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Mali Gunmen; Muslim Fear; U.N. Official: At Least 3 Dead at Mali Hotel; Paris Terror Attacks: Ringleader's Dad Says He was A Psychopath, Devil. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 20, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Lost our connection with Katerina (ph). We'll try to reestablish that and bring her back as soon as we can.

Right now a U.N. spokesman tells CNN that the gunman arrived at the hotel in Mali in a vehicle or multiple vehicles with diplomatic plates armed with AK-47s. Now this attack comes just one day after French President Francois Hollande praise his nations troops for fighting Islamists in Mali, which is a former French colony. They have been able to drive those Islamists through - away from much of the country and further up north, which is where French forces still are.

Julian Theron, political scientists and analyst at the University of Versailles and University of Paris joins me now.

In terms of who these people are, and we don't know firmly exactly who they are. There are a number of bad actors they might be.

JULIAN THERON, POLITICAL SCIENTIST & ANALYST, THE UNIVERSITY OF VERSAILLES: There's four possibilities and perhaps others because there's a lot of different cells acting in the region. it might be two groups from al Qaeda, one in Islamic Maghreb, Akmi (ph), or one in western Africa, which is pretty new, actually, from the charismatic Mokhtar Belmokhtar.

COOPER: He's the guy who had taken an oil field - taken over an oil field and there was a big battle again with Algerian forces.

THERON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

The second group, it comes from the summer (ph). It's a reunion of different groups active since 2012 in norther Mali. So it's new and you know that they like to make it enough (ph) advertising when they prepare.

And Islab (ph) al Qaeda as well. It's a new al Qaeda. And two other groups, it might be Ansardin (ph). The head is a (INAUDIBLE) leader and they are against France. And they had a threat several weeks ago and they said that they want to get rid of the crusaders, firstly France. And the last one is a new one. It's Masna Liberation Front (ph) and it is absolutely the kind of group that tries to bring the fight from norther Mali to the southern part of Mali. So that might be a possibility too.

COOPER: Julian, stay with us.

I just want to go back to Katerina and we'll continue our conversation.

Katerina, I'm sorry we got - we got cut off. You - tell us what you were seeing. You said you've seen some international forces and it seems like they're moving into the hotel?

KATARINA HOIJE, JOURNALIST, BAMAKO, MALI (via telephone): I mean the Mali (INAUDIBLE) have been at the hotel for quite some time and helping hostages out. What we are seeing now is also heavily armed French forces among them moving into the hotel and, as far as I understand, conducting operations inside the hotel. There's been gunfire coming from the hotel after (ph) a couple of explosions. But since about 10, 15 minutes ago, that has calmed down.

I have been hearing that the operations are over and that all the hostages are free, but I haven't still been able to get that information confirmed.

COOPER: OK, that would, obviously, be very good news. If you hear any more, obviously let us know.

And do you have a sense of how many forces you have been seeing, both Malian forces and also international forces. How big a troop presence is there?

HOIJE: It has been quite difficult to - to appreciate because they've been coming from two directions and the directions I think (INAUDIBLE) been at least 15, 20 cars and then there's also been cars coming, dumping off soldiers and moving back. Unfortunately I - I wouldn't be able to give an estimate of the - the total numbers.

COOPER: Sure.

Is there - you said you've been seeing hostages released. We understand that earlier when - when the terrorists went in, they actually let some people go. There was an earlier report that they were letting people go if they could recite a passage - a profession of faith, a passage from the Koran or a profession of Islamic faith. Have you been able to confirm that? Is that true?

HOIJE: This is, obviously, what we've been hearing from other similar attacks where terrorists (INAUDIBLE) have been involved. I've not been able to confirm it in this case.

COOPER: Is there anything more that we should know about what's going on right now?

HOIJE: Well for the moment it has calmed (ph) down (ph). We're still hearing sporadic gunfire. I'm actually facing the entrance now. The road is clear. There's an ambulance and a couple of Mali police cars.

COOPER: Has there been any claim of responsibility, Katarina, at this point? HOIJE: As far as I'm aware, we have not had any - any groups operating in northern Mali claiming the attacks. But since (INAUDIBLE) groups terrorist efforts operating in the north of the country have been launching more operations into the center and (INAUDIBLE), I guess this is the - where people would be looking first.

COOPER: Can you tell us what - I assume you've been to this hotel in past - in the past. Can you tell us what sort of layers of security, if any, they have had?

[09:34:58] HOIJE: Well, there are - the parking lot and entrance to the - to the hotel does have guards. What I've heard this morning was that these attackers arrived in a - in a diplomatic car or a car looking very official, which enabled them to enter the hotel. Security is obviously not very high or as high as it should be considering this is one of the most expensive and poshest hotel in (INAUDIBLE) and it does have a lot of western guests among them, people working for embassies and the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Mali.

COOPER: Katarina Hoije, we'll continue to check in with you throughout this hostage standoff. We'll get back to you shortly.

