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Shooting Rampage. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 03, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And they will carry them and endure long after the news cameras are gone.

You know, any shooting is troubling. Obviously, this reopens the pain of what happened at Fort Hood five years ago.

The country has to do some soul-searching about this. This is becoming the norm. And we take it for granted in ways that, as a parent, are terrifying.

I'm confident that the outpouring of unity and strength and fellowship and love across Charleston today indicates the degree to which those old vestiges of hatred can be overcome.

And each time this happens, I'm going to bring this up. Each time this happens, I'm going to say that we can actually do something about it, but we're going to have to change our laws.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on here on CNN. Thank you for being with me on this thought. I'm Brooke Baldwin, hour two of coverage of this murder, murders, that even the FBI is calling not your average investigation.

This depraved husband and wife duo, these killers, drop off their baby, drive to a holiday party and murder 14 people. And now it appears the man behind this bloody massacre may have been radicalized, communicating with terror suspects on the FBI's radar.

What we do know is this; 14 innocent lives were stolen, 14 people whose names we do not yet know and some whose bodies still lie where they were shot and killed, 14 people who just showed up to work, wanted to go to a holiday party with their colleagues and would never, ever go home.

As forensic teams comb through the carnage inside this Inland Regional Center, a center that services the developmentally challenged in this community, police are now telling us these details as far as what they're finding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE CHIEF: The suspects when they entered fired somewhere between 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene.

We did locate the one pipe bomb that was actually combined into one that had a remote-control car type, remote-control device that appears to have not worked in this case. There were also four high-capacity .223 rifle magazines that were dropped by the suspects and left in there as evidence that have been recovered.

I can confirm that the suspects were wearing the black-style tactical gear that we talked about yesterday. They were not wearing ballistic vests, bulletproof vests. What they did have and what people may have confused is they had tactical-style vests that held equipment and magazines and ammunition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: At the end of this mass shooting at this time yesterday, the husband and wife fired up to 75 rounds.

And back at their home where they rented, one thing is becoming increasingly clear. They were planning for something big. Could they have been planning for an addition attack? Police are not yet sure.

They are shocked to find this makeshift bomb lab here, 12 pipe bombs, hundreds of bomb-making tools, thousands of rounds of ammunition.

My colleague Poppy Harlow is standing by for us. She's live adjacent to that Inland Regional Center where the shooting took place.

But, first, I want to bring in my colleague Victor Blackwell, who is at an additional crime scene. This is the suspects' home. Also with us here at the top of the hour, Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative.

Great to have all of you on.

But, Victor, I want you to kick it off with me, because we have been looking at this aerial footage of what looks to me like FBI in the back, perhaps a storage unit, a garage area. Here you go. Can you walk me through what's happening on that property right now?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly.

And in the middle of a quiet neighborhood, all of this is happening. I can tell you, outside, on the -- near the front door, there are the evidence response teams collecting evidence, bringing it outside, processing it under -- I guess you can see a blue canopy here, taking photographs, identifying, numbering.

Some of those things will be processed locally. Some, as we heard from David Bowdich with the L.A. office of the FBI, will have to leave this area for analysis. We know that there have also been computer forensics laboratory workers here collecting thumb drives, cell phones, other electronic information of course to get an answer to the question why did this happen and who else was involved.

But, of course, for the people who live in this community, and I'm sure for people who are hearing this across the country and around the world, the discovery of those 12 pipe bombs inside the home, the hundreds of bomb-making tools, an effective laboratory to crank out these bombs, 2,500 bullets, .223s. You have got even more .9- millimeter bullets here.

[15:05:16]

So, effectively, the question of premeditation or planning is out the window. The question now I think people are waiting to hear an answer to is if these two people were preparing for an opportunity or if they were preparing for this opportunity, as we of course wait to get more information about what they know that went into the planning of the massacre that took place here in San Bernardino yesterday.

BALDWIN: Victor, what about the car out front as well?

BLACKWELL: The car out front, yes, there's a black sedan that's just outside. When we arrived very early this morning, it was about 1:00 a.m. local time, the hood was up, the trunk was up, doors opened, and our crews watched bomb technicians search the vehicle overnight in full tactical gear after finding those 12 pipe bombs, those rudimentary devices inside.

