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Post-Debate Analysis. Aired 11-11:59p ET
Aired November 14, 2015 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A major terror threat to the United States to climate change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(UNKNOWN MALE): Senator Sanders you said you wanted to rid the planet of ISIS. In the previous debate you said the greatest threat to national security was climate change. Do you still believe that?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Absolutely. In fact climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism. And if we do not get our act together and listen to what the scientists say, you're going to see countries all over the world -- this is what the CIA says.
They're going to be struggling over limited amounts of water, limited amounts of land to grow their crops. And you're going to see all kinds of international conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: We have a very strong team of political experts with us tonight to review exactly what happened during this Democratic presidential debate. Let's go to David Axelrod. First, David, you're a former senior advisor to President Obama.
What do you think, did Hilary Clinton, as some pundits are already suggesting, maybe you missed an opportunity to tonight to stand out given her experience as Secretary of State.
DAVID AXELROD: You know what was interesting to me, normally she's being attacked for being too political. I think in this moment she was really thinking like a person who might become president of the United States and she was very tempered in her answers because of that.
And it may have been in the short run not to her political benefit, but it may be to her credit in the long run that she took that posture.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON: Well also don't forget, she was a member of this administration, as you know, so she was walking a fine line here, trying to distance herself to a certain degree from President Obama saying that, you know, using the line that ISIS cannot be contained, it must be defeated. That's a direct reference to the President saying that ISIS was contained. And also pointing out that early on in Syria she said we need to try
-- she said "I said we needed to train and equip the moderates" so distancing herself a little bit so I think it was -- it was difficult for her so I would call her subdued in a way in which I expected her to be more assertive.
BLITZER: Nia-Malika Henderson, was Bernie Sanders statement that climate change represents the major national security threat -- given what's going on in Paris over the past 24-48 hours, was that a mistake?
HENDERSON: Oh well, you know, he was essentially reiterating what he said in the previous debate but it is a different time now. Paris obviously hanging very heavily over this debate tonight and you imagine that most Americans, when they think about ISIS and when they think about threats to the homeland and to their families, they're not necessarily thinking about climate change.
But in that instance I do think he was kind of showing that when it comes to foreign policy and the kind of hawkish tone that some people want to hear, even from Democrats, that he's not necessarily going to give that to Democrats.
BLITZER: Did he feel comfortable from your perspective, Jeff Zeleny, Bernie Sanders going toe-to-toe if you will with Hillary Clinton on national security foreign policy?
JEFF ZELENY: There's no question that that is not his wheelhouse. That is not why Bernie Sanders is in this presidential race. But the interesting thing about presidential campaigns, often they end on topics different from the ones that they begin with.
We saw that in the 2008 campaign, so you have to be comfortable with everything. I thought he was comfortable enough. You know, he was able to say that he voted against the Iraq war, but it's clear that he has not spent nearly as much time thinking about that as some of the financial things.
But on the Wall Street area, that's where he shined a little bit more because that is why he is running. You know, but that's not the central challenge right ahead of us at this moment as we've seen in the last 24 hours in Paris.
BLITZER: She got into an extensive exchange with Bernie Sanders on the whole issue of Wall Street, the funding she's received over the years from big Wall Street -- Wall Street bankers, among others. Listen to this exchange she had with the Senator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS: This campaign contribution will not influence me. I'm going to be independent. But why do they make millions of dollars of campaign contributions? They expect to get something. Everybody knows that.
Once again, I am running a campaign differently than another candidate. We are relying on small campaign donors, 750,000 of them, 30 bucks a piece. That's who I'm indebted too.
HILLARY CLINTON: Well John -- John -- wait a minute. Wait a minute. He has basically -- he has basically used his answer to impugn my integrity let's be frank here.
SANDERS: No I did not.
CLINTON: Oh wait a minute Senator. You know, not only do I have hundreds of thousands of donors, most of them small, and I've proud that for the first time a majority of my donors are women, 60% --
I -- I represented New York and I represented New York on 9/11 when we attacked. Where were we attacked? We were attacked in downtown Manhattan where Wall Street is. I did spend a whole lot of time and effort helping them rebuild.
That was good for New York, it was good for the economy and it was a way to rebuke the terrorists who had attacked our country.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: Paul Begala, you work and support a pro-Hillary Clinton super pack. You obviously want Hillary Clinton to be the Democratic nominee for the next President of the United States, but she's already getting some criticism here as well for invoking 9/11 to justify her support from some certain Wall Street bankers.
PAUL BEGALA: There wasn't any there -- there. In other words, Senator Sanders needs to close the loop. Okay, he says you got donations, he doesn't point to a vote. He doesn't say here's something you did wrong. One of the reasons Barack Obama defeated Hillary was he pointed out the Iraq war vote, a specific vote. He didn't allege it was because of campaign contributions.
He just saw her voter judgment was wrong. Senator Sanders doesn't have the punch after the setup. He's like well you took Wall Street money. She's like yeah, well, what did I do? I helped them recover after the war. I also have a proposal which she claims, rightly, that Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize-winning economist who writes for the New York Times, has praised.
