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Gunman's Travel. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 03, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Brooke Baldwin, and you're watching CNN's special coverage of one of the country's deadliest massacres in our history.

A disturbed husband and wife drop off their little baby, drive to a holiday party and kill 14 people. Fourteen people whose names we don't even know yet, some whose bodies still lie where they died. Fourteen people who just showed up to a work party on what should have been a normal Wednesday with their colleagues and would never go home, killed at the hands of one of those colleagues, a sick turn of events that has investigators looking into a possible act of terrorism.

These killers, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, died in a hail of police bullets, meaning we may never know exactly what drove them to murder. But law enforcement sources tell CNN that it appears the man may have been, their word, "radicalized" and communicating with terror suspects known to the FBI.

Standing by we have CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank. Also my friend and colleague Poppy Harlow is live for us there near the scene in San Bernardino. So we'll talk to both of them.

But first let's go to our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, who has more now on what sources are saying about this gunman's possible ties to terror.

Evan, what do you know?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: We do know that law enforcement officials do believe that there are indications that Syed Farook was radicalized. Now, they believe that that could be at least part of the motivation for why this shooting took place yesterday in San Bernardino. That doesn't explain everything, however. They still believe that there might be some indication of a workplace motive. Some kind of workplace beef that - that at least may have triggered or played a role in what happened yesterday, so some kind of hybrid explanation of what happened yesterday.

We do know that officials have found indications that he was in touch with and had communications with one - at least one terrorism suspect. Somebody who was being looked at by the FBI and that the FBI was already investigating and that there was some communications over the phone, by social media that are now being analyzed simply to try to figure out whether or not that also played a role in this radicalization and in what might have - what occurred yesterday.

We also know that they're looking at some overseas communications. Now, we don't know whether that indicates that anybody was ordering what happened yesterday to occur. Again, there's no indication of that yet. We do not know of any international terrorism links, but, again, that's something that the FBI is trying to chase down and make sure that they understand exactly how that fits in.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

PEREZ: Again, the thing that the FBI is trying to make sure they do is not foreclose any of these possibilities. We know that they found, for instance, some kind of homemade bomb lab. It's - you know, we know that they found a backpack at the scene of the first shooting, Chris, and apparently he - this is where he made these bombs. This is something that he had rigged together -

CUOMO: Right -

PEREZ: A remote control car and was intended to detonate yesterday and did not happen. We don't know exactly why that did not happen. So, again, these are all the pieces of the FBI is putting together. Indications of radicalization, however, is what has moved the FBI and the president to make this an FBI investigation because there are indications that this is where this is going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so that was Evan Perez, our justice correspondent.

Paul Cruickshank, let me bring you in now, our CNN terrorism analyst here.

And I just want to be crystal clear, when we're hearing that this shooter may have been considered radicalized, what does that really mean?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM CORRESPONDENT: Well, it suggests that he had become at some point in some way an Islamist extremist. I think that's what they're suggesting here, that he was radicalized by this ideology, this world view that various terrorist groups have been propagating, this distorted interpretation of Islam, which justifies these kind of acts of violence. I think that's what we're talking about here, Brooke, when it comes to radicalization.

What is not clear is the degree to which this was - the full part of his motivation. It appears that there was perhaps a blended motivation here that this was partly perhaps some kind of personal grudge against colleagues. Because, after all, he could have gone and shot up a shopping mall or a sports arena and killed a lot more people, but he chose to target his colleagues, some kind of blend between that a - perhaps a political objective as well. And we've seen those blended motivations in the past. We saw that in Oklahoma in September of 2014 where a Muslim convert, Alton Nolen, beheading a female co-worker at a food processing plant right after he was fired. And he put bin Laden pictures and beheadings up on his FaceBook page. And we also saw that blended motivation in France of June of this year

where a transport delivery worker, who had a grudge against his boss, beheaded his boss and put his decapitated head on the fence of a chemical plant, which he then tried to blow up -

BALDWIN: Yes.

[14:05:08] CRUICKSHANK: And then he took a selfie and sent it to ISIS. So we have seen these blended motivations in the past where it's a little bit of one and a little bit of the other. That would have seemed to be what we're seeing here as well.

