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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Bomb Threats Divert Two Air France Flights; Two Dead, Seven Arrested In Overnight Terror Raids; French Government: Raids Disrupted Imminent Terror Plot; Report: Ringleader's Cousin Blew Herself Up; Suicide Vest Bombmaker Still At Large. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Sure.

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL U.S. DEPT. OF TRANSPORTATION: ... isolated and handle it.

So there are set procedures on how to deal with it, and most important for us is delve the other planes away from that plane, and get that plane down to where the -- it's decompress...

BANFIELD: Mary, you know, I don't have to tell you or our viewers. But next week is one of the busiest traveling days of the year, it's Thanksgiving. There will be millions of people flying.

What are we going to be see at the airport? And what will be going on that we don't see?

SCHIAVO: Well, you know, what I hope we see, and I'm sure people will disagree with me on this, but unbelievably heightened security, we cannot just say, "Well, you know, we screen the passengers, and it's not necessary to screen the rest of the airport workers. I'm hoping that the TSA is cracking down on that, although airlines and airports have resisted that for some time.

But what we need to see and what not just a show, this really needs to happen is a tremendous tightening of security. With the word out of Russia that the bomb was just 2.2 pounds that brought down the Metrojet, that's pretty easy to hide.

And so I think travelers should expect and should be grateful for really increased security. It's going to take a little while to get through, and I'm going to be out there flying, too. So I'm going to put a lots of patience in the carry-on.

BANFIELD: Yeah, it's a good point, be thankful for the delays, and it's a strange thing to say, but that means that, you know, the job is being done.

Mary Schiavo, thank you for that. Appreciate it.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

BANFIELD: We have more details coming in now by the minute in fact on those overnight terror raids that were carried out in France. A live update from Paris on what we have learned in just a last few minutes about who it was that was killed. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:36:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our continuing live coverage from Paris, I'm Poppy Harlow along with Ashleigh Banfield.

We still do not know whether the suspected ringleader of the terrorist attacks last Friday was killed in what was a military-style assault on two suburban apartments in the early morning hours today. But the state television in Belgium now saying just moments ago the woman who blew herself up there as the French commandos moved in was the cousin of the ringleader. Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

It was Intel suggesting that Abaaoud himself maybe in those apartments in Saint Denis, north of Paris that led two hours and hours of raids ending with seven people arrested, two suspected terrorist dead, the suicide bomber and a man taken out by a sniper.

Also, Saint Denis today, police knocked down the door of a church it is not clear why what they were after or who they were looking for or if they found anything.

Thousands of miles away, French war planes today launch newer task on ISIS command centers in Syria. The French counter act terror the Charles de Gaulle is to in the Eastern Mediterranean by the end of this week. That will put it just off the coast of Syria to intensify those attacks on Raqqah.

French police met with fierce resistance as they carried out those raids in Saint Denis, raids they continued for hours and hours, here's a look in how it all unfolded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: You can still see that one of them here still operating, they're showing their photo to, oh, and an explosion is just gone off.

This is still very much an ongoing operation that was quite a large explosion in that direction. A third explosion, fourth that was much larger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Really, we could see the bullets, the light of the laser pointing our way, really it was explosions, you could feel the buildings really shaking.

I could hear the guys upstairs running and they were screaming at each other no, no shouting this way.

HARLOW: Clearly a major operation going on. There seems to be some banging on the doors of this church. I don't know if you can hear that. You can hear them banging on the door, it's not clear who they think might be inside of that church.

CNN International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen in Saint Denis for us right now. And Fred you are standing where that all unfolded this morning. The last thing we saw take place there is those police banging, banging down that church door to get inside.

What, I mean do we have any idea what they were looking for in the church?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think inside of that church, they just wanted to see whether or not there might be still be someone of any sort of a suspicion inside that church.

It does look as though they actually found anyone in there. But I can tell you Poppy, from having been here over the past hours and hours that, you know, Francois Holland a couple of days said that he believes that France is at war in terrorism. And the things that we've seen and heard today in Saint Denis certainly looked and sounded a lot like war.

You saw some of the pictures there of the explosions that went off. And we spoke with some people who said they were absolutely terrified as all this was going on. And also the police, themselves, said that the resistance that they met when they tried to go inside that apartment where we now know that the cousin of the alleged ringleader was, the cousin of Abdelhamid Abaaoud was. The resistance was so fierce that they had to use some very heavy ordinance themselves and certainly if you look at the aftermath in what that house looks like now. The damage that it has sustain, you can see just intense how that firefight earlier today was, Poppy.

HARLOW: What is so remarkable is the fact, Fred that the authorities say they were able to get there moments, moments before an attack that they are deeming was imminent. Do we have any details on what that attack was? How large scale it was? Where it was going to take place?

