Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Examining a Mother's Manslaughter Case; Indictments Handed Down in Waco Biker Gang Shootout; Fox Lake Police Officer Suicide Update. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 11, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LT. SEAN EDWARDS, BIRMINGHAM POLICE SPOKESMAN: The sad part is you had an adult mother here who had the audacity to leave her one year old in the custody of several other children.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[12:30:12] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: That baby's mother, that he was referring to, this is her, Katerra Lewis.

She is also facing criminal charges at least one anyway, manslaughter. And it is something her attorney is disputing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EMORY ANTHONY, KATERRA LEWIS ATTORNEY: When you read the manslaughter statute, it deals with someone's action as far as acting in a heat of passion or act in a reckless manner. And not someone allowing some other person to act in a dangerous manner.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Joining me now HLN Legal Analyst and Defense Attorney Joey Jackson and California Prosecutor and former Defense Attorney Wendy Patrick.

All right, you two, that lawyer makes a very good point. Your reckless actions are what manslaughter is all about and not someone else's reckless actions. But can you see, and Joey I'll begin with you. Can you see a case to be made for leaving your child and your child doing something that ends in death?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: A hundred percent. And here's why, the defense lawyer...

BANFIELD: Manslaughter.

JACKSON: Absolutely, the defense lawyer makes a very good and credible argument. But let's look at what reckless means.

Reckless means that you consciously disregard the risk that your behavior could cause some type of calamity. When you leave a child of one years old, 1-year-old out, right, and you go out, it's 11:00 at night, so you might presume that the child may sleep through the night, they're 1-years-old, may knock the presumption be that the child will wake up and may not the presumption be when they do wake that there are other people in that house were not responsible who were children. And may not the presumption also be that in light of that they could be harm to subject to some danger.

That's the definition of recklessness. And hence I see although the mother it did not happen at her hands, it happened because she created the condition to allow it.

BANFIELD: So she allowed the speeding car to go racing through that house...

JACKSON: That's the analogy.

BANFIELD: She caused a reckless situation. So in respect if that's what they're thinking, those prosecutors then why aren't thinking that that 8-year-old was a tool of a mother and not somebody as it was said has evil in his heart. He's 8.

WENDY PATRICK, CALIFORNIA PROSECUTOR: Right and that's one of the things that really breaks your heart about the story, doesn't it. You've got kids killing kids.

Now, this is not unprecedented by the way to have children as young as 8 being charged with homicide. In fact there's lots of cases through the years. And it breaks our heart every time we hear about something like this.

But back to the issue, was she properly charged with manslaughter? Creating a reckless situation or actually causing a killing recklessly as opposed to intentionally or with reckless indifference for human life which is another way to get to second-degree murder instead of manslaughter can certainly be found under circumstances like this.

In fact remember all the different kinds of child endangerment statutes we have, where you have parents that are intentionally placing their children...

BANFIELD: No one was charged with recklessness when it comes to endangering these children. No one was charged with child neglect. The mom of this alleged killer was not charged with anything yet.

PATRICK: But remember we're so early on in the process. And I share your sentiments, Ashleigh. We always wonder at the beginning, why not? Why we should deal when charge? What about the levels of culpability of the other parent? Now we get this, was there anybody else in the house?

So we're so early on in the process that it remains to be seen if in fact there are charges that are properly brought against the other mom or anybody else involved in the process.

JACKSON: Two quick points. Number one is, the fact is, is that I do see the other mom is responsible how do you split hairs and make that distinction. I don't think you can make the distinction. And to your issue of why not child endangerment because the endangerment resolve itself and while you neglected the child. Something happen as a result of you not being there for the child, someone's dead here.

And so manslaughter is the appropriate statute to charge in this circumstance.

BANFIELD: You know, and you just think about these circumstances guys, a crying baby and an 8-year-old who doesn't know how the quiet this baby, does an 8-year-old even know, maybe that, you know, that behavior had been modeled to this year 8-year-old, when they're loud, you get hit.

PATRICK: The baby is led by kids.

JACKSON: That will b e resolved in juvenile court that's what'll happen here. Not adult court, that's what'll happen with the 8-year- old.

BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, Wendy Patrick, thank you.

PATRICK: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, when the shooting finally stopped nine people were dead. A grand jury has just decided to indict 106 people because of it.

But there are 71 cases still out there, no resolution, the pitfalls of prosecuting the Waco biker shootout coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:38:57] BANFIELD: A Texas grand jury has indicted 106 people six months after a terrifying shootout at a biker gathering.

You may have seen this video, it's a CNN exclusive and it shows the utter chaos that unfolded at the Twin Peaks Restaurant back in May in Waco.