BALDWIN: Here is one of the things that scares me, you know, when you hear the police chief talk about the thousands of rounds of ammunitions these two had, whether it was on themselves, in their tactical vests , in the car, in this home they were renting, the preparations not - neither of them on anyone's radar. Not a single one. How do you prevent something like this then?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, I think there's a very short answer and it is, you cannot prevent all of these kinds of attacks. Very difficult if the person is really not on the radar screen. It appears, from what we're hearing, that he perhaps was on the edge of the radar screen because they were aware of some contacts with people that they had under investigation, but only on the edge of the radar screen, not a priority part of investigations from the FBI perspective.

But, yes, he managed to get all this - all these weapons, all these ammunition over the years and that's something that al Qaeda and other groups have been trying to encourage. They've been saying, take advantage of lax gun laws in the United States by international standards, go out and buy a gun, the most powerful weapons you can find and launch as much carnage as you can.

I think also interesting the fact that these pipe bombs, 12 we understand, were recovered -

BALDWIN: Right.

CRUICKSHANK: From his garage. The description of them, sort of a black powder, a gun powder type of powder, is quite similar to what al Qaeda in Yemen, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, put out in June 2010 in "Inspire" magazine, "how to build a bomb in your mom's kitchen." They actually have photos of that kind of device. The FBI say they're investigating whether he learned how to do this from that very same magazine, Brooke.

BALDWIN: That was the exact article we talked about this when we were talking Boston and the Tsarnaev brothers and how they were able to put those pressure cooker bombs together. It is all at your fingertips on the Internet.

Paul Cruickshank, thank you so much, as always, our terrorism analyst here at CNN.

Right now, the bodies, as I mentioned a moment ago, the bodies of some of these victims, they are still inside the scene of that shooting at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino and that is where our Poppy Harlow is not too far from that shooting location.

Poppy, to you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Brooke, it is chilling to be here, to look at the sign of that building that so many people walked in every day just to go to work. They were celebrating the holidays yesterday when all of this happened. It is still, as you said, an active crime scene. Some of those bodies, we're told in the last police press conference, still have not been removed. And this is because those forensic teams are combing through, frankly, the carnage inside. A center that serves people that are developmentally challenged. That is what was attacked and police talking just a short time ago about what they saw inside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE: The suspects, when they entered, fired somewhere between 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene. We did locate the one pipe bomb that was actually three pipe bombs combined into one that had a remote control car type remote control device that appears to have not have worked in this case. There were also four high capacity .223 rifle magazines that were dropped by the suspects and left in there as evidence that have been recovered.

I can confirm that the suspects were wearing the block-style tactical gear that we talked about yesterday. They were not wearing ballistic vests, bullet-proof vests. What they did have and what people may have confused is they had tactical-style vests that held equipment, the magazines and ammunition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: At the end of the massacre, the husband and wife team fired up to 75 rounds killing 14, injuring 21 others. And as they did that, hundreds of other workers heard the echo of gunfire, feared for their lives, feared they may take the next bullet. They barricaded themselves inside rooms in this building right adjacent to where I'm standing. They hid under tables. They sent texts and terrified messages to their loved ones, chilling cell phone video showing the moment that these people were rescued.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of relax. Relax. I'll take a bullet before you do, that's for damn sure. Just be cool, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: As for the people that did not make it out of that building, it has been nearly 24 hours. Still, officials have not released their names. They did tell us, just moments ago, they will start releasing the victim's names a little bit later today. [14:10:03] I want to go straight to our Victor Blackwell. He is at the

second crime scene.

Victor, you are right outside of the suspect's home. That is where I was until very late last night. We saw tons and tons of police vehicles around. But we have learned so much since then about these 12 pipe bombs, about what our law enforcement sources are telling Evan Perez and Pamela Brown was something like a homemade bomb lab in the home?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and we're seeing some of the work now starting to begin outside the home. The FBI has been here throughout the morning. But take a look over my shoulder here. Some of the members of the evidence response team now setting up their canopy and the tables will then be set up where they start to collect, identify, photograph, process some of the evidence that comes outside of this town home. We heard from David Boudich (ph), with the L.A. office, assistant director of the FBI in the L.A. office, that some of the evidence will have to leave this area to be identified and analyzed outside of this area.