Of course, they searched the vehicle outside. Now, there's been no clarity from law enforcement officials if there was anything found inside the car, but we know that that was searched. Also no confirmation if that car belonged to Farook or Malik. We also know the black SUV that was involved in that shoot-out yesterday was a rental and was actually supposed to be returned yesterday.

So that possibly could add to the conversation of if it was planned for this specific holiday party.

BALDWIN: Victor Blackwell there on the scene of this home, Victor, thank you.

Bob Baer, let me just bring you in. Here's what's also key here. And this is what we're getting. I'm just glancing down at reporting from our justice correspondents Pamela Brown and Evan Perez. Their law enforcement say it appears this male killer was radicalized. Some of the details, apparently, he was in touch with more than one terrorism subject who the FBI was already investigating, according to other law enforcement officials.

A separate U.S. government official said he had overseas communications and associations that they are now obviously really looking into. But when we hear the word, Bob, radicalized, what does that truly mean?

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there are a couple things here. One is the tactics used in the attack. They clearly were trained in some way. This was a military assault. I can go through all -- delaying the police with a fake pipe bomb, an

IED, and the rest of it, and the two guns, and the fact that he brought his wife. You always want to bring two shooters to one of these things. Now it comes out that he's been in Saudi Arabia. That country at the street level is very radicalized, as is Pakistan, and the fact that the metadata that they are digging up after the attack shows that these connections were in place before the attack tells me that this is an about of international terrorism.

I don't -- we may never know what inspired them to shoot at that particular target and what they were going to do next, or what convinced them to turn to bloodshed, but I think it's fairly safe to classify this as international terrorism.

BALDWIN: Now, to the point you say, well, obviously, in these kinds of situations, you want to bring someone else. But to me, when we cover these mass shootings, which continue to happen here in this country, oftentimes, it's one deranged individual. Now that we know that there was this woman involved and that there was an additional bit of premeditation, that they left their six-month-old child with a grandmother, that, to me, really struck me.

BAER: They were determined. They were believers. They were committed to what they were doing.

As faulty as that is, they were committed. And the fact that they were willing to die tells me that they were seeking martyrdom. There's just no other explanation. If you have 20-some police cars chasing and you open up fire on them, you are going to die. They wanted to die.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: They were on no one's radar, Bob.

BAER: There's thousands and thousands of people on FBI radar, but the FBI does not have the authority -- if there's a mere suspicion -- to knock your door down and take a look around. They could never get a warrant.

I talk to the FBI a lot. And everybody who expresses a desire to commit violence is under surveillance of some sort and visited and even warrants. But these people were flying under the radar. And it's very difficult for the FBI with the authorities they have is to roll all these people up. This is not an intelligence failure. It's something entirely different.

BALDWIN: So incredibly troubling. Bob Baer, thank you. Victor Blackwell, thank you.

Poppy Harlow, as we mentioned, let's go to Poppy. She's standing by outside of that Inland Regional Center, a place that helps so many people in these communities here and now still a crime scene, Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. It's sort of surreal, Brooke, to drive by a place that looks like so many other places in America, where you would go to work each and every day, which is what people were doing yesterday when they were so brutally attacked. And not just the first-responders rushed towards this danger and responded. Some average people ran towards the danger to help the victims.

[15:10:15]

I have one of those men with me.

Pastor Sherman Dumas, thank you for being here. Come on in.

SHERMAN DUMAS, PASTOR: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Let's talk about that, right? Take me back to 24 hours ago. Why did you run to help when everyone else ran away?

DUMAS: I love this city. I love San Bernardino, California.

And when we came here six years ago to plan our ministry, we came with a heart to serve our community. It was natural for me to literally when we found out about it in our staff meeting to get into the vehicle and get as close as we could get by car, walk the rest of the way to get right to the scene. And we were part of the first ones that were there after the incident happened to be able to offer prayer and both counsel to those that were there.

HARLOW: Right. But some people, even if they are not physically wounded, just need to know someone like you is there. You saw a lot of horrific things, no doubt, tragedy you will never forget.

But you also saw something incredibly beautiful in a reunion that happened in front of your eyes.

DUMAS: Yes.

HARLOW: Walk me through that.

DUMAS: Yes.

