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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Examining thje Chicago Police Shooting Case; . Aried 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 27, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN: Is that more or less, average, or above average, or below average when it comes to policing and people filing complaints?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, look at it -- I can't speak specifically to this guy, Van Dyke, because I, I don't know the nature of each complaint. But law enforcement is on the street every day. That's their job. Like a doctor goes in the hospital or a lawyer goes into court, officers are on the street every day and by and large they're interacting with the public when the public's not real happy. So you're going to get a lot of complaints. People do get complaints throughout their careers. I don't know if they got the same, if they get the same complaints, or the number that are there. But here, here's the thing that I'm seeing right now. You know, I've gotten a lot of heat because I'm backing the use of force, not the excessive use of force, but the use of deadly force in this scenario. However, if an officer is a problem, the department has to take care of that person and be willing and have policies set so they can fire them. At the same time, we're, we're just talking about a nine-year-old that's killed in a community, and you're talking about in this particular case with Officer Van Dyke, a 17-year-old running through a neighborhood with a knife. None of these things are normal so, as law enforcement cleans up the department and sets policies to get rid of bad officers, I suggest this community in Chicago, which has a real problem, and communities all across the United States, that they go in and look at the morality of what's going on inside these neighborhoods and start taking care of the neighborhood and clean themselves up.

BANFIELD: In fact, the superintendent just said he signed the death warrant for one of these gangs. But I want you to speak to that issue specifically because, as a, as an attorney, you know full well whatever you've done in the past doesn't necessarily get into your current case. In the case of this officer, I have read accounts that that is not an unusual number of complaints for the number of years he was on the force. And it might not matter anyway.

JOEY JACKSON, LEGAL ANALYST: You know, there are lies and then there are statistics. And so statistics we can play with. This is what I do know from at least evaluating what I see and what I've learned about this case. You have 12,000 officers in Chicago. You have 465 of them who have 20 complaints or more, OK? And depending upon what you look at, either Van Dyke had 18 or 20, he's up there. That's about three percent of the police force. So, you know, I don't know how... BANFIELD: Half of them unfounded. That it's been reported half of them...

JACKSON: You, you have -- let's get specifically right so what his complaints were. But, again, looking at those facts, 12,000 officers, 465 officers, about three percent would have as many complaints as him. So this tells me something about this officer. Now, how is that going to be used in this case? The prosecution of course is going to want to look at those complaints and want to introduce them at trial. Not to show that he had a propensity, not to show that he acted in conformity with this, but to show that he has an intent, a prior plan and scheme, and this was his actual M.O., and that's problematic.

BANFIELD: Let me just jump in for a moment only because our Ryan Young is live on the street in Chicago and, as I understand it, I think, Ryan, were you able to find the Reverend Jesse Jackson? I want to jump down to you on street level.

RYAN YOUNG, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN, CHICAGO: Yeh, we are, we're with Jesse Jackson and Congressman Rush. We're walking along with them now. Look, both of you gentlemen are here and I want to make sure you guys have a chance. As you're walking, you see the power of this march.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: The (positive) power shall (link brothers) who are here as the Black Youth Project 100 is that you see that Black Youth Project 100, Black Lives Matter, and numerous officials all around a single proposition in our urban areas. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The (abandoned) urban policy, drugs and guns and jobs, and there is no substantial urban policy given the violence and the reinvestment, reconstruction. In this case, while Lequan has captured our attention, 450 been killed in Chicago, 450 killed this year, 2,700 shot. Seventy-five percent of those persons have not been captured who did the killing. We've got to (recite them others). There's been a rush these last few days to bring about some relief. Last (inaudible) those who saw the tape and held it up for 13 months must be made accountable. The police chief saw it no doubt and sat on it. And the nine police who were his accomplices who saw it did not recommend he be fired. And the State's Attorney, all need to go.

YOUNG: Thank you, Reverend. Congressman Rush, you can make changes, but what should happen now?

REP. BOBBY L. RUSH, D-ILLINOIS: Well, we're going to keep marching, we're going to keep protesting, we're going to keep marching until we get it right. We haven't just started this. Forty-five years ago we were in the same position. There was the murder of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. Twenty-six years later, here we are again. (Pointing to each other) We want the State's Attorney gone, we want to convene a new grand jury, a grand jury. We want the, the, the police indicted and defendant prosecuted. We want all of these things. Our, our, our fight for justice will not stop. These young people are taking the lead right now.

YOUNG: (And I don't want to stop) because, as a young person, how do you feel to see all this happening?

CHARLENE CARRUTHERS: So my name is Charlene Carruthers, and I'm the National Director of the Black Youth Project 100. Young black people from various organizations are calling on the police to be defunded. We live in a city where the Chicago Police Department takes up 40 percent of our city's budget, while just a few years ago we closed over 50 schools. What signal does that send about the value of the lives of young black people when we don't have a school to go to? We need immediate firing, the resignation of Anita Alvarez, we need Mayor Rahm Emanuel to resign. We need Superintendent McCarthy to resign. And not to be in system where cops who kill our people, not only take our lives, they take our money and they do not invest in our future.