I just want to finish with Julian Theron.

You talked about the number of groups who might be involved. Obviously France has played a critical role in Mali and that would be a prime target for any of these groups.

THERON: Yes, we intervene to restore the sovereignty of Mali when it was split in two with the Islamist groups, which took the north of the country. So now we're split from (INAUDIBLE) to (INAUDIBLE), which is a collective regional answer to the terrorists threats. And so we work with five countries in the region to secure the country. But we still have supporters over there.

COOPER: Julian Theron, I appreciate you - you being with us. Thank you very much.

THERON: Thank you.

COOPER: As we continue to monitor this situation.

We also now are getting some more information just in. Another person has died following Friday's terror attacks here in Paris. The death toll now at 130. As you know, a number of people are still in the hospital with wounds they received and one of them has died. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:03] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. ISIS is winning the war on fear at the moment. Here in the United States, there is talk of registering all Muslims and shutting down mosques. Also on Capitol Hill, House Republicans stood firm in the face of a veto threat from President Obama and with the help of 47 Democrats passed a bill that could limit the number of Syrian and Iraqi refugees allowed to enter the United States. The final vote tally, 289-137, ensuring a veto-proof majority.

But it's the heated rhetoric that's upsetting many American Muslims. Ben Carson comparing some of the Syrian refugees fleeing ISIS to rabid dogs and Donald Trump, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Muslims here in this country?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There should be a lot of systems beyond database. I mean we should have a lot of systems. And today you can do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) something your White House would (INAUDIBLE)?

TRUMP: Oh, would certainly implement that. Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specifically, how do you actually get them registered into a database?

TRUMP: It would be just good management. What you have to do is good management procedures. And we can do that. That's nice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you - do you go to mosques and sign these people up into the system or -

TRUMP: Different places. You sign them up at different - but it's all about management.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Just to be clear, it's not just Republicans. The mayor of Roanoke, Virginia, a Democrat, brought up Japanese internment camps during World War II to justify keeping Syrian refugees out of Virginia.

Joining me now to talk about this, Anushay Hossain, a journalist and editor in chief of Anushayspoint.com, and Dean Obeidallah, a contributor to "The Daily Beast" and political commentator.

Welcome to both of you.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Thanks.

COSTELLO: OK, so if Mr. Trump's idea flies, Dean -

OBEIDALLAH: Yes.

COSTELLO: That might mean you would have to register even though you were born in New Jersey. Your thoughts?

OBEIDALLAH: I'm just going to be going with my Italian half from now on, Carol. I'm half Italian, half Palestinian. I'm Italian. Most Middle Easterners are no - we're now Latino, we're Dominican or Puerto Rican. This was the most alarming words, seriously, that I've ever heard from

a politician at his stature about Muslims before. The idea of closing down mosques or somehow depriving us of our liberties is something I've seen white supremacists online say, I've seen anti-Muslim bigots say. But when a person like Donald Trump says it, we should all pause because he's already said despicable things about Latinos. Now he's turned to Muslims. He will demonize minorities in his quest for power. It alarming. It should be a wake-up call for all Americans of good conscience that Donald trump is worrisome. Very, very worrisome.

COSTELLO: Anushay, you're a naturalized U.S. citizen. Your thoughts?

ANUSHAY HOSSAIN, JOURNALIST: I completely agree with Dean. I think Trump is - I mean I don't know whether to be depressed or incredibly angry and I'm somewhere - or scared. You know, I'm so terrified about the backlash. But what Trump is doing is - his rhetoric is so dangerous. I mean there's - there could be no bigger boon to ISIS than having everybody - the collective punishment of the world's 1.7 billion Muslims. I mean that's - that would be a boon for ISIS. So I think that Trump, you know, he wants to build a wall to keep the Latinos out, he want to register all the Muslims. You know, invoking these tactics from Nazi Arab Germany and World War II and the Japanese, I mean this is incredibly dangerous.

COSTELLO: A Bloomberg poll showed 76 percent of Democrats and 61 percent of Republicans agree with the statement, Islam is an inherently peaceful religion but there are some who twist its teachings to justify violence. Would you agree with that, Dean?

OBEIDALLAH: I wish those numbers were higher. I mean Islam is a faith like Christianity to is. There are parts of the scripture, if you want to live them out, it could be scary. It's defined by the Muslims. I think the big thing for us, and our Muslim communities making the case to our fellow Americans that the number one victim of ISIS are Muslims. They slaughter Muslims on a daily basis over there. It's not Islam versus the west like ISIS wants or certain Republican politicians say in this country. It's all of us versus ISIS. We must be unified against them. The idea that splitting us by our faith is wrong. It's exactly what ISIS wants. So I want those numbers to go up, but I think, part of it, the burden's on us as well, getting out there, getting in the media, making the case for what our faith is really about. And that's the challenge.

[09:45:11] COSTELLO: So, Anushay, I've heard this from both of you, this is what ISIS wants. What do you mean by that?

