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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Ringleader Abaaoud Killed in Saint-Denis Raid; AFP: 170 Hostages Taken at Bamako. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired November 20, 2015 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:11] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome everybody to the viewers in the United States, around the world as well. We continue our special coverage in Paris. I'm Hala Gorani.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman. Today, we are standing on the Champs Elysee.

Our special CNN coverage of the Paris attacks continues right now.

In the last hour, we have new details about the whereabouts of the presumed ringleader, the planner, or perhaps the architect of the attacks here in Paris.

GORANI: All right. It is really stunning, according to the source close to the investigation. Abdelhamid Abaaoud was seen, we understand on CCTV footage, surveillance footage, as the Bataclan scene was under way.

BERMAN: He was four kilometers away, at a subway station, in the neighborhood of Montreuil. It is stunning as you said that he could have been there as these attacks were going on.

We had described to us. We have not seen it ourselves, but operating somehow in a subway station. This as an international manhunt is under way for additional suspects involved including Salah Abdeslam, a man believed to have been a part of those attacks as they happen.

GORANI: All right. New information as well regarding the woman who blew herself up during that operation. According to sources who have been speaking to CNN. She has been identified at Hasna Aitboulahcen. You can hear police confront her just before she detonated her bomb. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM TF1)

POLICE: Where is your boyfriend?

WOMAN: He is not my boyfriend.

(GUNSHOTS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Officials tell us that police have taken the woman's mother and brother in for questioning. That is standard operating procedure here in France, the families of suspects often gets taken for questioning.

GORANI: So, of course, authorities are going to want to speak to them. It doesn't mean they are under arrest or charged with anything. But police here have extended and enhanced authority to question people under a state of emergency that this country is now under.

Fred Pleitgen, who's been following this investigation, joins us now live with more.

Tell us about the CCTV footage. What do we know about where Abdelhamid Abaaoud was when these attacks were taking place last Friday?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is interesting, Hala. This is footage which was taken from a subway station from a metro station that's actually right near Montreuil, which is, of course, where the Seat Leon, the black Seat Leon was found. That, of course, is one of the vehicles that was used in some of the shootings.

And if you recall, what we heard from the authorities was that in that black Seat Leon, CCTV footage showed that there were several people in the car as it made its get away. And I was there in the place where it was found in Montreuil, and the authorities found it there, they broke into the car, they found three AK-47s. But otherwise, the car was abandoned.

The question back then already was, was this car -- was the person who was driving the car one of the attackers or did somebody else who was driving the car? And whether or not how many people were in the car?

Now, we're hearing right close to where that car was dumped is where Abaaoud was apparently seen at the Metro Station. Obviously, trying to make his way apparently to Saint-Denis where he was later apprehended. So, they're slowly starting to piece together of where he was at what time.

And it appears as though that CCTV footage comes, was taken at a time while the siege at the Bataclan was still going on. So, he was apparently involved in some of these shooting incidents, that happened at some of the other cafes, but this happen while the siege at the Bataclan was still going on -- Hala.

BERMAN: All right. Frederik Pleitgen for us here in Paris -- thanks so much, Fred.

As that's going on here in Paris, the investigation continuing also in Belgium. A series of raids there believed to be connected to the Paris attacks and several locations targeting people believed to be associates or associated with the attackers here. I understand at least nine people taken into custody there.

GORANI: All right. And, of course, as we try to continue to piece together what happened, this network that perhaps in Paris, Belgian authorities have arrested these nine individuals, and authorities say that the raids are tied to Bilal Hafdi, one of the suicide bombers who died last Friday.

Ivan Watson has been following the Belgian angle for us and he joins us now live from Brussels.

Tell us more about these raids and these arrests.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, they were carried out on Thursday across Brussels. Bilal Hafdi is -- before he blew himself up in the deadly Paris attacks last week, he was wanted here in Belgium.

