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Paris Attacks. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 17, 2015 - 15:00   ET




HALA GORANI, HOST: Welcome everybody, I'm Hala Gorani, we continue our special coverage of the Paris attacks. Thanks for joining us for this

special edition of The World Right Now. I'm coming to you live from the (inaudible), a place that has become essentially a site of memory, and

defiance for this city in the wake of the attacks on Friday.

And we start with a pretty stunning development. Not here in France, but instead in Germany. Police in Hanover just evacuated a major football

stadium because they say there were "serious plans for explosions" according to the police chief there who spoke to a public broadcaster.


GORANI: Now that stadium, this happened really at the last moment. Because that stadium was set to host the match between Germany and the Netherlands

this evening. Here you can see fans leaving the stadium. They are being ushered out. The German Chancellor Angela Merkel was expected to be there.

Let's go live to Max Foster, he's at London's Wembley stadium, where France are playing England amid quite heightened security there.


GORANI: Tell us more about what happened in Hanover and why police say they felt the need to evacuate the stadium, Max.

MAX FOSTER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're expecting a full press conference hosted by the local interior minister to get more

information. But the local police chief has said a few words. It was indeed a terror threat. And they say it's based on credible information. Here's a

quote, "we had concrete evidence that someone wanted to set off an explosive device inside the stadium:, that's in Hanover.


FOSTER: And the tip-off came from federal authorities. So, they clearly found something that justified this clearance of the stadium about an hour

and a half before the match against the Netherlands was due to start. We also know that the German team was taken to a safe zone, and under police

custody. So a very serious incident unfolding in Hanover, but thankfully, Hala, nothing happened. It does seem on this information that we have so

far, that something serious was planned, but it was foiled by the police.


GORANI: All right. It does sound like it was something tangible perhaps that authorities were going on. Let us go to - you're at Wembley, the

friendly game between France and England is going ahead, quite a symbolic gesture there from organizers. And there was a pre-game tribute that

involved singing the La Marseillaise, the French national anthem before kickoff, let's listen to that.




GORANI: There it is, the French team, the England team, all the fans, in fact the lyrics of La Marseillaise distributed in some newspapers as well.

But heightened security, Max, at this game. Tell us about that.

FOSTER: Yes, very visible policing. Armed police as well which wouldn't normally be common. We're told by the head of the police here in London

that it wasn't because they were concerned or had intelligence of a threat was planned here, but they wanted to reassure the public that they were

doing the right thing in turning up in solidarity with the French.

And there was great moments down there. I have to say I was expecting it to be somber, Hala, as people sort of joined forces with French fans, normally

a big rivalry as you know.


FOSTER: But actually it was a party atmosphere. A sense of defiance, lots of people with French flags and brilliantly, a lot of English fans

grappling with the words of the French national anthem trying to learn the words and certainly singing it. If not well, then well full heart's



FOSTER: It was a joyous atmosphere down there and it really showed I think what the French wanted out of this that Britain was in solidarity with

France on this occasion. They're going to go ahead with the match. And thankfully, no incidents here unlike what's happened in Hanover today. But

thankfully everyone's safe there.


GORANI: Right. Absolutely, Max foster, thanks very much, live at Wembley. Interesting to see the French team there locking arms with the England team

singing the French national anthem.

Now there's a possible big break in the investigation into the Paris attacks here. A cell phone has been recovered that's believed to belong to

one of the attackers. It contained a message. And meanwhile a source close to the investigation is telling CNN that there's a strong presumption that

there's another suspect linked to these attacks and that that suspect is still at large.

So this is suspect number two. Number one, is one we've been talking to you about for a few days. Salah Abdeslam who we know has been on the loose. One

of his brothers blew himself up during those attacks.


GORANI: Police in Paris say they found a car rented by Abdeslam, it had Belgium license plates. He also allegedly rented a hotel room where police

say they found syringes that may have been used to make explosives.

Many strands to this investigation. Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is here to bring them all together.


GORANI: So two suspects possibly on the loose, many more identified, tell us about the latest. And you've been looking into where some intelligence

failures have happened.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is because it's becoming clear as the investigation goes on that at least six of the

attackers here had been to Syria. That several of them were already under observation by French police.

