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NANCY GRACE

San Bernardino Shooting Examined. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired December 3, 2015 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE: A Special hour on the San Bernardino mass shooting.

We are live everyone in San Bernadino where a so called devote U.S.citizen. An American born and raised.

His new Pakistani wife who leave their baby at home with grandma, to go storm his office Christmas party. Loaded down with deadly automatic

weapons. To slaughter, slaughter 14 co-workers dead. Injuring 21 more. Than count rising.

Then a bloody and terrifying police shootout. Number of the wounded is rising. Bombshell now.

Who are these people and why did they seemingly normal Muslim American couple go on a Christmas party massacre.

Gunning down first, a devout Jew.

At this hour police interviewing the family of the suspects.

OFFICER: We are at San Bernardino and Shedden. (Gun shot) San Bernardino and Shedden. (Gun shot) There`s one guy down and one guy in the back of a

car.

OFFICER: Hold your fire.

CNN REPORTER: Armed with AR-15 style rifles and 2 semi-automatic hand guns. Investigators say the shooters came equipped. Dressed in tactical

gear.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Are you ready? If you`re not cool I`m not walking.

CNN REPORTER: Dozens of employees being led to safety by police officers.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: In the office waiting for cops.

GRACE: Can you imagine going to your office Christmas party. Your office Hanukah party. And being then led out by the SWAT team with your hands in

the air. After a Christmas party massacre by 2 radicalized Muslims.

I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell right now. We are live in San Bernardino, where a so called devout U.S. citizen and his new Pakistani wife. Leave baby at home and

storm the Christmas party at Inland Regional Facility. Loaded down with automatic weapons. They wanted to slaughter 14 co-workers starting with a

devout Jew.

A bloody terrifying police shoot-out. The number of the wounded rising and still the question, who are these two? Why did this seemingly normal and

peaceful Muslim couple, go on a Christmas party massacre?

Police interview the family of the suspects right now. Mark Westwood and Tomorrow Permian with us. KABC Perumean, we understand right now police are

in the town home owned by Farook and his Pakistani wife. They have now uncovered a bomb lab.

TOM PERUMEAN: That`s right. These folks have manufactured a dozen pipe bombs. They took three pipe bombs with them when they wanton their shooting

spree. Put them on a radio controlled car and were going to run this radio controlled car into the area where this party was being held. And blow it

up.

These folks have definitely been doing this for some time. Once again, the strange question is, how did they become radicalized?

This man, Mr. Farook, he had a $70,000 a year job as the health inspector for San Bernardino country. He was a government employee. With all the

government employee benefits and a pretty good sized paycheck.

How did he become radicalized and want to now kill his co-workers?

GRACE: Dan Lorimor team leader with the Summerset County SWAT team, (video stutters) AR-15 clips and similar ballistics used at the shootout, at the

Christmas party massacre.

Dan, in a nutshell and in lay terms. What is a pipe bomb?

DAN LORIMOR: Nancy, a pipe bomb is just explosive material. Both ends are capped. You go to any hardware store and design one. Then all you need is

some sort of ignition device. Whether it`s electronic or using a flame. It`s real simple.

GRACE: When you say explosive material what do you put in the pipe? What type of explosive material would you put in the pipe before you cap it?

LORIMOR: I`m not going to teach your viewers how to make bombs Nancy. But, I will tell you that it`s easily, readily available material. It`s

household materials you can make a bomb out of. We could probably open up a couple of your producers purses and fashion one.

GRACE: You`re right, you`re right. You know Dan, I`m prosecuted so many. For instance a molotov cocktail. Where you just pour gasoline in a

container, light it and show it.

There`s a million ways to make a pipe bomb, you`re absolutely right.

These two, we have now uncovered, we are learning police uncover a bomb lab and ammo in the home.

Earlier, Mark Westwood, KCAA. Also joining us, Tom PERUMEAN KABC. Mark Westwood, you were describing a neighbor, who says there`s been a lot of

unusual activity at Farook and his Pakistani wife`s home. What behavior?

MARK WESTWOOD: Up late night working in the garage. The last few nights in San Bernardino it was very very cold. I noted - - I live near by, by the

way, very close to that area.

