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Jury Selection Continues in Freddie Gray Case; Chicago Police Chief Fired; Mother Wants Police Video of Son's Death Released; Giuliani Reacts to Trumps Claim of Thousands Cheering in New Jersey on 9/11; Cruz and Rubio Slowly Rising in Polls. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired December 01, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: In fact, two said they actually knew him.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They did, indeed. So we have a jury pool much like we expected for the second day in a row. Mostly African-American, everybody knew about the Freddie Gray case. They all were affected by the curfew. And all except for one knew that the Gray family settled for $6.4 million with the city. Clearly, this is going to present a huge problem for the prosecution and for the judge in trying to get a jury sat. Yesterday, he came on the bench and said, in a day or two, we're going to have a jury and a trial will start. Today, he came on the bench in front of the other 75 potential jurors and said, maybe in a few days we'll have a jury. So my sense is that this judge is now realizing it may be more difficult than he even thought to get a jury in Baltimore City -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Miguel, stay with me, because you have been covering Baltimore since the beginning. I want you to join in the conversation.

But, Mel, I'm turning to you.

I have questions as far as why this case is the first case. But first, on the questions, what sorts of questions are these jurors getting.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Everything you can imagine. First of all, if you know Freddie Gray, you're off the jury immediately. You're not allowed to know the parties. Secondly, you want to know, how did the riots affect you. What do you think about the case? What are the things that you know about the case? The more open ended questions the better. The reason why is because when you get somebody talking you get them speaking in their own words. They are going to start sharing things that they would never share in a yes or no question. What is the prosecutor looking for and the defense looking for? They are looking for people that can be impartial, that are not predisposed to think that the police are bad or Freddie Gray was somehow not killed, that they can look at the facts of the case and make an independent determination. The more they talk and answer open-ended questions, the more likely you're going to hear something that will allow you to challenge them as a juror.

BALDWIN: When we were there in April, I remember it as these officers were charged, and one of the thoughts from smart legal minds was maybe one of the officers will turn on the others and that would help the other cases. That said, as they are trying to select jurors, is it too late for this first case to reach a deal?

ROBBINS: Absolutely not.

BALDWIN: It's not?

ROBBINS: No way.

BALDWIN: Wow.

ROBBINS: So first of all, this is my personal opinion. They typically, in a case where the cases are tried separately with multiple defendants, you pick the strongest case you have first.

BALDWIN: Better probability for conviction?

ROBBINS: Absolutely. The reason why is if you get a conviction, that sends a message to everybody. In particular, it sends a message to the other five defendants that there's a strong case against you. That might make certain defendants turn on the other defendants and might make them plea and a whole host of things happen. It also allows you to know by trying your strongest case first what's the best way to lay the case out? Who are the best witnesses? What's the most compelling way to lay the timeline out? This is a complicated case with multiple actors that happened over a period of minutes. These are officers, some of whom who knew Freddie Gray. There are so many nuances in this case. So you better believe they picked the strongest case first.

And by the way, as they are trying a case, the other five officers are watching intently. And there may be somebody that is thinking, oh, my gosh, I can't risk this. I can't risk this. They said, if I testified against everybody else, then I wouldn't go to jail or they won't charge me or they'll give me a deal that keeps me out of jail. So I'm sure that everybody on the prosecution side is still working that angle to try to turn somebody's state evidence. You have to believe even though there has to be a lot of pressure to not turn on the brotherhood of the fellow police department --

BALDWIN: You never know how that can go.

ROBBINS: -- you never know in those moments what somebody is thinking.

BALDWIN: Mel Robbins, thank you very much.

And, Miguel Marquez, thank you so much, in Baltimore.

We'll be back at this tomorrow, I'm sure.

Coming up next, back to our breaking news. In Chicago today, the police chief has been fired just a week after that dash cam video has been released showing a police officer shooting and killing 17-year- old Laquan McDonald from last year. Days before that shooting, another young black man was shot and killed

by police in Chicago. And the mother of that young man is now fighting to get that dash cam video released. She will join me live with her story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:39:05] BALDWIN: Chicago's police chief has been fired following protests and backlash over the fatal police shooting of a Chicago teenager. Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel says he has asked for his resignation because the trust in the police department has been -- his words -- "shaken and eroded." It follows the release of videotape of last year's shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald that took more than a year for the video to come out publicly.

And now, the mother in yet another Chicago young man's death says her son was also killed by police. She's accusing the city of sitting on this tape. 25-year-old Ronald Johnson was gunned down just eight days before McDonald in October of 2014.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOROTHY HOLMES, SON KILLED BY POLICE: And just got to stop you all covering up this murder. It's been over a year now that my son has been murdered and you all still haven't did you all's jobs to convict of murder. Shouldn't nobody have to go through this pain over their kids, because I'm quite sure they loved theirs just as well as we loved ours. And my son is not here and he has a birthday coming up in December 14th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:40:19] BALDWIN: And Ronald Johnson's mother, Dorothy Holmes, joins me now along with her attorney, Michael Oppenheimer.