What we're beginning to see is the details emerging that begin to show where perhaps there were intelligence failures. The apartment of the

outskirts of Paris today is perhaps one place to start and look and see where the failures began.

GORANI: And let's look at your report now, Nic.


ROBERTSON: A room in a budget hotel in a Paris suburb, a rented apartment a few miles away. The killers pre-attacked staging, apparently hiding in

plain sight before their deadly assault.

(NICOLAS COMLE, POLICE UNION CHIEF): [Speaking foreign language ]

ROBERTSON: Incredibly, at least three of the attackers were known to police. So the question for this season police union chief, how were they

able to plot without raising any red flags? One reason, not enough police and security services.

(COMLE): If you want to survey one person, you have to make 15 or 20 police officers.

ROBERTSON: As the investigation gathers pace, more evidence is emerging of other gaping intelligence failures. Not just here in France, but between

France and its allies.

Recriminations are already beginning.

BERNARD CASANOVA, FRENCH INTERIOR MINISTER: (As Translated) Those ones who were in Belgium and have helped to organize and carry out these attacks

were not known to the French intelligence services.

ROBERTSON: Frustrations that Belgium, where several attackers lived, wasn't helping enough.

JEAN-LOUIS BRUGUIERE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know we don't have any legal or technical capability to make surveillance in a - in a sub country.

ROBERTSON: Belgium's justice minister admits, they didn't know these terrorists had returned from Syria and says, Belgium has divisions and

issues that hamper police work. But the problems are internal French as well. Six of the attackers had been to Syria. At least three of them were

known radicals.

Samy Amimour, a Bataclan theater gunman had tried to go to Yemen in 2012, was on an international arrest warrant. Another of the Bataclan murderers,

Ismael Omar Mostefai, identified by CNN affiliate BFM T.V. in this 2009 rap video was allegedly radicalized at this quiet middleclass mosque.

A few years later was also one of French watch list, but was still able to sneak off to turkey. The last stop on the Jihadi superhighway before Syria.

Turkish officials say Mostefai entered Turkey in 2013 but he wasn't on any watch list. They also say they wrote twice to French officials asking for

information about him, but say they got no answer. French officials haven't commented.

It's not the way world leaders said intelligence gathering to beat ISIS would be. Only a year ago, NATO leaders, French, Belgian, and Turkish

included vowed to double down on intelligence-sharing to tackle ISIS.

A few months later, the "Charlie Hebdo" attack highlighted intelligence failures. The two gunmen had been on a watch list; and ignored. Now, the

French President is vowing change.


FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRENCH PRESIDENT: (As translated) 5,000 additional jobs will be created so as to bring total to 10,000 in security in five years.

ROBERTSON: But with an estimated 11,000 people in France alone listed as radicals, 5,000 with suspect ties to terrorism, the task of reform is huge.


ROBERTSON: So I think this is what we're going to see more of as we get more details, Hala, we're going to see in some places this connection with

Belgium, the sort of way that there was perhaps better cooperation. That perhaps Belgium officials could do more internally there. The French could

perhaps have better connections and communications with the Turkish authorities.

But the fundamental of this always comes down to with intelligence agencies, it comes down to trust, but the NATO leaders pledged that this

was going to happen. So it is a very slow work in progress. Terrible tragedies seem to happen along the way.

GORANI: Absolutely. There are many layers to this, internally how does the country respond? Externally we know that today there were more airstrikes,

French airstrikes in Syria.

Still to come this evening;


GORANI: Parisians are living on edge as French authorities try to rise to the challenge. France's former defense minister joins me live to discuss

the threats and the responses.

That and more coming up on CNN.







GORANI: Welcome back everybody, we continue our special coverage of the terrorist attacks.

Now the political will to defeat ISIS seems to be ramping up in the wake of what happened on Friday.


GORANI: French war planes have been dropping bombs on the extremist group, the headquarters, Raqqa, in Syria, that's the self-proclaimed capital of

Daesh. President Francois Hollande says he will travel the world, on his campaign to destroy the terrorist group. He plans to bolster coordination

on trips to Washington on Tuesday. He is going to Moscow on Thursday. And Russia is confirming that a bomb brought down a Metrojet plane killing all

224 people on board.

ISIS had already claimed responsibility, and that prompted the defense ministry to double its own air strikes in Syria. So you have a lot of

activity in the skies over ISIS strongholds. The Russian President made this vow. Listen.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: (As translated) we will find them in any spot on the planet, and we will punish them.