It was about 41 degrees outside two nights ago. If they`re working in the garage they were freezing. Why were they working in the garage so late?

Unusual activity. A neighbor next door to condo 53 there on Pine Avenue. Stated that fact, that it was unusual for them to be out in the garage

working, there`s no heaters out there.

GRACE: You know, Mark Westwood, the neighbor you`re talking about has also stated she was afraid to call the police because she didn`t want people to

think

(Video Skips)

WESTWARD: People are acting strange. They`re acting out. When you`re in a crowd make sure you have a plan to get out of the crowd. That you know

where the exits are. That you can think, what if something starts going on here, where am I going to go? Where am I going to back hike ever.

These are very important things for people to learn these days.

GRACE: I`m being joined right now by David Denellski. Reporter with the press enterprise. On the scene during the shoot-out.

Also, with me news director KCAA is Dye Rice. Jim Maxwell, we understand that police at this moment are uncovering a bomb lab and ammo. What do you

make of that?

JIM MAXWELL: It`s sounds like he had other targets in mind. He was preparing that much, that much preparation doesn`t go for just one

location. What the focus of this investigation is trying to determine what the other targets were. What his intentions were. Cause he was building

more bombs than he left at the original scene.(AUDIO GAP)

GRACE: The trade center was attacked. And Paris, you have the theater you have the restaurant. Always seems to be in multiples.

It seems to be a common thing, and we`re seeing it right here with the amount of bombs and ballistics they had already made.

MAXWELL: There`s a long history. If you go back to the attacks in Mumbai, multiple locations. The attacks on the hotels in Amman, Jordan, 2005. They

were all multiple locations that were simultaneously done.

This tactic is nothing new.

GRACE: Pat LaLamaManaging editor, Crime Watch Daily.

It`s amazing to me, the neighbors, some of the neighbors observed what they say was suspicious activity. Groups of people coming in and out at late

hours working on things in the garage. Fahrook`s town home that he shared with his wife from overseas. That they were getting lots and lots of

deliveries. Boxes piled up.

She was afraid to report it because they were Muslim, according to her Pat.

PAT LALAMA, EDITOR CRIME WATCH DAILY: There`s the P.C. police hard at work and I`ll just say it. It`s ridiculous that this woman didn`t feel that she

could see something and say something.

Let me tell you something Nancy. I know because I deal with San Bernardino authorities all the time. What`s on their mind right now is how far do

those tentacles reach?

It wasn`t, in my mind, conceivable that it`s just this couple. There`s an extended family. There`s friends. We now know about the international

communications.

I think what San Bernardino police, sheriffs and the FBI, want to know right now is how big a hotbed this could potentially be?

I was just with them last month. Talking about what a great, safe, enclave this is. People trying to escape L.A. traffic and financial burden. Now

look what happens.

GRACE: Justin Freiman going me. Do you have update? The police search is going on right now. For those of you just joining us

A Christmas party turns into a massacre with a radicalized Muslim couple unleash a hail of bullets. Now, an arsenal is being found in their town

home as police very carefully go through that.

At this hour the FBI working around the clock to establish who, if any, terrorist communications this couple had.

Justin, what do we know about the police going on in the condo right now? The town home?

JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, we know the townhome right now is still being searched. They`ve already told us that they`ve gone in

that garage and they`ve gotten out 12 pipe bombs, a variety of other bomb making materials including tools. Thousands of rounds of ammunition.

Thousands.

GRACE: Everyone, Joseph Scott Morgan joining us now. Certified Investigator of Forensics at Jacksonville State University.

Joseph Scott Morgan, it`s not unusual for you or I to talk about bodies of victims still being on the crime scene. With a crime of this magnitude it

takes a long time. 36-48 hours to process. I`m talking about measurements from the wall of the bullet. From the body to the bullet. Where each body

is. Where we think the shooters came through. What can we learn from the exact positions of the bodies?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: One of the things that we have to keep in mind Nancy, is that a case like this. You have got so

much carnage. You got multi-layers here.

You have to take into consideration the movement of the shooters as they moved about the room shooting people. The movements of the victims.

Contrary to what people might think out there, people that are shot, do not instantaneously die. It`s a very dynamic scene. You`ve got blood splatter

considerations. Orientations to exits. Places to enter. Did people attempt to hide?

