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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

GOP Debate; Rick Santorum Interview. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 11, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:20] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

First up, the race to the White House and the fight night in Milwaukee that ended without much of a knockout punch, I've got to say. This fourth Republican debate was more about policy than personality, no name-calling, no mudslinging, no significant personal attacks. The candidates actually debated the issues ranging from raising the minimum wage to spending money on the military. Here is what you may have missed last night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Every time we raise the minimum wage, the number of jobless people increases.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you raise the minimum wage, you're going to make people more expensive than a machine.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would like to make a comment. You've already made two comments, John, it's my turn.

MARIA BARTIROMO, MODERATOR: We have more questions for you, Governor Kasich, coming up.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well -

BARTIROMO: We have more questions for you, Governor Kasich.

KASICH: Well, at some point -

BUSH: I got about four minutes the last debate. I'm going to get my question right now.

KASICH: I - I -

NEIL CAVUTO, MODERATOR: Are you worried your campaign, which you've always said, sir, is bigger than you, is now being hurt by you?

CARSON: Well, first of all, thank you for not asking me what I said in the tenth grade. I appreciate that.

I have no problem with being vetted. What I do have a problem with is being lied about. KASICH: We have grown -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor, you -

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You should let Jeb speak.

KASICH: We have grown - we have grown -

TRUMP: No, it's (INAUDIBLE).

I don't have to hear from this man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: Believe me.

BUSH: Thank you, Donald, for allowing me to speak at the debate. That's really nice of you. I really appreciate that.

RUBIO: You know, it took the telephone 75 years to reach 100 million users. It took Candy Crush one year to reach 100 million users.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, my mom is here, so I don't think we should be pushing my grannies off cliffs.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The secret sauce of America is innovation and entrepreneurship.

MARCO: Rand is a committed isolationist. I'm not. I believe the world is a stronger and a better place when the United States is the strongest military power in the world.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All right, Marco - Marco, how is it conservative - how is it conservative to add $1 trillion expenditure for the federal government?

BUSH: Back to the question of what we are dealing with in Iraq. When we pull back, voids are filled.

TRUMP: If Putin wants to go in, and I got to know him very well because we were both on "60 Minutes." We were stable mates. And we did very well that night. But you know that. But if Putin wants to go and knock the hell out of ISIS, I am all for it 100 percent.

FIORINA: I would not be talking to Vladimir Putin right now, although I have met him as well, not in a green room for a show but in a private meeting.

CAVUTO: By all means it was a very riveting debate. Business issues can be - can be riveting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And right after the debate, our own Dana Bash caught up with the two frontrunners, Donald Trump and Ben Carson, to ask them how they thought they did in round four. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: I didn't speak as long as people who were willing to butt in, but I just tend not to be much of a (INAUDIBLE).

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Why is that, Dr. Carson? Why not? I mean, you know, this is an opportunity for you to show your stuff and to get in there and mix it up and a lot of your competitors did that. Why not?

CARSON: It's just not who I am.

BASH: But aren't you concerned about fading into the woodwork at a big debate like this?

CARSON: No. No, because I am who I am.

TRUMP: I thought it was great. I thought the moderators were eloquent. I thought the questions were really, really on point. And I thought it was a great night. I really thought it was - actually the world is elegant. It was an elegant evening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He thought the debate was elegant, as he put it, but that is not quite the word being used to describe this very fiery exchange between Trump and Ohio Governor John Kasich over immigration. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We either have a country or we don't have a country. We are a country of laws. They're going to have to go out, and they'll come back, but they're going to have to go out, and hopefully they get back.

KASICH: For the 11 million people, come on, folks, we all know you can't pick them up and ship them across - back across the border. It's a silly argument. It's not an adult argument. It makes no sense.

TRUMP: All I can say is, you're lucky in Ohio that you struck oil. That's for one thing.

KASICH: All I'm suggesting, we can't ship 11 million people out of this country. Children would be terrified and it will not work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

TRUMP: OK. OK. Some people out to call it truth (ph).