[04:05:02] He was a resident of Brussels who was believed to have gone to Syria to join the ranks of ISIS. And there was an international arrest warrant out for him since early 2015. The Belgium authorities did not know that he had gotten back into Europe until he blew up his suicide belt on the night of last Friday. And it is because of that kind of security trying to share more information, trying to strengthen border controls at the European Union's external borders.

That is part of why there's an extraordinary session under way of interior ministers and justice ministers from all across the European Union, right now here in Brussels, to try to discuss ways to prevent future attacks like this.

So, they are talking about strengthening the external borders of Europe. They're trying to talk about better information sharing and trying to push through an initiative that they call passenger name record. Basically to try to get -- checking of wanted people at train stations and airports so guys like Bilal Hafdi cannot slip through the dragnet. So, the guys like Abdelhamid Abaaoud was killed in the Saint-Denis raid who was believed to be the organizer of the Paris attacks, so they can't get away living underground for perhaps, weeks, months, at a time, which is one of the fears the Belgian investigators say there are a number of people wanted in the Paris attacks suspects that simply slipped through the dragnet -- John and Hala.

BERMAN: Ivan, to give you a sense of the scope of the investigation right now, CNN has been told there are reports that it is now spread to the Netherlands as well. Salah Abdeslam, you know, could have gone through Belgium and moved on there. So, the search very much widening, Ivan.

WATSON: That's right. It is important to remind viewers that there is still a key suspect missing -- Salah Abdeslam, born here in Brussels, who is believed to have been one of the key suspects in the Paris attacks. He's at large. Authorities say he is dangerous.

He was last seen driving from Paris towards Belgium and then disappeared. But the car he was traveling in was found here in Brussels. So, nobody knows where he is. Netherlands, of course, is a neighbor to Belgium. So, it would make sense that perhaps he could try to make his way there.

There were arrests, detentions made earlier this week across the border in Germany. They proved not to be terribly fruitful. And this does gets back to one of the issues of militants, extremists can exploit. The fact that you don't check passports when you cross borders between European Union countries like Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands.

And that is one of the reasons once somebody gets into the European Union, from say, Turkey, after coming across from Syria, they can move around freely. That is a challenge that governments are trying to deal with now -- how do they secure societies here, while also allowing passport free travel to continue across internal borders -- John and Hala.

BERMAN: All right. Ivan Watson for us in Belgium, where these raids and investigations continue -- thanks, Ivan.

GORANI: All right. Let's bring in our guest, Julien Theron is an expert on terrorism and is a professor at the University of Versailles. Melissa Bell is the foreign affairs editor at France 24 Television.

Thanks for being with us.

We're getting reports now, Julien, let's start with you, that there is a shooting in Bamako in Mali, at a hotel there. It appears -- I mean, it wouldn't be -- it wouldn't be a stretch to assume there is some sort of link there?

JULIEN THERON, POLITICAL SCIENTIST, UNIV. OF VERSAILLES & UNIV. OF PARIS: No, but a French fight on the ISIS in Iraq and Syria, but you know we intervene in northern Mali, in this so-called Azawad province, which has been in complete turmoil and at the end, taken by Islamist groups, but linked more to al Qaeda. So, it's not to ISIS. But you see, France is on the branch.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: If you want to make a statement, France has a military presence, it would be in Mali. It could be at the hotel near a hotel in the capital Bamako right now, it's something we are watching very, very closely. And clearly, it has to be a concern that there could be other attacks. Not just here, but elsewhere.

MELISSA BELL, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EDITOR, FRANCE24: This is something we have seen over the course of the last few weeks. If you look just over the course of the last few weeks, a number of targets. And, of course, as Julien said, in Mali, so far, there was, in fact, last year, on well known parts of Bamako where there a lot of (INAUDIBLE) foreigners and so on.

So, it's not the first time (INAUDIBLE), but it does tend to be groups linked to al Qaeda that the French have been fighting there since early 2013. But what we have seen going back to the Islamic state group is the increasing strategy of striking outside of the territory it controls. Over the course of the last month, you had Ankara spectacularly, you had Beirut, you had the Russian plane over Egypt, you've now had Paris.