GORANI: Vladimir Putin. A source close to the investigation is telling CNN there was a strong presumption that there are two suspects at large, not

just one. So all of Europe is on edge, no place is more tense frankly than Paris. Although things have been getting back to normal it has to be said


We want to get more on how people are living and also the military challenges that France is facing. I'm joined now by the former French

Defense Minister, Alain Richard. Thank you very much, Senator, for joining us.


GORANI: We were hearing a third day of intensified French air strikes on Syria. Will it make a difference?

RICHARD: A slow one. It's going to need months, certainly. And intensifying strikes from all partners, but even with these strikes, my personal modest

assessment that we can, as President Obama said, weaken them, we can make their operations more difficult. But then if we want to suppress the

center of operations and initiatives they represent worldwide, then we have to get closer to this (inaudible).

GORANI: Closer how? Not from the air? Is it possible to conduct an operation with the goal, the stated goal of destroying ISIS, only from the


RICHARD: My personal assessment is no. But, it's very different if you have the possibility to converge with several forces, including local forces, of



RICHARD: And with a strong air preparation, or if you do it from scratch. So I'm afraid it's going to take some more months, but what is changing

right now is Vienna, basically.

GORANI: Right. The political process?

RICHARD: The closure of political - closure of political convergence with the main actors.


RICHARD: It's not complete yet, and certainly not satisfactorily for us.

GORANI: You have some analysts who say if you want to really defeat Daesh ISIS in Syria, it's not airstrikes, a few (inaudible) fighters, that's a

little pinprick. You have to go all the way back to 1991 when there was a huge coalition against Saddam Hussein and his invasion of Kuwait.


GORANI: You're talking hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground. That that's really the only military way to defeat them, do you agree or do you


RICHARD: Partly. Because, you know, this sort of normal factor of an assailant, against the one defendant is barely four to five to one, four,

five, to one. Or, in my view, the military's real strength of -- is probably less than 50,000 people.


RICHARD: So it's not the same dimension as the Iraqi army -- armed forces 25 years ago.


RICHARD: But it's true that you have to make a larger coalition with several components on earth certainly.

GORANI: But they may have -

RICHARD: -- it's not real now -

GORANI: -- it may not be a conventional army, but they're holding so much territory, they may not be expanding, but they're not retreating.


GORANI: They're holding Raqqa, they're holding Mosul, they're sending their fighters back to the streets of Paris to murder French people in concert


RICHARD: Exactly. So the problem is really to be able to disorganize them more. Because they're territorial extension can also be a weakness because

they don't have the people. They don't have the frame to control completely such a territory. Of course, they (inaudible) by terror up to a point --


GORANI: The definition of asymmetrical warfare when you send a young man to blow himself up.

RICHARD: Exactly. But if there is an organized attack of several forces, which can really complement each other, they are vulnerable. But it's going

to take some more time to read the necessary agreements, of course.

GORANI: Of course and we know --

RICHARD: -- so we have to be patient.

GORANI: -- we know Francois Hollande is going to Washington, Moscow.

RICHARD: Exactly.

GORANI: Senator Alain Richard, the Former French Defense Minister, as well, thank you very much for joining us on CNN, we really appreciate your time

this evening.

A lot more to come tonight as imam's lay flowers to remember the victims.


GORANI: I'll be speaking to an expert, Gilles Kepel a very significant expert in this country on radical Islamism to tackle extremism here in

France. What does he think? We'll have more after this.





GORANI: All right. We are live in Paris. Let's bring you more on the breaking news in the last hour from Germany.


GORANI: Police in Hanover evacuated a major football stadium because they say there were "serious plans for explosions," according to the regional

police chief. He spoke to a public broadcaster there.

Now, Angela Merkel was expected to be at that game between Germany and the Netherlands, it has now been completely canceled. And you're seeing images

there of people evacuating the stadium.


GORANI: Several of Friday night's attackers are believed to be French nationals who went to Syria and joined ISIS and trained there. And they

aren't the only ones.


GORANI: Around 570 French nationals are in Iraq and Syria with ISIS, according to the French Interior Ministry. That is the largest source of

Jihadis from Europe. I should say one of the largest. I'm not exactly sure we can call it the largest right now.

