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The Immigration Debate; Sheryl Sandberg Asks Military to Lean In. European, African Leaders Meetin Malta Over Refugee Crisis; Starbucks' Cup Controversy. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 12, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] ROSS DOUTHAT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If you actually secure the border and have, you know, better sanctions for employers who hire illegal immigrants, you will have a slower rate of illegal immigration, people will go home and so on. The idea that you're going to send, you know, a large squad of people around to round up 12 million people is even from a restrictionist point of view unlikely and absurd. And, frankly, I think it makes sense for other Republicans to say so.

I don't know how -- you know, in the long run, I'm skeptical. This is a great gift to Hillary Clinton just because I think that this is the primary season, it's Donald Trump. I don't think he's going to be the nominee. And in the long run, I think this debate will be somewhat forgotten. But, obviously, if he has real staying power deep in the primary season then, you know, you're going to -- we're going to be talking about this if a long time.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Tara, do you agree, that this really won't help Hillary Clinton in the long run?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in the long run, if -- it depends on who the nominee is. So if the nominee is Donald Trump, then this absolutely helps her.

Listen, I'm in the business of where words matter. And when you start saying things like mass deportation force, I can imagine the ad campaign already. You know, they could do wonders with that. That's not what we want. I think when you talk -- when you start talking about the real coherent immigration plan of what to do here and we're talking border security, we have a deportation force. It's called ICE, you know. We already have these folks. We need to enforce the laws that we have already.

This idea of rounding people up as -- listen, I'm a hard liner on illegal immigration, but this is the -- this vision of what you're creating of that is a terrible image for the American people to see. And you can be frustrated and the GOOP primary voters are very frustrated with the level of illegal immigration and the lack of enforcement. The fact that President Obama has ruled by executive fiat to just disregard the law and it was struck down by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, by the way. So people are very frustrated by these acts of lack of immigration enforcement that it's feeding into this and Trump knows that but he has no depth when it comes to an actual policy whereas Rubio and Cruz actually do. And I think that's really where the argument's going to be had.

COSTELLO: OK. Well, let's talk about Rubio, especially Marco Rubio, because supposedly he's on the rise, Ross. He used to be, you know, for immigration reform back in the day. I'm not sure what he's about now. Are you?

DOUTHAT: No. No, I think Rubio was very happy during the Republican debate this week that he wasn't asked about immigration during the period when Cruz and Bush and all the others were arguing about it. I think that, you know, Rubio has streamlined and sort of smoothed out his immigration pitch to make it a little more appealing to conservatives. He talks more about enforcing the border. He talks more about the idea that, you know, any kind of reform to deal with illegal immigrants would be long-term and so on. But he hasn't come out with sort of specific new plan to replace the bill that he was part of crafting.

And this is -- this is -- look, this is his biggest liability as right now as a potential Republican nominee. I think he's got a relatively good path open to the nomination right now. But if it comes down to him and Ted Cruz and Donald Trump yelling about immigration, Rubio is going to have to -- you know, he's going to have to have some more detail and he's going to have to have a lot of finesse.

SETMAYER: Listen, immigration reform is the exact reason why Marco Rubio was not leading sooner in the poll, why he struggled with the Republican base, because they felt betrayed by him because he got into bed with Chuck Schumer and Dick Durbin and those guys during the immigration reform -- comprehensive immigration reform battle in 2013. And that did not ingratiate him to conservatives. They felt betrayed. But he has since had a come to Jesus moment apparently and has kind of denounced that tactic and taken a stronger position on immigration because he realized either he made the mistake that he made or that it was politically not viable for him to stay, you know, running around with Chuck Schumer. That's not going to go over well with GOP primary voters.

COSTELLO: OK.

SETMAYER: But I think the -- when you start to see the discussion between him and Cruz on this, that's going to be fascinating. I think we'll see more of that in December.

COSTELLO: OK. We're going to turn the corner now because I'd like to introduce a new segment. It's called "Dumb Stuff in our Political World." And there's plenty of it this time around, right? First up, Radio host Mark Levin talking with Donald Trump about Hillary Clinton's hair. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LEVIN, RADIO HOST: I don't know what her appeal is at all. Do you?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, she has a new hairdo. Did you notice that today?

LEVIN: That's called a wig.

TRUMP: Is that a wig?

LEVIN: I think it's a wig. Nothing personal. Look, I'm not against wigs. People can wear whatever they want.

TRUMP: Well, it's OK. It's OK. But, you know, I tell you what, it really was shocking to see it because, you're right, it must be -- it was -- it was massive. You know, her hair became massive.

LEVIN: You know you're going to get in trouble now.

TRUMP: I don't care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: In fairness, Hillary Clinton has also talked about Donald Trump's hair. So before we dive in, let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lot of people have said a lot of things about my hair over the years. So I do kind of know what Donald is going through. And if anyone wonders if mine is real, here's the answer. The hair is real. The color isn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:35:18] COSTELLO: OK, Ross, you were saying?

