Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Police Raid in France. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[03:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... this morning. Helicopters, as you can see, the military, and those paramilitary and riot police, and others all around that building.

As we continue this coverage, I'm going to hand off now to John Berman and Hala Gorani, as we continue to wait and see whether the mastermind of this attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, was targeted, was got in this raid or what has been the net result of this operation so far.

HALA GORANI, CNN NEWSROOM SHOW HOST: All right. Christiane Amanpour, thanks very much. I'm Hala Gorani. John Berman is here as well.

A dramatic morning, John. A police raid, a massive operation in St- Denis. Less than 1 kilometer, 800 meters away from that football stadium, where two, three suicide bombers blew themselves up.

We understand, according to sources, three suspected terrorists killed, three police officers injured, potentially more people at large.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWSROOM SHOW CO-HOST: And now we understand a number of arrests made as well, maybe as many as five, one of the terrorist who is dead believed to be a woman who killed herself, blowing herself up with a suicide vest, interestingly, obviously, because of the devices that were used in the attacks here. And we know that this raid is currently ongoing right now, not over by any means.

GORANI: All right. Take a look at some of this dramatic video as we continue to cover the events in St-Denis. You can clearly hear gunfire, you can clearly hear detonation. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We should say one of the features of this raid, today, we need to tell you about is that one of the targets could have been Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who is the Belgium terrorist believed to have been the mastermind of these attacks. GORANI: Yes.

BERMAN: We do not know if he is among the dead. We do not know if he is among the arrested. We do know that they had information that he could be inside that apartment in St-Denis.

GORANI: Whatever happened this morning was dramatic. It was significant as well. Earlier, CNN's Atika Shubert was outside of that very apartmentg building from where shots were heard. She was reporting when the sound of explosions rang out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A very unusual scene here. A number of police with masks on, with balaclavas and armed bands that say police judiciare. These are the investigative police. They were looking around in the crowd here among the journalist moving now down the street.

They seem to be looking for something in particular, a number of male officers and female officer also moving down there. Again, we couldn't see any of them, they had their mask on, but very unusual that they were moving in the crowd here looking for something and have now moved down the street.

You can still see one of them here still operating, they're showing their photo to -- oh, and an explosion has just gone off. This is still very much an ongoing operation. That was quite a large explosion in that direction. A second one now. Just hold on. No gunfire that we can tell so far. A third explosion. Fourth. That was much larger.

Police asking them to move back. There are a number of military soldiers that are now being moved into the front as well. Again, John, and I should say this is very much an ongoing police operation at this point.

We know a number of suspects have been cornered, we don't know the exact number of who they are. That's another explosion that's just gone off, and another. This seems to be a series of them.

We don't know if these are controlled detonations or not. It's gone quiet for now. But very unusual scenes here we saw just to recap a number of those explosions we heard, we saw a number of (TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY)

[03:05:00] (TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY)

BERMAN: St-Denis of Paris here, north of downtown Paris, I should say. Atika, you have been there for several hours, set the scene for us right now, what are you seeing and what are you hearing?

SHUBERT: That the operation is coming to a close. I think officially it's still ongoing. But we can see the police are visibly much more relaxed now, the military trucks have moved on.

So, again, it does seem to be drawing down, with especially significant, though, is not only that -- did they have three suspects killed it seems, but three suspects arrested and in police custody, that's incredibly important.

In previous cases here in the Charlie Hebdo attack, all of the suspected terrorists were killed, either they ran into police gunfire or killed in a shoot out. So, now, what the police have is a treasure trove of information from these three suspects that they have brought in.

We don't know who those suspects are, is it the one that they were looking for, this alleged mastermind, Abdel -- Abdelhamid Abaaoud. We're still waiting for details. But this will be incredibly important, not just in determining how these attacks are carried out, but if there are any future terror plots that were in the works and whether they can now be thwarted, John.

BERMAN: Atika, we do not know the identity of the people taken into custody. Three people we believe taken into custody. What we do know from officials in France and in Belgium, by the way, that one of the possible targets of this raid was Abdelhamid Abaaoud. He is the Belgian terrorist believed to be the mastermind of the Paris attacks.

GORANI: Not just the Paris attacks, but several other attacks including the Paris train shooting which was thwarted by that American military...

BERMAN: Here.

GORANI: ... hero, Spencer Stone. So, this is someone who's been wanted for a long time. Do we know if he's one of the individuals who was in the apartment either killed or arrested, Atika?

SHUBERT: We do not know at this point, just that he was a target. We're waiting for police or prosecutors to confirm exactly who are the ones that were killed. It's very interesting, for example, that a woman with a suicide vest detonated herself inside the apartment, it now seems and who the three arrested are.

So, if it does turn out to be Abdelhamid Abaaoud, however, that would be extraordinary. This is an individual who is known on watch lists here, he went to Syria more than a year ago. He was known for hatching a number of terror plots.

And according to most recent intelligence, in May, he may have even faked his own death in Syria so that he could travel more easily into Europe. If that is true and if he is, in fact, the person who has hold up inside this -- during this operation, it would mean he was hiding in plain sight in the heart of Paris, John and Hala.

BERMAN: All right. Atika, stand by. See if you can find out any more about what's going on inside those apartments in that raid.

I want to bring in our senior international correspondent, Frederik Pleitgen, who was also with us, he is also in St-Denis, I believe nearby from where these raids. The operation is still ongoing, Fred, although, Atika said over the last few minutes she has seen the intensity die down some, what are you seeing?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's absolutely right. The intensity sort of sways a little bit. What we saw just a couple of minutes ago is some police officers, and I'll get out of your way for a second here so we can sort of, zoom down on that street.

So, the police officers they came out with their weapons drawn so telling people to go back inside. They've put up a very big cordon around this area, John, I can tell you that exactly on the other side of that (TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY)[00:04:06]

[03:10:00] PLEITGEN: Police have said you have to go back this far because they believe that the situation is still that tense. And right now we're going to have to sort of get out of your way, with just few police vehicles coming in, there is more reinforcements are being sent in by the police.