So let's bring Gilles Kepel, he's a French political scientist, he's the author the of the book "The War from Muslim Minds." He joins me now from

our Paris Bureau. We're really happy to have you on the program, Gilles Kepel.

Let me ask you first of all, what does ISIS want right now by conducting operations such as the ones that they were, we believe, able to execute on

Friday? What do they want, exactly?

GILLES KEPEL, FRENCH POLITICAL SCIENTISTS: Well, you know, ISIS as opposed to Al Qaeda that was targeting America is primarily targeting Europe. To

them, Europe is the soft underbelly of the west, and what they want is to break up the European society so that there would be a civil war in

European countries.

And they believe they can recruit young, disenfranchised Muslims so that they will wage Jihad on the shoulders of Europe. This is their aim. And,

you know, they were active in Paris in January where there was the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks, and where they tried to, sort of modernize a number of

young people with them.

But now, with what happened last Friday, it's quite different. Because actually in January, they targeted people whom they could say were either

"Islamaphobes", or Jews, or (inaudible), or what have you.

On Friday the 13th of November, there was a sort of indiscriminate attack, they had suicide bombers which was a primer in French -- on French soil.

And therefore, their attempt to have people identify with them was quite contradicted by fact when you look at the social networks, for instance,

you have very, very little people now that identify with them, or that will find an excuse for the attacks as opposed to what we saw in January.

So, technically, the sort of -- it was a big success from their point of view because they have so many people dead. But strategically I'm not sure

they did not make a mistake.

GORANI: So, you're saying their aim is to ignite a civil war in a country like France, but you also added, you think they've made a mistake. Is that

correct? What do you mean by that?

KEPEL: Absolutely. Well because if they want - you know terrorism has a political economy of its own.

When you have blasts with attacks and so on and so forth. There are two aims. The first one is to terrorize the adversary, the population that you

want to hit. And the other one is to mobilize support. And the problem with what happened on Friday is that, they in a way, they succeed in

terrorizing the population, even though the French have reacted in a very united way.


KEPEL: And you know, people are still going out, and there's a big feeling of national identity, which I have never seen in my life. And -- but they

are unable to modernize a constituency, I think.

And you know, they killed everybody, I mean, in the 10th and the 11th arrondissement of Paris, this is a place where people -- young people go

out at night, it's a very mixed population. You have young people from post-colonial origin, North Africans, Jews, gays, straights, what have you.

And it's a sort of -- the people they kill they're a sample of French population at large or the Paris population at large.

So it makes them -- it's extremely difficult for them to build on that. And they -- you saw their communique, their (inaudible) which surprised to say

that, you know, they were fighting corruption on earth, and that this was a prostitution ring, and no-one believed that.


GORANI: But, Gilles Kepel, then what do you make of the response? I mean are authorities here responding in an appropriate way that will be

effective in stopping these --this group from sending recruits to attack civilians, murder civilians? Are they making any -- I mean, what do you

make of the response. Do you think it will be effective?

KEPEL: Well, you know, there are two ways to defeat them because they have two bases.

One is what they call the caliphate. I mean the stretch of land that stretches from Mosul to Palmyra more or less. And then they have their

(inaudible) and their correspondents in Europe.

And to them, the (inaudible) is a place which they look up to as a place for martyrdom. A place where - and they believe in their sort of ideology

that when Damascus falls, then it will be the beginning of the end for the rest of the world.


KEPEL: That Islam as they - as they see it is going to spread everywhere. So this provides for a sort of, an enormous emotional resource for them.

That's one thing. And if coalition of the willing, if i may say so, manages to eradicate the what we in French call (Daesh), what you call ISIS in

English, from this part of the world, their moral is going to be down for good.

[15:13: 14]

KEPEL: And as far as Europe is concerned, then, you know, there's another agenda. You have a number of disenfranchised people who believe that they

have no jobs and they appeal to (inaudible) phobia, racism, and so on and so forth.


KEPEL: And they believe that, you know, seeing themselves as ISIS martyrs is something which is going to change their status. But after Friday the

13th, as I said before, I think those things are changing. Because, you know, the role model of the suicide bomber who was set themselves up in the

10th arrondissement is not great. And this is, I think, this is quite a change. Because you know, I know there's a number of those people that

would be sympathizers, and the mood is not - is not really up.

