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Russia Responds to ISIS; War Against ISIS; Battle over Immigration. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 12, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Wolf, thank you so much.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

And we've got some breaking news I want to get right to you. Russia responding to a threat from ISIS , the terrorist, releasing a nearly five-minute long video saying it is on the verge of attacking Russia and that, quote, "soon, very soon, the blood will spill like an ocean." This video's release happening as we get word that Russia may be planning to retaliate for the deadly crash of its passenger plane, that Metrojet airliner, in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula. Intelligence suggesting that an ISIS offshoot, an affiliate, planted a bomb on that plane before it took off.

So let's get straight to this video. Jim Sciutto is joining me, our CNN chief national security correspondent.

What more is in this video, Jim?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, I'll tell you, this video, it is haunting, it is dramatic, as they tend to be. A couple things different about this one. One, the chanting over it is in Russian. Typically it's in Arabic. And also there's a lot of pictures, as you see there, of Russian cities, Russian targets. So there's no doubt as to who the audience is for this video saying that we are in effect coming to you. As the video says, we're going to spill blood.

Russia responding. The Kremlin spokesman, spokesman for President Putin, Dmitry Peskov, say they are aware of the video and they're looking at it to judge its authenticity.

BALDWIN: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you so much. As soon as you get more, obviously, from Russia, want to fold this in, and more from this video as well. Thank you so much.

So, meantime, in Iraq, a major offensive in the war on ISIS. U.S. coalition war planes dropping bombs, helping Kurdish forces as they battle to retake the key Iraqi city of Sinjar. CNN cameras rolling again smack dab there on the front lines, embedded with Peshmerga fighters. But what's key here is this map. You see this piece here. This is the map in Sinjar, right? So this is the red area you see here. It's Sinjar Mountain. That is the strategic town near that Syrian border, that white border there, and recapturing it would effectively cut off the supply line between the ISIS strongholds of Raqqa and Mosul.

But just as important as dividing the ISIS caliphate is saving the thousands of people, the thousands of religious minorities who live right there. And how could any of us forget this just incredible, devastating video here that CNN shot. This was Sinjar where CNN witnessed the desperate and terrified Yazidi minorities on the verge of slaughter. The children, the families climbing in these helicopters with our CNN crews, scrambling on board in order to escape the incoming terrorists.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is on the front lines for us on this battle. He joins me on the phone.

SO, Nick, as we're talking about this strategic area of Sinjar and we're hearing these Kurdish forces have actually retaken this strategic stretch of highway, tell me what you're seeing.

NIC PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): What we saw earlier on today, and we've now moved away from Sinjar as dark has fallen, was the Peshmerga moving into the west of (INAUDIBLE) in huge numbers. Astonishing numbers really. They claim 7,500. They move around to the west through the Rocky Mountain areas there, down to that key highway you're referring to. Now after (ph) some distance and a lot of coalition air power that we saw particularly to the west of Sinjar, what must have been targeted on ISIS' (INAUDIBLE) to try and push back towards the city and keep the Peshmerga away from that vital road. They took it and they moved further toward the east as towards Sinjar city center itself, thousands of them, but they were met by substantial numbers of car bombs that were, it seemed, focused (ph) in their direction.

But at the same time, those Peshmerga were, in fact, able to, at times, stop some of those car bombs from coming near them because they have a new missile system called (INAUDIBLE), which actually fired at those cars, blowing them up in their tracks. So a lot of resistance still in evidence in the city. ISIS have hundreds of fighters still inside, 600 by one estimation. They may choose to try and sit it out, to try and retain control over that area. It is vital that they have that supply route. Although I have to say, you saw excavators in present (ph) very quickly on digging huge trenches, creating massive earth berms along that road, effectively cutting off from any traffic, not just ISIS traffic.

So it seems quite quickly one small part of the Peshmerga's goals achieved. The broader question of how do you purge ISIS from that urban sprawl that is Sinjar, yet to be resolved. And, of course, we saw that (INAUDIBLE). How many civilians are actually in Sinjar at this stage. There's no real (INAUDIBLE) as to who actually was left in there under ISIS rule.

Brooke. BALDWIN: Nick Paton Walsh there in Iraq. Nick, thank you.

[14:05:01] He brought up a number of key questions. Let's have a broader discussion. Josh Rogin joining me, CNN political analyst and columnist for Bloomberg View. And also here, General Mark Hertling, CNN military analyst and retired former commanding general for the Europe and 7th Army.

So, welcome to both of you.