But, you're right, that discovery of 12 pipe bombs and materials to make more, in addition to thousands of rounds of ammunition for both the .223 millimeter ammunition, also a nine millimeter as well for the auto - semi-automatic handguns. So there will also be the collection of the digital information. We saw today the regional computer forensics lab workers here collecting information. We know that they potentially collected the laptops and the thumb drives and cell phones to find out if there were people outside of this community, outside of just this family who were part of this attack.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Victor, thank you very much, again, outside of that home that they lived in before they carried out this horrific attack.

Brooke, I'll send it back to you in New York.

BALDWIN: All right, Poppy, thank you, standby, we'll be talking to you momentarily.

Meantime, I'll speak with an eyewitness who was working just across the street right around this time yesterday from that center. Heard the gunshots ringing out 24 hours ago. We'll talk to him. So much more in the next two hours live from San Bernardino. Keep it here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:38] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN AYERS, WITNESS: I want to get to the - the center and I was just walking down and this lady and a couple others heard shots. And I heard from over there, but then I started walking and all of a sudden I got into the chaos and, who knows, it just, boom, boom, boom, boom. And, you know, I'm just right - wow, right in the middle of it. STEPHANIE BALDWIN, SISTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: As soon as the gunfire started, everyone dropped down to the floor and they were underneath desks and she was trying to shield herself with a chair with the man who was next to her. And then all of a sudden she said she just felt it like going through her back and luckily, you know, the shooters weren't in there for too long and they were able to get them out of their quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It became all surreal when we had to lock ourselves in the conference room and not get out until law enforcement said that it was OK to leave the building. I was just in disbelief. I called my kids and said, if something happens to me, there's a shooting here, just be safe. What else can I do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What else can I do? Some of the voices we're hearing now in the 24-hours, in the wake of the shootings in San Bernardino, California.

Today we heard from the police chief yet again that apparently the shooters fired up to some 75 rounds of ammunition. Witnesses nearby could not only hear those shots, but felt their offices shaking.

I want to bring in Glenn Willwerth. Glenn Willwerth was across the street in an adjacent office building when he started hearing some of these shots.

Glen, thank you so much for joining me today.

GLENN WILLWERTH, SHOOTING WITNESS: Sure.

BALDWIN: You know, it was right around this time yesterday. Can you just begin with, how did you know something was wrong?

WILLWERTH: Well, it kind of all - it kind of all played out because my office window actually faces the Inland Regional Center. I was in my office and I had noticed somebody run by my window very quickly. And I didn't know what that was about and I didn't know what to expect, but I raced up to the front door to meet the person because I didn't know what was going on. And as soon as he came in, I saw the - the shear look of panic on his face and he just replied, they're shooting, they're shooting everybody. So I told - I told everybody to lock down the building. I told the guy to stay there, everybody to hunker down.

And I - I grabbed my side arm, I holstered it up and I went out towards where the shooting was coming from. I could - I could immediately hear the shots being fired. So I started heading towards where I heard the shots coming from. I got about halfway there as -

BALDWIN: So you left your building?

WILLWERTH: Yes. Yes, I have a -

BALDWIN: So as you're hearing the shots, you're going toward the shots? WILLWERTH: Yes, that's correct. I've got - you know, I've got

employees that all have families. I have my wife in the building. I wanted to make sure, you know, it didn't travel to - to my location. So I decided to go ahead and set up my own perimeter.

So I - I kind of hunkered down by a water truck that was filling up at a fire hydrant, maybe 50, 60 yards away from where the gunmen were shooting. I could still hear them shooting. So I knew the direction, I knew where they were, but I couldn't see them. There was a lot of trees. There's a lot of foliage there. But I knew that the exact area that they were in, because it was very distinct.

[14:20:05] So I heard about another 10 or 15 shots go off and then it went kind of silent. And I saw a lot of people scattering and leaving the area. But something caught my attention. It was a slow-moving person. But I couldn't really make them out. They were kind of behind the trees and they just - they went and got into a black SUV and started to pull away very slow. Not in a hurry at all. And I immediately thought to myself, whoever just did that is probably in this SUV right now.