GORANI: Gilles Kepel, we really appreciate your time. One of the foremost specialists on radical Jihadism. Thanks for joining us from Paris. We'll be

right back on CNN.

KEPEL: My pleasure.






GORANI: Welcome back, (inaudible) in Paris here.



GORANI: Authorities are working around the clock to find those responsible for Friday's attacks in Paris that killed at least 129 people. Of course

those who did not end up blowing themselves up, there were seven attackers on the night we're told. Seven were killed or blew themselves up.

There could be a big break. A cell phone has been recovered that is believed to belong to one of the attackers, and it contained a message to

the effect of OK, we're ready according to French officials.

Now a source close to the investigation also tells CNN there is a strong presumption that there are not just - that there are two suspects at large,

not just one.


GORANI: We had already known about one, Salah Abdeslam on the loose. One of his brothers blew himself up in the attack. Police in Paris say they found

a car rented by Abdeslam, it had Belgium license plates. He also allegedly rented a hotel room where police say they found syringes. The syringes may

have been used to make explosives.


GORANI: Also big news today, Russia says it is now certain that a plane crash claimed by ISIS was a terrorist act. It is saying that a bomb was

planted on-board that Russian passenger jet that exploded over Egypt last month killing 224 people.


GORANI: President Vladimir Putin is now vowing revenge. Matthew Chance joins me now from Moscow with details. And Matthew, the President is

saying, he'll find those responsible anywhere from anywhere that they may be hiding.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, anywhere on the planet is what he said. And he also said that the airstrikes in Syria

would not just continue, but they would be intensified and indeed that's what's been taking place over the course of the past 24 hours.

The Russian defense ministry saying that they've doubled the amount of airstrikes that they've carried out in the course of that time period, the

last 24 hour period. Including the use for the first time long-range strategic bombers to carry out strikes using cruise missiles against

targets inside Syria. ISIS of course amongst them, but also other rebel groups as well.

34 cruise missiles have been fired by the Russians over the course of the past 24 hours inside Syria. And so we're seeing sort of major upswing

escalation if you like of the Russian military intervention in Syria. In retribution for the attacks on that, the attack on that Metrojet plane

which as you mentioned has been confirmed as being a bomb attacked by the terrorist group.

GORANI: Yep. All right. Senior international correspondent Matthew Chance live in Moscow with the latest on that news that broke today.


GORANI: The French President Francois Hollande is going to be visiting both Moscow on Thursday and before that, Washington on Tuesday. He really wants

help from both those countries in a broader coalition against ISIS.


GORANI: Today, he got an unprecedented commitment from the European Union. France invoked a clause never before used in EU history that requires all

members to assist any EU state that is the victim of armed aggression on its soil.

Remember, Francois Hollande used very specific language saying that France is at war. France says that assistance could mean helping with air strikes

or supporting other operations. Let's get the latest on the fight against ISIS.

Nick Paton Walsh is following developments from Erbil in Iraq.


GORANI: So Russia is doubling its airstrikes, France, we understand, a third straight day of intensified air strikes. What impact, is it

measurable what impact this is having already?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just don't know. I mean we knew there is a vast amount of ordinance being

dropped on Raqqa. We presume the targets have been chosen carefully.

We are hearing from activists civilians are not being killed. But it begs the broader question; this what we're seeing in the skies over Raqqa is a

reaction, it's not a strategy. And a strategy is something that has to be applied to a battlefield that frankly is completely unrecognizable from

what it was merely six months ago. The options for a longer term military strategy, difficult to say the least.


WALSH: Raqqa, a world of repression, people can't leave, filmed only in secret. Now it's in the cross hairs of furious militaries, France, the

coalition, and even Russian cruise missiles. Clamber after Paris, the Sinai for a hard response, possibly yet more of the special forces that attacked

this ISIS jail in (inaudible). But will that work?

Raqqa is increasing the isolated to the east. The road to ISIS city Mosul has been cut by the Kurds taking Sinjar last week. ISIS seems to have

simply fled there. The Peshmerga hoping they can repeat this success in other towns.

To the north, the Syrian Kurds have taken much of the broader area, but they need the Turkish army to completely seal it if ISIS are to be further

starved the fighters and supplies.