You can see the police vehicles sort of come by at this point in time. Just this you see riot police. They're wearing riot gear. These police officers as they come through here to send in further reinforcement.

And John, this is also something that we've been seeing is that, as we've been coming down here, this operation, as you said, has been going on since 4.30 a.m., so that's about, I would say about three and a half hours so far. There are still reinforcements pouring in and that really shows how big this operation is and how intense it is as well, John.

GORANI: All right, Fred, this is Hala. Describe the area. This is a very busy urban area. People have been told to stay home, schools are closed, public transport has been suspended. Tell us about this neighborhood in particular, St-Denis, north of Paris.

PLEITGEN: Yes. That's -- that's a very good point, Hala. It certainly has been and we've driven around the area a little bit and I confirm that there are Trans running, there is no public transport. We haven't seen any buses on the street either. I wouldn't necessarily say that people aren't leaving their houses.

If you go a couple of blocks farther down the street. There are people down the street there. They are being held up by the military and prevent them from going here. However, in the housing blocks that you see behind in the immediate area, where the search is going on, and I would say several blocks have been cordoned off.

Those people are either being taken out of their houses or being told to stay in their houses. Anybody who gets on the streets right now is being told in no uncertain terms to get out of that area. So, there are people going around here, there are people trying to get to work, of course, at this point in time.

However, of course, in the immediate area around where this operation is taking place, I can tell you that is absolutely under a complete lock down at this point in town and there's really an immense amount of forces on the street here and they are on with their weapons drawn. I mean, you can see that they have the guns at the ready. We saw some

police officers with machine guns just a couple of minutes ago telling someone to get off the streets immediately, simply because this operation is so big, and of course also because of some of the things that have happened during this operation, some of the gunfire that we've been hearing in the early morning hours, some of the explosions, some of what appeared to maybe have also been stun grenades as well.

We're hearing some screaming down that street. Again, the police officers sort of moving around, so you can see they're really trying to keep people away from that area to make sure that their operation is secure and to make sure that their operation is not inhibited by people who might get in the way.

And of course, they're also afraid that -- or concerned that there might still be some of the terrorists out there somewhere, not clear whether they know if they actually have everyone or if someone might still be around here. Hala.

BERMAN: A couple of other things, Fred, obviously this is the neighborhood where the Stade de France is, the soccer stadium where part of the attacks took place Friday night.

GORANI: And about 800 yards away.

BERMAN: And it's not far from where the abandoned car was found yesterday in the 18th arrondissement. So, this is a neighborhood where there has been a lot of activity associated with these attacks.

The streets obviously around where you are, Fred, obviously in the area of concern. Because we understand that they were people arrested on the streets or apprehended. There were three people inside, three men in the apartment now in custody and also people...

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: And two in the immediate vicinity, so a total of five arrests, three from inside the apartment, two from the area surrounding the apartment, and so far my count is three suspected terrorists killed, three arrested, two individuals outside that apartment complex arrested, as well.

BERMAN: And a three terrorists, importantly, killed we believe inside the apartment, including a woman, who apparently blew herself up with a suicide vest, possibly very early on in this operation, which is four plus hours old at this point.

GORANI: Exactly. And it is significant that three individuals were arrested and not killed on sight. The kind of intelligence, the kind of information that the police, that intelligent services are going to want to extract from them is going to be vital in trying to figure out what happened.

BERMAN: Especially since, again, we want to remind people we have been told by intelligence officials here in France and Belgium, that one of the targets of this raid could have been Abdelhamid Abaaoud, he is the Belgian terrorist believed to have been the mastermind behind these attacks in Paris, not to mention other attacks over the last year, up until yesterday, up until this morning, we thought he was in Syria or Iraq.

If in fact, he is in France, one of those killed or perhaps even one of those under arrest right now, that would be an extraordinary development.

GORANI: Yes. It is absolutely remarkable to see the streets of a major Paris suburb look like, essentially, a war zone. You have troops deployed, right now it appears they have is sort of scaled back that particular military operation, but SWAT team, full body armor.

[03:15:00] You have ambulances, you have fire trucks, you have police vehicles all lined up, essentially, completely cordoning off a huge area of downtown St-Denis. This is a busy street. It's a high street. It's got stores, it's got shops, it's got residential areas, seeing it like this, extremely unusual.

BERMAN: And this raid started taking place before people were awake. It was in the, you know, the pre-dawn hours, which if in the military is when often you do raids like that, because when people are asleep or just waking up.

The raid began in the pre-dawn hours but it is still on going. Now, we understand, at 9.50, local time, so people would be waking up and going to work.

But people all over the city and all over this country are waking up turning on their TV's and seeing there is a major operation directly connected to this terrorist attack on Friday.

GORANI: And you are seeing two vantage points here of more or less the same area as we continue to follow these dramatic developments from St-Denis.

St-Denis, just to give people sort of an idea, it's one of the close suburbs to Paris. I mean, essentially you can call it Paris, but it's where the Stade de France is. This is the big soccer stadium where three suicide bombers blew themselves up.

So, the physical geographic proximity of this raid to where one of the major attacks on Friday took place is only about -- I mean, it's 800 meters in metric -- in the metric system for our U.S. viewers, it's about 800 yards there. You have a bird's eye view of the area.

BERMAN: One thing to keep in mind here is think of the RMS, the arsenal used by these attackers on Friday, think then of the weapons that were recovered in the car, and think now to the fact that there has still been a shootout or some kind of altercation over the last four or five hours.

How much, how many weapons must they have had their hands on inside some of these apartments, inside some of these places where they were hold up. GORANI: Right. Well, if you consider that just about less than 48

hours ago, police conducting dozens and dozens of raids across France, actually manage to collect a rocket launcher in Lyon, this is a weapon of war, this is not a weapon used by criminal gangs in Europe, AK-47s, rocket launchers, suicide vests, you need expertise to put those vests together.

We know that syringes were found in one apartment where security forces were conducting raids. Were that used to mix the chemicals that are needed to put together, this home-made secured -- I should say, suicide belts and vests.

