Return to Transcripts main page
FAREED ZAKARIA GPS
The San Bernardino Attacks; Interview with Susan Rice; Interview with Bono and The Edge. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired December 6, 2015 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:09] FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST: This is GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria.
We have a terrific show for you this week with two big exclusives.
ZAKARIA: First up, President Obama's national security advisor, Susan Rice. On the world wide terror threat, ISIS, Syria, Russia and Turkey.
And Bono and the Edge. U2 were in Paris when terror struck that city. They will play there tonight in an act of joyous defiance. Before they left for France, I talked to the politically minded rock legends about terror from the IRA to ISIS. How their music fights evil and how we should all respond to terrorism but also to the refugees from those war-torn regions.
BONO, U2 LEAD SINGER: This idea of we'd only take Christian refugees, this is not the American idea.
ZAKARIA: Also, one of America's most important allies. The superstar of the revolutions of 1989 has taken a dangerous turn toward authoritarianism. It's a story we should all be paying attention to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAKARIA: But first here's my take. The most recent act of horrific violence in America in San Bernardino, California, was perpetrated by a Muslim man and woman.
There are around three million Muslims in the United States. Almost all of whom are law-abiding citizens.
How should they react to the actions of the couple that killed 14 people this week?
The most commonly heard response is that Muslims must immediately and loudly condemn these acts of barbarity. But Dalia Mogahed, a Muslim American leader, argues that this is just unfair. Right after the Paris attacks, she made her case to NBC's Chuck Todd as Vox's Max Fisher pointed out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) Now when you look at the majority of terrorist attacks in the United States, according to the FBI, the majority of domestic terrorist attacks are actually committed by white male Christians. When those things occur, we don't suspect other people who share their faith and ethnicity of condoning them. We assume these things are -- you know, outrage them just as much as they do anyone else. And we have to afford that same assumption of innocence to Muslims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAKARIA: Muslims do face a double standard. But I understand why. Muslim terrorists don't just happen to be Muslim. They claim to be motivated by religion, cite religious justifications for their actions and tell their fellow Muslims to follow in their bloody path. There are groups around the world spreading this religiously infused ideology and trying to seduce Muslims to become terrorists.
In these circumstances it is important for the majority of Muslim who profoundly disagree with jihad to speak up. But it is important also to remember that it is an overwhelming majority who disagree.
There are 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet. If you took the total number of deaths from all terrorism last year, around 30,000, and assume that 50 Muslims were involved in planning each one, a vast exaggeration, it would still add up to less than 0.1 percent of the world's Muslims.
While I do believe that Muslims bear a special responsibility to speak up, non-Muslims have a responsibility not to make assumptions about Muslims based on such a small minority. In America of all places individuals should be judged as individuals and not placed under suspicion for some group characteristic. It's dehumanizing and un- American to do otherwise.
But increasingly Americans do seem to view a Muslim as someone who is actively propagating some dangerous ideology like a communist activist. It's not just Donald Trump. Republican candidates are vying with each other to make insinuations and declarations about Islam and all Muslims.
And it's not just on the right. The television personality and outspoken liberal Bill Mahr made the broad generalization recently that if you are in this religion, you probably do have values that are at odds with American values.
[10:05:07] What is most bizarre is to hear this anti-Muslim rhetoric described as brave truth-telling. Trump insists that he will not be silenced on the issue. Chris Christie says that he will not follow a politically correct national security policy.
Now they are simply feeding a prejudice. The reality is that Muslims today are the most despised minority in America. They're faith is constantly criticized. They face insults, discrimination and a dramatic rise in acts of violence against them as Max Fisher has detailed superbly. And the leading Republican candidate has flirted with the idea of registering all Muslims, a form of collective punishment that has not been seen since the internment of Japanese Americans in the 1940s.
It is the first time that I can recall watching politicians pander to mobs and then congratulate themselves for their political courage.
For more go to CNN.com/fareed and read my "Washington Post" column this week. And let's get started.
We'll get to my exclusive interviews with Susan Rice, the National Security adviser, and Bono and the Edge of U2 in just a moment. But I first want to tackle the mass shooting this week in San Bernardino, California, and the shooters' connection with ISIS.