So they - they started to head away. I couldn't see inside the vehicle. I didn't know one, two, five. I have no idea what was going on. But I did know it was high powered shots that I was hearing. And all I had was a side arm. So I decided to stay where I was at.

But they did start to drive towards me. And as soon as I saw that they were about 25 yards away from me, I unholstered my gun and I did point at them, which is really irritating to have a gun for over 20 years and never have to do something like that and you get some people that put you in the position to have to live with something like that, that's just ridiculous to me. So -

BALDWIN: Well, OK, so - so hang on -

WILLWERTH: Yes, the gunmen ended up changing direction and they left the area.

BALDWIN: So you're telling me, so you never ended up firing at this - at this vehicle? We do know that both of the suspects ended up leaving in a black SUV and ultimately were killed in a massive shootout with police in a neighborhood. But as you were there, Glenn, did you talk at all then with the people who had been just terrified, who were inside of the building, who we watched yesterday with their hands up trying to seek safety?

WILLWERTH: Yes, I did speak with some while the van - or while the SUV was pulling away from the area. I was telling everybody to get down and hide behind cars and everything. But when it changed direction from coming my - towards me and went away from my building and exited out the rear, I still didn't know exactly what was going on. So I stayed where I was for a couple more minutes, two, three minutes until the police arrived.

And then the first police came in and they immediately started helping some people that were hiding by some - some vehicles and then the second vehicle came racing in and I - I aggressively flagged him down and made sure he came up to me and I gave him a description of the vehicle.

BALDWIN: OK.

WILLWERTH: And told him I didn't know much about who or what was in it, but gave them the direction they left in.

BALDWIN: Well, Glenn, I know you haven't even gone home. You have remained at your workplace with another employee. Si I will let you go, but thank you so much. I don't know if police would love to hear exactly how close you got to all of this yesterday, but, nevertheless, their heroes were pretty incredible on the scene yesterday. And, Glenn, I thank you so much for your perspective. I'm glad you're all right.

WILLWERTH: Sure. Yes, thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we still do not know the answer to the question, why. What was their motivation for this couple to drop off their six-month-old baby to go on that shooting rampage? Coming up next, we'll talk with someone who has seen this type of thing before. He actually wrote a book focusing on mass shooters, their motivations, police training. He will join me next.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:53] BALDWIN: A shooting there in California. Much of it, of course, is about the people, about the victims, and we'll talk a lot about that as soon as we know more about them. But in the meantime, numbers today, learning new numbers. Fourteen killed, 21 injured, two shooters. What we don't know is why. What motivated a man and his wife to drop off their six-month-old baby girl with a grandmother and end the day and their lives in a shootout with police.

Joining me now is Pete Blair (ph). Pete's a criminal justice professor at Texas State University and executive director for the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State.

And, Pete, you wrote the book on active shooter events and response. So thank you so much for joining me today.

PETE BLAIR, CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSOR, TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me on.

BALDWIN: There is so much that baffles me about what happened in San Bernardino, but I think part of the top of the list is the fact that not only - it wasn't just this lone shooter. It was the shooter and it was his wife. It is so rare you have a female involved in this kind of thing. Nevertheless, a young child that they had that they dropped off at a family member's home as they went off on this rampage. That has to surprise you.

BLAIR: Yes, it is unusual. We have had - seen some female active shooters in the past, but it's a very small percentage, less than 5 percent of all the shooters that we've seen. The dropping the kid off at the relative's house, that's - I've never seen that happen before, but it would suggest to me that they felt that they weren't coming back.

BALDWIN: When you hear some of the details from the police chief, San Bernardino, today talking about the thousands of rounds of ammunition they had, the tactical vests, the pipe bombs that were found, the black powder, the hundreds of tools at the home that could be used to build IEDs, the potential radicalization, what sort of picture is that painting for you?

BLAIR: Well, for me, that paints a very premeditated attack. It looks like a terrorist-related event from the radicalization information they're talking about now. While their - people are talking about there may have been some kind of incident at the actual party beforehand. It's clear they were planning some type of event for some period of time in order to have a bomb-making factory and acquired all the equipment they had with them.

[14:30:10] BALDWIN: And still, even though perhaps one of their associates