BERMAN: And again, one of the people dead. And just to remind people we're watching right now, there is an ongoing police operation, a raid in St-Denis, which is a neighborhood just north of Paris right here.

We understand three suspected terrorists have been killed. Three suspected terrorists have been killed, three under arrests. One of the dead terrorists, a woman who blew herself up, apparently, wearing a suicide vest.

I bring that up, Hala, because you just mentioned the syringes found in these hotel rooms that they're testing to see if, perhaps, they could be made, used in the making of explosive devices like the ones used on Friday, like the ones used just in the last few hours in this police operation.

GORANI: Just looking at the latest we are getting from the Paris Prosecutor's Office, as well as our sources speaking to CNN. Three police officers also injured, we understand, as this raid unfolded this morning starting at 4.30 in the morning.

About two hours later, there was some significant detonations. About an hour as well, we heard very heavy exchange of gunfire as well as several explosions that was, as we're reported by our Atika Shubert, as well.

It appeared as though, at that stage, perhaps, is when forces decided to storm that apartment. Unclear, though, but it would sort of match the type of operation that we've covered in the past in similar situations.

BERMAN: Right. Schools closed in St-Denis, the metro station closed in St-Denis. Up until very recently, the prosecutors and police have been -- have been telling people to stay home. They don't want people on the streets right now. And we do know that there are two people who have been arrested on the streets. There were three taken into custody inside the apartment during the raid, three individuals we do not know their identity and two taken into custody from the street.

GORANI: And European radio here is reporting that the woman suicide bomber opened fire on police at the beginning of the operation before blowing herself up. So, extremely dramatic development if this indeed is confirmed.

BERMAN: And again, intelligence officials in Belgium and France telling us that the target or eight targets of this operation could have been Abdelhamid Abaaoud. He is the man believed to be the mastermind behind the attacks on Friday, also connected to other attacks.

I want to bring in Hassan Hassan, an associate fellow of Chatham House. He joins us now from London. Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the idea that this man who could be the mastermind behind these Paris attacks, not to mention several other attacks. The idea that he could be or could have been up until a few hours ago, in an apartment in St-Denis, is extraordinary.

[03:19:59] HASSAN HASSAN, CHATHAM HOUSE ASSOCIATE FELLOW: Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's a you know, we have to understand that many of the people who joined ISIS, they're also linked to, you know, a criminal activities.

They -- they can travel with fake passports. It's now easy in Syria to actually get the Syrian passport from rebel held areas or from regime held areas by just buying a, you know, bribes. And, you know, with the -- with the massive influx of refugees into Europe, it's also easy to, you know, for them to move, for those to pay large amount of money to move around.

GORANI: Hassan, let me ask you also about the possibility that ISIS headquarters, ISIS commanding control in Syria might be directly involved in this, and how is it possible that one of the main masterminds, if it indeed is confirmed that he was present in this apartment was able to operate, apparently, it's not freely, but in a major Western country, very close to this area of an attack at the soccer stadium?

HASSAN: Well, the way ISIS works is similar to the way Al Qaeda, or it's an international network that in a local operation have -- or would have massive leeway to manage their own operations to have the recruits they want and the facilities they want, the type of people they work with, that's to minimize the, you know, government's ability to monitor them and track them or, you know, prevent such attacks.

So, ISIS, since last year, after the -- especially after the U.S.-led coalition started bombing in Iraq and Syria, they gave the green light to everyone across the world, especially in countries involved in the fight against ISIS in Syria and Iraq, to launch any sort of attack.

So, they didn't specify what attacks, they said if you can blow yourself up, that's good. If you can kill, shoot, you can behead people, everything. And they said, if you can't do any of that, you can even hit someone or spit in their face and stuff like that, so that's the kind of danger of ISIS did, this sort of low caliber activities they -- they want to launch anywhere that says ISIS is still.

And we also have to understand that ISIS international network is still developing. It's only, you know, it's barely two years old, two- year-old organization as a global organization since its, you know, especially. You know, it was only last year they announced the caliphate, so that network is only development now. So, the Paris attack are only a sign that the international network is

actually maturing is becoming more and more developed. So, there are more people able to do and carry out such attacks. So, we might see worse -- worse and more sustainable attacks in the future.

BERMAN: All right, Hassan, we're losing your connection right now. I want to thank you very much for joining us. I want to bring people to see what they're looking at on their screens right now.

An enormous amount of police activity in St-Denis, which is the neighborhood just north of Paris here. For the last four plus hours there has been a police operation or raid on an apartment building.

This is what we know at this point, three suspected terrorists dead, and as many as five people under arrests, including three people who were taken into custody from inside the apartment building.

The target of this operation, we are told by Belgian and French intelligence sources, could have been Abdelhamid Abaaoud, he is believed to be the mastermind behind the Paris attacks on Friday, and other attacks over the last year.

And as this operation started just about four or five hours ago, we are told, that a woman, one of the dead terrorist was a woman and she blew herself up wearing a suicide vest.

GORANI: And this is significant. This will be the first time a woman is believed to have been involved in a terrorist operation inside of France.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Hayat Boumeddiene, the Caulibaly, the girlfriend of Amedy Caulibaly...

GORANI: Right.

BERMAN: ... in January, was believed to have had some role...

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: Some operational there.

BERMAN: ... or at least connected and then fled to the country right now. So, there has been a female involved in France before, but this would be the at a level we have not seen here.

GORANI: Certainly. All right. John Berman and Hala, I'm here with you, we continue our breaking news coverage on the dramatic developments in St-Denis. Our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour is here with us as well covering this important story unfolding.

AMANPOUR: And there have some news, police sources telling my source that Abdelhamid Abaaoud is presumed dead.

BERMAN: Dead.

[03:24:58] AMANPOUR: That's what they presume. This is early information. This is from a source who has been incredibly reliable throughout this entire investigation and from the police. Let's wait and see.

BERMAN: All right.

AMANPOUR: But he was the target of this operation. There is no doubt. The question was, was he in the apartment, and if so, was he arrested or was he killed. They're saying that at this moment they believe he's presumed dead. We will wait to see that for sure, sure, sure.