KASICH: (INAUDIBLE) -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, you've had a - can I - let me just -

TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE) built an unbelievable company worth billions and billions of dollars. I don't have to hear from this man, believe me. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. - Mr. -

TRUMP: I don't have to hear from him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I do believe those were two very loud boos coming from the audience, but not for these two. These two are two Republican strategists, Tara Setmayer and Cheri Jacobus and they're live with me now to try to sort of pick apart what we saw happening there, ladies.

[12:05:03] You know, you never want to be booed if you're a candidate during a debate, but it doesn't seem to matter much for Donald Trump when that happens, although this was very pointed. This was very specific about a - a touch point, immigration, for the Republican Party. I'll start with you, Cheri, is this going to be a chasm that is irreparable for the Republicans, immigration?

CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don't - I don't think so. I mean people - people do care about border security, but what Donald Trump is proposing and the big promises he's making are not realistic. So John Kasich, you know, while a lot of people panned his performance last night in other areas for good reason, he actually provided a very valuable service last night by injecting a dose of reality into this debate. After months and months of these big promises, big beautiful wall, we're going to send them out, then we're going to bring them back in without any idea how to pay for it, how to execute this, who's going to be doing it, what agency, what - what military - is it going to be military? And so for Governor Kasich to step forward to inject that dose of reality, again, difficult, some people don't like it, but I think thinking Americans and Republicans are going to say, you know, the guy's got a point.

BANFIELD: You make such a good point. And then you look at where he's standing on the stage -

TARA SETMAYER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes.

BANFIELD: And it's way out on the periphery where his poll numbers are. And that's my point, Tara, yes, what John Kasich says is legitimate, it's plausible, it's understandable, you cannot put millions of people, let's just say, on trucks and trains and ship them out like that. But people like what they hear from Donald Trump, and that's why I ask about the chasm.

SETMAYER: Well, I think it's because people are so sick and tired of the entitlement of the illegal immigration lobby that's saying, like, listen, we should be here. We have rights to be here. We should get benefits. We should get health care. We should let our kids go the school. And the American people are going, wait a minute, you don't have a legal right to even be in this country. Who are you to sit there and make demands? And I think the American people are tired of it. Their wages are being -

BANFIELD: But how tired? How tired? SETMAYER: Obviously tired enough to allow someone like Donald Trump,

who is proposing something that's completely not possible, with mass deporting people. Not possible. We already know that. But - but enough for the fact, enough to tap into GOP primary voters who are going, well, you know what, it's either - the pendulum has swung so far the other way that the tough talk Trump is offering, that's what's propelled him into the spotlight in the first place.

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE) the bad or the good?

SETMAYER: Well, I don't support Donald Trump in the rhetoric, but I understand why there's frustration of that.

BANFIELD: OK.

SETMAYER: But the winner of that exchange was Ted Cruz, who came in and levelled the playing field and said, wait, hold on here, we need to talk border security. And if it were, you know, if there were journalists and bankers that were coming in biding down your wages, maybe people would have a different point of view. And just because we want to be law abiding and enforce our border security in this country, we're not (INAUDIBLE) -

BANFIELD: Hey, Cheri, of course, jump in.

JACOBUS: Well, and border - border security matters.

BANFIELD: OK.

JACOBUS: But that's separate than (INAUDIBLE) deportation. But, again, if this focuses Washington on border security, then that's a net gain.

BANFIELD: Let me get you on another issue, and that the Trump-isms that emerge from every podium where he's live. And last night was no different, although much more muted than what we're normally used to seeing. This exchange that came right after I think Carly Fiorina had jumped in on a few other candidates' comments and maybe taken time that wasn't allotted to her, not something the other candidates didn't do. They all did it. But this was the reaction that Trump gave her. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: Ronald Reagan was strong, but Ronald Reagan didn't send troops into the Middle East.

FIORINA: And Ronald Reagan walked away at Reykjavik. He walked away. He quit talking -

PAUL: Could I finish my time?

FIORINA: When it was time to quit talking.

PAUL: Can I finish with my time?

TRUMP: Why does she keep interrupting everybody? Ah, terrible. PAUL: Yes, I'd like to finish - I'd like to finish my response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK. That was boo number two. Everybody did the interrupting, but Donald Trump chose to use that tone and those words about Carly Fiorina. Once again, does that cause a problem for him with women, or women voters, or is he made of Teflon when it comes to these things?