To help us understand, I want to bring in my colleague Jim Sciutto, who was part of the CNN team that broke the story of the female attacker's pledge of allegiance to ISIS.
Jim, explain to us why the FBI now is investigating this as an act of terrorism.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fareed, the FBI says that they have good reason to do so. And now we have some details on what those reasons are. One, this Facebook posting, a pledge of allegiance to the ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, by the wife, Tashfeen Malik, as this attack was under way. Significant in its own right, significant as well because we know there's precedent for this. ISIS-inspired attackers posting similar pledges prior to or during the attack.
The second is, that the male shooter had contact with known terrorism subjects. Not suspects or terrorists, we're not talking about an ISIS leader or an al Qaeda leaders or operatives, but known sympathizers. That's significant, of course, in its own right, but also because again, that has been shown in the past as a path not only to radicalization but those sort of contacts have often proceeded, people who have chosen to go carry out acts of terror.
The final reason that the FBI will cite is just the most obvious. The enormous arsenal that they amassed. 6,000 -- more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition. Two long rifles, one of which they had apparently changed, modified, to make it from semi-automatic to automatic, as well as more than a dozen pipe bombs that looked similar in design to those recipes in effect that have been put out there by groups such as ISIS and al Qaeda.
ZAKARIA: And what are they looking at, Jim, in terms of figuring out what really strikes me as this puzzle of what exactly radicalized this couple?
SCIUTTO: You know, it's still a subject of investigation. And as you know that's often a complicated story with multiple threads. And they are looking at multiple threads. One that they are looking at frankly is that the wife was the instigator of this. They don't know it but they're looking because colleagues and family have said that he changed somewhat, became more conservative after he married her. That said, other families have said that that change occurred before they were married. But that's still a path of inquiry. ZAKARIA: Thanks, Jim Sciutto. Terrific reporting.
Next on GPS, an exclusive interview with President Obama's National Security adviser, Susan Rice.
[10:13:14] ZAKARIA: Let's get straight to our first exclusive interview of the show. Susan Rice has been the president's National Security adviser for more than two years. Before that of course she was the U.S. representative at the U.N.
When I sat down with Ambassador Rice on Thursday, much was still unknown about the shootings in San Bernardino. But the topic of terror was at the top of mind.
ZAKARIA: Ambassador Rice, thank you so much for joining me.
SUSAN RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It's great to be with you, Fareed.
ZAKARIA: Does Paris represent some kind of new heightened level of activity? Are you noticing, are you hearing more chatter or different kinds of plots?
RICE: Well, with the caveat that I'm not going to get into intelligence information, I think it's fair to say that we've seen indications for some while that ISIL has increasing capability to execute attacks outside of Iraq and Syria. And indeed, if you recall we saw earlier attacks in Brussels, Belgium. We saw attempts elsewhere in Paris. And then of course, in recent weeks we've seen the ISIL affiliate in the Sinai take down the Russian aircraft as well as attacks in Beirut, Lebanon and elsewhere.
So I think this -- Paris was obviously a particularly shocking and multi-facetted attack. But I think it's in line with what we have seen to be ISIL's capability that is growing to project violence outside of the Iraq and Syria theaters.
ZAKARIA: Is it fair to say that the president and you, the administration, underestimated ISIS when calling it a jayvee team?
[10:15:04] RICE: Fareed, I think, look, we have been on top of the threat since the summer of 2014 when ISIL made a significant move to take territory in Iraq. And from that point on, we have acted militarily but not just militarily. We built diplomatically a coalition of 65 countries. We had worked to cut off ISIL's source of revenue and financing through an active counter financing campaign and now through trying to take out their oil production and distribution network.
We've tried to counter the flow of foreign fighters into Syria and Iraq. And we've done that in partnership with dozens of countries who strengthen their laws and regulations. ZAKARIA: Are those -- on those two fronts, would you say you're
making progress, that is to say, the oil revenues? You hear people constantly saying on the campaign trail, we should be bombing the oil fields.
RICE: We are. We are.
ZAKARIA: And on the recruits. It does seem like they keep continue to get recruits.