This is going to go to a larger narrative Nancy. When this case could potentially come to trial, the court try - - Or the prosecution tries to

paint a picture of what kind of pain and suffering that these people went through at the hands of these terrorists.

You have to be very very careful at the scene and take the time.

GRACE: You know Bethany Marshall, Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyses and author of Deal Breakers.

Dr. Bethany, for some reason people don`t want to attach the word Christmas party, Hanukah or the first victim is a devout Jew. No one wants to talk

about the fact that this was a radicalized Muslim couple. I have Saba Ahmed on with me. The president and founder of the republican Muslim coalition.

Who will tell you that this is completely anti the Muslim religion.

Why is it so taboo to state the truth about what`s happening?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think Pat Lalama said it best just now. He said we`re all afraid of the P.C. police. This is the reason the child

abuse is vastly under-reported.

Like the neighbor, people are afraid that they misheard, they mis-saw. They`re going to get a child in trouble. They`re going to get a parent in

trouble and they don`t trust their own instincts.

Nancy, this wasn`t part religiously motivated. I`m sorry, every religious group has extremists. Every religious group has at least some small faction

that`s full of hatred.

If we take away words like religion, terrorism, extremisms, radicalization, what you really do have are two young people that are full of hate.

Pathological, possibly anti-social. We know this young man had a love of guns and a target practice. He wanted to have power over other people.

GRACE: You know what I think though Bethany. The day - - I mean we all remember the atrocities in the World War. Where everyone stood back and it

happened.

Millions of Jews were killed. No one wanted to accept what was happening. We cannot turn away for what this is. We have to face it head on.

With me right now, CNN correspondent Paul Vercammen. Right there in San Bernardino. Paul, thank you so much for being with us.

I understand that police are going through the town home belonging to Farook and his wife right now. What is the latest Paul?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, what they`re trying to find, of course, anything that might be an indication of who he was talking to and

what their connections are to International terror.

They have said that apparently he was radicalized. That they do believe he was in contact with - - They don`t know how high level these suspected

terrorist were. But, he was making contact with them.

Not only do they want to disable this time bomb, if you will, of a town house. That has so many bomb making materials in it. They are also going to

go in there, they were going to try and grab anything on his hard drive, of course, would be critical evidence.

They`re going to pour over what`s there at that town home. Not far from me is the center - - County office buildings where he worked. They`re also

going into, with their search warrants, his office space. Hoping that they will find something in there, that will lead to them, how he got

radicalized. Who else he was talking to and if anybody aided or abended his efforts here in San Bernardino, with his wife. To carry out this

unfathomable massacre, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what I think though Bethany. The day - - I mean we all remember the atrocities in the World War. Where everyone stood back and it

happened.

Millions of Jews were killed. No one wanted to accept what was happening. We cannot turn away for what this is. We have to face it head on.

With me right now, CNN correspondent Paul Vercammen. Right there in San Bernardino. Paul, thank you so much for being with us.

I understand that police are going through the town home belonging to Farook and his wife right now. What is the latest Paul?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, what they`re trying to find, of course, anything that might be an indication of who he was talking to and

what their connections are to International terror.

They have said that apparently he was radicalized. That they do believe he was in contact with - - They don`t know how high level these suspected

terrorist were. But, he was making contact with them.

Not only do they want to disable this time bomb, if you will, of a town house. That has so many bomb making materials in it. They are also going to

go in there, they were going to try and grab anything on his hard drive, of course, would be critical evidence.

They`re going to pour over what`s there at that town home. Not far from me is the center - - County office buildings where he worked. They`re also

going into, with their search warrants, his office space. Hoping that they will find something in there, that will lead to them, how he got

radicalized. Who else he was talking to and if anybody aided or abended his efforts here in San Bernardino, with his wife. To carry out this

unfathomable massacre, Nancy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKOWN SPEAKER: What`s your exact location?

UNKOWN SPEAKER: We are at San Bernardino and Shedden. San Bernardino and Shedden. I see one guy down and there`s one guy in the back of a car.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Hold your fire.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Hold your fire.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Just for the update, we have the suspect vehicle stopped. We`re going to go ahead and extract him. We just stand by wait for the

bearcat.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Copy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKOWN SPEAKER: I don`t need any more people here unless it`s a SWAT team. That`s it.

