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Putin Vows to Aid the West in Terror Fight; Hollande Leads France in Mourning Victims; Sister of Bataclan Attacker Speaks Out. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired November 27, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:29:46] LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't think he can, Carol. We have seen this before. Mr. Putin seems to be attempting to deflect some of the criticism for what's been taking place there. He is certainly supporting Mr. Assad, which does not put him in a very good alliance with Mr. Erdogan because Turkey is primarily against Mr. Assad's government.

So I think it's interesting to hear some of the things Mr. Putin has said in that press conference this morning with Mr. Hollande. First of all it looks like he's now attempting to blame the United States for his aircraft flying over Turkey and being shot down when he has not coordinated any of his aircraft maneuver.

He is certainly dissing Mr. Erdogan and all his government approaches and calling him an ally when there's no indicators that there was ever an alliance between Russia and Turkey. So this is typical truthfully of Mr. Putin's reaction to crisis when they go against him. He tends to double down, attempt to blame others and defend himself.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: So, President Erdogan of Turkey wants to talk face-to-face with Vladimir Putin when they're both in Paris next week for this climate change conference. Vladimir Putin says, no way, I won't even talk to him on the phone.

What do you make of that? Is this an escalation of things or is Mr. Putin still talking tough and maybe he'll bump into the president of Turkey at that conference and actually exchange a few words?

HERTLING: Well, I think that's more than likely. And truthfully, what we've seen is these two very robust personalities, both Mr. Putin and Mr. Erdogan, have been posturing and being very bellicose in front of their populations while behind the scenes, their foreign ministers are continuing to attempt a coordination of sorts.

So you're going to see the diplomatic efforts continue under the radar while these two leaders continue to talk tough. So I think yes, you'll probably see them bump into each other. I think Mr. Erdogan will send the message again, quit flying into our air space and you won't get shot down.

The introduction of the S-400 missiles into Lattakia air base is another indicator that Mr. Putin is attempting to escalate when things should be de-escalating. COSTELLO: And just a last question because I'm curious about

this. I know that President Hollande is also trying to be a mediator between the United States and Russia. Russia is seemingly for Assad staying in office but might Russia be able to provide Assad a graceful exit and maybe that's what people are working on behind the scenes?

HERTLING: Yes, I think that is certainly the hope. There are many that are saying, you can't back this individual when he is -- Mr. Assad, you cannot continue to back him when he is, in fact, a big contributor to the crisis we're seeing across Syria right now.

And I think there are many people attempting to persuade Mr. Putin to talk with his friends in Iran, to have some type of power- sharing agreement with Mr. Assad. And truthfully, Carol, I think the United States would certainly sign up for that if it would tamp down some of the crisis and perhaps bring some of the refugees back while allowing elements of the Free Syrian Force to have some say in the power-sharing agreement in the country in Syria.

Now, that's not going to affect ISIS. ISIS is still going to exist. But I think there could be the potential for a common enemy of many if Mr. Assad basically agrees to a power-sharing agreement.

COSTELLO: All right. Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling -- thanks for joining me this morning.

HERTLING: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM -- you're welcome. Still to come in the NEWSROOM when to use lethal force and when not to -- I took a police training course to find out how police officers decide in those situations. The answer isn't always easy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:37:56] COSTELLO: In a matter of months a Chicago police officer will be put on trial for first-degree murder in the shooting death of an African-American teenager. This is just one in a long line of disputed shootings between the police and their communities. Video evidence helps, of course. Still, it's not often a clear-cut case even if you have the pictures.

So, I decided to put myself through a critical training course designed to help me understand how a responding police officer decides whether or not to use lethal force. The training scenarios were each unique, as are all of the cases that have been scrutinized especially those involving a white police officer shooting a black man.

A new CNN/Kaiser Family Foundation poll shows the issue remains on the minds of black Americans. One in five say they've been treated unfairly by police in the last 30 days. And the majority of Americans, both black and white, say that anger over police treatment of black Americans is a major reason for protests.

That said, the scenario I'm about to show you was designed by former Navy SEAL, FBI special agent and CNN analyst, Jonathan Gilliam. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Are you Miguel Richardson?

A weapons training scenario.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother of a victim received a call from her daughter that her boyfriend had a knife and was threatening to kill her. The victim is deceased. A male fitting the description of this individual named Miguel, olive complexion, 5'6 to 5'8, tan pants, with a black shirt with some logo on it and also a black or dark colored cap.

COSTELLO: It's my judgment call. I'm playing the role of a responding police officer. It's my job to protect the community and decide whether to use lethal force.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's been confirmed that he just murdered somebody. And now he's loitering in the middle of the street. We know that he murdered with a knife. So the potential of him having a knife is very high. You should consider that in your use of deadly force.