[04:10:08] And what many experts looking at it on the ground saying even though the group comes under pressure on the territory that it controls, it seeks to strike targets that are outside. Of course, no confirmation that Bamako, this is a all link. And as we have been saying, it does tend to be groups more closely linked to al Qaeda that have operated in the northern part of the country and French have been fighting for a while.

GORANI: Let's talk about this apparent shifting strategy of ISIS striking outside of the territory it controls. How long can it sustain? This is an unbelievably rapid pace. I mean, from one day to the next, we have the Russian jetliner. You had the Beirut bombings. Now, you have the Paris attacks.

Were they underestimated, their ability to strike so hard outside of their territory?

THERON: The difference with al Qaeda and ISIS is this is based on territory. This is not al Qaeda. What we might see is with the international coalition, then the Russians and sometimes the Iranians as well fighting from the air against ISIS. ISIS might actually add up to the same strategy that al Qaeda does, meaning that if they at the end lose that territory, they might actually grow outside, clandestine -- in clandestinely.

And it's the same in Mali. What is interesting to see is that there is a war between ISIS and al Qaeda and there's some discussions inside al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb in southern (NAUDIBLE) to know who will win this internal fight in the jihadi galaxy. So, that's a part of what we see now in Mali.

BERMAN: I want to ask you about a piece of information we are getting in Paris this morning. The idea that the security footage from inside a subway station at the time roughly these attacks were going on. Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a man we have been calling the ringleader, the planner, the architect. It does raise a lot of questions about what his role might have been at the time.

BELL: Until Wednesday morning and confirmation, the speculation has been that he was in Syria, masterminding the operation from there. The fact he was in France raised concerns. But he wasn't merely sort of operational presence acting from elsewhere. He was on the streets of Paris. He was on the tube.

This is a man who is a subject not only if an international arrest warrant, but a European arrest warrant, functioning, going about his business, even as those attacks sort of an hour -- the footage is about an hour after the attacks began and there he is on the tube. So, he was physically coordinating these attacks on the ground. Given the extent of the search for him seems absolutely extraordinary.

GORANI: I've got to as you, does this -- does this change the way we should be describing this man? The fact he was at the metro station. Did he buy a metro ticket and just go through this supposed mastermind of the worst terrorist attack on French soil?

BERMAN: Awfully exposed, awfully exposed.

GORANI: It sounds -- all of it just sounds a little bit strange. What do you make of that particular piece of operation?

THERON: Well, first, when we say mastermind, we have to understand that they are men like others. We have to keep calm in front of this situation. And then there are men in contact with a terrorist group. Meaning that this whole thing can be planned way longer than before. French, yes, maybe, the terror attacks are the results of the French foreign policy and the action in Sahil (ph), and Middle East as well.

But we have been under attack from terrorist groups, jihadi groups, since a long time now. Remember, in 1995, it was already the case. Now it's also the case. We have seen threats before the intervention in Iraq and very technical terror attacks were planned in Syria. You see, that is the brain of the operation, this is coordinator of the operation. But he is not the only man connected.

GORANI: Perhaps not this great mastermind.

(CROSSTALK)

BELL: You're right. This is the big problem facing European now. He is a Belgian citizen. Although he was a subject of these arrest warrants, of course, technically, he could come and go at will.

And, of course, this is a question for the interior ministers who are going to be meeting in Brussels to address this issue. And Schengen space is 26 countries in which there are no borders, are now going to be looking again at how they control the borders. Europeans are now going to find themselves having a far greater number of checks inside and outside of that space.

BERMAN: Melissa and Julien, thank you so much.

We have breaking news we want to get to right now. Again, an ongoing attack in Mali, the African nation inside the capital. Again, it's an ongoing situation.

Let's bring in David McKenzie monitoring for us.

David, what do you know?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, what we know is the latest information is coming from the U.S. embassy and others. The U.S. embassy warning American citizens to stay indoors, to monitor local media because in Mali, in Bamako, the capital there, at the Radisson Hotel, a popular hotel for foreign businesses, diplomats and tourists into Mali, is experiencing, quote, "active shooter operation."