CNN REPORTER: Two shooters in San Bernardino`s mass shooting identified. This was the frightening scene inside.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Try to relax, try to relax. I`ll take a bullet before you do, that`s for damn sure.

CNN REPORTER: Family member receive gut wrenching messages from loved ones that active shooting was taking place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you even imagine. Your husband or your wife goes off to their office Christmas party. The next thing you know your finding out this is

what`s going on? There is a massacre at the Christmas party. Where a co- worker, Farook, comes blasting in there with his wife in full black tactical gear. And open fire.

Believe you me. This is not over some ridiculous office party argument. They were armed to the hilt.

So far they have taken out bombs, pipe bombs, ammo, you name it. This has been in the works for a long time.

Neighbors now saying that they observed groups of people in the Farook townhome garage. Working late into the night. Tons and tons of deliveries

in boxes. All sorts of comings and goings throughout the day and night.

Farook, an American. An American. A brother of ours. This is our brother. Farook. A Muslim American who becomes radicalized. Brings home a Pakistani

wife and now this. A toy car rigged with pipe bombs.

This wasn`t over some office argument.

With me, joining me. Let me go to you, Joesph Frieman. I`m understanding the police are still in the townhome right now. What are they finding?

FRiEMAN: Right Nancy, they are. They finding plans that they had for something really big, this couple. Not only was there ammunition, 12 pipe

bombs, bomb making material, thousands of rounds of ammunition down there.

There was also taken from there, we now know, computers and thumb drives.

GRACE: The thumb drives, so so important because that may reveal the terrorists these two were allegedly in touch with.

We are joined right now by a reporter with the press enterprise, David Danelski. On the scene witnessing the shootout with Farook and his wife`s

rented SUV.

David, thank you so much for being with us. David, take me, and our viewers, through that with the SUV. What happened?

DAVID DANELSKI, REPORTER, THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE: I`m just trying to tell you what I saw. I actually got more contact today with more information

from the police.

I was working the story like a lot of reporters. I got a tip. I was over at a community center and I got a tip from a woman on the street.

She said a friend of hers was in lockdown in a far different part of the city. Because there was a sighting of this SUV. I had a location, so I was

going to check that out. I`m driving to that location and I see a couple police cars with lights blazing, driving really fast. I turn onto San

Bernardino avenue, which is going into the north side of town. Into Redlands.

I follow them and quite frankly I wasn`t really expecting much. The next thing you know I`m behind these police officers.

I notice there`s more police officers behind me and then I`m hearing a combination of whizzing sounds through the air. And a thunder of multiple

shots happen at the same time.

This is while my vehicle is moving. This is a complete surprise to me. I pull over, park the car, get out my camera.

I start walking. I could see police are, not a lot of them, a couple police, two or three, four maybe. It`s hard to tell.

Police cars are in the middle of the street. They are taking cover. Then I hear another round.

GRACE: How were they taking cover David?

(AUDIO GAP)

GRACE: With me David Danelski of the Press-Enterprise who witnesses the shootout of the couple`s SUV. How (inaudible) taking cover?

DANELSKI: What - - Then - - Meanwhile all these other police officers are - - the street becomes (inaudible) police cars because there stopping,

they`re getting out with their guns.

Police are stripes. Different agencies. Riverside - - excuse me not - - San Bernardino. Colton, CHP, Sheriff`s deputies. They`re all coming out with

their guns. Most of them are behind me and they`re running to the scene.

Another volley of shots. Everyone get down.

GRACE: That must`ve taken some backbone, to be out in the open, running. You know this SUV - -

DANELSKI: People are running - -

GRACE: Loaded down guns, and the - -

DANELSKI: Yells at me to. I take cover behind the car. Then there`s another lull. I crawl between police cars. Hear another volley. You`re

hearing the gunshots as well as the whizzing of bullets. They`re literally going right by.

I finally get across the street. I kind of get away from the shooting. I have a camera. I am taking pictures as I`m doing this. I get to a block

wall and it`s only about two feet high. Cause the way the wall was built, a combination of a wrought iron fence.