RICE: I think we -- they certainly are continuing to get recruits. There's no question. What is a positive step and this is going to have to be a constant battle is that we are increasingly seeing countries around the world trying to interdict their own citizens before they leave. And also we see improvements, although by no means sufficient, in countries like Turkey which are some of the frontline states through which the foreign fighters have flowed cutting off the passage routes for those who have come in from elsewhere.
ZAKARIA: Hillary Clinton says that she thinks the administration's policy towards ISIS needs to be intensified and in particular you need to have a no-fly zone and create safe havens. Why is she wrong?
RICE: Well, we agree and we are intensifying our strategy and accelerating our efforts with ISIL. I mean, we have been constantly assessing and revising and improving our strategy from the time we began summer of 2014. And well before the events of the last few weeks we were in process of deciding and the president did decide to a number of enhancements that have subsequently been announced.
The special operations forces and limited and tactical ways in Syria, working with the Turks to close off the border. The expedition and the targeting force which will enable us to go after high valued targets and other opportunities to collect and take advantage of intelligence, we are doing a number of things that are building on what we have found works and where we have seen the things don't work, we have let them -- we've divested them in effect from our strategy. So we are very much intensifying and accelerating.
With respect to no-fly zones and safe areas, this is something we have looked at very carefully and repeatedly including very recently. And while they are certainly arguments that could be make for the humanitarian benefits, although frankly they are not black and white, and can come back to that, they are not, in our estimation, the most effective and proximate thing we can do to counter ISIL. They're very resource intensive. And they don't get to the problem of taking back territory from ISIL. Plus, they require tens of thousands of troops on the ground holding territory. If you're going to have a safe zone.
ZAKARIA: What do you do about this process of self-radicalization where ISIL has the ability to social media, propagate its message and somewhere somebody in some basement is getting self-radicalized and goes out and kills a bunch of people.
RICE: Fareed, that's a very real challenge. And it's one that preceded ISIL. And I've presumed it will be one that will endure beyond ISIL and its defeat. But what ISIL has done, perhaps more effectively than some of its predecessor organization, is utilized social media. And the very intoxicating message that has attracted significant numbers of foreign fighters. But the other thing that's attracted significant numbers of foreign fighters is this methodology of the caliphate. And ISIS controlling significant swaths of territory in Syria and Iraq.
And one of the reasons why we're focusing a great deal of our effort and attention as a coalition on shrinking the space that ISIL controls and ultimately defeating them in that space is substantially to deal with the attractiveness to some extremists of the concept of caliphate.
[10:20:05] So this is going to have to be a multi-facetted, and it is a multi-faceted endeavor. And as I said it's going to take time and success is not going to be linear. It's going to have to be substantially focused in Iraq and Syria but not exclusively. Because we are seeing ISIL evolve in other parts of the world and discussed our effort to address it in places like Libya. But we're also working to address it in places like Nigeria where Boka Haram, which is in fact one of the deadliest terrorist organization in the world has taken up the ISIL mantle.
ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, I will ask Ambassador Rice about the United States' strained relations with Vladimir Putin and Russia. And just what was Putin saying to her and to President Obama in this picture.
ZAKARIA: Back now with Susan Rice. She's President Obama's national security adviser. Listen in.
ZAKARIA: There's this photograph, very intriguing photograph of you, President Obama, Vladimir Putin and I assume a translator.
[10:25:05] RICE: A translator.
ZAKARIA: Huddled around a coffee table in a hotel at the G-20 meeting. What was he saying to you?
RICE: It was a conference center, not a hotel.
ZAKARIA: What was he saying to you?
RICE: Well, it's an extended conversation of almost a half hour. And we were talking about these very issues of what needs to happen to move forward in Syria on a diplomatic path.
ZAKARIA: Do you think that he has the same -- does Russia have the same interest as the United States in that conversation?
RICE: No. We don't have identical interests, obviously. There are some overlapping interests. But there are some divergences as I just described. So the challenge is, can we maximize our area of overlapping interest. For example, we think that the Russians do share an interest, ultimately, particularly following the experience with their aircraft in weakening ISIL. However, they are investing primarily at this point in propping up Assad. They think that the way to fight ISIL is to have a strong government in Damascus under Assad.