JACOBUS: Look, she - she emasculated him in an earlier debate when he appeared to be sexist. She was not the one that was doing the most of the interrupt and he wasn't even the one being interrupted. So for him to do that, it made him look petty and small.

I do want to say one other thing about this. Last night he sat there, as did Ben Carson, but Donald Trump sat there and basically did not seem to be aware of the details of the issues being discussed. He was like a child on that stage around the grown-ups and this was supposed to be his wheelhouse. Remember, this was about the economy. So for the only things for Donald Trump to really be known for and remember for from the debate was his snide remark to Carly Fiorina and some of the other comments that he made rather than on substance, which on the economy, again, his big issue, I don't think it's going to hurt him with his core supporters, but he certainly did not gain supporters last night.

SETMAYER: Well, this is where the ceiling discussion about Trump's support is - comes up, because Cheri's absolutely right about that, not only was Donald Trump exposed, so was Ben Carson. When people start to think and evaluating who they really want to occupy the White House, who actually needs to make these decisions like on foreign policy, which is one of the primary responsibilities of the presidency, it was clear that Donald Trump and both Ben Carson were completely out of their league on those issues and, frankly, I was surprised that Donald Trump was so muted on the issues of the economy. You know, everyone had 90 seconds. He never used his full 90 seconds. Someone pointed that out and I thought that was interesting.

[12:10:18] BANFIELD: Neither did Ben Carson. He also turned it back (ph) a lot (ph).

SETMAYER: Right, because they don't have any depth and -

(CROSS TALK)

JACOBUS: Yes, and on the heels of the undercard debate was so substance - filled with substance.

SETMAYER: Yes.

JACOBUS: And then you had these two guys and then Rubio comes in and he's subtenant.

SETMAYER: Yes.

JACOBUS: It was - BANFIELD: I was missing Chris Christie. After I saw -

SETMAYER: Yes.

JACOBUS: Yes, it was a stark contrast.

BANFIELD: An undercard. I missed him on the big stage and who knows -

SETMAYER: We'll see if he makes it to the next one.

BANFIELD: Who knows what happens because the numbers do shift after each of these, you know, contests, if we want to call it that.

Tara Setmayer, Cheri Jacobus, thank you both. Nice to see you, as always.

JACOBUS: Thank you.

BANFIELD: I'll have you back again.

The next Republican debate, by the way, is going to be right here on CNN Tuesday, December 15th. Mark your calendar.

And we can talk all we want about who won the debate, who lost the debate, who got the headlines. But what ultimately matters is winning the primaries and caucuses which kick off in less than 12 weeks. And this guy knows a thing or two about it because he won Iowa last time around. Yes, Iowa, even though he was at the bottom of the polls at one point. Watch out for Rick Santorum. He's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:20] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a real legitimate debate between Chris and Bobby. Someone who says we need someone who can win in a blue state. And Bobby says we need a real principled conservative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That is Rick Santorum, the former senator and two-time presidential candidate in the so-called GOP undercard debate in Milwaukee last night. And if you were watching it, you know that he followed that applause line with a detailed accounting of his conservative, bonafide in the blue state of Pennsylvania. I don't need to replay it because the candidate is here with me live now from Manchester, New Hampshire.

Thank you, senator. Good to see you.

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks, Ashleigh. Good to be with you.

BANFIELD: OK, so here is my big question for you as we try to digest all of the television hours that we watched last night. There were eight candidates on that big stage and a lot of critics have come out to say today that helped. That allowed a lot of talk time, a lot of deep diving into policy and not so much mayhem on the stage. But you weren't one of them. So I want your assessment of the protocol.