BERMAN: A stunning development on...

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Secondly...

BERMAN: OK.

AMANPOUR: ... another operation underway right now in Bobigny, that's one of the areas which was one of the first areas under the new overnight searches that started Monday, Tuesday, and there is another operation underway there right now.

BERMAN: Bobigny was an area where Salah...

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Abdeslam.

GORANI: Abdeslam.

BERMAN: ... Abdeslam -- Salah Abdeslam had rented, we understand had rented an apartment, or had been in apartment for a week prior to this.

AMANPOUR: Right.

BERMAN: That was an apartment, an area that had been under surveillance and in a building that had been looked at. Interesting that there are raids going on in that neighborhood as we speak right now.

GORANI: And Abdel -- Abdelhamid Abaaoud. So, the question is, we know he was the target, that is absolutely for certain.

AMANPOUR: That's been for both.

GORANI: We don't know if he was there. And if he was there, we don't know if he's one of the three killed or one of the three under arrests?

AMANPOUR: Right. But latest sources are telling me that he's now presumed dead in this operation. That would be disappointing if he was actually there, because obviously he was the most wanted man in France.

BERMAN: Obviously, the preference would be to get him alive. However, the possibility of this man who planned the attacks on Friday and planned other attacks as well, could have been planning more. I think that that's an equation that they would be satisfied with at this point if in fact, he was there.

It's amazing to think that just yesterday; we all thought that he was held up in Syria or Iraq. Close to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who we believe he is the closest associate with. And now we learn that he is here in all likelihood, perhaps killed in a raid in a neighborhood just north of Paris. Perhaps he ran this entire operation from inside the city itself.

AMANPOUR: Yes. And just in plain sight. I mean, St-Denis as you know is where the Stade de France is. I mean, it's just so close to where the actual scene of the crime.

GORANI: Yes. So, just to recap though, of the six, we understand that of the three who were killed, one according to the prosecutor's office was a female suicide bomber, who, according to some reports actually started shooting at police forces before blowing herself up.

So extremely dramatic and we have to get the confirmation that Abdelhamid Abaaoud was indeed there. And that -- from that we will be able to deduce all the rest of it and once we get information on his status.

BERMAN: Christiane, did your source give any indication of how long they have had this information. How many hours more than a day or is this something that just came to them and they acted upon immediately.

AMANPOUR: Still trying to figure that out. But, obviously, they have been looking around that neighborhood for the last -- some of the information we heard today. Atika Shubert was talking to us, obviously live from the scene in St-Denis, that this operation had been planned by police.

They had gotten whatever information they needed to get way before they started in the early hours of this morning, and that's why they came in such mass with so coordinated and conducted this morning raid.

So, again, the target was Abdelhamid Abaaoud, and according to the earliest known information that was so verified to keep chasing down until authorities officially declares it. They presume that he was amongst those killed at some point. We just -- we're just waiting to see.

BERMAN: We just don't know. What we do know at this point from officials, three dead, three suspected terrorists dead was Abaaoud one of them. As many as five under arrest including three who were taken in the custody from inside that apartment, two apparently taken into custody on the streets there.

The target of the operation, this known at this point was though, Abdelhamid Abaaoud. So. GORANI: We're hearing that the operation is ongoing by the way, but that it is, then you and according to our reporters on the ground it appears as though it is winding down that some of the security forces there, and you see them there heavily armed, body armed, et cetera, are served in a more relaxed stance.

In fact, our Atika Shubert is in St-Denis, she's been following this for the last several hours. What's the latest you have for us, Atika?

SHUBERT: Well, it does seem that the operation is winding down. Police are visibly more relaxed. We've also seen a number of units leaving the area where it was happening. It was maybe a few hundred meters behind me there. The view is now blocked by these police cars.

But I still see, for example, some of the soldiers, some of the military personnel that were brought down here for security reasons as well. So, I think the operation is officially still over, but clearly winding down.

And we now know that there are six suspects inside the apartment, inside the building, three of -- three of whom are now dead, three are in custody and that one, a woman who detonated her suicide -- her explosives vest, the other two suspects killed in the gun fight.

[03:30:11] So, it really was quite an operation that lasted for some time very tense, Hala.

BERMAN: Hala and Atika, to both of you, it is very interesting that we're talking about six suspected terrorist, three dead at this point, at least three arrested from inside the apartment, maybe two suspects taken into custody from the streets. That is a lot of people who are still at large, at loose and possibly connected to these attacks on Friday.

GORANI: And if indeed it turns out they were connected, now they weren't just at large, they were 800 yards from one of the sites of the attacks on Friday night, Stade de France, so it would be absolutely remarkable. What are police saying, Atika, there about, what's happening right now?

SHUBERT: Well, what police will be looking at now is basically what's in the apartment, what kind of information, what kind of intelligence can they gather from the apartment. Remember, at the attack scenes they were able to recover a number of cell phones that may have actually helped them to track it down to the situation here in St- Denis.

What now they'll be looking at is any computers, cell phones, any information in the apartment that can piece together the network, that not only carried out the attacks here in Paris, but whether or not there were any other plots still in the works.

Remember, that Abdelhamid Abaaoud was renowned for coming up and hatching these plots, so it's quite possible that there were actually other plans that he had in motion, as well. BERMAN: Right. What we do know is that Abdelhamid Abaaoud that it was

believed that he was the target of these raids. Belgian -- Belgian intelligence and French intelligence tell us that they did think that he was there, that is why they staged this raid.

His fate, at this point, a little less certain. We do know that there are three suspected terrorist dead. Three who were taken into custody from inside the apartment. Two people taken into custody from the street. Those are the numbers, we know the identity of those people at his point we do not know.

GORANI: And, John, just to put this in perspective for our viewers. I mean, imagine living in a very busy urban area, a neighborhood with shops, with restaurants, with schools, buses, metros, and all of a sudden it turns into this, a blanket police and military operation, full body armor, SWAT teams, ambulances, fire trucks, I mean, this is absolutely -- I have in this in this neighborhood like St-Denis, it's something that these residents have never seen.