[04:15:15] I can go to the latest reporting from the Agence France Press, AFP. They are saying, according to the AFP, there have been 140 guests and 30 employees are locked in to quote that report in an ongoing hostage situation. So, certainly, it appears that it is a very serious situation and going on in Mali right now in Bamako at the Radisson Hotel.

These reports started surfacing just a few -- less than an hour ago in fact. Certainly we are also getting from the president in Mali. Let me give you the update as they come in. The presidency in Mali, the officer of the president, saying foreign forces and Malian forces are involved on the ground. And that our men did in fact enter the hotel. They created a perimeter around the hotel and there is a hostage situation -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Just remind us, David, again, the French role in Mali. We do not know, there's no reason to expect at this point that they were absolutely connected, what is happening in Mali and what just happened in Paris. However, the French is playing, and the French military is playing a major role in that country.

MCKENZIE: Well, certainly since January of 2012, when the Touareg insurgency broke out in the northern part of Mali and joined with elements of al Qaeda in Maghreb and other Islamic fundamentalists armed groups in northern Mali, that created a situation that tore the country in two effectively. International community, especially the French military and French government responded very robustly, particularly the French colony. The French military was very heavily involved in operations that took on directly those Touareg elements and Islamic fundamentalists.

There has been a spate in recent years, as you well know, of attacks in that region from al Qaeda affiliate in that region. At this stage, we don't know if it is connected. But this is clearly an attack unfolding right now with hostages on a hotel which is well known within Bamako, which is a favorite hub (ph) of businesses, foreign and diplomatics as well. As I said, the U.S. embassy are watching this broadcast, they must monitor local media as well. They must stay indoors and confirming, the U.S. government, that there is an active situation.

AFP saying more than 100 people are held hostage by what we believe at this stage maybe two gunmen. But details are sketchy indeed. This is unfolding in the last few minutes -- John.

GORANI: David McKenzie, thanks very much.

A terrifying situation, John, there in Bamako at the Radisson. And David was saying there, if anybody is in the vicinity, you know, do stay safe and continue to keep our eye on that unfolding situation.

BERMAN: Yes, a warning from the U.S. embassy. Do not leave. Stay at home. Again, a hostage situation unfolding there.

The breaking news continues here from Paris in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[04:22:30] BERMAN: All right. John Berman along with Hala Gorani in Paris this morning. The French President Francois Hollande pushing for military collaboration against ISIS in Syria, where France says the Paris attacks were planned.

GORANI: All right. So, he wants help with this because he needs it. He has meetings in Washington and Moscow next week to appeal directly to Barack Obama on the one hand, and Vladimir Putin on the other, to forge an anti-ISIS coalition.

BERMAN: France, United States and Russia all carrying out airstrikes right now in Syria. What Francois Hollande believes that coming together and doing it in a coordinated way will mean they would do it better and it would more successful in destroying ISIS there.

GORANI: That is what he wants. Now, individually in terms of France's involvement, it has been ramping up its own strikes on Syrian, targeting the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa.

Let's bring in Ian Lee who is live in Cairo for more on that.

What's the latest, Ian?

IAN LEE, CNN REPORTER: Well, Hala, we are hearing from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights about the situation is on the ground in Raqqa. What they are reporting is an absence of ISIS fighters on the streets during times when we are seeing the airstrikes. There have been dozens of air strikes carried out in Raqqa.

We are seeing ISIS now really affected by that and trying to lay low as they go after headquarters, weapons depots, training facilities. It also has had a toll on civilians, too. There's been at least seven civilians who have been killed.

They describe it as being between a rock and hard place. You have ISIS on one side and airstrikes on the other.

We are hearing from the Syrian Observatory that civilians are allowed to flee Raqqa, but they are only allowed to go to Mosul in neighboring Iraq. We heard yesterday the family members of ISIS leaders have been sent to Mosul as well away from these airstrikes.