So he's got to have something there from the left. He can't just say oh, Wall Street is bad and you represented New York, therefore well what?
BLITZER: S.E. Cupp, you're a good conservative analyst for CNN, do you agree with Paul?
S.E. CUPP, CONSERVATIVE ANALYST: Well, that was a very strange pivot. She's getting a lot of flak for invoking 9/11, even if you short of follow the bread crumbs of where she was going, it was a very strange thing to bring up. I will say, however, that I think writ large and especially in that room, I think she won the debate on banking which is shocking.
She came in to this night with a natural advantage on foreign policy. She was really expected to look presidential next to Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley. Which she didn't expect though was that O'Malley was going to swing at her from the right on foreign policy, putting her between Bernie on the left, Martin on the right.
She was really in a defensive crowd for that entire foreign policy conversation. I actually thought she looked best when she was talking about banking, that one moment notwithstanding.
BLITZER: Was that her best moment Peter Beinart?
PETER BEINART: Yeah, I thought she also did well on gun control, but I think this answer on 9/11 is the one that is going to resonant. I would be surprised if she repeats it. I think it plays in to some of the stereotypes, the negative stereotypes that people have. It was a very canned political answer.
And it reminds Democrats of just what they don't like about Republicans, which is bringing up 9/11 in order to justify things that can't be justified other ways.
BLITZER: Patti Solis Doyle, you're a former Hillary Clinton campaign manager. Was that a rehearsed statement? Do you think she came in to this debate knowing Bernie Sanders would go after her on her contacts, her connections to Wall Street and she had this answer ready?
PATTI SOLIS DOYLE: Look I agree with S.E. Cupp, oddly enough. I think she won the debate on banking, but I do think that the 9/11 reference was probably better used when she was talking about terrorism. She was the Senator when the 9/11 attacks happened. She was the Senator when we needed to rebuild that city, and it would have been more powerful talking about terrorism.
BLITZER: I think we have a clip about Bernie Sanders, and he got lively tonight going after Hillary Clinton on several issues including her vote back at the end of 2002 in favor of going to war against Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
SANDERS: Let me have one area of disagreement with the Secretary. I think she said something like the bulk of the responsibility is not ours. Well, in fact, I would argue that the disastrous invasion of Iraq, something that I strongly opposed, has unraveled the region completely and lead to the rise of Al Qaeda and to ISIS.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: David Axelrod, he's basically blaming that vote, going to war against Iraq for all the troubles ISIS is causing today.
AXELROD: Well, there is a good case to be made that that -- that the war in Iraq has led to some disastrous consequences. I thought that she was prepared for that answer by coming back and pointing out that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq, a lot of terrorism attacks on us happened before 9/11 and so to make that connection is not a good answer to the threat of today. So I, you know, I just want to agree with what Peter said on the earlier point about the 9/11 answer as a way of justifying support for Wall Street. I thought that was her one really false note in this whole debate. I said earlier sometimes she accused of being too political. That is an example of her being too political.
BLITZER: Did that should rehearsed to you?
AXELROD: Oh there's no doubt. Listen, I think she was splendid on the banking issue because she knew it was coming. She was prepared for it and that clearly was part of what she prepared. I think that was a false note they shouldn't have included it.
SOLIS DOYLE: I think it sounds like something someone came up with for her and she used it and it just fell flat. I mean and when you -- you know, when you talk about someone wanting to be authentic and -- it just didn't -- it just didn't sound good.
AXELROD: Which Bernie Sanders is by the way.
SOLIS DOYLE: Which he is.
AXELROD: He had a good night, for his supporters because he is totally authentic.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): She is authentically watching video of the worst terror attack in -- in -- in years. Of course it's going to be on her mind. I completely disagree. I'm not privy, I don't coordinate with her campaign, okay but I completely disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: If she had brought it up as Patti said in relationship to terrorism, it would have made sense. Using it as a way to justify -- she has a -- look, she has a traditional alliance with Wall Street. Maybe it's because she was Senator of New York. Her husband also had good support from Wall Street, and, you know, so it just seems like an unnecessary point.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Well and she did it -- she did it to slap Bernie Sanders down.
BLITZER: Hold on for a moment.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): That worked. Bernie Sanders then came back and said well you're right and we all appreciate what you did for New York on 9/11. I mean it was a little manipulative.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Yeah, and I think that's the point.
BLITZER: Our senior political correspondent, Brianna Keilar, is in Des Moines in a so-called spin room there where all the activists come to explain why their respective candidates won.
Brianna, are they doing some cleanup right now, the Hillary Clinton campaign on this specific issue, her use of 9/11 to justify the support she's apparently given, if you listen to Bernie Sanders to Wall Street?
BRIANNA KEILAR, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: They are Wolf, her communications director, Jen Palmieri, working the room right now, surrounded by a lot of reporters behind me and this is the issue that she is tackling. So the campaign is obviously aware that this was the weak spot for her.