HOSSAIN: Well, it just gives them such a large pool, such a larger pool to recruit from. Think about it. There's a big difference, and this is a much larger conversation, between the Muslims in Europe and the Muslims in America. There's a 40 percent unemployment rate amongst Muslims in Europe. It's very easy for ISIS to recruit and if we -- If it becomes a situation, if the lines are drawn in the sand that it's between the Muslims up against them, it really should be all of us. Just like Dean actually said in a recent article that he wrote. All of us against ISIS. Not West against ISIS. I mean, no one is paying a greater price for terrorism than Muslims.

We face the greatest backlash. We have to pay all the racial ramifications. I don't think anybody hates ISIS more than Muslims do. We have people walking on foot across countries escaping and fleeing exactly the kind of violence that we saw in Paris. How can we shut our doors to the very people who have lost the most because of this kind terrorism and ISIS?

COSTELLO: Well, most Americans say maybe it is a good idea though, Dean, to pause in allowing Syrian refugees to come into this country, just to make sure we have our t's crossed and our i's dotted.

OBEIDALLAH: I understand that concern. I mean, I certainly have a concern, I'm an American. If someone from ISIS came in, they would kill me probably more than anyone else because somehow I'm an apostate to them.

You know, if you look at the facts, and I hope calmness prevails, it takes refugees 18 to 24 months to process five different government agencies, that then we've had almost 2,000 Syrian refugees here since 2012. Zero cases of any kind of ties to terrorism. You know, in times a question of maybe one more layer of security for people. But let's not trample the values this nation's about, the principles that's on the Statue of Liberty, the idea of, you know, helping people in need who are yearning to be free. Let's not lose this in this country now over fear.

COSTELLO: Dean Obeidallah and that Anushay Hossain, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, condemning the Paris ringleader as a psychopath and devil. Not surprising until you consider the source of such venom: his own father.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:45] COOPER: Welcome back. We're continuing to follow breaking news both here in Paris and also in Mali. Right now the frightening situation unfolding in the African country of Mali in the capital of Bamako. U.S. special operations forces now assisting with the rescue mission, exactly in what capacity we're not quite sure at this moment, after gunmen stormed with AK-47s, stormed a Radisson Hotel in the capital city.

We're looking at new video of hostages who are being evacuated from the hotel. The situation, we're told, still unfolding minute by minute. State TV reporting that dozens of hostages have been freed. We've also learned at least three people are dead, including a French citizen. Now earlier today, a U.N. spokesman talked to CNN, described how the gunman entered the hotel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLIVER SALGADO, SPOKESMAN, U.N. STABILIZATION MISSION IN MALI (voice- over): Currently (ph) the people entered the compound at the hotel with (INAUDIBLE) with diplomatic plates. What I can tell you is that people entering with AK-47 in the hotel. I'm not sure they are here to negotiate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Security forces now launching a counterassault operation. We'll stay on top of all of this, bring you more details as they come in. As we said, it's a very fluid situation.

Meanwhile, the father of the man who orchestrated the Paris terror attacks is said to be feeling relief over news that his son died during that police raid in suburban Paris. That is according to the attorney representing the ringleader's father.

Here's part of her interview with CNN's Erin Burnett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHALIE GALLANT, ATTORNEY FOR ABDELHAMID ABAAOUD'S FATHER: Yes, he was relieved because he knew already in the last month that his son was linked to all the terrorism acts which happened in Europe. He was afraid to learn that his son, Abdelhamid, had maybe again committed something horrible.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: It's been reported that Abaaoud was very involved with his parent's business in Brussels, in Mozambique. He was presiding over board meetings in 2013. When did his father learn or think, notice for the first time, that his son was becoming radicalized?

GALLANT: It was during 2013. His son was beginning to make a lot of critics [SIC] concerning the way the father was educating the small kids because he was educating them, you know, like European. And Abdelhamid was totally upset because of that.

BURNETT: Abdelhamid Abaaoud has said some horrible things, Nathalie, of course. One of the things he said, I quote him from a video he put out, "It gives me pleasure from time to time to see blood of the disbelievers run." He put out another video, you see him in this video dragging a pile of bodies behind a truck in Syria. What did his father say to you when he saw this video, when he heard these horrible things?

[09:54:59] GALLANT: He said exactly that this was the behavior of a psychopath. For him, it was the proof that his son became a devil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That attorney also represents the brother of Salah Abdeslam, the eighth terror suspect who is still on the run. She says Mohamed Abdeslam wants his brother to surrender as soon as possible. "If Salah is still alive," she quotes him as saying, "I want to tell him that Abaaoud is dead. He doesn't need to be afraid of him now. He must go to Belgian authorities because it's the only way to avoid being shot down by police."

We have more coverage from Paris after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. We're learning that some hostages have been rescued after armed terrorists stormed a Radisson in Africa in Mali. Another act of terror just one week after the attacks in Paris.