[12:40:15] PLEITGEN: Well, it certainly appears as though it would have been fairly large scale, that certainly some of the information that were getting from the authorities it appears is though, they manage to get the Intel that this attack was going to take place from the intercepting phone communications, possibly also from some cell phones that were left behind after those raids that took place in Paris last Friday.

Judging from the amount of firepower that the terrorists had inside that apartment and the fierceness of the firefight it seems as though those attacks would have been quite large.

Also, if you take a look at the fact that you have two people who were killed, seven people who are arrested, that also is quite substantial cell which appears to be in fact exactly or almost exactly the same size as the amount of people who conducted those terrorists operations on Friday that of course killed so many people.

So it looks as though the French when they say that they nearly averted or that did avert what could have been horrible terror attack, looks like they certainly are correct. HARLOW: And also, we just learned in the last hour that the woman who blew herself up in that apartment was the cousin of the ringleader, Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

When you talk about a family affair, if you will, you've got this ringleader, 27-years-old, his cousin, a female wearing a suicide vest by the way, something we haven't seen in France until these attacks on Friday. And then you've got three brothers, including the man who was still on the run, Salah who is wanted, three brothers.

It's increasingly leading them to more and more family members it seems.

PLEITGEN: And more and more family members and it does look like an intricate web. And it looks like these people knew each other for a very long time. If you look at for instance the relations here, you have just pointed that the woman who blew herself up was the cousin of the alleged ringleader.

Then you have the fact that apparently the ringleader Abdelhamid Abaaoud was very good friends, and indeed spent some jail time together with the man who is currently on the run, and where there's a global arrest warrant out for him, Salah Abdeslam.

His brother, he bring up to Salah also implicated in all of this, he was one of the people who blew himself up at one of the venues as well. So certainly it seems as thought there is an intricate web here, there's a people who know each other, a very small band of people who clearly trusted one another. And went about doing all these terrible things together knowing that they would have each other's backs doing this, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yeah, and there is no question that all of the French people tonight, all of us thanking those French policemen and women for putting their lives on the line walking, running into the imminent danger today to prevent what was clearly another attack in the making.

Fred Pleitgen, live for us there in Saint Denis, thank you very much.

Coming up next ISIS called as the "Mother of Satan" the explosive of choice that they use in those suicide vests. We will look at the weapons, their tactics, and frankly, what it will take to defeat them, next.

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[12:47:39] BANFIELD: One of the terrorist suspects killed in this morning's raid in Saint-Denis was a woman who blew herself up with a suicide vest. She was reportedly the cousin of the suspected ringleader of Friday's attacks. And then of course the seven suicide bombers in those attacks.

French investigators managed to recover one of their vests intact, and they are examining its makeup. Then in meantime, the senior Belgian official says the bombmaker who made those vests is still at large. These vest are so lethal there is a sinister nickname for them "Mother of Satan." they contained home made explosives, the ingredient surprisingly easy to buy.

And for on that we turn to our Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The sound of the first explosion echoed throughout France's soccer stadium. Across Paris other attackers detonate their suicide vests after killing scores at this concert hall. And at this cafe where Ibrahim Abdeslam detonates his suicide vest, his younger brother Salah still at large. Family is saying it was unaware what the brothers were planning.

MOHAMED ABDESLAM: My brother who participated in the terrorist act must have been probably psychologically ready to commit such an act.

CARROLL: More questions about the suspects and the types of explosives used in their vests.

WILLIAM BRATTON, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: We want to understand about those vests, because as our officers rush in to active shooter scenarios, to the best of our ability we want to be able to give them intelligence about what they might be up against.

CARROLL: The suicide vest were loaded with triacetone triperoxide or TATP, it's a home made explosive with a sinister nickname "Mother of Satan." A name coined by terrorist because it sensitive to heat and volatile and can potentially cause extensive damage, expert say it's also cheap with ingredients that are easy to come by.

PETER JONES, COO, TRIPWIRE OPERATIONS GROUP: Ninety percent of this stuff we have here, you don't need a license to buy, I can go in a trunk right now in about half an hour away and come home with probably (ph) 90 percent of this.

CARROLL: Paris is not the first time TATP has been trace to terrorist attacks. December 2001 at Richard Reid is arrested after he tries to blow up a plane with an explosive device hidden in his shoe. One component TATP.

[12:50:01] July 2005 bomb explode throughout London 52 dead, more 700 injured. Investigators discovered the home made bombs contained TATP.