And, General Hertling, first up, and we've talked about the Sinjar area before. You have been there. You know the terrain, the fighters, the politics. So - and I know you point out there's a lot more here than meets the eye. But, first, I bet you have been along this stretch of highway. I want you to tell me, this Peshmerga attack here, it's a much bigger deal than it - than it looks.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Very much bigger deal than it looks, Brooke. You're talking about the Yazidi population who has attempted to persuade the Kurdish regional government to illuminate this siege for several months now. There have been some infighting between the various political parties within the Peshmerga. This is a grouped of armed fighters who are both supported by the KDP, one political party, and another one, the PUK. They're coming from different directions. The forces are supported by different governmental officials, but they're releading (ph) this city to - a city, by the way, of about 400,000 when it was thriving. This was a big, sprawling city on the side of Sinjar Mountain and that road, which we're talking about, Highway 47, which goes east to west from Raqqa through Sinjar, through Talaper (ph) into Mosul has been critically important for the ISIS fighters to resupply that base in the Mosul region.

And it's a long stretch. I've been on that road several times. It is long. It is boring. It's wide open. And the difference in terms of the tactics now is you have a significantly increased air power capability because we have airplanes flying out of Incirlik and they include F- 16s and A-10s. They have longer loiter time on station. They have better capability to engage people in the middle of the desert. And the Kurds in this case have been re-enforced, as Nick said, with anti- tank missiles, which will destroy these vehicle-born explosive devices, which has been one of the keynote techniques of the ISIS force.

BALDWIN: So encouraging, potential, you know, huge step forward here as we look at northern Iraq. But, Josh, I mean ISIS has held so much territory, including, of course, Mosul, parts of western Iraq, eastern Syria. So many other challenges here in this part of the world.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. And I would agree with everything the general said, but just add a bit of context here. Sinjar is symbolic. Let's remember. That's the place that President Obama mentioned when he first decided to use U.S. air power in Iraq to prevent a genocide against the Yazidis who have suffered horrendously at the hands of ISIS. But it is only one small piece of a much bigger puzzle. You can be

sure that ISIS has other ways, maybe not as good, to get goods to and from Mosul and Raqqa. You can be sure that the fight in Sinjar will last for a long time and ISIS will mount a counter offensive so the effort will really be to hold that area.

And also, this still doesn't answer what really are the big questions in the war against ISIS, which is, how do you liberate these big population centers. Mosul has been under ISIS control for 18 months. Raqqa for even longer than that. There's no prospect of there being an offensive against any of those population centers at any time to - for months, maybe years even. So while we can say that this represents a stepping up of both U.S. and coalition activity against the Islamic state, it's a tactical change, not a strategic shift, in what many military experts agree is a stalemate.

BALDWIN: General, I want you to jump in on that but I also want to take this a step further to your point as well. I mean here we have the Yazidis, this religious minority, you know, living in and around the area of Sinjar, are also blaming the Peshmerga and the Kurdistan democratic party for, I think you phrased it, hanging them out to dry, because as a result of ISIS coming through, you know, thousands of their women became slaves. Talk about that, you know, that facet of this whole fight.

HERTLING: Well, I'd first like to address Josh because he's partly right, but I don't completely agree with him.

BALDWIN: OK.

HERTLING: Any place the Iraqi government or the Peshmerga or the U.S. are going to fight is - and where there's media, it is quickly going to become a strategic town. Sinjar is not strategically important. It is a tactical and an objective in order to get after Mosul. That is the prize. And there are several other lines of effort. There's fighting in Ramadi to pull ISIS away from any reinforcement of other places. There's fighting in Beiji (ph). There's fighting in Hawija (ph), in Shirkat (ph) eventually, in the Kurdish region outside of Kirkuk. So all of these areas are contributing. And for the first time since this campaign began, I think the Iraqi government and the Peshmerga - and the Kurdish government are forcing ISIS to look in several directions. They have had free reign in this area.

[14:09:59] While I certainly agree with Josh saying that there's still some strategic challenges, big time, we have to continue to stop the flow of fighters into this area and we have to ensure the governments of both Iraq and the Kurdish regional government and eventually whatever government becomes available in Syria, continues to step up. We've seen indicators of that starting to happen in many regions to include Raqqa. Allegedly the Kurds and the Arab forces in that region are about to stand up with the attempt of having some free Syrian fighters, Arab fighters, inside of the town of Raqqa willing to step up against ISIS. (INAUDIBLE) implode. It may take a while.

ROGIN: OK, here - here is the big - here -

BALDWIN: Quick. Quick.

ROGIN: Yes, here is the big flaw with the -

BALDWIN: Quickly, quickly, Josh.