Palmieri saying basically that Hillary Clinton, you know, was trying to explain why she's had some favor from Wall Street and basically just that she was proud to stand with the Wall Street community following 9/11. Of course that's not exactly how it came out of Hillary Clinton's mouth when she was explaining this.
And I think there's an awareness by the campaign that there was some awkwardness on that, certainly as we see some of the criticism following what she said. Of course, one of the other issues I think that is getting a lot of buzz Wolf has to do with her comment about being from the 60s and it being a long time ago.
This was something that made a lot of eyebrows of observers here in Des Moines raise because if she is to run in the general election, assuming she is the nominee against say a younger Republican, the expectation all along is that they would run a generational argument against her and certainly that is a campaign ad in the making.
And so that's something that I think that a lot of people were -- were zeroing in on, but yes definitely cleanup here on her comment about 9/11 and the realization that it did not go over as she intended. It certainly didn't go over well.
BLITZER: Brianna, the three presidential candidates, are they in the spin room? Are they talking to reporters? Are they making their case or have they gone home?
KEILAR: You know, from what I see right now Wolf, I don't think that we have any of the candidates in the room. I wouldn't be surprised -- I can't tell you exactly -- I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Martin O'Malley in here.
I'm not sure that we're going to see Bernie Sanders. I expect that we won't. Of course, that's possible that can change. We saw on the debate in Las Vegas, I think there was an expectation he might not come in and then he did come in. I don't think we're expecting Hillary Clinton here, if past is prologue. She probably won't come into the spin room.
BLITZER: We're going to get back to you. You'll stay in close touch with us, Brianna. I want to in the meantime play another excerpt. Here's Senator Bernie Sanders continuing to go after Hillary Clinton on this whole issue of Wall Street.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
CLINTON: So I want to look at the whole problem and that's why my proposal is much more comprehensive than anything else that's been put forth. (UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Sanders, you've -- you've said that the
donations to Secretary Clinton are compromising, so what did you think of her answer?
SANDERS: Not good enough.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: Not good enough, Jeff, he almost sounds like Larry (ph) a little bit.
ZELENY: It is becoming sort of comical there, but look, I mean, that is why this Democratic populous base -- they -- all the energy in the party is behind them for issues like this. They love it when he is like that. That is authentic. So I thought this was a very strong moment for him there.
But at the end of the day, you know, I think just events over the last 23 hours in Paris, other things, Democrats are also looking at who is the, sort of, leader on the big picture here and I'm still not sure that Bernie Sanders has filled in all those gaps here. But the Democrats who were watching that, it was Iowa.
Democrats who -- who -- who start this in less than three months those New Hampshire primary voters, Bernie Sanders still has at least a third to 40% of the party with him, no question.
BLITZER: You know -- Peter, go ahead.
BEINART: I actually think that I would -- and I say this a Liberal, I would be concerned as a Democrat about the entire terrorism part of this debate. The Republican line, whatever you think about it, is very clear. It's that we left Iraq, the terrorists fill the vacuum. We've retreated from the world, now they're going after us.
I -- you'd be darned to listen to all three of those candidates and find -- discern a clear democratic line of how you're actually going to fight terrorism. They were very vague, very nonspecific, and I think and I think they really have a lot of work to do.
If terrorism is going to be a major, major issue in this election, and the polls show people trust Republicans on it, they're going to have to do better.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): And there was a good five, eight minute section where the three of them sort of parsed words over words -- what they would call the -- the threat. Was it radical Jihadism, was it Islamic extremism. No one really came out -- I think if you're a voter at home, this is very frightening to see three Democrats not even sure of what to call it.
If you're just sitting at home you want -- you want someone up there who's presidential, who's not afraid to say the unpopular thing, and is going to be tougher on terrorism than they are afraid of political correctness.
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: -- saying the popular thing. I actually thought this was a good moment for Hillary when she explained that if you want to have influence in the region and work with countries in the region.
You have to be mindful of the language that you use. That's how presidents have to think. Candidates don't have to think that way. Certainly the Republican candidates aren't thinking that way.
(CROSSTALK)
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): I don't think most voters -- voters understand that nuance though, David.
AXELROD: No, but that has -- you're talking about elections then, you're saying she's not being presidential. I'm saying she's being presidential even at the cost, perhaps of some -- scoring --
BLITZER: Because Gloria (ph) like the -- President Obama, the three Democratic presidential candidates, they don't use the phrase Islamic terrorism.
BORGER: They don't use -- they don't. And so it was Jihadism, radical Jihadism, and they went around and around on it. Also what we didn't hear tonight is a debate you hear within the Republican Party on immigration and on Syrian refugees, for example.
There was no questioning aside from Hillary saying you have to vet refugees, et cetera, et cetera, but this is going to be a big issue now among Republicans the question of letting in Syrians into this country particularly given what's going on in Paris.
BLITZER: The working assumption, Jeff Zeleny, and you have covered these races, that the more the national security threat goes up, the better it potentially is for Republicans.