We think the way to fight ISIL is to have a legitimate government and we think Assad, by virtue of killing hundreds of thousands of his own citizens has lost all legitimacy. He has to go. And there needs to be a -- a political dispensation so that the majority population who are Sunni in Syria feel that they have an opportunity to govern, not exclusively but proportionate to their population if that's how they choose to vote.
So the challenge is not so much in terms of agreeing on the ends. It's agreeing on the means. And we still have some significant differences on the means. President's been very clear. He would welcome Russia playing an effective role in going exclusively after ISIL. Unfortunately Russia is going a little bit after ISIL but mostly is going after the other elements of the opposition that directly threaten the Assad regime.
ZAKARIA: Final question, in the last year you've had what studies seem to show is a 50 percent increase in the number of deaths through terrorism. You have Russia not just in the Middle East but in Ukraine refusing to abide by the terms of the cease-fire. You have Boka Haram as you pointed out.
Does the world feel more dangerous to you than when he you began your job as national security advisor to the president?
RICE: I don't know if it feels more dangerous, Fareed, but it's certainly unsettled. And we're dealing with some very significant threats as we have been discussing throughout the course of the interview.
But I think also there's more to what's going on in the world than the instability and the terrorist threat as important and critical as that is. You know, the United States has been dealing with a number of leadership challenges. And in every instance even as we're dealing with these proximate threats, we're trying to exert leadership in the way that makes the world more safe.
So we have led the world to where we are hoping to get to in Paris with respect to combating climate change. It was the United States, staking out ambitious targets s, partnering with China. Getting China for the first time to greet (INAUDIBLE). This led to 180 nations around the world putting forward very significant commitments that taken collectively will have a significant impact on climate change.
It was the United States who brought the world together to deal with the Ebola epidemic in West Africa. And while that's something we're going to have to always be vigilant about, what could have been a massive global health challenge is now largely snuffed out. That was U.S. leadership. We have led the world to come to an agreement with Iran to ensure that
Iran does not acquire nuclear weapon. Something that will keep our allies in the region and all of us internationally for our safety. We're executed in the storm's opening to Cuba, which ends 50 years of a failed policy.
So, Fareed, around the world, even as we're having to deal with these very significant challenges of the sort that we've been talking about, primarily we've also been working to enhance and ensure Americans long-term security whether from pandemic disease or climate change or increasing economic opportunity through things like TPP.
So the challenge is dealing with all these things simultaneously, making sure that we're on top of the threats but also not losing sight of the opportunities and getting as far as fast as we can on seizing those opportunities.
ZAKARIA: Ambassador Susan Rice, pleasure having you on.
RICE: Good to be with you.
ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, why the world should be extremely worried about the direction of one of America's staunchest allies. It's the story that's been flying mostly under the radar. We will bring it to you next.
ZAKARIA: Now for our "What in the World" segment. The nation of Poland is arguably the greatest success story of the Eastern European revolutions of the late 1980s and early 1990s. Once a basket case, its economy has grown more than any other country in the entire European Union since the fall of communism according to the economists. It's been a model citizen in the E.U. and a reliable NATO ally.
But events in Poland have taken a very ugly turn. At the end of October the country's right wing Law and Justice Party won a majority in parliament. Since then, it has embarked on a dizzingly rapid power grab that has drawn comparisons with a coup d'etat. In a legally questionable move, the new parliament voided the appointments of five judges to the constitutional court. So they could be replaced with ones to the party's liking. "This is an anti-Democratic march in the direction of a dictatorship," said a former chief judge of the court. The party also named a new head of the country's secret services who happened to be given a three-year prison sentence for abusing his previous office. Poland's president, a party loyalist, issued him a pardon so the appointment could go through.
The Law and Justice Party also appears to be bringing back Soviet style censorship. Its new minister of culture ordered a play by a Nobel-prize winning author to be banned. The party has reneged on the country's promise to take in thousands of refugees and has contributed to anti-immigrant rhetoric that critics say has emboldened dark forces in Poland. At one recent rally, people shouted angry chants against migrants than burnt an effigy of an orthodox Jew.
All of this is very troubling and surprising, because in recent years, Poland has been a rare pillow of stability in Europe. Over the last decade its economy grew 50 percent, "The New York Times" points out, and big companies like Ikea, Volkswagen and Amazon, all have made big investments there.