ROGIN: Here's the big flaw with the optimistic vision that the general is putting out. In the end, Kurdish forces cannot take over Arab areas. It can really only be done by Arab/Sunni fighters. That effort to mobilize those Arab/Sunni fighters is failing. The Iraqi government has not done what it needs to bring all of those groups into the fight. The U.S. government is overly reliant on the people that we know can fight against ISIS, the Kurds, and in the end that will never produce the optimistic outcomes that the general is forecasting here.

HERTLING: I'm optimistic, Jeff, because - or, Josh, because I can't afford to be anything else having fought in that area.

ROGIN: Well, we'll see.

HERTLING: I believe in the Iraqi people that they can regain this ground with good governance and it will eventually be a forcing function to cause that to happen. To just ring their - your hands about, oh, well, we'll just let this continue to happen is just not a viable option.

ROGIN: Well, no one -

HERTLING: People have to work at it and that's what's occurring right now.

BALDWIN: OK. All right, gentlemen, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I appreciate both of your perspectives. I hope to be optimistic as well, but I appreciate the - the realistic view as well. General Hertling, Josh Rogin, thank you both so much, both of your voices.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up here, we are following breaking news out of Lebanon. An official with the Lebanese Red Cross says more than 40 people are dead, dozens more wounded, following a pair of suicide bombings in Beirut. We will have a live report, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:11] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Let's get straight to more breaking news that we're learning about this Thursday afternoon here. This coming straight to us from Lebanon. An official with the Lebanese Red Cross says at least 41 people have been killed, dozens more wounded following a pair of suicide bombings in Beirut. I have journalist Tamara Qiblawi. She is on the phone there at the scene in Beirut.

Tamara, can you tell me what exactly you're seeing? TAMARA QIBLAWI, FREELANCE JOURNALIST, BEIRUT (via telephone): Well,

it's been about two hours since the bomb - the suicide bombing went off. And so this area is mostly empty. It's been cordoned off by the army. But, otherwise, there's a lot of shattered glass on the street, a lot of blood and it's really just a scene of chaos and carnage.

BALDWIN: What are you hearing? The numbers we have here at CNN, 41 killed. How many - do you have a number on how many people were injured?

QIBLAWI: The Lebanese Red Cross says - reported over 180 injured. And we - we haven't heard anything besides the Lebanese Red Cross' number. There's not really much disagreement about that figure.

BALDWIN: So these suicide bombs would have gone off around noon eastern time. What time in Beirut? And what part - what - tell me the part of the city, what's it like, residential, businesses?

BALDWIN: Well, this is a very residential area. It's mixed Sunni, Shia and Palestinian area because it is a - it's on the outskirts of a major Palestinian refugee camp here in Beirut. Now, this area is also in the southern suburbs of Beirut, which is known to be a Hezbollah stronghold - a stronghold of Islam's militia Hezbollah. But this neighborhood in particular is a very popular neighborhood.

BALDWIN: Tamara, stay with me. If you are watching with me here on screen, you are seeing this other additional piece of breaking news. A purported statement, circulated online by ISIS supporters on social media claiming responsibility for this deadly suicide bombings, these pair of bombings there in southern Beirut. CNN, let me be clear, cannot confirm the authenticity of this statement. These are claims, though, from ISIS supporters online.

Tamara, stay with me. Let me bring in Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, who has still remained with us.

And, General Hertling, when you hear this, again, CNN cannot, you know, verify the authenticity of these statements from ISIS supporters, but why Beirut? You know, especially in the wake of what we've seen, according to U.S. intelligence, with regard to that Russian passenger plane in the Sinai. Why this? Why now?

HERTLING: Well, it's - it's another attempt at various affiliates to become connected with ISIS. And I think a lot of the intelligence communities and a lot of the diplomats have been talking very closely with not only the Lebanese government, but also the Jordanian government, and their fear was they were going to become next with the overflowing of extremist groups out of Syria into their countries. This might be early stages of that occurring. It's been a concern for several months and I think you've seen the State Department officials in both Lebanon and Jordan saying, hey, you've got to continue to help us counter this ISIS threat because you are at the pathway now.

[14:19:54] The same thing, Brooke, I think we've seen in the Sinai. You know, a lot of people are saying that was ISIS. It was originally a group called Williot (ph) Sinai who has proclaimed themself an affiliate of ISIS. They have been fighting for over two years in an attempt to overthrow the Egyptian government. They wanted to come down on the side of ISIS and it's a successful mission. So now they're being seen as connected to this organization. So this is again a gross - a growth of a cancerous organization throughout the Middle East.

BALDWIN: With this cancerous organization, obviously as we talk about in Sinai and here in this part of Lebanon affiliates, as you point out.

Josh Rogin is also with us. General, stand by. Stay with me.