They're speaking on their phones from their home to French television.

BERMAN: Sure.

GORANI: Saying we're terrified. I just want to protect my children. I've never lived through anything like this. It feels so unusual to everybody. And the mood is so tense, only four or almost five days now after the Friday attack.

BERMAN: Yes. And there was gunfire, there were explosions there. I believe we have some sound and some images to show you of what the scene was like over the last few hours. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: There you have it. Imagine waking up to that in the middle of the night in your apartment when you think you're safe in bed.

Our next guest is Julien Theron. He's a political scientist and analyst. And he's at the University of Versailles, and he joins us. You've worked with the French ministry of foreign affairs. I mean, you know into working to this.

What's going on at the government level right now as this is unfolding? What's going as the, you know, behind closed doors and in the offices of the -- of the leadership here at the government?

JULIEN THERON, UNIVERSITY OF VERSAILLES POLITICAL SCIENTIST & ANALYST: Well, there's special meeting of the entire minister and with their presidency of course, and they should be in contact with the justice at this time. It's a pretty tense time.

And we've seen yesterday that's already yesterday at the parliament, some members of the parliament have been actually moved and some accusation of the government not to have blood in the hands from the -- some empty from Le Republica.

So, it's pretty tense situation at the political level, well -- when actually the population itself says we've received some statistics today on saying that 73 persons of the French population, plus the president. So, it's very important to say, you know, it's such intense situation.

BERMAN: I think most people right now, probably mostly is concerned about their safety.

GORANI: Right.

BERMAN: In trying to get on with their lives and as they're waking up to these images, a huge police operation in St-Denis neighborhood, north of Paris right now where we do believe that three suspected terrorists are dead, three taken into custody for the apartment. Maybe two more taken into custody from the streets.

[03:35:01] It's interesting to think that these days after, four days, five days after these attacks on Friday, there could still be this, this group of terrorists operating in plain sight.

THERON: It's actually not that new for us. Because it's actually upon exactly the same thing for Charlie Hebdo attack. We had the kind of time lapse between -- the people were completely afraid and we were wondering who were the terrorists, actually.

And at the end, we found out and the police did a great job taking them out and it's the same thing today. We knew that there was one man out and the brain of the operation as well, but we did not expect that actually there's more than two men out and the other -- another suicide bomber, this woman with a explosive belt, I mean, it's a -- it's a little bit traumatic for the French population.

GORANI: And the prosecutor is confirming that one of them dead, not killed, dead, is a female suicide bomber. But I'm struck by the fact that you're saying this isn't new for us. I mean, the fact that in France now, any one, any French citizen such as yourself can say, well, we've been through this before less than ten months ago. Is this becoming some sort of new normal in this time?

THERON: No, it's not a new normal. And I spoke with my students, for instance, yesterday, and they were afraid and a lot of questions going on about, who they are, what are they doing, how can we cope with that. So, I'm not saying that we are not into shock.

But what I'm saying is that are relaxed -- a lot of reactions about people inside the Bataclan or in this street in the bars, I was there myself, and everybody tried to keep calm to exchange information to tell the others what to do, to help the others in a very tense situation.

So, we see that, even though it's not a new normal. But Paris is going to be safe. I mean, surely it is. But people actually still have this in mind that it might happen again. And what is very important for us at this resilience and to know that there is a risk, it's a minimal risk but there's also other societies who cope with like in the Middle East. People they have to go to...

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: Where it's a daily concern.

THERON: ... work and so.

BERMAN: I do think that one of the people, one of the reasons that Parisians and people all across French republic are glued to their television sets right now is the idea that maybe there is, at least a moment of closure from the Friday attacks here.

If in fact, these three people killed were directly connected, perhaps, they have closed that circle of people involved. Although, Salah Abdeslam, one of the brothers still believed to be on the run perhaps in Belgium.

GORANI: Yes.

THERON: Or perhaps arrested, we don't know exactly yet. But, yes, we hope that the whole network has been understood and they arrested or and are killed. But we know that it might happen again. I mean, it's a -- it's a culture of death. They want to destroy us. That's what they want. So, we have to cope with that and to continue the way we live our lives and limiting the restriction on freedoms.

GORANI: But I think, many of our international viewers I've seen it on Twitter a lot are asking why France? This is the second time France was targeted in a major way in less than 10 months. What is it about France that these, specifically, ISIS wants to -- wants to target so often?

THERON: So, we have a history with a terrorist, they are claiming to be Islamists. We have that already before in 1995.

GORANI: Yes.

THERON: There was some terror attack in Paris, from a...

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: From metro in Paris?

THERON: No, they are from Africa; they are from the Islamic Armed Groups from Arc de Triomphe. So, we have a history with that. And another reason is that we are considered to be hard liners on Syria. We hit ISIS in Iraq and in Syria now, and it's not very long time that we decided to go in Syria and said that it's very self-defense.

So, we claim to be a legitimate forgetting to international law. So, there are several limits. And we are hard liners and we are saying that, no, Bashar Al-Assad it's not a solution and we have to fight ISIS as well, so we are a really on the way in the Middle East and against terrorism, also in Sahara, in Northern Africa.

So, it's not the same group, it's Al Qaeda linked. Al Qaeda and the Islamist backdrop. But remember that, in 2012, we went as a major operation to keep back -- to take back this sovereignty of money which what we have...

GORANI: Right.

THERON: different agreements.

GORANI: It's there they didn't work very well.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Europe war. Yes. It's the war against terrorism in Africa and the Middle East, but also we have Paris suburb right now, north of Paris in St-Denis, where there's a major operation going on right now.

GORANI: And we have our Frederik Pleitgen there. Frederik, you're not far from where our Atika Shubert is, we were discussing the latest with her. What are you seeing where you are right now in St-Denis?

[03:40:00] PLEITGEN: Well, Hala, one of the things that we're seeing is obviously the sieges is still ongoing, but I want to get out of your way here, so you can see down the road. Because what's going on here is that you can still see those emergency vehicles there.