By the time this whole melee was over you can see people shooting and running. Nine people were dead, 18 were in the hospital and police were picking up 480 different weapons stashed all around that scene.

Dozens more indictments are expected down the pike. And guess what? They cite organized crime activity based on the underlying felonies of aggravated assault and murder.

Our Ed Lavandera joins us now from Waco, also with us HLN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson.

So Ed, get specific on these charges for me. And how the biker's attorneys are weighing in on it?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we may have been able to see the specific indictment yet, just exactly what the district attorney here announced late last night, the indictment of a 106 people. We understand that all of the indictments are essentially worded the same. [12:40:06] And as you mentioned the specific charge that they faces, engaged in organized criminal activity which depending on each of the biker's background could mean, they could face up from 5 to 99 years in prison.

So these are extremely serious charges, and the district attorney says they are not done yet that there are still nearly 80 other cases, that are still pending, and that the grand jury here in Waco hasn't gotten to, the Waco police department which is been highly scrutinize and criticized in each actions in this case says "The results of the indictments from the Grand Jury are part of the process to insure justice is met to those who committed criminal acts in our city. The Waco Police Department will continue to work as part of the investigation to insure a complete and thorough cases are presented to the District Attorney."

So great deal of controversy, and we have chance to reach out to several different bikers and lawyers of representing bikers and a lot of the language and reaction we've got to them quite choice words that you can't repeat on television.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

LAVANDERA: But many of them are very disillusioned and critical of the way this process has been carried out in these indictments while many of them expected to hear something like this, still very angry at the entire process.

BANFIELD: All right, Ed, hold that thought for a minute. I want to bring in Joey with respect to the last comment and I think I know what the word was, are you bleeping kidding me?

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: Are exactly what those words. I'm not defense attorney but I would like to be chance for this case.

JACKSON: You know, first a reminder, it's an indictment and an indictment is a mere accusation, the grand jury need not be unanimous, and in light of that, we should also know that in the grand jury, the prosecutor is the judge, jury, and executioner.

So when an indictment is not surprising, now we get to the business of proving up your case, that's what the prosecutor has to do. Now they were very, very smart that is the prosecution to charge it under the theory of organized criminal activity, why -- yes it is because now you simply have to establish that there was a conspiracy, an agreement, a commitment between three or more people to engage in criminality. And if you get that, you need not establish who pulled the trigger that killed the person who is victim number one or two or three.

Everyone -- exactly, everyone goes down. But now if you are the defense, look at the video tape, the video tape that's being played. Should the people who are hiding under the chairs, scrambling and running away, should they be charged with any type of crime? Are they committing anything? Are they running for their lives like anyone would be in a scenario and circumstance such as this?

So the prosecution, if they want convictions going through need to establish the criminality of those involved and that they were not merely present.

BANFIELD: You got to have about 177 different e-mails saying "I want to take out some guys this weekend." It's going to be really, really hard to get.

Ed Lavandera, I have to leave it there, thank you for that. When you see those indictments, come on back and give us more of the color that's contained within. And Joey Jackson as always thank you, appreciate it.

Coming up next, the case that shocked Fox Lake, Illinois, A police officer staging his own suicide to make it look like a murder and my next guest is the man who did the investigation, the coroner who got the case and said he knew right away something wasn't right.

And he will explain how he knew. He's going to join me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:47:28] BANFIELD: We were all. I think it safe to say stunned by the revelation that a Fox Lake, Illinois police officer staged his own suicide to make it look like he was murdered in the line of duty. Not only that, but that he had been stealing thousands upon thousands of dollars and laundering it, too. But the fallout from Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz's death is not over yet.

Last night the Fox Lake village board met to see how the community will move forward and then according to affiliate WLS they met behind closed doors to address threats of litigation.

In the meantime, the Lake County Coroner who pretty much saw the red flags right away is coming forward. After he, himself, you know, was sandbagged with a bunch of criticism by the investigators because he raised the notion of suicide early in the case. Remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE FILENKO, CMDR. LAKE CO. MAJOR CRIME TASK FORCE: I'd say more the word for that would be irresponsible. We don't deal off of assumption. We don't work the cases off of assumptions. We work cases off of the facts (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That was the commander, not happy with this leak that it might be suicide, because that's what the Coroner saw. Later, we learned that the authorities had not ruled out suicide. Lake County Coroner Dr. Thomas Rudd joins me live now from Chicago.

Dr. Rudd, thank you so much for being live with me. I just want to ask you right off of the bat, what was it that stood out so early on in that case that came into your office? DR. THOMAS RUDD, LAKE COUNTY, ILLINOIS CORONER: Well, first of all, the fatal gunshot wound which was between the first and second ribs was located two inches under the bulletproof vest which meant that the gun had to be very close shove under the vest for that shot to occur, so that was very unusual that meant it was close range.

