Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

San Bernardino Shooter Radicalized?; Remembering the Shooting Victims; Friend of Victim's Wife Speaking Out. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:31] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello, reporting live from San Bernardino, California. Thank you so much for joining me.

Investigators are not willing to call it terrorism but new developments in Southern California raised chilling new questions about what drove a California couple to mass murder. Law enforcement sources tell us Syed Rizwan Farook appears to have been radicalized. What's more, he was in touched with more than one terrorism subject the FBI was investigating.

And they may have been trying to cover their tracks, this couple. Inside their home police find a computer with its hard drive missing and two smashed cell phones are found near one of the crime scenes. Also inside the home thousands of rounds of ammunitions and a dozen bombs and materials to make even more explosives. The photos obtained by CBS News also show the remote-controlled car and unexploded bombs found at the site of the massacre.

The attorney for Farook's family, though, downplays any thought of terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID S. CHESLEY, FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: I don't think that this is a lot of munitions first of all. I think it was -- I think it was just an average amount. But I think that everyone knows that he just did this for target practice and there was no plan here. There's been no evidence of any plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. We'll hear much more from that attorney later on in the NEWSROOM. But first the investigation.

Victor Blackwell is in Redlands, California, outside the couple's home, and Jim Sciutto` is in our chief national security correspondent. He's in Washington.

But, Victor, I want to start with you. What did you find out?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, good morning. By removing the hard drive from that laptop and smashing those cell phones, which investigators describe as fairly new, were Rizwan Farook and his wife trying to hide their recent communications, hide contacts? The law enforcement officials here are certainly suspicious and they've now issued subpoenas to e-mail providers, other service providers to try to retrieve that information.

We also know that other electronics have been recovered and those are being analyzed as well. And now as it relates to a manifesto, which is often found in mass shootings or after mass shootings, we know that -- what has been found here at the home nor online, but it still has been just a few days since this massacre at the IRC. We also know the FBI is working to interview family members, Farook's relatives to ask them, of course, what they knew. They are cooperating, we're told.

Listen now to what Farook's sister told CBS News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA KHAN, SISTER: I can never imagine my brother or my sister-in-law doing something like this. Especially because they were happily married, they have a beautiful a 6-month-old daughter. It's just mind boggling why they would do something like this.

So many things I ask myself. I asked myself if I had called that morning or the night before, asked him how he was doing, what he was up to. If I had any inclination maybe I could have stopped it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They found thousands of rounds of ammunition in his garage.

FARHAN KHAN, BROTHER-IN-LAW: Even I was surprised.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think your brother deserves to be forgiven?

S. KHAN: That's a hard question. I don't even know if I would forgive him just because of what he did.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Farhan, can you forgive your brother-in-law?

F. KHAN: Not right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: We're hearing similar shock from other family members, also here in the community, from two people -- especially about two people, I should say, who were not on law enforcement's radar -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Jim Sciutto, there's -- well, there are plenty of rumors going around that it really was Farook's wife that radicalized him. But is there any evidence of that?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They don't have any hard evidence. They're taking this very carefully as they piece together each of the signs. What they have now is clear evidence that Farook was in touch with known terrorism subjects. What does that mean? We're not talking about necessarily ISIS leaders or al Qaeda leaders, recruiters, et cetera, but with people on jihadi forums, et cetera. Known to the FBI who communicated about this kind of thing. So by itself not damning but that kind of contact has been observed as a path to radicalization and a path sometimes to terrorism in the past.

So those communications key, that's one. Two, their travel. Traveled to Saudi Arabia. We now know, I've spoken to U.S. and Saudi officials, did Farook went to Saudi Arabia in July of 2014. U.S. officials have told us there's a separate trip in 2013. That's believed to be the trip where he met his wife and then they came back together. She came on a fiancee visa, as it's called, a k1, and then later got a green card.

[10:05:10] They look at that travel, they look at that communication to see if there was some place along the way where radicalization or contact may have taken place. The wife is certainly someone they are looking at right now as an influence, but they have not determined yet if she or he or the two of them together, assuming they definitively determined that this was terrorism, that she or he, who was kind of the leader in taking the radical path.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe that he was radicalized?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. By the wife. I think he married a terrorist.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He married a terrorist?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That's the view there of course of one of his coworkers who made that judgment, but it's not a conclusion that investigators have come to yet -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So why don't we know more about the wife? We've not even seen a picture of her.

SCIUTTO: Well, suffice to say, I'm sure investigators have a picture of her now. The thing is, a lot of this is part of the investigation so it's not public. I wouldn't be surprised if we see one soon. I mean, we have details about her nationality, about when they were married, about the child, et cetera, but you know, this is a profile that they're building right now of her. And as they do that, they're looking at everything. They're looking at social media postings, they're looking at communications, they're looking at foreign travel for both her and her husband.