I just lie on my belly and kind of wait for it to calm down. I did hear - - I did see some police kind of acting in terms of, a bit of celebration at

one point. I don`t know whether - - what that was about. It might have been that they had neutralized the suspects at that point.

I can never actually see where the shootings coming from, from my angle. Keep in mind - - It`s very scary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKOWN SPEAKER: They rushed into my front door seeking shelter. Saying they`re shooting, they`re shooting everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you imagine going to your office Christmas party and this happening. Or worse, your spouse leaving for an ordinary day at work and

finding out that they are involved. They are a witness or a victim of this.

The injured list is rising. We know the number of death. Those bodies, some of them still on the floor.

This evening processed by crime scene techs right now. Who are these people? Who is this couple?

An American born Muslim, Farook. Goes to Pakistan, brings home a wife. They clearly become radicalized. The very first victim is a devout messianic

Jew. He is a first victim. We have a photo of him wearing his prayer shawl. Wearing his Yakima. There as you see on his collar, the American flag. A

messianic Jew is one that believes in Yahuwah. Second coming has already occurred, they believe in Christ.

He is the first shooting victim.

With me right now, special guest, Glenn Willwerth, who witnessed the shooting. Glen, thank you for being with us.

GLENN WILLWERTH, WITNESSED SHOOTING: Yes, sure, no problem.

GRACE: All of us are trying to grapple with exactly what happened and why? What did you see?

WILLWERTH: What I saw basically just all let up because somebody rushing into my place looking for shelter. I didn`t know that`s what was going on.

I just know somebody rushed in and I quickly rushed out there to meet the person coming to my door. Because I didn`t know what to expect.

Soon as he came in explained what was going on, I see the terror in his face. I knew that it was not good. He was terrified and they`re shooting

everybody. I know it`s not popular to say. I did lock down my building, I strapped on my side arm. Holstered up. Went outside towards where the

shooting was coming from.

I could immediately hear several shots going off. I went about maybe half way between where the shots were coming from and my building where the

employees and my family was locked in place.

I just wanted to make sure there`s at least a barrier between the evil that was going on. Making sure it didn`t trickle over to any of my loved ones.

GRACE: Glenn Willworth you know what`s going on, but you lock down, put on your gun and go out to meet whatever danger there is. To protect your

family and empoloyees. You know how much bravery that took.

When the guy comes through your doors, what exactly did he tell you was happening?

WILLWORTH: I could see on his face right away that it was not - - it was, it was sheer terror that he had on his face. All he said was they`re

shooting, they`re shooting everybody.

I didn`t know, I didn`t know. There was no description of what was going on. How many there was. All I know is there was shooting.

As soon as I stepped outside, locked - - told them to lock the doors. I can hear the gunshots going off. Several, several, dozens of gunshots.going

off.

(AUDIO GAP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UKNOWN SPEAKER: What`s your exact location?

OFFICER: We are at San Bernardino and Shedden. (Gunshot) San Bernardino and Shedden. (Gunshot) There`s one guy down and one guy in the back of a

car.

OFFICER: Hold your fire.

OFFICER: Just for an update, we have the suspect vehicle stopped. WE`re going to go ahead and extract him. Standby, wait for the bearcat.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: Copy

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This took place the southernmost building on the property. The doors that they entered were located on the east side. They

entered from that parking lot into those east doors. Which went directly into the room where the shooting took place. They sprayed the room with

bullets.

I don`t know that there was any one person they targeted. They killed 14 people though.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We will be joined right now on the scene by CNN correspondent Paul VerCammen. Paul, what can you tell me about the anxiety, the torture that

the families went through as they waited for such a long time to find out if their family member was one of the dead.

VERCAMMEN: It was absolutely heartbreaking to see. Not far from where I`m standing. You had rows of relatives lining up and getting on their

cellphones. Looking over this way at the center and hoping as you said, that it wasn`t their relative that was killed.

Off camera I had a conversation with a young man. He was absolutely beside himself. He kept picking up his phone and calling his sister, hoping she

would answer.

At one point he threatened to go running through the barricade. Past the police tape.