So welcome to both of you.

And Ms. Holmes, I'm so sorry for the loss of your son.

If I may just begin with you, and ask you, what happened to Ronnie?

HOLMES: He was killed by CPD on October 12, 2014, basically, 300 South Cane (ph) Drive.

BALDWIN: Can you tell me more about what he was doing at that time, that day, what led to this?

HOLMES: He was at a party over there in that neighborhood. And the car that he was in had had got shot up and he jumped out and ran, and in the process of him running, he was murdered.

BALDWIN: And you are accusing Chicago police of not only, you say, killing him, but sitting on the tape. Tell me why you think that.

HOLMES: Yes. Because this happened a year ago and I've been fighting since then to get the video released and they still haven't released it.

BALDWIN: What's the reason they have given you as far as why they haven't released it.

MICHAEL OPPENHEIMER, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD JOHNSON FAMILY: If I can maybe jump in on that.

BALDWIN: Please do.

OPPENHEIMER: We filed a federal civil rights lawsuit after the shooting and the killing of Ronald Johnson. Immediately, the city went in and obtained a protective order from the federal judge asking that the video not be released. I then filed a Freedom of Information Request to get the video that was denied by the Chicago Police Department and the city. We have since filed a FOIA, a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit to get the video released. The city and the police have been blocking us at every step. They don't want this video released. They sat on this eight days prior to the McDonald shooting, and here we are again, same old story, covering this up. And all they have done is tried to keep this quiet so the public can't see it. So the people that need to see this to know what's going on in this police department can't see it.

BALDWIN: So here you are both of you fighting to have the tape of Ronald released and his death that night last year.

And, Dorothy, to you, now you see this video of Laquan's death. Have you watched the video?

HOLMES: Have I watched which video?

BALDWIN: Not the video of your son that you're trying to have released, but the video of Laquan that was killed after your son, when he was shot 16 times.

HOLMES: I -- I couldn't watch it after I seen the first shots when he went down. I couldn't watch it no more after that.

BALDWIN: Explain the emotions you were feeling especially after going through what you did days before with your own son?

HOLMES: It brought back a lot of memories and it brought back memories to what I had think on the tape of my son.

BALDWIN: Michael, we want to get the Chicago police's side. We've reached out to Chicago Order of Police. We have gotten nothing from them so far, although their spokesperson has told other outlets that, since the shooting, that Dorothy's son, that he had a gun and that he pointed his gun at officers before he was shot. I know you disagree. You tell me your version of events, please, sir.

OPPENHEIMER: This night this happened, the Chicago Police Department issued a statement through their spokesman that said, as they always do at these police shootings, that he turned and pointed a gun, that they feared for their safety, so the officer fired for his protection and the protection of others. That was before they saw the video. The video is very clear in that, number one, he does not have any weapon in his hand or anything in his hand. He is running full speed away from the police. The officer got out of his car, took three steps, aimed towards Ronald's back and fired five shots. Two of those struck him. One went through the back and severed the juggler vein and went out through his eye socket. The police say then say that when he fell, they recovered a gun from his right hand. First of all, he never turned and pointed anything. He never even turned, and that's clear on the video. Since then the police have changed their story about him turning. They have been caught in a bundle of lies. The lies keep continuing. There's no way that that gun was in his hand. There was nothing in his hand. We are alleging and we believe and it's clear they planted that gun after he was executed by Officer Hernandez.

[14:44:56] BALDWIN: Dorothy, if I may end with you. From a mother's perspective, I know you're trying to get this video released publicly, but now knowing that the top cop is out today, what do you want? What does justice look like for your son from your city?

HOLMES: We got McCarthy out of there. Now we want Alvarez gone. And we want Rahm Emanuel gone. Because it shouldn't have took a year for them to look at the tapes to see that these cops are not good cops, as they are supposed to be. And I'm going to keep fighting until I get this dash cam footage of my son being murdered released.

BALDWIN: Dorothy Holmes, let's talk about again when that happens.

Michael Oppenheimer, thank you so much.

To both of you --

OPPENHEIMER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: -- thank you.

Turning next here to politics, Donald Trump claims he saw thousands and thousands of people in New Jersey cheering after the attacks on 9/11, 2011. Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York City at the time, CNN asked him what he saw that day. His response, next.