ZELENY: Not necessarily because who is the Republican nominee going to be here. So that is the big question here. There is no question that Hillary -- that since she was a part of this administration, she owns the Obama administration's legacy on foreign affairs and it does not look nearly as good as it looked when Bin Laden was killed.
She said that that was one of her moments. Well I mean that seems like so long ago. These new current threats, she is going to have to own those in a general election setting but elections are comparative things. Who is she running against? So if she is running against Marco Rubio, for example, he does not have as much experience as her.
If she is running against a Jeb Bush, he has, you know, some more experience. So she is still more the experienced one, but I do not think Republicans necessarily have the upper hand in this argument. But the Obama administration is leaving in a much different place than they thought they would be.
BLITZER: Because of the chaos throughout the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia -- ZELENY: Because of the utter chaos in the Middle East. But Peter was just saying earlier --
BLITZER: But you worked at the White House, David Axelrod, it wasn't supposed to be like this was it?
AXELROD: Well, it -- there -- it hasn't actually been a smooth line from the beginning Wolf. We've had a tumultuous situation from the time that we arrived there but obviously an emergence of ISIS was not what was anticipated and it is going to be an issue in the election.
On Gloria's (ph) point, all of the Democratic candidates held to the notion that we should still accept refugees. I think this is going to be a big flare point with the Republican candidates. Even before Paris Ted Cruz was going after Marco Rubio on immigration because he said it was opening the door to terrorists to come into the country.
I think it's -- it's a false argument but -- or an overblown argument but it's one that's going to be resonant -- more resonant after Paris.
BLITZER: Let me bring Patti in to this. Patti on Thursday the President gave an interview to George Stephanopoulos of ABC News in which he said ISIS has been contained in Iraq and Syria, they're not gaining any more ground.
And they've actually lost some ground. But within a day, we saw what happened in Paris and this certainly doesn't look like ISIS has been contained globally, if you will, especially given the attack on the Russian airliner killing 224 people, the twin suicide bombings in Beirut killing more than 40 people and now what's happened in Paris right now.
So how much of a problem is that going to be when Hillary Clinton says you can't contain ISIS, you got to defeat ISIS, in a sense differentiating herself from the position that the President has taken to contain and eventually destroy?
SOLIS DOYLE: I think it's going to be more of a problem in the general election then it is in the primary. I think -- look, I think the bar is different for Hillary Clinton then the rest of the Democrats on that stage. Hillary Clinton was U.S. Senator. Hillary Clinton was on the Arms Services Committee. Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State.
She has -- she is presidential. She is a commander in chief. She can be a commander in chief. Bernice Sanders and Martin O'Malley don't sort of reach that threshold with the American voters right now. So she can afford -- she -- she -- she is going to be with Barack Obama.
BLITZER: President says that the goal is to contain and eventually destroy ISIS. Hillary Clinton has a different nuance which she expressed tonight. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
CLINTON: We have to look at ISIS as the leading threat of an international terror network. It cannot be contained, it must be defeated.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: Now see, so here she is moving beyond what the President has said.
SOLIS DOYLE: Yeah and that's smart in light of recent events but no one on that stage -- I mean they all talked about this being a threat and a serious problem. No one really talked about how far they would go to defeat ISIS. What strategically they would do because it's politically very perilous.
You know, very tough spot tonight of all nights to have a debate about the politics of war as France -- Paris is still cleaning bodies out of the street, knowing that they have war weary citizens back home and progressives who don't want them to give an inch, it's a very, very tough spot. So I think they were only as forthcoming as they were prodded to be by the moderator.
BLITZER: And Peter, let's not forget, here in the United States, the FBI, they've told all the field offices don't go away, stay on alert. There's now a lot of heightened security at NFL football games tomorrow all over the United States.
Cities like New York, here in Washington, Los Angeles, they're telling their law enforcement, the police, be on the lookout. There's concern here and people are nervous, looking at what happened in Paris.
BEINART: Right and I think this is another example of how Hillary Clinton's support for the war in Iraq makes this harder for her right? You see what Bernie Sanders would say. He'd say the real reason we have ISIS there, the bigger, bigger mistake was not the Obama administration's decision to withdraw troops, it was the fact that we invaded in the first place.
BLITZER: But the answer is look what happened on 9/11 before the U.S. invaded Iraq.
BEINART: Right, right, but I think the point -- the point is she having supported the Iraq war can't actually then go turn around and really blame it on the Bush administration. I think that the fact -- she is associated --
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): But she did, she did --
BEINART: Right, right but I think -- but it's not going to be, I think, that credible. She has the fact -- she is going to have to run this campaign being linked both to the Iraq war and the Libya war. Both wars that have turned out very badly and I think that's going to be tough.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Let Paul (ph). Paul (ph) -- and I just want to remind our viewers you support a pro-Hillary Clinton super pack.
BEGALA: Do I? I work for a pro-Hillary, I advise pro-Hillary. I'm for Hillary. By the way, I'd be for Hillary if nobody paid me.
BLITZER: All right.
BEGALA: Okay. I'm for Hillary. I love her. I think she would be a terrific president, and where the debate will go on the general Peter, is the next Iraq war. A lot of Republicans want, as they say boots on the ground.