I told him, I said, don`t forget in a hostage situation, the last thing you want is your sister to answer the phone. As you know, people who have been

taken hostage. Or who might be in an active shooter situation. Are told, do not have your phone on. You don`t want that ring or the buzz of the text to

be the very thing that attracts that shooter to you as you`re in a hiding place.

We saw that play out with them. Also, I should note, there were a lot of federal agents around here. They were so concerned about our suspects,

because they knew, they thought, they had all sorts of rudimentary bomb making equipment, and they were right.

Not only by the arsenal that you saw at there house there in Redlands, but also inside the center. Rudimentary bomb making materials. Somehow

gunpowder. They were going to use a remote controlled car and the remote control later found in the SUV.

That`s what caused this absolutely nail biting, high anxiety that pervade at San Bernardino. Until finally the people heard that the two suspects had

been killed in that dramatic shootout Nancy.

GRACE: Paul Vercammen I understand that Farook, along with his Pakistani wife, who are the shooters. Apparently were radicalized and were in touch

with specific subject that are being investigated by the FBI for international terrorism.

It`s amazing to me that - - if that is true, if that is confirmed. Why the government did not have an eye on him. If you`re in touch with a suspected

terrorist that the FBI is already investigating and you are communicating with them.

It seems to me that you become somewhat of a conspirator.

VERCAMMEN: That`s why this next step of scrubbing all of his hard drives, phones, laptops, anything in his office is so important. They`re going to

try and determine how much he was tied, if at all, to any international terrorist.

They have said, by the way, we reported that he did radicalize. But how much, and by who these people were. They can only hope that these computers

will turn up a treasure trove of information on any other suspected terrorist. And help to foil any plots that might be in the making Nancy.

GRACE: We can only pray to that. In one moment I`m going to Bin Levitan on how we can use there thumb - - their thumbnail, their thumb drives. All of

their computers. Every device they have to possibly locate other terrorists.

My question to Saba Ahmed. President, founder Republican Muslim Coalition. How does one become radicalized? A radicalized Muslim. What they did is

completely opposite of everything that you stand for.

How do you become radicalized? I know they go back to the mid-east for the hajah. I know they make the trip to Mecca. I know there are trips back and

fourth to the mid-east. How does and American, born and bred, beomce this?

SABA AHMED, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN MUSLIM COALITION: Nancy, that`s all what he went through, or whatever his state of mind was.

Apparently he had a radicalized wife who he brought from overseas. He was in contact with radicals overseas.

When - - I`ve seen real anti-American sentiments in Pakistan and the Middle-East. I don`t know what exactly was the motive for him or his wife

to hate people so much that they would go down to killing innocent human beings.

He personally had no right. He can`t just declare the jihad. He is misusing the ideology of Islam to commit crimes.

The way you become radicalized is like the way anyone goes insane. You`re just misusing teaching to take out crime and you`re justifying it through

religion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Car two, right now we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car. Or well we don`t know, hold on.

And then from what we understand one is on the run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, a special hour on the San Bernardino Christmas party massacre. Apparently a Muslim couple radicalized, opens fire at the

Christmas party.

The first shooting murder victim is a messianic Jew

Bin Lavitan, a telecommunications expert. Much has been said about - - With terrorists on the dark web. What is the dark web? Whatever it is, can we

trace it just like emails, texts that everyone uses?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNCATIONS EXPERT: Nancy, all the law enforcement needs here is one digital threat to pull a lot. We see this every day. They

get one email, one website and they can almost get a web of everybody who`s involved.

To answer your question. What is the dark web?

This billions of websites out there, Nancy. The only way to find them is with a search engine. What people do, who don`t want to be found. They set

up websites on servesr. Basically keep them from being indexed by google and yahoo.

If you can`t find them - - if the search engines can`t find them, you can`t find tham. That`s how - - there`s a whole sub culture out there that

operates in these little secret websites. They can communicate freely and it makes it really tough for law enforcement Nancy.

GRACE: (inaudible) Gary Casimir, New York. Troy Slaten we know that all the weapons used were legally obtained. But, all the weapons used did not

belong to these two. Whoever owned the other weapons, are they in trouble, are they looking at trouble?

GARY CASIMIR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think they can - -

TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY<: They could be in trouble Nancy. If they used, if they used straw purchasing. Meaning if somebody bought the weapon

intending to give it to somebody else to be used. That`s a crime.