And Ted Cruz says most violent felons are Democrats. And he doesn't stop there. What the rising Republican said about condoms, birth control, and what he did in college.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:50] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CO-ANCHOR, NEW DAY: Why is Donald Trump allowed to say things that had you said that when you were running for president, what would have happened?

(LAUGHTER)

RUDY GIULIANI, (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: I would have been thrown out of the race. He is judged by a different standard. Maybe it's because of his background of on "The Apprentice," an entertainer, and the fact that all -- he's been a big personality. He almost like speaks in headlines. Gets your attention. And then a lot of the points aren't very substantive, but the headline --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Rudy Giuliani reacting to claims, some of which are free of fact.

While Trump remains on the top of the polls, two candidates have been in a slow but steady rise. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, they are both Cuban-American. Both former lawyers-turned-freshman-U.S. Senators. But that's just about where the similarities end. As they rise, they are taking aim at one another.

So to discuss this and a lot more, let me bring in Jamie Weinstein, senior editor of "The Daily Caller"; and David Chalian, CNN political director.

So great to have you both on.

David Chalian, let me take it to you first.

When you look at these two, the glove seems to be coming off. Why? What's changed?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think if you ask any Republican operative, campaign manager out there, when they look at the total field here, the establishment believes that, at the end of the day, Cruz and Rubio are going to be two of the final Republicans standing in this contest. I think if you talk to both of those campaigns, Brooke, they are keenly aware of that and they're keeping a very watchful eye on each other, and they are doing this shadow boxing that's now getting more engaged as we head to the end of the year and we're two months away from the voting beginning. If you look today, Ted Cruz is taking on Marco Rubio over what he calls Rubio's quote, "military adventurism." In an interview in "Bloomberg News," he's going after Rubio for being hawkish on foreign policy and trying to appeal to the more Libertarian streak in the party that is normally Rand Paul's base. And that's just one place they are fighting on.

BALDWIN: They are fighting over, Jamie, immigration, national security, their records, but when you look at the polling and look state specific, Cruz is searching in Iowa, Rubio, not so much. Why?

JAMIE WEINSTEIN, SENIOR EDITOR, THE DAILY CALLER: He has cultivated that in Iowa trying to cultivate that evangelical community. Rubio, it is his first extended stay was last week. But what we're seeing is what David said, these contenders have run excellent campaigns and they see them emerging as that second tier, right below Donald Trump and Ben Carson, and they believe they have a chance to really take this thing. So they are trying to differentiate themselves on immigration, foreign policy, spying programs, to try to appeal, and paint the other one as moderate or out of touch with the Republican base. They see a real battle for the nomination. It will come down perhaps to them or maybe them and Donald Trump and Ben Carson. BALDWIN: And we'll get to that and to your recent article, Jamie, in just a second.

But, David Chalian, to you, if we're talking about how these could be some of the final few standing, and if Cruz is doing well in Iowa, where and how does Rubio really break out?

CHALIAN: It's a great question. Obviously, not all things are exactly equal when you look at each candidate's strategy. Ted Cruz has bet everything on Iowa as the catapult for him. Marco Rubio placing bets more evenly. I will say this. Marco Rubio doesn't necessarily need to outright win one of those two first early states. What he needs to do is win the establishment lane, Brooke. If he is the guy that comes out on top of John Kasich, Jeb Bush, Chris Christie, and is seen as the establishment lane winner in those early states, that will propel him forward in this contest.

BALDWIN: So if you have Rubio on one end and maybe Ted Cruz in the middle and Trump on one end, although they have been vying for the similar base. Jamie, in your piece in "The Daily Caller," you lead with, "If Donald Trump wins the Republican nomination, some of the most prominent conservative voices say they would find it difficult if not impossible to support him." So if they can't bring themselves to vote for Trump and aren't voting for Hillary Clinton, what's their plan, Jamie?

[14:55:12] WEINSTEIN: I spoke to Bill Krystal of the "Weekly Standard" and he said you have to find someone to run as a protest candidate, maybe a third party candidate, because he can't support Donald Trump whether it's over his kind of nasty rhetoric on the campaign trail, his positions, which in many ways are to the left of center and has been historically, so they can't support a guy that goes around acting the way he's acted, calling John McCain not a hero. So they're going to have to find an alterative. And there's a lot of these guys. The question is whether these elite opinion makers, these kinds of Washington wise men, who write columns and edit magazines, will matter in terms of Republican voters, grassroots voters. Will they abandon Trump if he's the nominee? That's a different question altogether.

BALDWIN: That will be a whole other conversation we may be having in a couple months.

Jamie Weinstein and David Chalian, thank you both very much.

On politics today, coming up next, this week, after being elected, a big city mayor has been found dead. Police say he did not commit suicide and now they are trying to figure out what happened and why in this mystery.

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