COSTELLO: All right. Jim Sciutto, Victor Blackwell, thanks to both of you.

Also this morning, new details emerging about the 14 people killed. Victims like Michael Wetzel. He was the father of six. His wife describes him as the most amazing person she knew. And there's Daniel Kaufman who worked at the coffee shop the site of the shooting. His boyfriend called him one of those guys that everybody loved. And Yvette Velasco who's known for being intelligent and motivated and caring. She leaves behind her parents and three sisters.

CNN's Boris Sanchez live in New York with more on the victims. Good morning.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. There are 14 lives lost but really it's hard to quantify, it's hard to imagine the effect of the people associated with them. Their families and how they're feeling.

One of the victims is 40-year-old Robert Adams. He's actually a new father. He married his high school sweetheart summer and they had a daughter, Samantha, who's just 20 months old. His family said in a statement Robert always wanted to be a father and cherished every moment with her. They're actually planning their first trip to Disneyland for next week with his daughter, Samantha.

Another victim is Bennetta Betbadal, she's 46, a mother of three. She actually moved to America from Iran to avoid religious persecution. Her husband spoke to Anderson Cooper last night. He said that everything she touched bloomed. She went above and beyond. Here's what his daughter told Anderson Cooper last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOLENE BETBADAL, DAUGHTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: She used to tell me, like, that if, like, I do go, I want you to, like -- I want everybody, like, to stay strong. I don't want you guys, like, grieving or like crying. That's like when I'm taken into a place, and like, just going off that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Another one of the victims is 53-year-old Nicholas Thalasinos. He was actually the first victim that we were able to confirm was killed in the shooting. There was an interesting now. He's someone who was very religious and very passionate about his Jewish beliefs, and we actually spoke to a friend who says that he had a heated, passionate conversation about politics and religion with the gunman just days before the shooting. She said the talk was calm and collected but obviously in retrospect now a lot of questions about that conversation, whether or not potentially Nicholas may have been a target.

Again, those are just three of 14 victims. Many families affected by this terrible incident -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Boris Sanchez reporting live from New York. Thanks so much.

And of course as I said, we are learning more this morning about all of the victims, including 37-year-old Michael Wetzel. He was married, he was a father of six children. According to the "L.A. Times," he worked as a supervising environmental health specialist. With me on the phone is Celia Behar. She is a friend of Michael

Wetzel's wife and has also launched a fundraising page for his family.

Thank you so much for talking with me this morning, Celia.

CELIA BEHAR, FRIEND OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Thank you for having me, Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, first of all, how is -- how is Michael's wife doing?

BEHAR: She's holding up. She's really strong and she's doing the best job that she can for the kids. They are definitely her main focus right now and she's spending all her time and energy time taking care of them.

COSTELLO: How did she find out that Michael was a victim?

[10:10:01] BEHAR: It took her a long time to find out, actually. She went at my mom, (INAUDIBLE), and she posted to us at about 1:00 that she knew he had been there where the shooting was. And she didn't find out until 10:00, she actually -- about 10:00 I think. She went down to the scene and had to just keep waiting and asking questions. And from what I was told, she -- they kept, you know, they're getting people out and bringing out survivors. And when the last group of survivors came and he wasn't in it, they told her that if he wasn't in there, then he was gone.

COSTELLO: Does she know exactly what happened?

BEHAR: She doesn't yet know. There's conflicting details. So she's still putting pieces together.

COSTELLO: I know that you're helping the family. What kind of help do they need?

BEHAR: I mean, right now, you know, I think that -- first of all, she's so overwhelmed and grateful for the support that the whole family is getting. But, you know, it's a big family. And it's a mixed family. So I think financially is the best route to go. Both, you know, both her and Michael's first wife are going to have a huge task of raising these kids and making sure that they are provided for. So, you know, obviously there's nothing any of us can do to relieve any of the pain and grief that that family is feeling, but, you know, the financial stress, I think, is going to be something if we can take away at all, that's going to be really helpful.

COSTELLO: What would -- what would she want us to know about Michael?

BEHAR: You know, she and I were talking yesterday and she just said, you know, that he's her soul mate and that he was just the best father. But -- and actually I was talking to his best friend who said the same thing. He was just so great with the kids and an amazing father. That the other fathers were actually even jealous of, because he was just so loving and patient and kind. And that everybody who knew him just adores him. And I think that's the thing that she's hoping, you know, won't get lost in this. COSTELLO: Celia Behar, thanks for joining me this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, new details on the apparent radicalization of one of the San Bernardino shooters. Coming up next, hear different opinions about the gunman from people who knew him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:17:18] COSTELLO: New details this morning involving the shooters behind the San Bernardino massacre. Law enforcement sources tell us Syed Rizwan Farook appears to have been radicalized.