There's a lot of -- aside from the police officers and the army that you see here, there's also a lot of medical vehicles here as well, and the police have actually stopped people from even going down this road, a couple of them are trying at now, presumably they're going to stop to in just a couple of minutes.

Because simply they say it's too dangerous and they want to keep this cordon up right. There's been a lot of activity actually, over the past couple of minutes here that where we've seen police vehicles drive down there.

We've seen reinforcement come in from the police. There is right now you can see another squad of police moving through there. They seem to be fairly on edge trying to get people to stay off the streets to make sure that they have this area to themselves, also, of course, for one reason, of course, is because they want to keep the safety of these people.

But on the other hand, of course, they want to have an uninhibited area for the themselves to operate and as this operation still does appears to be on going.

As far as the district here is concerned, Hala, there is very little light going on in St-Denis, as you can imagine public transport is not working, still not working. There's a few people coming through, but really very, very little activity as far as the local residents here are concerned.

And a lot of them say they are very concerned about what's going on, about the fact that there is this operation here and that possibly there were terrorists who were basically hiding in the middle of this neighborhood.

BERMAN: Well, Fred, just to bring people up to speed, Fred Pleitgen is in St-Denis, a neighborhood in the north of Paris for us right now where an operation has been ongoing for upwards of five hours right now, three suspected terrorists killed, five people now arrested, including who were taken into custody from inside these apartments.

We do know the target of this operation was Abdelhamid Abaaoud who was the Belgian-born terrorist believed to be the mastermind behind these attacks in Paris on Friday. We do not know his status, was he there, was he killed, has he been arrested, that unclear at this point.

GORANI: So many questions regarding this, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, what we know is he was the target, that is what we can say for certain.

BERMAN: Yes.

GORANI: Beyond that, we're going to have to wait for some sort of official confirmation.

Joining us now here in Paris is senior BFM journalist, Thierry Arnaud. Thierry, really dramatic moments, we were watching BFM, by the way, just a few hours ago, and they're unfolding live for all of France to watch in real-time as they were having breakfast and coffee, it was a war zone in St-Denis, north of Paris.

THIERRY ARNAUD, BFMTV JOURNALIST: Yes, it's pretty crazy. The things are going very fast. It is a good indication in the sense that investigators and the security forces seems to be -- seem to be doing a great job at, you know, getting information, using that information and acting on it.

And so, obviously, a lot of people depend on who exactly was in there, who has been arrested, what kind of information they'll be able to gather from the interrogation that had been starting now and, but it's potentially major breakthrough in the investigation.

BERMAN: You say one information they may be able to get from the interrogation. We know that five people are under arrest, including three...

ARNAUD: Right.

BERMAN: ... who was inside the apartment that was raided. Has Paris ever had high value, perhaps impact terrorists in custody before like this to question?

ARNAUD: On the domestic soil, no. And it's really everything about this, since Friday, has been unprecedented. The magnitude of the attack, the fact that suicide bombers blew themselves up for the first time.

BERMAN: Again, today, by the way.

ARNAUD: Again today.

BERMAN: We know that a woman blew herself up at the very beginning of this operation.

ARNAUD: Which was also -- so, everything about this is unprecedented.

GORANI: And the fact that they are in custody is going to be very important for investigators because they are -- will be able to extract the intelligence information and really have a lot more to go on than when all the attackers have been neutralized or killed.

BERMAN: Especially because there's a lot of stakes within the next few hours and days. Remember, when the Daesh claimed the attack, they talked about eight terrorists, and we know that figure to be not true at this point.

BERMAN: Right, seven were killed.

ARNAUD: Exactly. So, how many more are there on the loose? What do they have in mind? Or what is the -- what is the nature of the threat and the imminent danger on that? That is the first questions that the investigators are going to try and sort out.

GORANI: And ISIS spoke of eight terrorists...

ARNAUD: Yes.

GORANI: ... only seven were killed. There's another suspect on the loose not just the mastermind who -- who's status we don't know.

BERMAN: Salah Abdeslam.

GORANI: Salah Abdeslam as well. He's the brother of one of the attackers on Friday.

ARNAUD: Right. And he's very much, you know, target number one. In addition to Abaaoud, everybody thought about he was in Syria and the fact, I mean, the big surprise about this whole operation, is not only that he was the target, but it allegedly, he supposedly was near Paris.

GORANI: If he -- if he is here, if he was here and killed, explain that to me. How could this make -- because this was a guy who was very much on the radar.

[03:45:01] This was not a guy who had their eye on and stood on the cracks. I mean, this is a known terrorist believed to be an ISIS mastermind, how is it that that man could get back into this country.

ARNAUD: Well, I wish I had the answer to that, but obviously, if that is the case and if he was able to make it through the country, set up the whole operation, go on unnoticed getting into France, getting those people together, organizing and presumably, if he was here, supervising the attacks.

BERMAN: From here? GORANI: Yes.

ARNAUD: From here. And then carrying on for like two or three days. It is obviously a major security failure.

GORANI: I just want to bring our viewers up to date before we continue our discussion with Thierry here.

A major police operation that started basically in the very early morning hours, 4.30 a.m., perhaps even earlier in St-Denis, it's a northern suburb of Paris. We understand three suspected terrorists are dead. Three, under arrests from inside an apartment, and two in the immediate vicinity of this operation.

But look at the images here, Thierry. I want to get you to react to this. This is -- this is normally.

ARNAUD: Yes.

GORANI: An ordinary Paris suburb.

BERMAN: Yes, this is Paris.

GORANI: And look at it now, I mean, it is in major, major security operation.

ARNAUD: Yes, it is. It is -- it is amazing. St-Denis is north of Paris. It's very close to the soccer stadium, Stade de France.

GORANI: Yes.

ARNAUD: Where the one part of the attack was carried out on Friday night. It is a very working class, diverse, melting pot kind of suburban city, north of Paris. And it's, I mean, I've never seen anything like this in or around Paris.

BERMAN: Yes. It's also not too far from the 18th district where the abandoned car was found yesterday, correct?

ARNAUD: Yes, absolutely. I mean, the whole -- the whole center of the operation was north of Paris and the northern part of Paris.