Martin O'Malley had a good moment where he talked about a mom of a soldier saying don't call my kid a pair of boots on the ground. But that's the phrase Republicans like. They seem to want to re-invade Iraq and the general election debate could very well be on national security, a much -- a much bigger debate about should the United States evade Iraq yet again.
It seems insane to me, but I think that's where it's going to go. And she's very comfortable, I think, on that turf.
BLITZER: But you know, hopefully it won't happen. If there are similar events in the United States to what happened in Paris, the pressure to do something maybe go ahead and use a lot of so-called boots on the ground. That will multiply.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): To do something. But to put boots on the ground, I say use the phrase war weary and we are. I do not think this country wants to -- how did it work out the last time? You know, I just don't think this country wants to invade Iraq again.
BLITZER: Hold your thoughts guys, because we're continuing. We have much more on tonight's Democratic presidential debate ahead. Did Bernie Sanders do Hillary Clinton yet another favor when it came to her email controversy, plus the candidates' attacks on their Republican rivals.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
CLINTON: They are putting forth alarming plans. I mean all of us support funding Planned Parenthood. All of us believe climate change is real. All of us want equal pay for equal work. They don't believe in any of that.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Sharp exchanges, pointed accusations, some memorable one- liners, we saw that and a whole lot more as the Democratic presidential candidates debated tonight in Des Moines, Iowa. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
CLINTON: We need to have a resolve that will bring the world together to root out the kind of radical Jihadist ideology that motivates organizations like ISIS, a barbaric, ruthless, violent Jihadist terrorist group. SANDERS: Together leading the world, this country, will rid our
planet of this barbarous organization called ISIS.
O'MALLEY: I was in Burlington, Iowa and a mom of a service member of ours, who's served two duties in Iraq, said "Governor O'Malley, please, when you're with your other candidates and colleagues on stage, please don't use the term boots on -- on the ground. Please don't use the term boots on the ground. My son is not a pair of boots on the ground."
I think we need major reform in the military, making it more cost effective by also focusing on the real crisis that faces us. The cold war is over.
CLINTON: We have to look at ISIS as the leading threat as an international terror network. It cannot be contained, it must be defeated.
O'MALLEY: Let's say it in our debate, because you'll never hear this from that immigrant bashing, carnival barker, Donald Trump, the truth of the matter is -- the truth of the matter is net immigration from Mexico last year was zero.
SANDERS: Why do -- why over her political career, has Wall Street been a major, the major campaign contributor to Hillary Clinton? Now maybe their dumb, and they don't know what they're going to get, but I don't think so.
CLINTON: I represented New York and I represented New York on 9/11 when we were attacked. Where we attacked? We were attacked in downtown Manhattan where Wall Street is. I did spend a whole lot of time and effort helping them rebuild. That was good for New York. It was good for the economy, and it was a way to rebuke the terrorists.
SANDERS: I was sick and tired of Hillary Clinton's email. I am still sick and tired of Hillary Clinton's email. I didn't know I had so much power, but after I said that, we're not hearing much about Hillary Clinton's email.
CLINTON: I couldn't have said it better myself. They are putting forth alarming plans. I mean all of us support funding Planned Parenthood. All of us believe climate change is real. All of us want equal pay for equal work. They don't believe in any of that, so let's focus on what this election is really going to be about --
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: All right, let's go back to our expert political commentators. Peter Beinart, who won this debate?
BEINART: I don't think there was a clear winner, but Hillary Clinton won by not losing. She's clearly ahead. Bernie -- it was Bernie Sanders who needs to really change the dynamic and he didn't. He didn't have a moment where he really went for the jugular and it will stick in people's minds I think. BLITZER: You know, S.E., that Republicans will point out, you know,
these Democratic challengers to Hillary Clinton, they don't even want to talk to her about her email controversy which, of course, the FBI is actually even investigating.
CUPP: Yeah, I don't know how long Senator Sanders or Governor O'Malley can go without really getting personal with Hillary Clinton. I mean, there seems to be this whole terrain that they don't want to go in to which is actually where she is very vulnerable with the American people, on her trustworthiness, and her sort of being in touch with regular people.
You saw Senator Sanders many times, I thought, very conciliatory during this debate to say with all due respect, Secretary Clinton, even when he would disagree. That's very lovely but she has proven over time, many times, that she is not afraid to get nasty with the other candidates. She has had her surrogates attacking Bernie Sanders for not caring the Hispanic population.
For being weak on guns. I mean, they're going to have to get aggressive if they actually want to make a dent.
BLITZER: Well David, did Bernie Sanders make a mistake by not going after her, at least raising questions about the email controversy?
AXELROD: You know, I think it's important to note, as he's citing general election kinds of polling, Democrats really like Hillary Clinton. She's quite popular and I think you go after her in a very personal way at your own peril if you're a primary candidate.
I will say, too, that I think the Benghazi committee continues to be the gift that keeps on giving to Hillary Clinton. One of her best lines tonight was when John Dickerson asked her are there other shoes to drop and she said well after 11 hours I don't think.
