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Sources: C4 Mostly Likely Used in MetroJet Explosion; White Supremacist Plot Uncovered in Virginia; Trump Calls Debate "Elegant"; Interview with George Pataki. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired November 11, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:30:00] PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: And so it would be consistent with ISIS in Sinai to carry out the attack rather than the airport. It points away from the lone-wolf scenario, because it is difficult for an individual without connections to the terrorist outfit to obtain this military-grade explosive -- Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And, Matthew, there is a suggestion that the timing on the bomb may have caused the detonation in midair at 30,000 feet about 23 minutes into the flight. Here is the question. What if that plane had been delayed in takeoff? MATTHEW HORACE, FORMER ATF EXECUTIVE: If that is the case, it

wouldn't have mattered, Wolf, because if it is C4 as the explosive, it requires a blasting cap or the detonator, and so there has to be something to set it off, and if that is the case, it would have gone off on the gate or the runway. The altitude has nothing whatsoever to do with the blast if it is C4 and the detonator.

BLITZER: And once the NTSB and the investigators that are now invited get to the actual scene at the Sinai, and the Egyptian and the Russians and others, Matthew, have been there, how hard to have evidence of some sort of bomb out there among the debris?

HORACE: Well, you know, this cabin was compromised at a high altitude and so the physical evidence could be miles and mile miles throughout the scene, but however, the evidence of the wreckage, they can sift through the wreckage and identify trace explosives, and maybe not find the pieces of the timer or the detonator, but they will find something that will tell us more than we know right now.

BLITZER: And, Paul, there is reports that the ISIS leadership was calling for violence against Russia, and maybe the ISIS leadership in Iraq as well. What have you learned about that?

CRUICKSHANK: Wolf, on October 13th, the ISIS spokesman, Abu Annan (ph), a powerful group, issued a call of arms against the United States and Russia, urging fellow jihadists to target the United States and Russia, and the ISIS group within Sinai would have heard this loud and clear that is was a top priority for ISIS that Russia be targeted. ISIS presenting Russia as the co-equal enemy like the United States. So another perhaps, an indication that, perhaps another indication suggesting whether it is ISIS responsible here -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Because if it was ISIS, there is some speculation, Paul, that, yes, maybe Russia is the target, because of Russia's increasing involvement in the war against ISIS in Syria, but the other argument is that these ISIS terrorists hate the government of President el Sisi and they're trying to undermine tourist or other aspects of Egypt's economy. And so the real target was the Egyptian government here.

CRUICKSHANK: Well, if it was ISIS in Sinai, there would have been two targets, one, as you say, the Egyptian government to undermine that government and to topple that government, and how better to the that than to decimate the tourist economy, which is like 11 percent of the entire Egypt economy, but also they wanted to go after the Russians. They could have gone after the British charter jets that day, but they chose a Russian jet, and this is to designed to turbo charge the ISIS support in the global jihadi movement, because there is a lot of anger in the Sunni Muslim world for the Russians because of their support for the Assad regime.

BLITZER: And the U.S. officials are pleased that the Egyptian regime has allowed the American investigators to go to the scene and participate in that search as well.

Thank you both, Paul Cruickshank, Matthew Horace.

Still ahead, a race war plot in Virginia. Two men accused of being white supremacists are arrested. And now we will tell you what the FBI says they were planning to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:38:19] BLITZER: An alleged white supremacist plot is uncovered in Virginia. The FBI has arrested two men accused of plotting to bomb black churches and Jewish synagogues as a plan to start a race war in the United States. The FBI says it was given information through confidential sources and information and surveillance that the men were concocting allegedly a plan to kill a jeweler to begin with and then use the money from the jewels to, quote, "purchase land and stockpile weapons and train for the coming race war." Another man was arrested for conspiracy to commit a robbery.

Let's bring in Ryan Lenz, senior editor of the Intelligence Project and Hate Watch at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Ryan, thanks for joining us.

How unusual, how alarming are these alleged plots, these race war plots that seem to be coming forward nowadays?

RYAN LENZ, SENIOR EDITOR, INTELLIGENCE PROJECT & HATE WATCH, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Well, they are obviously alarming, and they are increasingly common. Earlier this year, at the Southern Poverty Law Center, we released a report called "The Age of the Wolf," looking specifically at the acts of violence coming from the radical right, and racist right, and what we found is from the period of 2009-2014, there was an act of violence carried out or thwarted from the radical right every 34 days. So unfortunately, this is very much a reality of the world that we live in now.

BLITZER: And we know that there are racists who hate African- Americans, and anti-Semites who hate Jews, but how unusual to have a group allegedly like these two guys who were just arrested by the FBI that go after blacks and Jews?