DOUTHAT: Democracy, right? This is -- this is what the American public wants. They want a serious in-depth debate about the hair styles of our candidates. And having Trump in the field gives it to them. You know, if it was just Hillary Clinton up against, you know, a sort of normal field of Republican candidates, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But thanks to Trump, we're really getting into the real issues. So we should be grateful to him.

SETMAYER: That's true. I guess this is another part of running for president. They got -- they went after Joe Biden for having hair plugs. So, I guess this is a common theme. But it's also part of the silly season aspect of what's going on in this election. And, unfortunately, Donald Trump has introduced that into this -- the discussion on more than one occasion. There's no shortage of silly things coming out of Donald Trump's mouth. But he's an entertainer. That's what he does.

COSTELLO: Oh, I have to leave it there. Ross Douthat, Tara Setmayer, thanks to both of you.

DOUTHAT: Thanks.

COSTELLO: Just a quick programming note for our viewers. Donald Trump sits down for a one on one interview tonight with Erin Burnett to talk about his strategy. Not his hair or Hillary Clinton's hair, but his strategy. You can catch all of that right here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a FaceBook COO brings her mission to the Air Force Academy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHERYL SANDBERG, FACEBOOK COO: Women and minorities face barriers that white men don't face. And the veil of silence pretending this doesn't exist does not make the playing field even.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, how did these Air Force cadets respond? Oh, you'll be surprised. That story after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:07] COSTELLO: Can an alpha male lean in? Secretary of Defense Ash Carter is counting on it. But after what I witnessed, I have my doubts. There is an all-out push to recruit more women into the military. Soon, most, if not all, combat roles will be open to women. And not everyone is happy about that. So the Department of Defense recruited Sheryl Sandberg, FaceBook's COO and feminist author of "Lean In," to open a dialogue about gender bias. Sandberg delivered a speech at the Air Force Academy. I was in the audience for that speech and sat down with Sandberg after. Let's just say her message on equality was not exactly met with open minds.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHERYL SANDBERG, FACEBOOK COO: I love being here.

COSTELLO (voice-over): FaceBook's COO Cheryl Sandberg on stage at the Air Force Academy. Thousands of cadets, the majority young men, seemed prepared to lean in.

SANDBERG: Women and minorities face barriers that white men don't face.

COSTELLO: At times you could hear a pin drop.

SANDBERG: And the veil of silence, pretending this doesn't exist, does not make the playing field even. For women in the military, there's a special challenge because you have to be tough enough to fit in.

COSTELLO: But as Sandberg leaned in further --

SANDBERG: I have never met a man who was asked, "should you be working?" I can't tell you how many times in my life I have been asked, "should you be working?"

COSTELLO: Some in the audience, both men and women, appeared uncomfortable. It came to a head after the speech in a Q&A session.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like even the work at home is so important and it can't be underestimated. So what is the ideal balance between that? And is it more important that it's equal or that the work at home is done as well?

SANDBERG: It's a great question and beautifully asked. The work at home is just -- the work at home -- the work at home is just as important.

COSTELLO: At times the crowd reaction resounded with skepticism. After Sandberg left the stage, a cadet leader scolded his classmate's behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can fix this problem. We can be worthy of respect. We can hold each other accountable and love on one another and treat each right and treat the people who take their time to come and care about us right, or we can try and get our friends to laugh at us (INAUDIBLE). The choice is ours. You're dismissed.

COSTELLO: I sat down with Sandberg and Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James.

COSTELLO (on camera): That was one of the most fascinating speeches I think I've ever seen from an audience perspective because at times it seemed like you were in the lion's den, Cheryl.

SANDBERG: I think there were people in the audience today who really believe that an equal world would be a better world, and there are people who believe that this is meritocracy and in a meritocratic system more men will naturally be at the top. And --

COSTELLO: Some men in the audience, though, they looked like they were physically uncomfortable during your speech.

SANDBERG: Well, societal change and cultural change is not always uncomfortable. Here's what we know. We know that women have 5 percent of the top jobs in corporate America. We know women make up 9 percent of the generals in the U.S. military. And that's not reflective of the population.

COSTELLO (voice-over): It's why the armed services partnered with Sandberg to create "lean in circles" or peer to peer groups that empower women and give men a way to lean in and support their female colleagues.

DANIELLE KAUFMAN, AIR FORCE CADET: This is something we don't regularly discuss both, you know, here at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as other colleges, other universities. It's something that society needs to talk about, not only in these forums, but in our classrooms, in our dorm rooms.

COSTELLO: The Air Force hopes opening a male/female dialogue about unconscious bias will attract more women and pave the way for more female cadets to choose non-traditional roles like fighter pilots.

[09:45:05] (on camera): Why don't they want to be pilots?

DEBORAH LEE JAMES, SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE: I think they don't see enough role models so it's a self fulfilling profess. We don't have enough in the role who are there today and there aren't enough role models for the young ones coming up through the -- through the line.

