Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

How French Police Knew About Saint-Denis Apartments; Search Continues for Paris Attack Mastermind Abbaoud; What Does Identifying Individuals In Paris Raid Involve; Abbaoud, Abdeslam from Mollenbeek Area in Belgium; 5 Men Allegedly from Syria with Fake Passports Detained at Honduran Airport. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:30:00] SUSAN PELLET, WITNESS: I heard the burst of gunfire around 4:30 in the morning and followed by, like, bomb, bomb, bomb. So I think it was grenades, one after another. It was horrible.

Sorry.

REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION)

PELLET: I kept lying on the floor because I was scared to be hit by the stray bullets. So I didn't sleep since 4:30 in the morning. The raid has been finished, but still we're not allowed to be out.

No work today. Just stay home. It's really terrible.

Just panic. Just panic. I couldn't believe it. So really unbelievable knowing that, you know, just behind your building someone could blow up any time. So it was a horrible feeling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: With me now, CNN International anchor, Hala Gorani.

Hala, bring us up to speed. How did French police know about these apartments in Saint-Denis?

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Over the last few days we know they found a car that they believed one of the attackers used. They also found a cell phone at the Bataclan site, the concert site, the site of the worst of the massacres Friday evening. All of this intelligence led them to these apartments in Saint-Denis. It's a suburb of Paris. A major military operation, 5,000 rounds of ammunition in the space of several hours were used. We know there are seven individuals under arrest being questioned right now, two at least dead.

But the scene we understand inside is going to take a very long time to process. It's not just that the bodies in some cases are in a space that is difficult to sort of -- I mean, you can't -- to be perfectly blunt, you can't carry them out to a forensic lab. But also they have to use explosives and special weapons to get inside the apartment. The prosecutor has said that it was a reinforced door and in order to get in they had to use very heavy weaponry. You saw the outside of the building, all the glass blown out, rubble everywhere. It will take them a long time to go through all that evidence.

TAPPER: Hala, of the seven or eight who have been arrested, what do we know about them?

GORANI: We know that at least three of them were in the apartment so that's extremely important because they were in direct contact, close proximity to the two dead, including that female suicide bomber, and another suspected terrorist who died as a result of the grenade attack. Others were outside. They were the owners -- or the person who had the key to the apartment and one of his associates as well. They're going to want to talk to them because they want to know, listen, what did you know about these people who came here? Police and prosecutors are saying this is a major attack that was thwarted, did you know what they were up to?

TAPPER: And help clear something up for us. We also heard there was a raid on a church nearby. What was that about?

GORANI: That was a false alarm in the end, but dramatic pictures nonetheless. Saint-Denis Basilica, the church is a burial ground for a king, an extremely old Gothic building. I'm sure our viewers saw throughout the day, if they've been following it, reporters -- they ended up busting a door, thought there was a weapons cache inside. There were report that's a photographer had gone up to the roof. Perhaps he was confused with a gunman. In the end, it yielded nothing but a broken door and dramatic pictures.

TAPPER: Glad nothing was there.

Hala, thanks so much.

Brooke, back to you in Washington, D.C.

[14:33:36] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Hala and Jake, thank you so much.

We are learning more about the terror ringleader's ties to Syria specifically. CNN is live on the ground there, in country. We will take you there after this quick break.

Also ahead, eight terror suspects are in custody. How are French officials planning to interrogate all of them? Former assistant director of the FBI, Bill Gavin, who worked on the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, joins me after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Obviously, the intense global search to find the suspected ringleader in Paris terrorist attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is on. It's unclear if he was killed in the raids overnight in Paris. There was suspicion he was in Syria with the leader of ISIS, but now there's an indication he could still be in France. Our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, has done

extensive reporting on him. He joins me now live from inside of Syria.

Nick, I've been watching your reporting all day. I want you to talk to me about what you know about his past and specifically the fact that apparently he was able to move back and forth between Syria and France undetected. Has to be concerning for Western Intel.