Also, yesterday, we're hearing from the Syrian Observatory there were six airstrikes on oil fields, near Deir Ezzor in the eastern part of Syria. As we know, ISIS gets a lot of revenue from oil, about 50 percent of the coalition bombing oil fields. We do not know who has carried out those strikes.

[04:25:04] BERMAN: All right. Ian Lee for us in Cairo watching what is happening in Syria. Thanks so much, Ian.

GORANI: All right. Let's bring in Regis Le Sommier. He's the deputy editor-in-chief of "Paris Match" magazine here in Paris.

Regis, let's first talk about the CCTV footage. We have not seen it. But officials are telling CNN that it shows Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the suspected ringleader of the attacks, at the metro stops around the time of the attacks.

REGIS LE SOMMIER, DEPUTY EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, PARIS MATCH: And one detail is that he didn't take a metro ticket. He went over the fence which tells you what kind of guy he can be.

BERMAN: Careless.

LE SOMMIER: Yes, careless, because if you're planning, you know, such an attack of this scope, this is why from the early beginning when we heard about Abdelhamid Abaaoud, you know, at "Paris Match", we know him, we've been following him, tracking him. One of our reporters had chatted with him over Skype when he was in Mosul.

We know that guy. That guy is a very charismatic figure. He is more of a gang leader than of a planner.

When you see him on the metro station, right by the Bataclan, the operation is ongoing. If you are a mastermind, you take a metro, you don't risk being taken like this. That tells -- you know, there are many detail shows you are careless. You can't be careless if you are the mastermind of the operation.

BERMAN: So, what his role in the operation? What do you suspect he was doing before and during and after the attack?

LE SOMMIER: I believe he had a crucial role of gathering people in Syria.

BERMAN: A recruiter?

LE SOMMIER: Recruiter, but also a fighter. These people were seasoned fighters from Syria. You see the siege they had. They were able to holed up to the police for seven hours straight. They have combat experience.

The woman, of course, didn't have it, but a lot have been trained. They forge blood bond in Syria. Some of them died in the field over there. So, they are very hard and toughened.

So, these people are really the first wave returning. We feared for years that these people might come and strike in our country. This is the demonstration we have --

GORANI: I'm having a hard time reconciling the image of a mastermind in total control of the worst terrorist attack on French soil in living memory and a young guy who jumps over a turnstile at the metro station without buying a ticket and is caught on surveillance footage. I cannot put this together.

LE SOMMIER: For viewers, what is important is to bear in mind who is Mohammed Atta was. Mohammed Atta was the organizer of 9/11. This guy was carefully hidden in society. He had a job. He took every step to make him forgotten.

This time around, we have a guy who brags about going back and forth in Syria, fooling the custom agent in Belgian border when he wants to come back. He tells them in "Dabiq", the Islamic State magazine back in February.

Why go in the open and tell about that? The difference between al Qaeda and ISIS is different because the media aspect. There's the spectacular aspect. You need to be, of course, more showing yourself than the first generation of jihadists.

GORANI: They want to be media. But at the same time, if you are a mastermind, or a ringleader who is taking little risk as possible not to get caught, but here he is in the metro station. I wonder, does that tell us there are those layers above him potentially still in Europe?

LE SOMMIER: What scares me about what you describe is that are we not able to track these people? What are our intelligence services been telling us for years? Is that really true? Can these people go back and forth from Syria to Europe without any problem? Can they just be on the metro camera and not be recognized as a key suspect or somebody?

Because, you know, Abdelhamid Abaaoud is not somebody new. He is somebody -- he is a seasoned fighter. He was talking about that in the magazine with very nice pictures. You know, how can a guy like this go on the Paris metro, be caught on camera and that doesn't trigger anything?

BERMAN: This is exactly what you have to be nimble enough to spot before it happens to prevent the possible attacks.

Regis Le Sommier, thank you so much.

We do have breaking news going on right now. An apparent siege at a hotel in the West African nation of Mali, in the capital of Bamako, a Radisson Hotel. There is an ongoing hostage situation. As many as 170 people being held right now, that from officials in Mali and officials from the Radisson Hotel chain. We're going to have more on that coming up.