The big question now is who moves in? These Kurds to the east often lack the heavy weapons they need. [ speaking foreign language ]. And they need

more Sunni Arab Syrians to fight with them like this pro-western group, as these are Sunni areas.


(inaudible) talk of western forces perhaps joining them on mass, but just to the east in Iraq, an Iranian militia, many of whom fought U.S. troops

years ago in the Iraq war. Remember that? They do.

As does a region and its chaos which many say unleashed the forces that became ISIS. That means, a full-on western occupation is unlikely, if not,

in this deeply hostile land a little fool-hardy.


WALSH: Now, there will be obviously a consistent public debate about what policy can possibly work, but the real key issue is that all the

certainties that people believe that used to be able to rely upon in Syria have changed, have shifted. There are so few reliable allies for what the

west really wants to do there and so many frankly hostile groups still fighting on the ground there who would never welcome a broader and western

military application there, Hala?

GORANI: All right. Nick Payton Walsh in Erbil. Our special coverage continues after this.







GORANI: All right. You're seeing (inaudible) people just broke into a spontaneous rendition of the national anthem, La Marseillaise, here just

moments ago. Still a very much a feeling that things have not come back to normal.


GORANI: There are people out on the streets, but really the atmosphere is one still of digesting the enormity of what happened on Friday evening.

Let's bring you more on that breaking news in the last hour from Germany.



GORANI: Police in Hanover say there were "serious plans for explosions" as they evacuated a major football stadium according to the regional police

chief who spoke to a public broadcaster.

Now, that stadium was just about to host a match between Germany and the Netherlands, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel was expected to be there.

The police chief said officials received concrete intelligence that an attack inside the stadium was planned.


GORANI: I don't know if our viewers are able to hear it, but there were some applause just now behind me. People still singing, very much a sense

togetherness in the wake of the attacks.

It's been four days, and authorities are still identifying bodies. 129 people died, almost an unimaginable number. Lynda Kinkade has more on who

were some of the victims.


LYNDA KINKADE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The violinist from Algeria, just 29 years of age, (inaudible) he was described as a great master of

music by the Algerian Music Organization.

He came to Paris to perfect his musical skills, at the (inaudible) one of the world's oldest universities. His life in music gone too soon.

(Inaudible) worked as a waiter in a historic district of Paris. He took the night off from work to celebrate a friend's birthday at a bistro where he

was killed. According to the New York Times, the 33-year-old hoped to become an elementary schoolteacher. A coworker described him as a friend

always there to cheer up everyone else.

French citizen (Arianne inaudible) was an intern for French publisher Urban Comics. The 24 received a degree in literature in 2009 from the University

of Strasbourg, and was studying for her Master's degree. Arianne had a passion for using comic books to inspire young readers.

(Inaudible) loved to draw since she was a small child. The 33-year-old was from St. Tropez in the South of France. Her sister told the New York Times

that (inaudible) was fond of music and culture. She played the guitar and piano.

One Alberto Gonzalez Gurito was the only known Spanish national killed in the attacks. The Spanish newspapers (El Mundo) reports he had been living

in Paris for two years. He was an engineer for a French electricity company, and was an expert in nuclear energy. He and his wife, also an

engineer, got married last summer. There were both inside the Bataclan concert hall, his wife managed to escape, but he was not so lucky.

35-year-old (Elen Murial) was a wife and mother to a 17 month old son. Her husband posted a hard breaking and poignant message on Facebook, addressed

to the terrorists that murdered her. Friday night you stole the life of an exceptional being, he wrote. The love of my life, the mother of my son, but

you won't have my hatred. You are dead souls.

These were people with lives, with families, these are mothers and daughters, wives and husbands, lives cut short by an unimaginable tragedy.

Lynda Kinkade, CNN




GORANI: All right. There are many conflicting emotions here of course across the city and of course across the country. There's grief, there's

also grit, there's anger, there's defiance, there is a sense of fear. It has to be said, they're all coming together as Parisians embrace life

though instead of death.

In fact, there's a musical group that just erupted into some sort of rendition of, you know, a pretty, kind of like -- kind of feel like

dancing. But this is what it's about. You know here are people who are saying we're not going to be afraid. They're heading back to bistros,

they're making sure that people who work in them keep their jobs.