BLITZER: Some people thought that 11 hour hearing was an in kind contribution to her campaign.
AXELROD: Absolutely.
BLITZER: I know you believe that.
AXELROD: Yeah, I do.
SOLIS DOYLE: You know, Hillary Clinton I think she's got 85 percent favorables or something like that in the Democratic Party and last week I talked with Bernie Sanders about this and he had seemed to attack her a little bit on the emails and then he backed off.
He immediately back off because he understands her popularity. Where he did attack her, and she went right back at him, as S.E. says, was on the Wall Street issue and the corrupt political system and all of that and she turned it in to a personal issue.
And she said you're challenging my integrity and then he backed off. So she made it personal. I think Bernie Sanders tried to attack her on the corrupt political system and the fact that she's had support from Wall Street for her entire career and she took it personally on purpose.
CUPP: Yeah I think that's right. I think she wants to draw Bernie Sanders in to a fight. He doesn't seem to know what he wants to do, go after her harshly or not. I thought there were a couple of lines when she talked about her plan, her economic plan, not taxing the middle class.
Of course we know that Bernie Sanders has said that maybe the middle class would get a hit under her -- under his program. Also when she talked about needing -- someone needing to defend Obama care and we know Bernie Sanders has sort of a different idea about what to do about Obama care. So I think she wants to draw him out but he doesn't necessarily bite all the time.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): When you talk to voters out there, at all these huge Bernie Sanders rallies, one thing I am struck by from city to city to city, they love Bernie Sanders and what he stands for. It is very difficult to find someone who is sharply critical of Hillary Clinton or on the emails.
So Bernie Sanders knows exactly what he's doing here by not going hard after her on emails. You know, I mean, I'm not sure if it's the smartest political move or not but his supporters do not want to see him tear her down. That would not be a good --
CUPP: They should all just conceded then. I mean by this logic of the --
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): No, they want him to draw out issues on income and inequality, on Wall Street, on other things.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Bernie's figured out his strategy and he's doing really well. Okay, he's gone from nothing to like 30 percent, right? Attack Wall Street. That's his thing. Now he doesn't have a link yet. He doesn't have a vote, Hillary voted X on Wall Street therefore vote against her.
But he at least knows his game. O'Malley hinted, again tonight, to suggest maybe he's got a game which is go after Trump. Now he did it again, he had one line, it was a great line. He called Mr. Trump an immigrant bashing, carnival barker.
Okay, if you can't attack Hillary because she does have an 80 percent favorable, go after the guy who has 80 percent negative. So I think Martin -- Martin O'Malley ought to do a lot more of that.
CUPP: If you telling me that these two people have made a dent in the Hillary Clinton campaign in the primaries significant enough to mount a challenge I'm going to tell you you're lying to my face.
BLITZER: The Martin O'Malley clip, where he -- the former Governor of Maryland -- he's not doing all that great in the polls, but as you say, he had a strong line. I'm going to play the extended excerpt of what he said. (UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Enhanced remix?
BLITZER: Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
O'MALLEY: If more voter security and these -- and more and more deportations were going to bring our Republican brothers and sisters to the table, it would have happened long ago. The fact of the matter is, and let's say it in our debate because you'll never hear this from that immigrant bashing, carnival barker, Donald Trump --
The truth of the matter is -- the truth of the matter is net immigration from Mexico was zero. Fact check me. Go ahead, check it out.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: Actually, we have in fact -- we're going to have our fact check, that's coming up so I think you will be interested in that, but go ahead David.
AXELROD: Here -- here's what surprises me about Martin O'Malley and it has throughout this campaign. He's standing on the stage with two candidates, one is 68-years old, and the other is 74-years old and he never makes the generational argument which seems to me the strongest case for him to make. I find that bewildering.
SOLIS DOYLE: He makes it occasionally. He made it sort of in his opening statement, I think he made it in his closing statement when he talked about a new, fresh approach. And he also took a pretty direct shot at Hillary Clinton when he said that we don't need to return to polarizing figures from our past. I imagine --
AXELROD: But he doesn't drive it consistently or offer himself as new generation candidate.
SOLIS DOYLE: No, I think that's right. I think that's right. As the -- I think he doesn't -- he doesn't really know who his political identity yet. He doesn't know if he's sort of like Sanders. If he's a mix between Sanders and Clinton. He doesn't -- he's just not fully formed --
AXELROD: Well he should -- he should --
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Bernie is winning the youth vote, that's why.
(CROSSTALK)
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I think the young guy is not winning among young guys and gals. The oldest person in the race is doing the best with the young people.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): But he's saying this but he ceded that territory to him.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): -- Bernie's terrific, he's run a great --
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): The only real opening in this race was to Hillary Clinton's left, because of the way in which the Democratic Party base has been moving to the left, especially on economic issues. Once Bernie Sanders sealed that up, I just think there wasn't a place for Martin O'Malley.