COSTELLO (voice-over): And it doesn't help when a U.S. Congressman and former Army Ranger questions the ability of women who do find the courage to compete. Steve Russell is demanding proof that three women pioneers who graduated from the elite Army Ranger school didn't get special treatment. In a letter to Army Secretary John Mchugh, Russell wrote, quote, "The training of our combat warriors is paramount to national defense. In order to ensure that the Army retains its ability to defend the nation we must insure our readiness is not sacrificed."

(on camera): So what do you say to those men who really think that women can't handle the job.

SANDBERG: The evidence shows otherwise. That when we have women and men in leadership roles, when we have women and men in fields, performance goes up.

Similarly there isn't a job out there that women can't do. And there aren't leadership that women can't take. We just need to help them get there.

COSTELLO (voice-over): But how?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During your speech, you could hear people who weren't accepting the facts, who weren't accepting the data behind things. How do you stand up and counteract that bias and that unwillingness to open their mind?

SANDBERG: Stereotypes are deeply -- they are just deeply reinforcing, and they are deeply reinforcing because of the way humans process information. The other thing to understand is that I'm not standing on this stage and saying that the white men in audience have biases that other people don't have. I want to be really clear on that. The white men have the biases all the women have and all the minorities have. We all have the same biases. There's only two options. One is that men are far, far, far more talented than women and deserve 95 percent of the top jobs, or the second is that there is systematic bias. Those are the options. Pick one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: OK, the good news. The incoming class at the Air Force Academy is 30 percent women. And that is impressive. It's also impressive the Air Force is willing to hold these kinds of forums. It provokes conversation and that's a good thing.

One more bit of good news. I talked with General Jeffrey Snow. He's in charge of recruiting for the U.S. Army. He tells me that, last year, 17 percent of those who were recruited were women. One of the better years they've had on record. If you want to hear more about the Air Force Academy and Sheryl Sandberg, check out my op-ed on CNN.com/opinion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:47:04] COSTELLO: It's being called the worst refugee crisis since World War II. Now leaders from Europe and Africa are holding a summit in Malta to find solutions. All of this comes amid two new migrant tragedies -- 14 people drowning when this boat sank off the Turkish coast while heading to the Greek island of Lesbos. 27 others were rescued. And in a second incident, the bodies of four people were recovered by the Turkish coast guard.

CNN's senior international correspondent Arwa Damon joins me now from the island of Lesbo. Hi Arwa.

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. And those tragic deaths happening in those waters just behind us, that is tricky right there. About a two-hour ride away. So many people perishing here because the smugglers continue to pack them into these barely sea-worthy rubber dinghies. You see one there arriving earlier in the day, it among some of the other arrivals that we did witness.

People, when they finally get to the safety of Greece, so understandably relieved. Many of them shell-shocked, traumatized by the journey. Because, oftentimes, as they have been telling us, the boats, these rubber dinghies that they're in, begin sinking as they're going along because they are so over weighed. And they try to protect the children by putting them in the middle areas, arriving on these shores cold, in need of medical attention. Volunteer teams rushing to their assistance.

You see one of them right there; they are the Greek volunteer life guards, most of those from Athens, professional students who are putting their lives on hold to try to help out because they fundamentally believe that that is something they have to do.

And just to give you a bit of an idea of the sheer volume. You see that pile of life jackets right there. That is a fraction, and I really mean a fraction, of the life jackets that you will see littering the various different coastlines, beaches, and coves here.

In terms of numbers, Frontex said that in the first ten months of 2015, 540,000 people made the journey from Turkey to Greece. And that is 13 times the number that made the journey in that same time period of 2014.

The Malta conference, though, very much focusing on Africa and the migrants that are leaving Africa. A pledge of around $1.8 billion being made to various different nations. But the dynamic, the people we're seeing arriving here on these shores, they are those that are those fleeing the war zones of Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and they do not have a choice. And trying to end what is forcing them to leave their homes, that horrible violence, well, that sadly is not going to happen any time soon. And the more people try to get here, the more people are being found dead in these various waters, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Arwa Damon reporting live for us. I'll be right back.

[09:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Starbucks is getting some flack for leaving out the holiday spirit on its seasonal cups. See? But one of its competitors is finding a way to bring joy. There it is. That's the Dunkin' Donuts cup.

Christine Romans is here and she has more on this huge controversy.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNMONEY CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It is a huge controversy; I'm really surprised. And it's either -- it's a war on Christmas or it's a tempest in the coffee pot, depending on how you look at it.

Here is the Dunkin' Donuts' cup. This is exactly like it was last year, but online it is being heralded -- heralded, get it -- heralded as a sign that the Christmas spirit, the holiday spirit is alive and well. The controversy over Starbucks, is Starbucks minimalized. It really got minimalistic in its design. Can I show you the evolution of the Starbucks cup over the past few years?

The evolution of the Starbucks cup. Look at 2010, fvery estive, lots of snowy spirit. Then by 2012 you've got the stove tophat.

[10:00:00]

He gives way to some sort of starry, you know, more -- I don't know, vague in 2013. By now it's 2015 and it's just red, white, and green. Starbucks said they wanted to allow every customer to tell their own story.