[14:34:10] NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly. We should point out we don't precisely know his whereabouts and know 100 percent if he got successfully to Europe ahead of this raid. Back in October, there was suggestions that perhaps an air strike in Raqqa may have killed him. In fact, he sort of went radio silent for a bit leading to speculation he may have died. That may well not be the case according to all the information coming out of Paris right now.

But his history with the Islamic State began most reports seem in early 2014, pretty near the beginning of it as an organization, in fact. It was getting under way. He was said in fact to have been able to persuade his 13-year-old brother, Unis, to join him in Syria on what they refer to as jihad earning the revulsion media reports suggest of his parents. He also has been pictured in is propaganda, notably once dragging corpses behind a truck. Also being pictured alongside two other jihadists killed in a raid in Belgium in January.

[14:40:19]Quite, his moves this year aren't clear. He was certainly pictured in is propaganda magazine in February in Syria. And, in fact, they are saying how easy it was for him to move around and how he had yet to be intercepted. But the precise movements after that are not clear. Obviously, because of the speculation or reports that he is somehow in Paris or Europe again. If that were the case, that would be quite terrifying. This is a high profile individual, Brooke. Someone who appeared very publicly and regularly in ISIS propaganda. They all the same if that is the case managed to get himself back into Europe undetected -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: They have to find him. They're working on it.

Nick Paton Walsh live inside of Syria. Thanks to you.

Back to Paris now to my colleague, Jake Tapper.

TAPPER: Thanks, Brooke.

Just moments ago, the French prosecutor detailed just how dangerous and difficult the conditions were for police as they raided a third- floor apartment in northern Paris. Officers firing 5,000 rounds. Five of the individuals were wounded. The shootout alone lasted an hour. Bystanders captured some of the siege on camera. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining me now, Bill Gavin. He was the former assistant director of the FBI in New York during the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

Bill, thanks for joining us.

The prosecutor, today, just a few moments ago, spoke about trying to identify several suspects from the raid, two dead, others alive. What does that involve, identifying these individuals? Let's start with the ones who are alive.

BILL GAVIN, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: The ones who are alive, of course, there will be interrogation techniques. They'll be able to do diplomat fingerprints, DNA. But the interview techniques will be all- important. And while the French, I'm sure, have some sophistication in interviewing, they can bring to bear the information that the FBI, CIA have in producing some results to keep along with what should be done with any prisoner taken in a terrorism attack like this.

TAPPER: Eight suspects in custody, Bill. How do French authorities typically extract information from individuals like this, especially when timing is so critical with so many suspicions of active plots going on right now?

GAVIN: First of all, all individuals who are in custody I'm sure will be given the chance to voluntarily talk with authorities. But, as you say, it's -- the exigent circumstances here are terrific and they want that information as rapidly as they can get it to lead to other individuals or to other plots to destroy other parts of the city. They need to talk to these individuals. They will increase the pressure in order to induce these people to talk. There's no doubt about that.

BALDWIN: Tell us about the preparation of law enforcement to conduct a raid such as this. Obviously, these individuals don't necessarily have any fear of death. They use explosives. They are potentially heavily armed. How does that impact executing an operation like this, especially when there's such a time crunch, time pressure?

GAVIN: I think to begin with determining how they got there to get that address, I'm sure that the evidence response team sent from the FBI in New York to assist the French with obtaining information off that cell phone that was found at the nightclub was all-important. Secondly, the French have been ready to do something like this since Friday night. They have geared up. They're up to DefCon 5, getting ready to do something like this, and they're prepared. They want to make sure they have all the right armaments. They want to make sure they have all the right techniques. They have whatever they may need to breach the quarters where they may find these people. There are all kinds of things to go into preparation for something like this. But I can suspect that the French since Sunday have been very much available and ready to do something like this, and to continue. The bottom line is they can't let down their guard just because this raid is over. There will be other raids in France, and I'm afraid in Belgium and the U.K. and Germany and, unfortunately, in the United States as well.

[14:45:33] TAPPER: Bill, we're told that encryption apps were found on the phone that you referred to. How are investigators able to get through these encryption apps? Could there be a way for Smartphone makers to theoretically help law enforcement bypass the encryption messages without opening up consumers' risk to hackers or invasion of their privacy?