BLITZER: I'm going to play another clip. The question was asked Senator Sanders who says he wants to raise taxes on the richer Americans, right now their top income bracket, 39.6 percent and he was asked how high would you raise that rate if you were president, if you had your way, listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
SANDERS: We pay for this, like due demanding, that the wealthiest people and the largest corporations have gotten away with murder for years, start paying their fair share.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Let's get specific, how high would you go? You've said before you would go above 50 percent, how high?
SANDERS: We haven't come up with an exact number yet, but it will not be as high as the number under Dwight D. Eisenhower which was 90 percent. But it will be -- I'm not that much of a socialist compared to Eisenhower.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: Jeff Zeleny, was that smart to all of a sudden to recall the 90 percent tax rate. He says he's going to raise it above 50 from 39 percent, but he's not saying how high he will go, only saying it's not going to 90 percent.
SELENY: I guess we have a bit of a range here, but look, I think that was a very smart answer of him, because it -- it -- what he's trying to say is look, I'm the scariest person who's ever run for president, I'm okay. I'm okay.
It -- it was -- I think it was the first time the audience laughed because this is a very heavy debate at the beginning, given the gravity of everything that's going on in the world around us here. So I thought that answer was very, very smart for him, but you know, of course he's not going to get half of the country on that because they're afraid he's going to raise --
BLITZER: Recall that the highest tax rate was 70 percent under Eisenhower, at least at one point.
SELENY: Right, right.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): So you have the Democrats debating, you know, whether you want a 90 percent rate on wealthy Americans or a 70 percent rate.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Keep going, keep going. (UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): -- This is going to make S.E. very happy.
CUPP: Because it's like you're living in parallel universes here. You watch a Republican debate, it's completely --
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Although everybody seems to cite Ike.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Ike Eisenhower --
BLITZER: Stand by guys, just ahead, we're going to have that reality check on what Senator Bernie Sanders said about Iraq, about Afghanistan, war veterans with PTSD. Stay with us, much more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back, we're continuing to assess what happened at tonight's Democratic presidential debate. The subject of the minimum wage came up and I want to play this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
SANDERS: In the next few years we've got to move the minimum wage to a living wage, 15 bucks an hour and I apologize to nobody for that.
CLINTON: However, what Alan Krueger said in the piece is you're referring to is that if we went to $15.00 there are no international comparisons. That is why a support a $12.00 national Federal minimum wage. That is what the Democrats in the Senate have put forward as a proposal, but I do believe that is a minimum.
SANDERS: It should always be going up. With all due respect to Secretary Clinton --
CLINTON: -- you would index it to the median age.
SANDERS: Yeah.
CLINTON: Of course, you do the 12, and you would index it but I take --
O'MALLEY: I think we need to stop taking our advice from a columnist on Wall Street and start taking advice --
CLINTON: He's not on Wall Street --
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: Wall Street is a good issue to talk about.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
BLITZER: All right Patti Solis Doyle, you were a Clinton campaign manager, that debate over raising the nation's minimum wage, Bernie Sanders says it's got to be $15.00 an hour nationwide. Hillary Clinton says $12.00. SOLIS DOYLE: Right, well, Bernie Sanders supporters love Bernie
Sanders for that. But, you know, the rest of the Democratic Party feel that Alan Krueger has a lot of sway actually and she has the best policy, right and so she did quite well and I think she won that exchange.
CUPP: That was very heated because actually progressives are very mad at her for not joining Bernie Sanders and other progressives in asking for and demanding a $15.00 minimum rage -- wage. She would not have been as defensive as she was, if most of your party felt that $12.00 was sufficient actually.
BLITZER: It's about $7.50 right now, the minimum wage.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): It is. You could see when -- when Governor O'Malley -- maybe it was Senator Sanders was attacking Alan Krueger. Alan Krueger is a Princeton economist, was a chairman of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisors, never worked on Wall Street by the way. Not that is disqualifying to actually know something about markets.
But Alan never did and you could see Hillary get annoyed by that and this is where I get back to David's point about Jihad, there's something in the back of her head saying you know, I just might win, and so I need to make sure I don't support a policy that could hurt.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): If he was going -- if he was going to win this debate he should have won that exchange big because most Democrats actually agree with him. It's another example of him not really closing. He didn't really go for the jugular on that.
BLITZER: Our reality check team has been looking at the facts behind some of the candidates' claims tonight. Let's bring in Tom Foreman. He's got a closer look. What are you seeing Tom?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's one in particular, you know, Hillary Clinton was being attacked numerous times over this idea that she voted for the Iraq war. She now says it is a mistake, but Bernie Sanders did not want to let her off so easily, because he said there are long-term consequences to decisions like that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
CLINTON: Senator --
SANDERS: When you talk about the long-term consequences of war, let's talk about the men and women who came home from war. The 500,000 who came home with PTSD and traumatic brain injury.