YOUNG: Thank you so much, thank you so much. Look, the march stopped just for a second so we could do that interview. We're walking amongst the people. This is what they wanted to do. They are shutting parts of Michigan Avenue down. We are getting to the parts where there's Ann Taylor, Hugo Boss, Nordstrom's. All these stores that we're walking by right now, people can't get to them with their car. They can walk to them, but right now the protestors are covering the streets.

BANFIELD: That is what you call a citizens disruption and it is peaceful, which is very important to note. This is something that President Obama had outlined, that he was extraordinarily proud of the citizens of Chicago for keeping the protest peaceful. We're going to continue to watch these pictures. Ryan, excellent job. I know that is very difficult to do. But he's done a very skilled and adept job at getting that interview for us. Right after the break we're going to continue our discussion of the legalities that surround what happened. The protestors are livid, but there is law at work and it is a tough case, but it doesn't mean it is impossible. We're going to discuss that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We've got live pictures again for you on the streets of Chicago. It is Black Friday, typically a day for shopping across this country, but these protestors have descended upon The Magnificent Mile in Chicago, known for its line after line of stores, to specifically disrupt the economics of Black Friday with the message that they want the Superintendents of the police force there to step down, they want the State's Attorney to step down, and they want the federal government to investigate the shooting death of a 17-year-old who was fired upon 16 times, the majority of those bullets when he was on the ground. Lequon McDonald is the subject of many of those protestors' angst. The police are out, but you can hear them yelling "16 shots."

PROTESTORS: Sixteen shots, 16 shots, 16 shots, 16 shots.

BANFIELD: Sixteen shots. Again, the majority of the shots when Lequon McDonald was on the ground. There are a lot of issues in this case and we are going to talk at length about it. But first I want to take you out somewhere in that crowd, and it's very hard to pinpoint where he, is Father Michael Pfleger, who is going to be able to speak to me via telephone as he marches with those protestors. And if you don't know who Father Michael Pfleger is, he's been very outspoken in this community since the death of Tyshawn Lee, the 9-year-old child who was executed gangland style in an alley in a retribution-style gang killing to avenge another murder and to punish his father. The allegation that his father belongs to another gang. Today an arrest and a first degree charge of murder against that person who was arrested, Corey Morgan. Father Pfleger, can you hear me?

REV. MICHAEL L. PFLEGER, SOCIAL ACTIVIST: Yes, I can hear you now.

BANFIELD: Father, Father Pfleger, I want to talk to you on these two stories that you're involved in today, the first of which was the announcement by the Chicago police that they've made an arrest in that brutal and barbaric murder of Tyshawn Lee, the nine-year-old boy. But then today the police not in the good graces because we're not talking about an arrest this (inaudible), we're talking about the killing of this 17-year-old. What is your message for the people of Chicago and for the protestors with whom you're marching right now?

PFLEGER: Well, I think, I think what we're seeing today is murder of black youth is going on (two hand). It's going on in the community which's got to stop. (inaudible) they arrested and filed charges today, but they also have got to remember that the community with major (inaudible). (They) do great work, as well as the community. But we also have to be just as strong about what happened to Lequon, and that's why people in Chicago are (mad). They've shut down the shopping areas, The Magnificent Mile, today. The streets taken over, and we're trying to let people know that we're not going to, we're not going to tolerate this in Chicago. The State's Attorney sat on this for 13 months, they've paid out $5 million, and, and the federal government has still not responded to this charge. This is unacceptable. People of Chicago are saying enough of the killing of black children.

BANFIELD: Is there any thought among the protestors though about what's happened in the last hour, the news conference the Chicago police gave to announce the arrest and hopefully a path of justice for the death of, of Tyshawn Lee?

PFLEGER: I'm sorry, I didn't (inaudible) your question. Concerning what?

BANFIELD: Yeh, I know it's hard to hear because you're amidst the protestors. I'll try again. The Chicago police in the hour before we came live, and we were able to come to you in this protest, protesting the killing of Lequon McDonald, do these protestors have any affinity or thought towards the police for having made an arrest and a charge of first degree murder in the, in the brutal execution of Tyshawn Lee.