And the ever defiant "Charlie Hebdo" itself a victim of terrorist violence in January hits the newsstands tomorrow.


GORANI: This kind of herculean resilience comes at a time when many experts have been calling Friday's tragedy a game changer.

News Week for One says the Paris strike is a tactical change in terrorist strategies. And the world has past the tipping point. Here with me is

Janine Di Giovanni, Middle East editor from Newsweek magazine.



GORANI: Thanks Janine. It's good to see you, but we always seem to be, you know, having these conversations in the wake of terrible attacks.

Before we talk about ISIS and the Middle East and how France is responding, I wanted to get your take on -- did you see the "Charlie Hebdo" cover? So I

wanted to show our viewers that.


GORANI: It is essentially, the cover is -- they have guns, but we have champagne and then it's a kind of a cartoon character with bullet holes and

the champagne is coming out of the bullet holes. What did you think of that?

GIOVANNI: Well, you and I were standing in pretty much the same spot in January. Freezing, and talking about how Paris, the resilience that the

French had in the aftermath of this terrible attack.

Hala, that was such, when you think about it now, that was a targeted assassination.


GIOVANNI: 13 journalists killed. This is something that strikes much harder at the soul of Paris -- of France. I mean this is something very


GORANI: Yes, because they targeted the lifestyle, the way of life here in Paris, music, bistros, cafes et cetera, and random targets as well.

GIOVANNI: I think also the thing that for me is the most alarming is that what ISIS is after. They detest cohesion in society. They detest societies

that are together that are mixed that they -- and what could anger them the most are probably the photographs of Germany under Angela Merkel welcoming

the refugees coming in. This is what they don't want.

So my fear now, my biggest fear is the retaliation that we are taking against ISIS, which plays into exactly what they want.

GORANI: But what choice does France have here? Because militarily you either defeat that group, take away its self-proclaimed capital and show

these potential recruits that they've been weakened on the battlefield. Right? Because that's part of the appeal.

GIOVANNI: Yes, but you know the Middle East better than anyone, and you know we've both worked there for many, many years. We let ISIS evolve. We

ignored it. I'm not - I am not by any means putting this on the Obama administration, I think it's an intelligence faux pas --

GORANI: There may be -- there may be truth, but now the reality is they control and hold all this territory and they are attracting all these

young, sort of brain-washed, vulnerable Muslim men, they come back and murder civilians in a concert hall.

GIOVANNI: The most complicated thing right now is to distill the recruitment process. How do you counter violent extremism? Hugely

important. Especially now because it's very attractive actually.

If you are a young, Muslim, growing up in France, and you're French, you are French-born, but you have no access to this actually. You live in the

suburbs, and I think this is very hard for American viewers to understand that there is a huge, huge division between being French, I'm French,

you're French, I think. We're French.


GORANI: Somewhat.

GIOVANNI: But we're not, you know - we can -- I can go to the great universities. I can get a job.

GORANI: But listen - but Janine, some people will say to you look, discrimination against Muslim job applicants, we all know that's true,

we've seen studies that the Muslim community in this country feels sort of separated from the mainstream, discriminated against, that's all true. But

there are four million Muslims here and they are not -- they're integrated, they're French citizens, they love their country.

GIOVANNI: They're not integrated. Hala, they can't get apartments, they can't get jobs, they can't go to the big universities, which are basically

the feeding points to government and important civil servant positions. That does not happen.

As my son was born in 2004, I wanted to call in Lounes, after (Lounes Matoub) the great Algerian dissident singer who was murdered. I was told

very specifically by French friends do not call your son Lounes, because he won't get a job or an apartment.

GORANI: All right, well -

GIOVANNI: -- it's as basic as that.

GORANI: Well I've got to ask you because we have 30 seconds. So in 30 seconds, tell me, essentially, when you're here what goes through your

mind, living in Paris?

GIOVANNI: I'm scared. I feel vulnerable. The border, border issue is very frightening for me. I've lived through many wars as you have as well, but I

just feel vulnerable right now. The German stadium, I have to send my son to school. I feel vulnerable.

GORANI: Janine Di Giovanni, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. It's a sad occasion, but it's always good talking to you.

This has been the World Right Now, I'm Hala Gorani, stay with us, there's a lot more to come here from Paris.