September 2009 Najibullah Zazi is arrested for plotting to bomb a New York City subway. Zazi get the ingredients he need for TATP at Colorado beauty-supply store, a Lowe and a Walmart

SETH JONES, RAND CORPORATION: You're not going to generally get this people by trying to monitor they've purchase.

CARROLL: Seth Jones specializes in counterterrorism at the RAND Corporation. Jones says, since TATP ingredients are so readily available, buying the items may not raise suspicions, and that is why intel he says is key.

JONES: Najibullah Zazi who was identified in 2009 was involve in boiling TATP in hotel room in Aurora was not identified for the ingredients he was purchasing, he was identified because of good intelligence monitoring e-mail accounts where he came up.

CARROLL: Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente and CNN military analyst General Mark Hertling.

Tim, I can begin with you TATP seems to be repeated over and over as one of the choice weapons now for these vests. But how detectable is say at an airport or by bomb sniffing dogs?

TIM CLEMETE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Ashleigh, it's actually very difficult to detect. The aroma of TATP is not something that easily detected by electronics or by dogs, and some of the things that they try and do to make it a little more stable the bombers will put it in a liquid to stabilize it, and that liquid is what some detection devices are capable of finding.

The problem is that since their household chemicals, acetone and peroxide, two of the major ones that are use in TATP. They're very easy to get, there aren't tag-ins or things that are put in to the chemicals to make them easier to visually see or physically smell.

So, it's a tough situation, there's a lot of companies that are trying to work on devices and different technology to try to detect these things in the final form, the final crystalline form that TATP takes when it used as explosive, but as right now, its very, very difficult to detect.

BANFIELD: Now General Hertling, when you hear that it just sort of takes the wind out of you, but at the same time there is that notion Jason Carroll just reported that TATP is very sensitive to heat, which makes me wonder maybe we need to redesign security, maybe baggage needs to go through high intensity heat zones to make sure that may be it can be damaged just set off before it ends up on a plane?

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING, MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, some of that actually occurs Ashleigh. And what I suggest is as soon as the enemy adapts in one way and there are many ways to make bombs, you know, TATP is one way I had saw some of that in Iraq, and just to add to the conversation, it has unbelievable strong bleach-like smell to it. If you don't use TATP, you use fertilizer that's why when go through the airport sometimes people is the TSA guard will swipe your hands to detect any kind of fertilizer, and farmers get be picked up quite a bit when they're going to airports.

If you don't have that, you go right become to TNT. So every time you think you have the problem solved, there was just be an adaptation to another technique. But this one is specially though. The blast isn't as strong as some of the other devices, but because of the lack of ability to detect TATP, its becoming the weapon of choice in many of the suicide vests.

BANFIELD: So Tim, help me to understand why sometimes we get these reports that a suicide bomber blow him or herself up, and there are mass casualties, and other times it's just the bomber. Is that ill skilled nervous bomber who mess up or are sometimes those vests or the materials they get not effective?

CLEMETE: Well, ashleigh, I think it's a combination of the two. If an individual gets a little too nervous and they blow themselves up preemptively before their close enough to enough of a target to kill many people, that's on them.

But it's also the design of the device because in a situation whether using TATP, the explosive does not produce a great deal of heat, and the person (ph) the shattering capability of the explosive is not tremendous. TATP literally expands from a solid to a gas, but it does not create a lot heat. So it's the propulsion of the shrapnel that will do the most damage. So unless the individual has enough shrapnel in the vest they are with wearing, they literally going to blow themselves a part and push people away and cause some vitally damage in the immediate proximity of the device. But it's that shrapnel that propels outward. In the case of the Boston bombers, they used the pots, the pressure cookers to do that to be the shrapnel.

BANFIELD: Tim Clemente, I appreciate the insight. General Hertling as always thank you for your insight as well.

I just want to let you all know that we've received a statement from the band called the Eagles of Death Metal, a California group of musicians that were performing at the Bataclan concert hall in Paris when those horrible attacks occurred.

[12:55:05] Let me read for you what they said "While the band is now home safe, we are horrified and still trying to come to terms with what happened in France." They go on the say that "Although bonded in grief with the victims, the fans, the families, the citizens of Paris, and all of those affected by terrorism, we are proud to stand together with our new family, now united by a common goal of love and compassion."

"We would like to thank the French police, the FBI, the U.S. and French State Departments, and especially all of those at ground zero with us who helped each other as best they could during this unimaginable ordeal, proving once again that love overshadows evil."

And the band ended their statement with these French words "Vive la musique, vive la liberte, vive la France, and vive EODM," which is the initial of name of the band.

Thanks for watching everyone. We're expecting that the French prosecutor at any moment just take to mic and speech live and give new details on those raids from this morning. My colleague Wolf Blitzer will man the helm after this quick break.

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