COSTELLO: Is your name Miguel Richardson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

[10:40:03] COSTELLO: I'm going to have to ask you to stop moving. I'm going to have to ask you to stop moving.

My heart rate increases, peaking as I engage with a possibly armed suspect.

Stop moving now. Get on the ground. Show me your hands. Get your hands out of your pocket.

What would you do, shoot or hold your fire?

Take your hands out of your pocket. A difficult call -- I decided to shoot.

GILLIAM: Let's see what you had in your pocket. Tell us what you're thinking as you were --

COSTELLO: Well, he refused to take his hands out of his pocket. I knew he might have been armed with a knife. And so I felt if he was close enough to me where if he took his hands out of his pocket with a knife, he could have killed me, so I shot him.

Now, he didn't speak English, which is the only caveat there.

GILLIAM: And that throws a whole another wrench in the whole ball game.

COSTELLO: It turns out this time I made the right choice. But it was a choice I made not knowing whether the suspect was, indeed, armed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A person with a knife at 21 feet if your weapons holstered can get to you and stab you. 21 feet.

COSTELLO: 21 feet. He was much closer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The whole thing is either you -- space gives you, what? Time.

COSTELLO: What if he didn't have a knife in his pocket?

GILLIAM: The threat is imminent. What is -- what is not known to you is what's in his hands, but you can't take the risk as a law enforcement officer that that guy is going to kill you because then he can take your gun away and then kill other people. He gets further in his killing spree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have to assume the risk as a police officer. You're here because of the intelligence. The person not complying, then that gives you on notice. And that's what -- one of the really difficult things to actually deal with.

GILLIAM: Had we taken his knife away from him and he didn't have a knife in this scenario, you would still been justified in what you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Wow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: I want to bring in CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson. You know, it was tough for me to decide whether or not to do that kind of story because I don't want to give the impression that I'm saying any police shooting in existence right now is justified or not. But it is my job to bring perspective to things and that's what I tried to do.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Carol -- I'm glad you did that because it does exactly that which is bring perspective. You know, as I was mentioning to you, one of the things that they did as a former prosecutor in our training, we had to do ride-alongs with the police in addition to go to a place called the fun house. Kind of like a place that you went where things would pop up and you had to decide whether to shoot, not shoot and everything else.

And that was because as a prosecutor you're making charges against people and you're working closely with the police. So it's important to have perspective. Now, there's a legal perspective and then there's, of course, the more practical perspective.

And you know, to this piece you decided to shoot. There's a number of things, for example, if we would base this upon the shooting that just happened that are different about your piece than, of course, what happened. I don't think anybody could prepare for that moment -- Carol.

Look, the bottom line is police officers have a difficult job. And they have a right to go home to their families, of course. People, you know, love them, want them home. And at the end of the day, you want to see them home. That's why legally the Supreme Court has said officers need to make split-second decisions and need to be given the benefit of the doubt because of that.

In addition, the Supreme Court has said, you know, in hindsight it's so easy for us to play Monday morning quarterback to reevaluate and to assess and to look. They're in the moment, I get that. But from a practical perspective, there are many differences between doing the piece like that and what happened on that street.

COSTELLO: Right.

JACKSON: Unfortunately, what's troubling about that is this. You know, when that suspect was approaching you, although he spoke a different language, nonverbal communication is universal. He was staring down the barrel of a gun -- right.

COSTELLO: Right.

JACKSON: That's number one.

Number two, he was approaching you. So it was proper for you to feel somewhat threatened.

And number three, obviously because of that you had to fire.

COSTELLO: Here's the other thing. Because I hear a lot of people say, well, why didn't the police officer shoot them in the leg or in the arm? Why did they have to kill them? And I was in the moment there. This is a fake scenario, of course. But I wasn't thinking about aiming at his leg or his arm. I wanted to shoot him and save my own life so I shot him dead in the chest -- the biggest part of his body.

JACKSON: And they're taught to do that -- they're taught to do that for a number of reasons. Numbers one, officers are taught to shoot center mass. And that's because you want to terminate the threat that's posed to you.

Number two, you don't shoot for the leg because it's a smaller target and it won't terminate the threat but more importantly, it could miss and it could harm someone else and there could be ricochet and everything else.

In your scenario, you're alone -- ok. In the scenario that we've been talking about for the last couple of days, you know, where you have the 17-year-old shot, there were are a number of other officers there. And I say that because certainly, your threshold in terms of what you feared for by yourself would seemingly be a lot different when you have your brother and sister officers around you.

[10:45:04] In addition to that, he was approaching you. In the scenario in Chicago, it appeared as though the officer was approaching the actual suspect. But I think things like this certainly lend perspective. And at the end of the day, they teach us that officers have a very difficult job.