So let's talk about that with CNN law enforcement analyst Jonathan Gilliam, along with Ryan Levin. He's from the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at CalState San Bernardino.

Welcome. And welcome to you, Jonathan.

Thank you.

COSTELLO: First, I want you both to hear what Farook's brother-in-law had to say about him on NBC this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

F. KHAN: He was a good religious person. Just like a normal, anybody would be. But nothing -- nothing that I can see that he could do that.

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: Nothing that would fit the term radicalized, as we've heard?

F. KHAN: No, not that I can think. I mean, not the person I know. He was not radical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. I couldn't quite hear that, but I do know what he had to say. So Farook's brother-in-law says he's not radicalized, Brian, but how can he say that knowing all that police found in his home?

BRIAN LEVIN, PROFESSOR, CSU SAN BERNARDINO: Look, we have to have compassion for people who are probably experiencing a lot of stress and might be in denial. Bottom line is we see certain types of people who commit mass and symbolic acts of violence. They are either ideologically motivated, that could be political, theological, or a hybrid. Number two, psychologically dangerous, cognitively impaired, or sociopath. And then thirdly personal benefit or revenge.

And when you put the non-conclusive pieces of evidence together and you tie them up, it's pointing more and more to someone who is radicalized and this can happen over time in a very short amount of time, we're seeing, especially with social networks, the Internet. If there's a peer or a family or a friend, as well as foreign travel. None of these things are conclusive on their own. But the more evidence that comes in, particularly this -- I mean, this cache of weapons and explosives. This is not a typical workplace violence type of thing. And --

COSTELLO: So in your estimation, they're terrorists?

LEVIN: Well, as a former law enforcement officer, I always let the evidence lead me, not me lead the evidence, but I would say right now, the preponderance of the evidence tilt towards terrorism.

COSTELLO: OK. OK. I'm going to have to interrupt you. I want to go to Jim Sciutto. And Jim, I'm just warning you, I probably can't hear you. But I do know you have breaking new information about one of the suspects. That would be Farook's wife. What is it, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Carol, this is an important new development in this case. And I'm going to be careful as we read this language here.

[10:20:02] But the news is that investigators now believe that there's a connection to ISIS in the San Bernardino shooting. They have found a connection to ISIS. That is that the female attacker, the wife, Tashfeen Malik, posted on Facebook pledging allegiance to the ISIS leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. These are three officials telling CNN, three officials familiar with the investigation.

The posting by Malik was made on an account, we are told, with a different name, one U.S. official telling CNN. The officials have not told us or explained exactly how, what device she used to make that posting. A law enforcement official telling us that it appears the attack may have been inspired by ISIS as a result of this social media posting, but to be clear here, there's no evidence at this point that it was directed by ISIS. So inspired by ISIS but not directed by ISIS.

This is looking more and more like self-radicalization, a law enforcement official told my colleague, Pam Brown, in relation to this. Another official has told us that it has not been ruled out that someone influenced them on the path of radicalization. But the key here is that as this attack was under way or just before it, that the wife of the shooter, Farook, Tashfeen Malik, she posted to social media, to Facebook, a pledge of allegiance to the ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

I should note for context as well, that in previous ISIS-inspired attacks, this is something that attackers have done. In fact they've been asked to do by ISIS to make a posting in support of ISIS, of the ISIS as they're doing it on social media, on Twitter, Facebook. So there is some precedence of this. But yet again, multiple officials telling CNN this morning, that as this attack was underway, that posting made by the wife, the one open question here is what device did she use, what name did she use, because we are told it was done under a different name account. but still the connection there now seeing -- investigators seeing now at this stage a direct connection to ISIS -- Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. So a couple of questions, just to be clear. So after killing 14 people, she may have posted something on her Facebook page, pledging support to al-Baghdadi?

SCIUTTO: To be clear, Carol, it could have been before or during, as it was underway. Not necessarily after. But at the time, around the time of the attacks, she made this pledge of allegiance to the ISIS leader.

COSTELLO: So why not use your real name? Why post it under a different account?

SCIUTTO: That's something that investigators are looking into now. But keep in mind, based on reporting of my colleague this morning, Evan Perez and Pam Brown, that they found two destroyed cell phones near the -- scene of the shooting and that the hard drive that they found in their home had been taken out of their computer. Hard drive taken out of the computer. So it appears, investigators pursuing this further, but it appears that they were covering their digital tracks, so to speak.