(END VIDEOPLAY)
FOREMAN: Now is that really possible, that's a massive number out there, but the truth is Veteran's Affairs group looked at this and said that their independent study is it true that this many people who were in Iraq and Afghanistan may have had some level of some sort traumatic injury or brain injury or something like this. And in fact, they concluded it was true and you can match it up the
math with all the people who have been over there, a couple million or more and we have to say that actually what Bernie Sanders had to say about all this, and when he confronted on it, yeah, 500,000 combat troops did come with PTSD, that claim is true.
BLITZER: Bernie Sanders is the former chairman of the Senate Veteran's Affairs Committee so he obviously knows this subject. Up next, very sharp exchanges as the Democratic presidential candidates talk about guns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'MALLEY: The truth of the matter is, net immigration from Mexico last year was zero. Fact check me. Go ahead, check it out.
BLITZER: All right, so we decided to go check it out. Tom Foreman, what did you find out?
FOREMAN: I love it when they say fact check me, but he was in very safe territory here. Bottom line is the Pew Research Center found that in 2012, the number of people coming in from Mexico and the number going back to Mexico had already zeroed out. There was no real immigration problem, people coming into the country illegally by 2012.
It's actually dropped lower than that, so you can argue that he's incorrect in that the problem really doesn't exist now but as a bottom line, Wolf, what he said is true.
BLITZER: Thanks very much Tom. Patti Solis Doyle, you know, a lot of Latinos have been upset at the Obama administration as President Obama for deporting more than 2 million people since taking office. He's even been called by some Latinos as deporter in chief. How do you deal with that problem going forward?
SOLIS DOYLE: For -- well, look he's also used executive action to keep people here. Keep the dreamers here. I know in court it was overturned but he's going to take it the Supreme Court. I think he has a very good record on immigration and I think Hillary agrees with that and she's going to go even further on it.
And compared to everybody on the Republican side, it's fantastic. So I think, you know, Hispanics are going to vote Democratic.
BLITZER: Another key issue, guns and there was this exchange. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOPLAY)
O'MALLEY: Secretary Clinton, you've been on three sides of this. When you ran in 2000 you said that we needed federal robust regulations. Then, in 2008 you were portraying yourself as Annie Oakley and saying that we don't need those regulations on the federal level. And now you're coming back around here.
So John, there's a big difference between leading by polls and leading with principle. We got it done in my state by leading with principle and that's what we need to do as a party for comprehensive gun safety.
SANDERS: With all due respect -- I think it's fair to say that Baltimore is not now one of the safest cities in America. But the issue is --
O'MALLEY: It's a lot safer -- we saved a lot of lives along the way Senator.
SANDERS: The issue, I believe, and I believe this honestly, and I don't know that there's much difference on guns between us, but I believe, coming from a state that has virtually no gun control, I believe that I am in position to reach out to the 60 or 70 percent of the American people who agree with us on those issues.
The problem is people all over this country, not you Secretary Clinton, are shouting at each other. And what we need to do is to bring people together to work on the agreement where there is broad consensus and that's what I intend --
(CROSSTALK)
O'MALLEY: I'd like to take a matter of personal privilege here --
CLINTON: -- Senator, there is broad consensus, 92 percent in the most recent poll of Americans want gun safety measures.
SANDERS: Absolutely.
CLINTON: And 85 percent of gun owners agree.
SANDERS: Yes.
CLINTON: We've got the consensus, what we're lacking is political leadership.
SANDERS: Yes.
BLITZER: Gloria (ph) you spent time with Bernie Sanders last week. Is this an area where he potentially, for Democrats and Liberals, he's vulnerable?
GLORIA (PH): Yeah, he is in a Democratic primary and I just love, I must say, listening to candidates talk about polling as if that's what makes them decide what to believe. You know, O'Malley was right about Hillary Clinton, in Annie Oakley, remember that?
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Yeah, I was there. Yes.
GLORIA (PH): You remember that? Okay. And the Democratic Party has now shifted on guns and because the polling has shifted on guns and they're all falling over each other to support more robust gun control. It wasn't always that way.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I see --
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): I thought -- I -- I -- I thought it was amazing that Hillary Clinton was scolding Bernie Sanders for not having political courage on guns when Bernie Sanders says, he said lost an election because of some of the not popular positions he has taken on guns over the course of his very long career.
Meanwhile no one in Congress has been able to get anything done on guns, and I'm -- I'm certainly different side of this argument, but for the past decade. So I think her anger was a bit misplaced and I actually think Bernie Sanders made a good case for why he's uniquely positioned --
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Well, let's be clear, I mean, this is a vulnerability for him among Democrats and yes he lost an election as he said in '88 based on that position. But when he got to the Congress and had a chance to in '94 to vote on these things, he went against the gun safety position on some of those --
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): -- for his constituents.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): -- and she knows this is a vulnerability for him and she is driving it.
BLITZER: Is this debate tonight going to make much difference?
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): No, no difference -- In my view, the race is the same today as it will be tomorrow and there's very little change as a result of what we saw tonight.
BLITZER: No real damage to Hillary Clinton?
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): No, I don't think so.
BLITZER: Okay, guys. Thanks very much. That's it for me. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Our live coverage of the terror attacks in Paris continue with John Vause and Isha Sesay right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