SANTORUM: Well, I've said from day one that the protocol should be based on who's running legitimate campaigns for president, and who's doing well in the states that matter, which is Iowa and New Hampshire. And they should have debates that include everybody on the stage. And I would not do it, you know, 12 or 14 people. I would divide it up, have two primetime debates. I mean if one primetime debate is good, why isn't two - why aren't two primetime debates good and have seven and seven or six and six, whatever the number is. Have it - either randomly assigned or take the - if you're going to use national polls or state polls, take the even numbers and put them in one debate, and put the odd numbers in the another. The idea that the media - that the media is going -

BANFIELD: Who gets to attach to the Trump factor, senator, you know, because he says it, lots of people say it, a lot of eyeballs are going to these debates because of the Donald Trump factor. Who gets to be on the stage when he's on the stage?

SANTORUM: Well, you know what, the eyeballs that really matter are the eyeballs that are voting in Iowa and New Hampshire. And I can guarantee you that the high percentage of caucus goers that are watching these debates, they're probably watching - they watch both of them. I have no doubt about that here in Iowa and New Hampshire. And that's, right now, what really matters.

And I think everyone's sort of ignoring this, that somehow this is a national primary. It's not. And you mentioned on the way in to our interview as you were breaking, you know, I was at 2 percent in the national polls when I won the Iowa caucus. Let me repeat that, I was at 2 percent in the national polls when I won the Iowa caucus. So the idea that national polls have any relationship as to who's going to win in these critical early primaries, it just doesn't. And for the media to create an undercard when one does not exist is, in my mind, just weighing in and trying to decide this election and letting voters - instead of voters deciding this election.

BANFIELD: Yes, you know, I love that you brought that up because I think a lot of people have been shaking their heads at the uniqueness of this cycle. And I think actually if we throw the polls up for you alone, it speaks volumes to what you're just saying. But here we are with the most recent CNN/ORC poll, the Iowa Republicans choice for a nominee, and you are down there at an asterisk at this point. And this is critical because this is Iowa.

If you take those numbers to New Hampshire, you do better there. But just getting out of the asterisk. You go up to 1 percent in New Hampshire, senator. And I don't have to tell you, I've never run a race in my life, but if you don't do well in Iowa or New Hampshire and you're at the bottom of the pack early, most people say it's not go- time anymore. How do you sort of assess these numbers as you look to the next couple of months? SANTORUM: Well, if you - if you look at the Iowa polls and the New

Hampshire polls, you know, our Iowa poll numbers are I think the real (INAUDIBLE) were around 2 percent. You know, there's a margin of error in these polls of 6 percent. So you're going to - if you're at 2 or 3 percent in the polls, you're going to have a zero or you're going to have a four or five. And those are just the realities of polls - of polling.

We're running a great campaign in the state of Iowa right now. I'm here in New Hampshire here today. We've got a campaign going on here too. We're building out our grass roots base. We're getting on all the ballots across the country. You know we had two candidates who are - who have been on the stage at one point, they weren't on the stage last night, who didn't even file in Alabama and Arkansas. So they're not even on the ballot. And why should we - those are criteria that matters.

We had two guys that were on the stage with me last night who didn't file any delegates in the state of Alabama. So even if they win the state of Alabama, they're not going to get any delegates. That's a - that's a serious thing for - for the networks and others to look at. Are you filing delegates, are you getting on ballots, as opposed to these specious national poll numbers.

[12:20:12] BANFIELD: Let - let me ask you this because I - it is so sort of confounding sometimes just looking at how this race has been - has been playing out. You're a formidable candidate. No one will argue with you on that. You won the Iowa caucuses. You finished with the second highest number of delegates back in 2012, 261 delegates. You won a total of 11 state in your last race and you were polling in the mid-30s at your highest. You're good at your job when you run for office. So here we are, four years later, sir. What has changed? Have you changed? Has your platform changed? Or has this field really morphed and made it "Alice in Wonderland"?