So this might fall under the same umbrella. That you post under a different name because you covered your digital tracks. Regardless, and this is somewhat of a paradox because she clearly wanted it out there then, that she was involved in these attacks and that these attacks were inspired by ISIS. But this is one of those many questions that investigators right now are trying to harden up at this stage. But this is the first time we've heard a direct connection to ISIS with that pledge of allegiance to the ISIS leader.

COSTELLO: All right. I want to bring in Jonathan Gilliam and ask you a question about this, Jonathan. So there were two destroyed cell phone and a missing hard drive at the couple's home. So could the reason that those items were found that these -- this couple was trying to cover up who was assisting them in this effort, this horrible effort?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Very well could be. And you see, what we have to realize, Carol, is that if this is a cell, and this has the makings of a cell, just that bag alone that you keep seeing the pictures of with all those pipe bombs in there, there's just -- in order for someone to carry an attack like this out, it's better to have other people go, for instance, purchase those items.

I would not be surprised at all if this individual and his wife never touched those items from a store until they got into their house. And then either they manufactured them or somebody else did and brought them there. This is the way that these terror cells work. Just like a covert military group. So what you'll see here is that hard drives, cell phones, anything that can link them to this -- to a cell would be -- you know, they would attempt to get rid of those things.

The mistake, and this is the Achilles heel, for anyone who carries out a terrorist attack, as soon as you do that, you've now notified to everybody, here we are. And if they're part of a cell and the investigation can find the clues then that will expand.

[10:25:02] And I will say this about -- before we went to this breaking news, the brother, we have to start looking at people -- Erin Burnett did an interview with the Paris attacker's brother. We have to look closely at what these individuals are saying because when they use statements like, I don't think so, that's a minimization statement. And we need to really start looking at closely at the relatives when they say things like that because that's very odd.

If my sister had done something like that and I had no idea about it, you would see me say, I had no idea. This is crazy. But when you say, I don't think that she was radicalized, to me that's a minimization statement and that's a little odd.

COSTELLO: OK. Jim -- I want to go back to Jim Sciutto for just a second. So this message was posted on a Facebook page. How do authorities know that this Malik posted it herself?

SCIUTTO: Authorities haven't told us how they have connected the Facebook page to her. But just for context, they might do that through a device that she's known to use. We all leave digital signatures even when we're not leaving our name. Keep in mind, that is exactly what they're doing right now. They're looking at computers, they're looking at cell phones found at the scene, et cetera. So that's the way that they would establish a connection like this. But they are confident that it came from her, even though it was under a different name.

COSTELLO: Interesting. So, Brian, you heard what Jonathan Gilliam said, right?

LEVIN: Yes.

COSTELLO: Do you agree?

LEVIN: Yes. Look, and one of them we were talking about, too, is could she have been the one that was the catalyst for his radicalization? Oftentimes when we see duos, it might very well be a cell. One of the things that I was thinking about, a couple of things. One, the amount of weaponry and explosive devices told me that this is more than a workplace attack. And in addition, I think they wanted to do other attacks. I think they wanted to do other attacks --

COSTELLO: But they had like a bomb-making lab in their garage.

LEVIN: Oh, my gosh. And I heard the lawyers talking this morning with Chris Cuomo. I was like, yes, that's not very convincing. So look, one of the things that we're seeing, though, ISIS, if they can't get people here or they can't get people to train over there, they're interested in inspiring people here. You read "Dabique" magazine, they say, hey, do what you can here, even if you can't go -- do what you can in the West, hit Italy, hit France, hit Britain, hit the United States. This was their big target. They talked about it right afterwards.

And what happens is, when you inspire people, and this has been the debate within the Salafist jihadis community, should we get only the best and hit the most spectacular targets, or should we get whoever is around and have them hit what's close to them. And that's what ISIS --

COSTELLO: Like a holiday party.

LEVIN: Anything. Anything that they're close to. But they lacked a lot of sophistication which leaves me to believe that they were inspired but not necessarily well-trained. And what's going to be interesting is, how far does this go? Is this just this duo here locally or is there some kind of cell and there's going to be this unraveling of these digital and forensic fingerprints. And it will be interesting to see how this radicalization took place. And oftentimes what you will have like when you have Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, one is a dominant person who then manipulates a more vulnerable person.

COSTELLO: That's right.

LEVIN: And the thing is, this mosque is not an extremist mosque. I know the head of that mosque so it seems to me that they would have been radicalized through the Internet and some peers perhaps.

COSTELLO: You mean the mosque that Farook attended?

LEVIN: Yes.

COSTELLO: OK. I've got to leave it there. I've got to take a break.

LEVIN: Yes. Sure.

COSTELLO: Brian, stand by. Jonathan Gilliam, stand by. I got to take a break. We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)