When we were at the corner of Waterman and Orange Show, where everything was happening, we connected with a lady who couldn't find her family member. She hadn't heard where the family member was or what was going on with them. She was still very despondent and frustrated. We prayed with her there.

When they moved us to the Hernandez (ph) Center, where the victims or the survivors met their family members, saw three buses come in, but her family member wasn't in there. So, she began to cry. She was very upset because she wanted to see them, almost felt as if maybe that was to tell her that they didn't survive.

HARLOW: Couldn't get through on the phone.

DUMAS: Right. Right. But the last bus, there she came off. And they hugged. They embraced. They cried.

And to me, it was a great picture to see that reunion come back in the midst of this crazy tragedy.

HARLOW: Absolutely, an image I'm sure you will never forget.

When you look at this city and you look at the congresswoman on last hour told me that in her town, in her Orange County, she's seen an increase in Islamophobia. Are you concerned about that? What's your reaction?

DUMAS: Yes, I'm very concerned about it, because I feel like oftentimes we will begin to drop everyone in the same bucket, because they do have a similar belief system.

Of course, we know not all Muslims are radicalists. And so I think it's important that we all operate in love and in charity to one another and with tolerance. But, of course, at the same time, I hope this is an eye-opening moment for all of us to figure out more strategies to protect ourselves.

HARLOW: How is your community doing?

DUMAS: I think our community is coming back to the top. I think we're receiving the hope and the joy that we need to have even in the midst of this crazy thing that's happened.

HARLOW: We all stand with you. Thank you very much, Pastor, for sharing that...

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: ... moment from such tragedy.

All right, Brooke, send it back to you.

BALDWIN: Incredible. Can you imagine the pastor waiting with that woman, waiting for her family member, bus after bus after bus and finally her loved one is safe?

Poppy, thank you so much. And thanks to the pastor.

Coming up next here on CNN, police are describing this extensive bomb lab at the killers' home. Thousands of rounds of bullets, a house littered with pipe bombs and materials to build bombs that really actually kept police from entering. We will speak live with an explosives expert about what this means for the investigation and how they pulled this off.

Also, we will take you to the hospital where some of the 21 individuals who were injured are being treated at this moment. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:33] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They rushed into my front door seeking shelter saying, they are shooting, they are shooting everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The day after this murderous rampage in San Bernardino, California, and when it comes to the details of this investigation, there are some numbers I want you to hear directly from the San Bernardino police chief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE CHIEF: The suspects are believed to have fired about 76 rifle rounds at the officers at the termination of the pursuit; 76 is our number that we have right now.

However, on them, on their person, on their body and in the vehicle, they had over 1,400 .223-caliber rounds that were available to them. And they had over 200 .9-millimeter rounds on their persons as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: How about that? That is only the beginning.

They left three devices behind at the scene packed with black powder and rigged with a toy car. At the home they were apparently renting, authorities found 12 pipe bombs and hundreds of tools that could be used to build IEDs and pipe bombs.

Let me bring in two weapons and explosives experts.

I have Rick Schwein, former special agent in charge at the FBI's Northern District in Alabama. He led the manhunt for Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph. And Anthony May is with us today. He's a retired ATF explosives enforcement officer and has actually worked with the San Bernardino bomb squad in the past.

So, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today.

And, Anthony, let me just begin with you, and the device that was left at the scene, the three pipe bombs all with this remote control car, as I mentioned, more pipe bombs found at the home, what are you hearing from your sources about what these tools mean, level of sophistication? You tell me.

ANTHONY MAY, FORMER ATF EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: Good afternoon, Brooke.

What I'm hearing about the device that was left at the shooting scene was really a crude, rudimentary device, three metal pipes, small pipes, taped together with a remote-control car using a propellant, hasn't been forensically identified yet, but probably most likely smokeless powder. And the remote-control portion of the car was set up to initiate the

device. Now, it's unclear as to whether they actually tried to initiate and it failed to function or there was a design flaw in the device itself that prevented it from functioning.

[15:20:00]

BALDWIN: Did I also -- just Anthony, staying with you, I was talking to Paul Cruickshank, one of our terrorism analysts, last hour. He was saying to me specifically on the black powder and whatever that was related to, that contraption, it reminded him of an article from al Qaeda's "Inspire' magazine from a couple years ago.

