matters, he tells me it appears that a bomb was placed onboard that aircraft. Also that there had been concerns in the region about the security in Sinai, concerns there for about the airport at Sharm el- Sheikh. This is something that was being felt in the region, this coming from somebody who's briefed there on intelligence matters from the Russians here. All we're hearing so far nothing coming from Russian officials here.

CNN being quoted now by Russian state media saying that there was a bomb aboard this aircraft. It is interesting thus far after an hour or so of this information being public that no Russian official has yet knocked it down. The main aviation organization here in Russia says it is the responsibility of Egypt to put out this sort of information. And it is illegal for Russia to go ahead and brief this type of information about an investigation before Egyptian authorities do it themselves or give the Russians permissions -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. Nic Robertson, just quickly following up with you. In the 30 seconds I have, your source alluded to concerns in the Sinai. Were there concerns specifically about the airport about security there?

ROBERTSON: The rising volatility, the lack of security in the Sinai peninsula, the vulnerability of the airport, the lack, if you will, of awareness or the Egyptian authorities were not paying attention if you will to the warnings that they were being given from elsewhere in the region.

BALDWIN: All right. Nic Robertson, thank you so much. St. Petersburg, Russia.

Thank you so much for being with me. Stay right here with CNN. Jake Tapper takes it from here. "The LEAD" starts right now.