PFELGER: I, I'm not even sure how many people out here actually know all that. But what I do know is today is a (inaudible) around Chicago to say we're tired of this police cover up and we're tired of the State's Attorney's cover up. Today we want to make sure in Chicago we're not going to tolerate any more. I can barely hear you right now. Probably got to get off. It's getting louder and louder, but I know people out here are mad in Chicago and business as usual is over for (inaudible) Chicago. BANFIELD: Father Michael Pfleger on the telephone with us as he

marches among those protestors. You'll have to forgive us, it's been very difficult to track him down. We know he's in amongst these peaceful protestors, but the only way to actually catch him was via the cell phone, and we appreciate him making that effort to talk to us about this today. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll touch back on the streets of Chicago and the defense of the man these people, without question you could say, want to go down for the murder of Lequon McDonald.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Live pictures once again on this Black Friday, notoriously a shopping day, but today a day of protest down on the streets of Chicago. These are live pictures. As you can see, you know, on The Magnificent Mile and, up until now, things have looked very peaceful. They still do, but you can see obviously a little bit of consternation in the crowd of protestors there. I can't tell you why. There are a lot of different shots coming in all at the same time. There are many who have turned out to voice their support for these protestors and their anger over the shooting death of 17-year-old Lequon McDonald, a young man who was shot 16 times, the majority of the bullets fired after he was down, albeit with a knife in his hand. And that is a critical element. There are a lot of people in this crowd right now who say that everything that happened in that shooting was indefensible. But there is at least one defense attorney who says it is not. And I want to talk about that job of that defense attorney with my expert CNN law enforcement analyst, Johnathan Gilliam, who's a former police officer and former FBI Special Agent, and also HLN legal analyst and defense attorney himself, Joey Jackson. Jonathan Gilliam, first to you. With your law enforcement training you enlightened me as to some of the training that these police officers get. 'Cause the first thing from a lay person's view is you did not need to shoot that young man, he is on the ground. So what if he had a knife in his hand, he wasn't going anywhere near you. Why is that maybe only the lay person's view and not that police officer's view?

GILLIAM: Because police officers are taught not just tactics, but the history of how those tactics developed. And with the knife, and the same with a gun, you have to look at each individual threat and the standoff distance in which it becomes dangerous.

BANFIELD: So I've got some video actually that helps me to illustrate your point.

GILLIAM: Sure.

BANFIELD: A training video that shows the difference between someone at 10 feet away from you with a knife, 15 feet away from you, brandishing a knife, and 21 feet away from you, brandishing a knife. So maybe start at the 10 foot (roll). If we could roll some of that video, it'll help show what the, what the police are trained. Explain what's happening.

GILLIAM: So basically this guy right here's at 10 feet and you see how quickly he can actually approach and close on the officer before he can even draw his weapon.

BANFIELD: OK. And then in the, in the next scenario.

GILLIAM: Even though this is at 15 feet, you would think that it would change quite a bit. But the reality is, if an officer doesn't have his weapon drawn already, they can actually close and stab the officer before they actually get a shot off.

BANFIELD: And now you're 21 feet.

GILLIAM: Twenty-one feet, but here's the thing to remember. Even at 21 feet, he'll be able to get a shot off, but is it an accurate shot? And that's the thing. All this comes down to defense of life. Are you able to defend your life, the pubic's lives, by having an accurate shot. And, as a person charges you, it doesn't mean that you're going to have an accurate shot just because you pull a gun and shoot it.

BANFIELD: So the, the critical thing here, Joey, is that the person charges you and a lot of critics have said Lequon McDonald wasn't charging anybody. He wasn't even walking towards. And yet there was 10 feet, so that was the worst-case scenario in the training video. Take me now into that courtroom in the defense of this officer, 'cause you know his lawyer is going to invoke this.

JACKSON: Without question. Let's talk about both sides, OK? The prosecution is going say that those issues, what we just saw, that's hogwash. Why? It's completely distinguishable from the facts of this particular case. Now in these videos you see that the officer doesn't have the gun drawn, right? And at the time of course they're attacked. In this scenario you had officers who had their guns drawn, were trained on a particular suspect...

BANFIELD: No, at this point this 10-footer doesn't have his gun drawn.

JACKSON: That's a, doesn't have the -- right. And of course he gets stabbed. At 10 feet he doesn't have the gun drawn.

BANFIELD: And you're saying...

JACKSON: In this case...

BANFIELD: The officer (inaudible).

JACKSON: ...the officer had his weapon drawn, trained on the suspect, and the suspect was moving away. And so you're going to have the prosecutor say that it's distinguishable and entirely different from this. Of course the defense wants this in, what we just saw, to give the perspective of the particular office, to demonstrate how dangerous it is to be an officer and to demonstrate how much time it takes, very little time, in order for you to be attacked.

BANFIELD: All right. I'll have to leave it there, but we're going to continue our coverage live on the streets. Jonathan, thank you. And, Joeys, as always, thank you and have a lovely Thanksgiving weekend.

GILLIAM: You got it. Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you (inaudible).

BANFIELD: Thank you, everyone, for watching. It's been good to have you with us. My colleague, Brianna Keiler, is live. She's in for Wolf, and she's going to take over the helm right after this quick break. Have a great weekend with your families.

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