Secondly, the officer's uniform was in roll call shape. Meaning that the shirt was in proper position, and the pants were in proper position, the bulletproof vest was in proper position which indicated there was no struggle and that was confirmed when we did the autopsy, were there was no defensive wounds on the arms, the hands, the chest, the legs. So, the manner of death in my eyes was not clear cut. I needed more evidence. I needed the gunshot residue, and the DNA, I it fingerprints, I need the psychosocial history. So, as far as I was concerned all three categories of manner of death were open. Suicide, homicide or accident.

[12:50:03] BANFIELD: And you were giving the benefit of the doubt, I am guessing right away, because I mean, who on earth would do this? Especially an officer of the law while searching had been going on and on for days for these three mysterious people, but ultimately did you have the gut feeling right away that you knew you had a suicide on your case, and did you have to deal with the backlash from his fellow officers immediately thereafter?

RUDD: Well, it depends on when you, what you mean by when we suspected suicide. Initially, no, we didn't suspect it, because we had radio dispatch call three individuals. The autopsy findings on the day that we did it, I could show you how it could be a homicide and I could show how it could be a suicide.

However, when we saw that the clothing was intact, we had to think that he must have been surprised. We didn't have initially really any idea within the Coroner's office as to the manner of death. The crime task force proceeded as a homicide, because of the radio dispatch.

BANFIELD: It's still so confounding just the notion that an officer would place a gun into the left-hand side of the vest. I've been trying to sort of mimic it myself and I'm having a great deal of difficulty coming up with how he thought it through and how he ultimately shot himself, but then was able afterwards to pull the gun out and toss it and still stage this suicide.

Dr. Rudd, thanks so much for being with us, and I appreciate you r time, and so sorry it is under these circumstances, the tragic story all around.

RUDD: Thank you for having me.

BANFIELD: Dr. Rudd joining us live this afternoon.

Coming up next, a plane crashes into Akron Ohio apartment building. The ensuing seen is horrific and it could have been so much worst. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:56:34] SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rico Abreu, was born with achondroplasia, into bone disorder that's the most common type of dwarfism, but hasn't quelled the race car driver's competitive streak.

RICO ABREU, RACE CAR DRIVER: I don't think my stature has affected, you know, my driving style or what I do on and off the racetrack and anything I've done I wanted to win.

GUPTA: And win he does. Abrue won nearly a quart of his races in 2014 and grabbed his first ever NASCAR victory in the July.

ABREU: I got the lead with a numerous laps to go and then lost the lead and again and got the lead back with. I've got 10 laps to go and ended up winning the race. Crossing the checkered flag when you win, there is not much more of a feeling than that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the celebration is getting ready to get under way as Rico crawls out of the car.

GUPTA: At just 4'4", Abreu has his cars adapted to fit his height, and wants to inspire others with dwarfism to find a way to do what they love as well.

ABREU: A lot of people come up to me and say how (ph) inspiring I am. I really feel that you can push yourself, you know, do what you love.

GUPTA: After all, on the racetrack, it's not about how tall you are.

ABREU: Everyone is the same size when they race, and it is just about having the biggest heart.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: A quick look at some of the other stories making news right now.

A judge followed a jury's recommendation, and sentenced a man with history of anti-semitic views to death for gunning down three people at two campus Jewish Centers last year. Frazier Glenn Cross shouted "Heil Hitler" in the courtroom right as the sentence was coming down. In this case, he represented himself, he's youngest victim was just 14 and headed to a singing competition when he was murdered along with his grandfather. Cross also murdered a third person later and not one of those people he set out to kill was Jewish, even though that was his intention. New details in the shooting of a Texas judge last week.

Authorities say a 28-year-old man has being questioned as a person of interest. He is right now in a Houston jail charged with murder in a separate and unrelated case. The judge in question in Austin was attacked on her driveway. Police investigators are pouring to her cases to see if she was targeted by someone perhaps she had helped send to jail. We now know nine people were kill when a small plane dropped out of the sky and then slammed into the apartment complex in Akron, Ohio, yesterday. The victims included the pilot, a co-pilot and seven employees from the Florida-based real estate developer that had chartered that flight. Remarkably, there were no injuries reported on the ground, and the FAA is still investigating the cause of this crash.

Thank you for watching, everyone. It's been good to have with us this noon hour. Stay tuned my friend and colleague Wolf Blitzer is going to take over the helm (ph) right now.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer it's 12:00 p.m. noon in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, wherever you are watching us from around the world, thank very much for joining us.

[13:00:07] We start at the campaign trail as the Republican presidential candidates get back to retail politics after wrapping up their forth presidential debate.