SANTORUM: Well, I think it's a - it's a combination of thing. I mean after the last election, I didn't stay engaged and involved in the political process. I had to go out and earn a - earn, you know, my keep for my family. I have seven kids, several in college, a special needs little girl who's got a lot of issues that we've got to deal with. And so I went back and become a dad and worked with my - you know, on the private sector for my family. It really wasn't until, you know, late last year that I gave - I gave real serious consideration about doing it. And I knew that I had not been in the public eye, that I was to be starting over again. I'd be out at the bottom of the polls. But I was perfectly OK with that. I - you know, I felt like, if we were going to run this race, we were going to run it based on the issues that I thought I could bring this country together to help working families. And that's what I talked about last night. That's what I - I wrote a book this last year called "Blue Collar Conservative" and talking about how we can get Americans back to work. I'm at a manufacturing facility here today in New Hampshire. I was at one yesterday. I mean I think we have a message that's a great message for America and I'm willing to, you know, start at the bottom and work my way up again and I knew I would have to do that. Yes, this race has been different. A lot more candidates in the race. Obviously, a - BANFIELD: And unusual candidates. Senator, you've got to agree, I mean we've got -

SANTORUM: Some unusual candidates, yes, sure.

BANFIELD: We've got Carson. We've got Trump. Upside down is right side up. Stabbing someone is apparently an accolade if you can, you know, if you can atone for that. And offending people on a regular basis, you know, gives you a boost in the polls. And that's really where I'm getting at, senator. It is very different this cycle and we can't figure it out and I want to know if you can figure it out?

SANTORUM: It is. Well, here's what - here's what I know is that over 50 percent of the people that voted for me in the Iowa caucuses four years ago decide in the last three days. A third of them decided - actually decided at the caucus. And so the idea that national polls and who's doing well two and a half months in front of a primary, I can tell you, it's going to change when people start to get serious and their - the reason we did well four years ago is that we went out and I - I did the, you know, the boring stuff, like I did last night, which is talk about issues, talk about vision, talk about workers, talk about families, talk about how we're going to make things better.

I don't go attack anybody. I don't make any snide comments. I don't have any flamboyant past. But I - you know, I think the people of Iowa saw someone who actually thought they could actually sit in the Oval Office and be president of this country. And in the end I think that's what - that's what voters both here in New Hampshire and Iowa are going to do.

BANFIELD: Well, we would love to have you back, especially since we've got 50 percent undecided, and, you know, you'd have to pull in over half of those and I would like to see if you can pull off a repeat.

SANTORUM: Well, actually -

BANFIELD: Make it quick. I got to - I got to go to break. What is it?

SANTORUM: Yes, actually, in Iowa, "The Des Moines Register" poll said 88 percent of Iowans were still undecided. It's a long, long way between now and February 1st.

BANFIELD: Right. And you've done it before. We'll see if you can do it again.

SANTORUM: (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: Senator Santorum, nice to have you. Thanks for being here.

SANTORUM: Thank you. Go the ricksantorum.com if you want to help. Thank you.

BANFIELD: I'll do that in the break. Ok, thanks so much, sir.

SANTORUM: Thanks. BANFIELD: Coming up in the next hour, my colleague, Wolf Blitzer, is going to talk to the communications director for Jeb Bush's campaign and Republican candidate George Pataki.

Coming up next, a head shaker for sure. An eight-year-old, eight, charged with the murder of a one-year-old. Is a child that age even capable of comprehending what murder means? Of what he's doing maybe when he's doing it? And where were the parents? That's the other shocker in this story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:28:41] BANFIELD: A heartbreaking and stunning case out of Birmingham, Alabama. An 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the beating death of a one-year-old baby girl. All of this while both of those children, their moms were out clubbing. Yes, clubbing.

This is the baby in question, Kelci Lewis. Apparently she wouldn't stop crying on the night of October the 10th. And that's when police say the eight-year-old boy viciously attacked her. According to a police statement, quote, "the one-year-old suffered from severe head trauma, as well as major internal organ damage, which ultimately led to her death."

You are more than likely wondering where was the babysitter when all of this was going on. Where was the sitter? That's where this gets even more heartbreaking. There was no sitter. There were no moms, no dads, no sitter. Police say those two moms left those children home alone along with four other children, and every single one of those children was under the age of eight. Again, home alone. Birmingham Police have never charged anyone this young with murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. SEAN EDWARDS, BIRMINGHAM POLICE SPOKESMAN: An eight-year-old really being able to process or even have that much maybe evil in his heart to kind of do something like that. The sad part is you had an adult mother here who had the audacity to leave her one year old in the custody of several other children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:30:11] BANFIELD: That baby's mother, that he was referring to, this is her.