Josh Rogin, Bloomberg View, CNN analyst.

So, tell me more about - she was saying this is a residential area. I mean we see the just horrendous pictures, the crowds, the glass, the blood, the clothing here on the city streets where this happened. What sort of ISIS presence or ISIS affiliates would be in this part of the country?

ROGIN: Sure. I think we can say that there is a rich tapestry of extremist groups that operate in and around that area. And I also think we need to put this attack in the context of what's going on in Syria right now. There was a string of attacks in Lebanon, some of the worst attacks they've seen in late 2013, after Hezbollah entered forcefully on the side of the Assad regime in the Syrian civil war. Now in Syria, Hezbollah has engaged in a new offensive against both the Islamic State and other opposition groups. So many of these groups are looking to attack Hezbollah where they have a power base.

The fact that there is a big refugee camp right next to the explosion may or may not have direct bearing on this attack, but there is a concern that there's a lot of people in these refugee camps may have come from the fight in Syria. It's not exactly clear who they all are. So as the investigation goes forward, one of the things I'm sure that investigators are going to be looking for is, how did these attackers get this deep into Lebanon? Were they targeting a Hezbollah controlled area in order to send a message to Hezbollah that their intervention in the Syria war is - should be stopped. And then who exactly is responsible? It could be ISIS. It could be other groups. There are many Sunni/Shia groups - I'm sorry, Sunni extremist groups that have a big problem with what Hezbollah is doing inside of Syria.

BALDWIN: So you're telling me a potential - and, again, we don't know. And, again, this is - you know, we're seeing ISIS supporters claim responsibility. We can't authenticate that whatsoever. Again, 41 people killed, just around 200 people wounded in these two suicide bomb attacks.

So, Josh, to your point, a possibility would be targeting Hezbollah specifically and civilians being collateral damage.

ROGIN: Yes, that's exactly right. And what this is based on is the pattern of attacks that we've seen over the last few years as Hezbollah has gotten more and more involved in Syria.

Now, what the general said is also correct, there's a completion amongst Jihadi groups for - to carry out these big impact attacks, right? It's important to note that this attack was carried out during rush hour, that was to maximize the civilian casualties, to maximize the damage and the popular impact that this attack would have on the Lebanese population. They're attacking Hezbollah if, again, the target was Hezbollah, and we can't confirm that, but they're attacking their popular support. They're attacking their - their base, right. Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon and they control large areas such as the one that was attacked.

So, again, although the evidence is still coming in, the investigation will have to be carried out. If this is part of the pattern that we've seen in Lebanon over the last two years, this may be a direct blow or an attempted blow against Hezbollah's popular support inside of Lebanon.

BALDWIN: Josh Rogin, thank you so much. General Hertling, thank you. And our reporter there on the ground at the scene, Tamara Qiblawi, thank you as well.

As soon as we get more information, we'll update you with that story, 41 fatalities and just about 200 people injured after these two suicide bombings, rush hour, residential area, happened there in the southern part of Beirut.

Coming up here, will it will the central issue that defines the Republican race for president, illegal immigration and what to do about it? You've heard Donald Trump's plan, build a wall, call for a deportation force. Marco Rubio repeatedly asked today, where does he stand. We'll talk to Dana Bash, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:35] BALDWIN: To the race for the White House and really this growing gap among Republicans over this key issue being immigration reform. You know what Donald Trump wants. Wants to build a big wall. And want this deportation force that would escort 11 million people out of the country. OK. That's what he says. More and more attention is focusing here on these two freshmen senators who are both of Cuban descent, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. Since Tuesday night's debate, Cruz has been blasting Rubio over his support of comprehensive immigration reform. But, hours ago, Rubio said he and Cruz have similar proposals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Opposed (ph) legalizing people that were here illegally. He proposed giving them work permits. He's also supported a massive expansion of the green cards. He's supposed a massive expansion of the H1V (ph) program, a 500 percent increase. So if you look at it, I don't think our positions are dramatically different. I do believe that we have to deal with immigration reform in a serious way and it begins by proving to people that illegal immigration is under control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Here she is, chief political correspondent Dana Bash. And so here we have Rubio on immigration, which he sort of, you know, wasn't part of that whole massive moment two nights ago talking immigration and now he's being hit, hit, hit.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. He skated away -

BALDWIN: Yes, he did.

[14:29:48] BASH: Without getting the question on it because he is the most vulnerable when you - when it comes to what conservatives really want from their Republican candidate, which is somebody who maybe not to go as far as Donald Trump, which is to deport the undocumented immigrants, but somebody who is not going to support a path to citizenship. And Marco Rubio was a co-author of the bipartisan plan to do that.