LENZ: Oh, it is not unusual at all. You know, lest we forget that not that long ago, Dylann Roof walked into the church in Charleston, South Carolina, with the plan to commit a horrible act of violence to carry out, and he didn't talk to anybody about it. These people are radicalized online, and carrying on the actions without any alert to the law enforcement, and it is quite common

[11:40:21] BLITZER: This criminal complaint that I read from the U.S. district court for the eastern district of Virginia, says that the two guys allege think were planning the shooting or the bombing of the occupants of black churches, and Jewish synagogue, and conducting violence against persons of Jewish faith and doing harm to one gun owner in the state of Oklahoma. Based on what you have learned in this alleged plot, how far along were they?

LENZ: Well, a lot is left to be learned from the particular plot. The men were arrested over the weekend, and the investigation as far as we know is still ongoing. Law enforcement is not talking about what they have said beyond what is listed in the criminal complaint, so I am assuming that much more will come out. We don't know how far along they were, but that is not necessarily the point. The reality is that the very idea that they were considering this is alarming enough. It starts some place. And thankfully, the law enforcement stepped in and a stopped this one soon.

BLITZER: How many time types of hate groups like this under surveillance by the FBI and other law enforcement as far as your information out there is concerned?

LENZ: Oh, there is no way I would know that. I know that right now, we listed 784 hate groups from last year, and that is down a little bit, is reflects that increasingly as the groups shrink, actions are taking place, or the people are bearing across the ideas online and in racism forums online. No way to monitor that, and no way to monitor what someone ascribes to or the ideology, and as if it is happening in their own home.

BLITZER: Has it gotten worse since President Obama took office, the hate out there? He is the first African-American president, of course?

LENZ: Without a doubt, it has gotten worse. Almost to the date, when President Obama was elected, hate groups in the United States skyrocketed. Last year, they fell by about one-fifth. But what that coincided with is a pattern of violence taking place from single or small groups of people. In this study that we released earlier in the year, we found that 74 percent of the violent incidents tracked between 2009 and 2014 were carried out by one person. If you include a group of people of one or two, that is a father/son or husband/wife and that goes to 90 percent of the incidents that we tracked involved this small group of people. Now, that is a particular problem for law enforcement, because it is very hard to infiltrate or to monitor a group of people that are conspiring to carry out the act of violence that you don't know that these people exist.

BLITZER: Ryan Lenz, of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Ryan, thank you for joining us.

LENZ: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: And up next, presidential candidate, George Pataki, is going to talk to us live about the debate that he missed last night, and the future of his campaign and more.

We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:47:51] BLITZER: So the candidates on the debate stage last night, they are insisting they won and that they did well. In what could be a story first, Donald Trump called the presidential debate, in his words, "elegant."

CNN's Jeff Zeleny had a chance to speak to him on the campaign trail, and the debate. Let's listen to this exchange that Jeff had with Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: You said it is a beautiful thing to watch the candidates dropping out one by one. With this debates in the books, time to go to more hardball against the other candidates, Ben Carson and the others?

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: Well, I think that it is going so well, and to be honest with you, I loved the debate last night. We got high marks on the debate, and I was very happy with the way it worked out. Every single poll, and the underlying poll, Drudge and everyone else had me winning the debate last night, but I don't know it is up to them if they want to drop out, they can drop out, but it has nothing to do with me, but I think that you will be seeing people dropping out.

ZELENY: Who is next?

TRUMP: I don't want to predict. I think that I know, but I don't want to predict. I mean a lot of people have to dropout, because they are not resonating, and they are very good people, but if you don't resonate, you have to drop out.

ZELENY: And what about --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: No, not at all, but she was interrupting everybody. And you know who interrupted Kasich, and what did I do with him? The same thing. I am glad that you are here. I said, let Jeb speak? Did I say that? You see, people forget. I said "Let Jeb speak" because he was interrupting Jeb. I said, "Let Jeb speak."

ZELENY: It is almost like you felt sorry for him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And in the background, it needs to be stronger?

TRUMP: No, you were nice to me this morning and said it was elegant and everything else.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And conciliatory.

TRUMP: Maybe I have to do that. Maybe that is the way I'm supposed to be.

ZELENY: Debates only or on the campaign trail?

TRUMP: No, no, not in the speeches, because people would be disappointed if I was that way. But during a speech, it is different, and during the debate, you have to give other people the chance to talk. In the case of Carly, she was interrupting a lot of people. And by the way, four people came up to me afterwards on the stage, and they say, thank you for what you did with Carly. I think that she is a nice person, no problem with Carly. But if you remember, I did the same thing with Kasich, because he was cutting off Jeb Bush. And I said, "Let Jeb speak."