And I know you also pointed out something else reminded you of something from "Inspire," yes?

MAY: That's correct.

The 12th issue of "Inspire" magazine which came out in March of 2014 talked about using toy remote-control vehicles, toy cars, remote- control vehicles from toy cars to initiate devices. They also talked about using these powders, black powders, smokeless powders, to initiate them, and as well as the types of pipes to be used.

And we saw similar types of information coming out that was used in the Boston Marathon bombing from the "Inspire" magazine. So it's most likely or possibly where this individual got his information. Not saying that he's affiliated with AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which is who puts out this "Inspire" magazine, but he probably got the information from there because it's an online source.

BALDWIN: Have to know the FBI is looking into that, although FBI being very clear they haven't concluded if this was workplace violence or terrorism, though we are hearing from our law enforcement sources it appears this male was radicalized.

Rick, to you, and listening to the FBI very closely in the latest news brief, they said they flew in an FBI team to do a reenactment or a reconstruction of the crime scenes and that they are actually going to fly some of the evidence back to a lab in Washington for an expedited analysis.

Can you walk me through how both of those will work?

RICK SCHWEIN, FORMER FBI AGENT: Yes. Sure, Brooke.

They are going to very be painstaking in their analysis of every piece of evidence that comes out of the two crime scenes, the site where the confrontation with police occurred, as well as any place that these folks may have lived.

They are going to bring out forensics teams from Quantico, experts in different fields, explosives, electronics. They are going to -- digital exploitation of the computers and any digital media that these folks may have utilized, and they're going to try to reconstruct everything that these two folks have done going back as far as possible.

A lot of this investigation is also going to take place overseas. There are ties to Pakistan, to Saudi Arabia. So the legal attaches in both of those countries in Islamabad and in Riyadh are going to be incredibly busy working very closely with the intelligence services and the law enforcement agencies in those countries.

And then if there are any other areas that these folks touched on through family and friends in their social network, those leads are going to be pushed out so that the bureau and the rest of law enforcement engaged in this investigation can get a full picture of what led to the horrific events of yesterday.

BALDWIN: Painstaking process, leaving no stone unturned.

Anthony, we have been looking at pictures, and not this SUV. This is where the shoot-out occurred. But here you go. These are aerial photos of what looks like to be like a garage. And this is the suspect's rental home. And so we know that law enforcement, they are on the ground going through cars and this garage.

How careful do law enforcement and FBI need to be here? What are they looking for?

SCHWEIN: Well, they have got to be very careful.

In fact, that occurred last night. My sources were telling me that they took their time entering this house in the middle of the night just to ensure that it's safe so the forensic teams can be back there this morning.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: There it is. It's happening right now. We're looking at it.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWEIN: ... going through the house. Right. Yes. They are going through it right now, but the scene was made safe last night by the bomb technician from San Bernardino County and the other agents that were working there.

And these forensic teams are going through collecting anything and everything they can that's associated with this crime. It's been reported that there's components there to make additional bombs. It has also been reported that there were 12 additional pipe bombs.

Now, I'm not quite sure if that's been verified, but there's a lot of forensic value in this house. And I'm not going to be surprised if the forensic evidence doesn't lead to other people involved in this whole event.

BALDWIN: Police chief mentioned they will be looking at other peoples, and, yes, indeed, he verified those 12 pipe bombs in that home, a treasure trove of evidence and forensics there, as you two well know.

Anthony May and Rick Schwein, thank you.

Coming up next, we have been hearing just harrowing stories about the folks who survived that shooting, 21 in total injured, 14 killed. We will take you live to one of the hospitals which some of them are being treated and get an update on their conditions, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:20]

BALDWIN: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The grim task of identifying the victims of this latest mass shooting is under way in San Bernardino, California. We can tell you that authorities are working to notify the families of those 14 who were killed.

We are expecting those names to be released later today. That's what we heard from the police chief not too long ago. We did learn today as well from the chief that the number of injured grew from 17 to 21.

So, Boris Sanchez is with me. He actually has a photo of the first victim. And we will learn a little bit more about that individual in a moment.

But, Dan Simon, let me just begin with you. You are outside one of the medical centers treating some of these -- those who have been injured. What's an update on those survivors there?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Brooke.

Of the five people brought to this particular hospital, all five are in stable condition.