Anyone that bought the weapon then just gave it to them. That person could be facing a lot of trouble.

CASIMIR: If they knew anything about the planning on top of that. The aiding and abetting part here. If they knew anything on top of that, that

also puts a lot - - Puts domestic terrorism charges on them as well.

There`s a lot of investigation that`s going to go on. Determining how these purchases got to the two. How is it that these straw purchases took place?

GRACE: You know Jim Maxwell, according to the neighbor. Jim Maxwell, former FBI special agent, bomb tech. Knows what he`s talking about. Jim

Maxwell. According to the neighbor, people have been in their town home garage, late hours in the night. Bringing packages.

Clearly they were working on this. They are not having a tea party at 11 o`clock in their town home garage. Ok.

JIM MAXWELL, FMR FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Exactly, we go back to the term that`s been passed around by government agencies. If you see something, say

something. It`s extremely important.

Political correctness has to be put aside here. There are too many innocent people dying on the altar of political correctness. This is a graphic

example of it.

The devices that were located. I have to, if you`ll indulge me here, I`ll have to say this. The officers who engage these guys out on the street

yesterday are heroes.

There`s another set of heroes out there, that get little or no recognition. The bomb technician who are handling these devices right now. They`re doing

assessments. They`re approaching these devices. They`re using the right amount of diagnostics and they`re doing an outstanding job of rendering

these devices safe.

It should be mentioned.

GRACE: I`m mentioning it right now. The policeman running down the street at this SUV. The policeman on the scene. And the people processing that

townhome right now are taking their lives in their own hands to protect all of us.

You`re right. You`re right Jim Maxwell.

Dr. Lee Norman, Chief medical examiner, University of Kansas hospital. Dr. Norman, I know it seems almost sacrilegious that bodies are still on the

scene. But, investigatively what can we learn from those bodies and their placement?

LEE NORMAN M.D., CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: The forensic people will help a lot with that. The angles that are talked about, the penetration by the

bullets.

Essentially in a crime like this there`s two different kinds of injuries. There`s assault rifle bullets, then there`s explosive devices.

I think we can just be thankful that those pipe bombs didn`t go off. It would have been a whole different ballgame.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Mark Westwood, KCAA joining us. Mark Westwood, at this moment police are now sifting through the townhome Farook shared with his

Pakistani wife. I`m wondering what else they`re finding in addition to a bomb lab and ammo.

I`m wondering if they can find evidence of the couples Muslim radicalization? If they can connect to other terrorists by evidence they`re

finding in the town home?

WESTWOOD: I`m sure they will be able to. As good as people think they are, they`re just not smarter than the forensic experts of the law enforcement

around here.

They`re going to find flash drives, hard drives. Even if they`ve been exploded they can put them back together. It`s amazing what they can do

with technology these days.

I hope they find it. I hope it leads to no more. That it was only those two, maybe three people and they`ve been apprehended. And we`re safe here

in my hometown where I grew up. In San Bernardino.

GRACE: I pray, I pray for the same thing Mark Westwood.

Pat Lalama, managing editor crime watch daily. It`s not over. All those people that were going in and out of Farook`s home. All those people that

they were in the garage. Possibly helping build those pipe bombs and preparing for this attack.

LALAMA: You know what - -

GRACE: We`re going to hunt them down.

LALAMA: I want to say one thing. I heard an audio coming here of a police officer leading people out of that facility. He was saying to them. Don`t

worry just (inaudible) I`ll take the bullet. Kudos to that officer and all of them.

GRACE: For those of us joining us right now. As we cover the San Bernardino Christmas party massacre. Please join us in our prayers for the

victims, for their families that are suffering. For those families that are still waiting for their loved ones bodies to be removed from this crime

scene.

As we enter the season of Christmas and Hanukah. Please send your prayers up for these people. We remember American hero Pennsylvania officer Lloyd

Reed, Jr. 54. Killed in the line of duty. 25 years of service, St. Clair township. Loved Nascar The Steelers. His widow, Rose Marie. Lloyd Reed Jr.

American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially for you. For joining us. Nancy Grace signing off. See you tonight. 8 o`clock sharp eastern. Not till then.

Goodbye friend.

END