GORANI: OK. Well, I need to ask you a political questions, our senior political correspondent, we -- there's a lot of point scoring that's going on politically very early on.

ARNAUD: Yes.

GORANI: Only just a few days after these attacks. There are important elections coming up. But are French people blaming their leadership for having missed obvious clues?

ARNAUD: Well, first of all, you're absolutely right to point that out. It's very different from what happened at the first attack in January.

GORANI: Yes.

ARNAUD: And, you know, every Tuesday and Wednesday, we have a one- hour of question time in the national assembly to the government.

GORANI: Yes.

ARNAUD: And it was very fierce yesterday. There was a lot of booing.

GORANI: Yes.

ARNAUD: A lot of heckling and it was, frankly, not very dignified. It was -- it was shocking, even to me I was used to...

GORANI: And you're a political reporter.

ARNAUD: Yes. And watching these guys go about their job. And I think they need really do need to get their act together, be a little bit more responsible, be a little more dignified under the current circumstances.

And, you know, there was a poll this morning in one of the French papers who told us that about over three out of every floor French men wants their politicians to be united.

Seventy five percent of the French population think that the president did a pretty good job so far. It doesn't mean that they like him, it doesn't mean that they are going to vote for him at the next presidential election. But I think there is a time for everything and a time for politics is not now.

GORANI: Yes. That's right. All right. Well, Thierry Arnaud, a senior political correspondent for BFMTV, our affiliate. Thanks very for joining us. We really appreciate your time and your analysis this morning.

BERMAN: Yes. You're looking at live pictures right now from St-Denis. It is a neighborhood just north of Paris here for about five hours, now, there has been a huge police operation, a raid on an apartment building there.

Three suspected terrorists killed, five people under arrest, including three people taken into custody from inside that building. The target of this raid believed to be Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the 27-year-old, mastermind, suspected mastermind of the attacks here in Paris.

Now Abaaoud is from the Molenbeek District in Brussels. He is Belgian. He is a Moroccan of descent. Authorities believed that Abaaoud joined ISIS a few years ago, he is believed to be close to the terror group leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

He is believed to have had prior contact with several of the Paris attackers. And he is believed to have been involved with or behind several plots within the last year, including, the attempted train operation that was spoiled by some American heroes.

Some American military heroes, and also an attempt to kill police in Belgium in Verviers, earlier this year. So, a man who has been on the radar for a long time.

And again, the man you're looking at right there, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the target of the operation in St-Denis this morning, this five-hour raid. We do not know if he's been apprehended. We do not know if he's been killed. We are not sure at this point if he was there. We do know he was the target of this operation.

GORANI: All right. Our senior international correspondent, Atika Shubert is live in St-Denis with the very latest on what she's hearing. Atika.

SHUBERT: That's right. It does appear again that that operation is winding down, even though, I believe it is still officially ongoing. We've seen a number of police units leave.

[03:50:03] They are still inside, you can see some of the police with riot gear and with weapons. I can also see inside as well, still some of the military, the soldiers that have been put out there for security.

So, it is still technically ongoing, although we now know a lot of it has been winding down. We now have some more details about what happened. It started at around 4.30 in the morning. Residents say they heard volleys of gunfire, what seemed like automatic gunfire. They then also heard an explosion.

There was a brief lull, and then more gunfire. So, this was quite a sustained operation that was happening so early in the morning.

When we arrived here, we saw a number of -- many units deployed here, including a SWAT team, the soldiers were out, and then we also heard a number of explosions, what sounded like controlled detonations. But we are still waiting for confirmation from police on what exactly those explosions were.

And now we know that there were six suspects in total in the apartment that they were targeting, three are now dead; one of them was a woman who killed herself by detonating a suicide vest. Two were killed in the gunfire.

Another three suspects were arrested and two other suspects in the vicinity was also arrested, including another woman. So, I'm sure we'll still keep getting these details from police as they come out.

BERMAN: And, Atika, we are learning that the man who lent this apartment, the landlord who leased this apartment to ever was inside, has also been arrested, obviously, they want to follow the money here.

We have information about this man who has believed to have been from Belgium. He hosted two people but he rented the apartment to people who were from Belgium, but he is under arrest as well.

Three suspected terrorists dead, five under arrests right now, including three taken into custody from the apartment. And we know the target of the attacks, the target of this raid, Abdelhamid Abaaoud believed to be the mastermind behind the Paris attacks on Friday. GORANI: And if he was indeed or was indeed in that apartment, it

would be remarkable, because up until just a few hours ago, we were -- we all thought, we were all being told he was still in Syria.

Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amampour joins us again with more on what we know.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, we're all now trying to pin down was he was indeed, is he, isn't he, I mean, this is the big question of the day, really, everybody got really rightly excited is the wrong word, but really waiting to see what the result would be if they did manage to get the mastermind.

Because he is the confirmation is that he was the target, did they get him, didn't they, is he alive, isn't he. Those are questions we still have to wait for. But just to put it into perspective, I mean, it is incredible, this man has been linked to so many previous attacks.

Most of them failed. I mean, we've mentioned some of them including being in contact with the person who tried to machine gun passengers in that high speed train from Brussels to France over the summer, and other things.

And you know, we've seen him over and over again in this brazen and violent way appearing on ISIS videos, recruiting, training, even as Ivan was describing to us, once, you know, dragging a body, you know, through a field. I mean, a disgusting individual. And one of the highest and most important of the Belgian Jihadist who've gone over to Syria and come back.

BERMAN: Do we know why they went from 48 hours ago, thinking he was in Syria to this morning, thinking he might be in an apartment in St- Denis. There was, yesterday, there was an interesting development when all of a sudden we went from one suspect at large, Salah Abdeslam to there was a second unnamed person connected to these attacks, who they were looking for, maybe he had been seen in one of the getaway cars, is that Abaaoud?

AMANPOUR: Well, look, you know, there are also some reports like that that we just haven't been able to nail down, and it's, you know, so fluid and there's so much information and so many sort of loose ends in this that needs to be tied up. And there was one little bit of information that did suggest that some cameras had caught him in one of the those cars.