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

TRUMP: I don't think I do have to be, but I want to show respect for the other people up there and I want to let them talk. It's their time to talk.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[13:50:31] BLITZER: Donald Trump, earlier this morning in Manchester, New Hampshire.

Coming up, my conversation with George Pataki, the former New York governor, a Republican presidential candidate. We'll talk about last night and moving forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:54:55] BLITZER: Welcome back. Joining us now to talk about the Republican contest, the former New York governor, George Pataki.

Governor, thank you for joining us.

Did you watch the two debates last night?

GEORGE PATAKI, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: I did, Wolf. It was interested and I hope it represented a turning point in the campaign.

BLITZER: Explain that because, in the past, you've suggested -- and I want to be precise -- if someone showed they could unite and lead the party, you would drop out. Did you see someone last night who could unite and lead the party? PATAKI: No, I didn't. But what I did see last night was a lot more

substance, a lot more talking about issues, differences on issues like immigration, differences like on issues concerning Syria, and the no fly zone. That's what I've wanted to see happen. I think when we get away from the theater of politics and the policy and the ideas of the candidates, things are going to change. Hope that's what the media and the candidates start looking more seriously at as we go forward.

BLITZER: You just heard Donald Trump say in that exchange he had this morning, if some of these candidates do not resonate, they should drop out. You didn't make the debate second tier, earlier debate last night. What do you say to Donald Trump?

PATAKI: You know, Wolf, it's impossible to resonate when you don't get your voice heard. That's the first item. I think the idea that the polling is based -- the debates are based on early polls, whether or not you're on the big debate or the small debate -- and by the way, you look at the media coverage, and again the first debate got virtually no coverage at all. It becomes about popularity, name I.D. I didn't have a reality show. I haven't run for president before. I don't have a brother who was president. I hope, though, last night did represent a turning point where it's about ideas and about your record and your vision, because I know I disagree with a lot of the things that were said there last night and I believe I could add a lot to the dialogue that the people would like.

BLITZER: What's the biggest disagreement that you feel you have? Where do you stand out?

PATAKI: Well, on the issues, first of all, Republicans have to embrace science. We never even talk about the environment, climate change, the fact the earth is getting warmer. And what are we going to do about it, ignore it and pretend it isn't happening, or are we going to embrace innovative next-generation solutions that will allow us to both grow the economy and deal with greenhouse gases? Everybody talked about their tax plan, and they all have wonderful tax plans. Not one of them in my view has the ability to articulate how they're actually going to get it done. And part of the frustration with Washington, you say all these candidates, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, they get elected and they go, I can't because this is in the way or that's in the way. 12 years, as you know, Wolf, I had a very Democratic legislature in the assembly and put in place reforms. Not just what is your plan but how do you intend to pass that plan? This is something that I think the American people would like to hear. We didn't hear it last night. I hope we do going forward.

BLITZER: There was some good divisions there, good substantive disagreements, for example, on immigration. You heard what Donald Trump had to say on the one hand, John Kasich, the Ohio governor, on the other hand. Where do you stand?

PATAKI: First of all, I think it's absurd to say we're going to put 11 million people on buses or trains or box cars and send them back. Not only that, what wasn't really discussed last night in any depth is Trump's idea is also to take American-born citizens, children, 9, 10, 11-year-olds who have never been out of this country, and deport them. That is not just unconstitutional, it is absurd. I didn't hear anyone on the stage say that his idea was unconstitutional and absurd. I did hear a lot of criticism of amnesty. And I understand that. I am for upholding the rule of law. But I don't think if you require people to come forward and perform community service, acknowledge they broke the law before they have a pathway to a legalized status that's amnesty. I would have liked to have debated that.

Yes, Wolf, finally, it was a good substantive debate. There were differences, but there are a lot of other differences out there that weren't articulated last night that I hope I have the chance to bring to the next table where the people are watching.

BLITZER: So just bottom line right now, Governor, you are still committed, you're going to stay in this race?

PATAKI: I'm in. I'm going to New Hampshire tomorrow and Friday, and beyond that we're going to continue to make the case. You know, I'm a realist, Wolf. I understand where I stand. At some point, either going to have to the resources or the opportunity through the media, opportunities like this -- thank you -- to make the case to the American people, or the path just isn't going to be there. But I'm not at that point yet, but a long stretch. I hope I never get to that point.

BLITZER: We'll continue to watch together with you.

Governor Pataki, thanks very much for joining us.

PATAKI: Thank you, Wolf. Great being on with you.

BLITZER: That's it for me. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For our viewers in North America, NEWSROOM with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

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