Having said that, there's still an obligation to act reasonably and responsibly when you're taking someone's life.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. And the majority of police officers that I have talked to would readily admit that there are bad cops and there are bad shootings and they are readily able to admit to that. But by and large, they say, you know, most of us don't want to kill anyone because the consequences of living, even for the police officer are far-reaching.

JACKSON: I think so. I'm one that believes that the vast majority, the vast majority, overwhelming number of officers out there are doing their job. They're protecting, they're serving and they're doing work that is thankless work and ultimately scrutinized, right, by people like me, after the fact.

At the same time, training's important. Policies are important. Protocols are important, judgment is important. It all goes into that split second when you have to make that decision.

And that's why lawyers like me will analyze and say, was there an imminent threat? And did the force you use, was it proportionate to the threat or did you just keep shooting and shooting and shooting. And as the Supreme Court has said, did you act reasonably? Not in our eyes as laymen, but reasonable officers in your position, would they have done a similar thing?

And those are the questions that need to be answered. Great piece. It lent -- I think it gives a lot of perspective for what people go through. And that fun house that they take you through in the training it was unbelievable. I made a series of mistakes.

Unfortunately, Carol, when you're an officer and have a gun, that mistake can be fatal. That's why training is so important.

COSTELLO: Joey Jackson, thank you so much.

JACKSON: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I so appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, her brother is responsible for one of the worst terrorist attacks in France in the past 50 years. CNN sits down with the sister of a Bataclan attacker, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:31] COSTELLO: France paused today to remember the 130 victims of the Paris terror attacks that happened exactly two weeks ago.

President Hollande led his nation in the solemn ceremony at one of France's most revered historic sites, the burial place of Napoleon. He called November 13th the day of the betrayal and vowed to avenge those who died.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): I want to say quite simply these words. France will be alongside you. We will unite our forces to calm the pain. And after burying the dead, we have to repair to all of you. I promise you solemnly, that France will do everything to destroy the army of the fanatics who carried out these crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: In the meantime, the sister of one of the Bataclan attackers is speaking out. She sat down with our Hala Gorani, who joins me now live from Paris. Hi -- Hala.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi -- Carol. Well, it was the first time she's expressed herself on international television. It is the sister of Sami Amimour (ph), the 28-year-old, one of the three Bataclan attackers who ended up blowing himself up inside the concert hall.

Of course, many of our viewers remember it was the site of the deadliest attack on November 13th. 89 people were murdered in cold blood there. Sami Amimour was a `French citizen. He traveled to Syria. It's believed his father even traveled in 2013 there to try convince his son to come back to no avail.

And what our viewers might find interesting Carol is that family stayed in touch with him via messaging, via Skype practically the entire time he was in Syria. They say he didn't know that he'd come back to France and said they were not aware of his plans to conduct this terrorist attack.

I spoke to his sister. I asked her, when was the last time you were in touch with your brother and what was the last conversation you had with him -- take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: In your last contact with him, was it just an ordinary conversation?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GORANI: Reporter: with absolutely no sign that anything like this could happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no sign. Totally normal conversation. I asked him how he was and he told me, listen, I am very well. I have a lot of things to deal with at the moment, so I will call you very soon. Send kisses to everyone and to my cat.

GORANI: how do you reconcile your brother who says, kiss the parents, kiss the cat, you know, I'll call you soon. The little boy you grew up with -- with the man who so coldly murdered dozens of helpless people in a concert hall?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me there's no link. It's almost like it's not him. There's no chance. I know that it's real, but --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: And Carol, there's still a certain level of denial. You hear it there from his sister saying look, first we believe this is not possible. We know our brother, we know our son. He was a nice guy, et cetera. But you have to ask yourself just if there was a little bit of naivete here.

[10:55:00] I mean they knew he traveled to Syria. I'm sure they were aware of the types of things that ISIS was up to, all these videos, all these terrible atrocities they committed. But she still says, we really didn't think he was capable of doing this and we learned of his actions along with everyone else.

COSTELLO: All right. Hala Gorani reporting live from Paris this morning.

Checking some other top stories for you at 55 minutes past -- the Pope spent his final day in Kenya with the country's poorest citizens. While in the slums, the Pope lashed out at Kenya's elite for neglecting the poor. The next stop on the Pope's African tour is a visit with the Ugandan president.

A large chunk of debris from a SpaceX rocket has been found floating off a remote British island. The rocket blew up back in June just moments take off from Cape Canaveral. The debris was found more than 3,000 miles away, it was first spotted by boaters off the Isle of Scilly.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Bolduan after a break.

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