But again, we just don't know. But obviously, something, maybe that's why the police targeted this and we were told sort of, suddenly, Atika was saying and others, that this plan -- this raid in St-Denis this morning, had obviously been planned.

They had had the information for the past previous several hours and they clearly wait till, you know, the dark hours, that it's easier, the less people around, people may not expect to be raided at night, although, you know, it seems to be...

(CROSSTALK) BERMAN: The way to do it.

AMANPOUR: Yes, the way to do it.

GORANI: French television was reporting, Christiane, that there was a law until recently, that raids could not be conducted before 6 a.m. in darkness. That law was changed and they're allowed security forces to conduct this operation in St-Denis, which I found quite interesting. It gave them perhaps more of an edge as you were mentioning they are there during the dark -- the darkness hours.

(CROSSTALK)

[03:55:01] AMANPOUR: And remember of course, all of these raids that have happened around France since Monday, have all happened in the dark hours. The hundred plus on two separate nights...

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Every night.

AMANPOUR: ... all over the country. So, yes, those happened then.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And we haven't gotten word yet this morning of how many other raids...

GORANI: Yes.

BERMAN: ... there might have been last night, perhaps dozens for all we know, although this one are the ones that are...

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Yes. And ongoing raids as well, if there are, they are presumed because it's not just this man who is being sought.

GORANI: Yes.

BERMAN: Right.

AMANPOUR: As we've constantly been saying, the others as well.

BERMAN: Let's talk for a minute, because we do know that there are several people under arrest, three people taken into custody from inside the apartment, two from the streets.

If these people now in custody, if one of them is Abaaoud, that's a huge deal. But even if there are people associated with or there are people directly connected these attacks, this would be an enormous new asset for French intelligence.

AMANPOUR: Well, it certainly would be if they are the sort of front line types...

BERMAN: Right.

AMANPOUR: ... that they're not just a, I don't know the logisticians or the guy who rented the apartment or whatever it is, certainly, if they were important members of this sale, they would be -- it would be really, really important.

Because, as you know, up until now most of the raids in the similar cases, for instance, the Charlie Hebdo last year, resulted in all the killers being killed.

BERMAN: Right.

AMANPOUR: So, you can never get any intel off them.

GORANI: And I would find it interesting if any of these suspected terrorists were caught alive, because you would expect them to want to either detonate a suicide vest or kill themselves in some other way, not to be taken alive, because that would mean that they would constitute an enormous potential intelligence and information source for investigators.

So, it would be interesting for that reason as well, because they would be an atypical development.

BERMAN: In one suspected terrorist, we are told, a woman did blow herself up wearing a suicide vest, which would be the first time a woman has done for this thing in France.

AMANPOUR: And by the way, where did this woman suddenly come from? Nowhere at all since Friday, have we heard about any woman being involved.

BERMAN: And why wouldn't she wearing a suicide vest at the time, did she know the operation was on going? Was in the midst of it that she decided to do such a thing. And is that suicide vest part of the same batch of explosives made in the attacks on Friday?

AMANPOUR: Maybe let's wait and see whether it was a vest. I mean, they say she blew herself up?

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Or it's a device. OK.

AMANPOUR: What was it?

BERMAN: It could be grenade.

AMANPOUR: Yes, what was it.

GORANI: And the other possibility is perhaps an attack was being planned, so many questions we don't have definitive answers.

BERMAN: Yes.

GORANI: The prosecutor is confirming, though, the death of this female by -- I'm not -- what did they...

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: They say kamikaze, the word they use...

AMANPOUR: We're not sure of the device.

BERMAN: Yes.

GORANI: We're not sure if it's a vest or if it's something else. Yes, indeed.

All right. Well, we're going to continue to cover this as well. We continue our rolling coverage, in fact, of this breaking news story.

Christiane, I'm not super familiar with St-Denis, but it is a diverse area, north of Paris, a neighborhood directly connected to Paris. It's not central Paris one of the 20 arrondissement, but you would call it essentially, greater Paris.

AMANPOUR: Well, so much this Stade de France is Paris.

GORANI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: So, St-Denis, Stade de France area, you know, touches the St-Denis area and it is a heavily immigrant area. There are a lot of those cities that we talked about, which is in those inner city projects where, you know, sadly too many people are sort of -- are sort of pushed into these places, many of the disenfranchised, many immigrants, many of the poor, socioeconomic level, and sort of put that kind of out of sight, out of mind.

Now, to be fair, after Charlie Hebdo and as France tries to address that sort of them and us problem, they have been opening St-Denis to more building, to attracting more middle class, to try to get more investment. They're doing more transport, public transport links up to there and all the rest of it.

However, you know, it's still an issue among certain quarters there. And this raid today, though, was right in the middle of the central old St-Denis.

GORANI: Basically the highest trade.

AMANPOUR: Yes.

GORANI: I mean, transport links, buses, metros, shops...

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Yes. Now all shut down.

GORANI: ... they're all shutdown. And basically residents in the area have been told, don't leave your house. Some of them have been speaking on the phone with French television networks, French radio, saying I just want to keep my kids safe. I don't want to go out. I've never seen anything like this looking out the window peeking out and immediately, you know, retreating back inside.

AMANPOUR: Well, they might, because the information is that one civilian was caught in the cross fire today.

GORANI: Yes.

BERMAN: Christiane, you're connected. Your sources within the French government as well. Francois Hollande we know traveling to both the United States and to meet with Vladimir Putin next week. He's taking this fight against terror outside this country as well.

This morning, do we know what he's doing. I heard he was meeting with his advisors, presumably about the security operation, this raid going on?

AMANPOUR: Well, I am sure they have emergency meetings all the time now because of this, particularly with people still at large and particularly the big fear as they have said ever since Friday they may be repeat attacks.

So, there is that fear then there is this imperative to catch these people who may threaten more French citizens.

[03:59:58] So, that is no doubt something ongoing. And, yes, we were told he may be meeting with his top, you know, prime minister, interior minister, et cetera.