GAVIN: It's very difficult. There are techniques to take a phone like the one that was found to get through and find out what apps were used, when and to whom they were communicating, those kinds of things. The other thing is, in the manufacturer of these Smartphones and in any communication nowadays, particularly even with toys, Xbox and whatnot, that end to end encryption is devastating to law enforcement and to the intelligence agencies. There is just no way that we know of at this present time to get around that, other than have the manufacturers design a back door. They're suggesting a broken key technique, but that just takes too darn long to utilize. Particularly in a situation exigent situation, like they have in France right now. That end to end encryption needs to be addressed by the Congress of the United States and hopefully throughout the world because it is devastating to law enforcement and to intelligence agencies.

TAPPER: There will be a debate that we have here on CNN quite a bit in the coming days and weeks.

Bill Gavin, thank you so much.

Stay with us.

Breaking news now. Reports of five men from Syria, allegedly traveling with fake passports, detained at an airport in Honduras in the capital. This, according to a CNN affiliate. We'll have a live report on this breaking story when we come back.

You're watching CNN special live coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:57] BALDWIN: We know authorities in Brussels remain on high alert as this manhunt intensifies for the suspected ringleader of the Paris attacks and the so-called eighth fugitive. Abdelhamid Abaaoud is from the Mollenbeek area of Brussels where multiple raids have happened. Salah Abdeslam is also from the same area. Belgium's federal prosecutors says the ties between these two terrorists date back to 2011 when both men were serving time in prison together. Today, hundreds of people flooded this district in a massive peace rally here.

And that is where we have our CNN senior investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin.

Drew, just to be precise, we hear from the French prosecutor both of these two not among those arrested, they believe, at all in the overnight raids. Tell me more about the connections between these two. DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you

said, they spent about a month together in prison. They grew up here together. Mostly in the criminal element of what we're considering to be just a small enclave on the outside of Brussels. These men did know each other, and they know of each other. And it looks more and more like this entire ring was centered here in this district where they held this vigil today trying to show the world that they are with the rest of the world in this global fight against terrorism. But at the same time, officials are now finding more and more links back here to this one tiny little Muslim enclave where not only this terrorist plot may have been hatched but so many others have come from. And many terrorists know to come here, in fact, to buy their weapons. Not just because they're easy to buy, Brooke, but today we found out also they're relatively cheap. You can pick one up for about $1,000, we're told, on the black market for a Kalashnikov rifle. This is why the people came out today saying, hey, that's not us. But they have to deal with reality that this terror plot looks like it was completely organized right here in this little district on the outside of Brussels -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Tell me more about this district, Drew. You have to imagine you have investigators all throughout now. What are the challenges for them to get people to turn, to talk?

GRIFFIN: The big challenge is for generations now there has been a Muslim community here that has mostly young unemployed men, and they've developed many different criminal syndicates and kind of a black market attitude, because the unemployment that they face kind of fills that gap. So you have the criminal element. Then you have all of these other elements coming into this toxic soup which involves weapons, guns, illicit activity. Add to that any kind of radical Islamic ferment and you've got this explosion that takes place. That's what the police are dealing with.

The other thing they're dealing with is more nuanced, in that all of these Muslim communities are not one Muslim community. Moroccans, Pakistanis, Middle Easterners, Northern Africans all kind of have their own community within the community. And you have a small police force trying to penetrate each and every one of those. It becomes very, very difficult. The Belgian police have been criticized for it. They say they're going to step up their activity but really they've been behind the ball on trying to interject and getting involved in some of these plots.

[14:55:50] BALDWIN: Drew Griffin there in Brussels on the thread, the connections between this suspected ringleader and this eighth fugitive.

Drew Griffin, thank you so much.

And we now have breaking news I want to get right to you here. There are reports of five men, allegedly from Syria, traveling apparently with fake passports. They have been detained at the airport in the capital of Honduras. This is according to a CNN affiliate, vis-a-vis, a Honduran investigative official. We have a live report on that and the potential connection to the United States. You're watching CNN special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)