Despite this rosy outlook, the previous ruling party which had been in power for eight years, had worn out its welcome thanks to scandals and bad politics, so the electorate chose a new course. Prime Minister Beata Szydlo is the official head of the government, but observers say that party leader Jaroslaw Kaczynski is really the one in charge. Kaczynski has expressed admiration for Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary who has curved freedom of expression and controlled his nation's press with an iron fist.
Poland like its neighbor appears headed toward illiberal democracy, a concept I wrote about many, many years ago and that Orban has openly embraced, where people have the right to vote, but civil liberties and the rule of law are far from guaranteed.
If Europe is to face down its daunting problems today like the refugee crisis and Vladimir Putin's aggression, it needs a stable Poland to lead those battles. Let's hope that cooler heads prevail and the crown jewel of Eastern Europe.
Next on "GPS", the biggest rock stars ever to grace our stage. Indeed, most stages, Bono and the Edge. U2 was set to play Paris the night after last month's attacks. We'll talk about the City of Lights resilience.
BONO, LEAD SINGER, U2: Paris is a very romantic city. And, you know, the essence of romance is defiance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAKARIA: And why they insisted on playing there as soon as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONO: We think of music as the sound of freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAKARIA: They will play in Paris this evening. But first, they talked to me exclusively.
[10:42:44] ZAKARIA: On Friday the 13th of November, terror struck the City of Lights. In Paris that night were the members of one of the most successful rock bands of all time, U2. They were in town for a concert of their own, said to be held the next night and to be broadcast by CNN's sister company, HBO.
But instead of playing their instruments on stage that day, the members of the band laid flowers at the Bataclan. The show will go on, however. U2 will play Paris tonight and tomorrow and HBO will air U2 innocence, an experience live in Paris on Monday night 9:00 p.m. Eastern.
To talk about the significance of that night in Paris and its aftermath, I'm pleased to be joined now by the lead singer of U2, Bono and the band's guitarist, the Edge. Hey, guys. What was it like to be in Paris when these attacks took place?
BONO: It was, obviously, awful and chaotic and you immediately think of who you know, your crew, who's out in the city. That kind of mentality. And then, of course, we thought about fellow the Eagles of Death and just what was happening there. Because they were still locked in at that time.
ZAKARIA: And this was the band playing at the Bataclan where the largest number of people died?
BONO: Yeah, when we tried to help them the next day with various things. We tried to find a plane for them to get out and things like that. It turns out the best way to help them was finding them phones. Because their phones had been left in the venue and the venue had been sealed off. So, they were in the police station and back in the hotel rooms without communications. So, it turns out that was the most useful thing that we did, was find them some phones.
ZAKARIA: In a way this was an attack on the kind of life you guys represent, right? I mean it's an attack on rock music, the single largest place where the people died was a rock concert.
THE EDGE: It seemed like the target was culture and every kind of expression of the best of humanity. You know, music, restaurants, French food, everything that was -- that we hold dear seemed to be the target.
And, of course, France is also - it's the birth of the enlightenment movement, which gave birth to America. It's like the place where the modern Western world was born. So, I think the thing that we have to hold onto now in the aftermath is that we are not wrong. The instinct to start dousing these values and these ideas is like we're right. We're right. And that's why we're so determined to get back to Paris as soon as we can.
ZAKARIA: Did you think about even playing the next day? Was it even possible?
BONO: We, of course, hoped we can play the next day. But then it dawned on us just how serious it was. To just give up on that.
THE EDGE: We actually - we didn't have a choice because within a few hours of the problem starting, we were given word by the city that they were shutting down all events. So, it wasn't that we had to ...
BONO: It wasn't even our decision.
THE EDGE: No.
BONO: But we were very determined to get back there as quick as we can. Paris is a very romantic city. And, you know, the essence of romance is defiance. And defiant joy, we think is the mark of our band and of rock and roll. They're a death cult. We're a life cult, life force. You know, as The Edge was saying, they are celebrating all things we love, food, soccer. They're trying to destroy those things. They don't like women. What else is there? You know, I mean music, women. So, we really - and we've sensed that defiance in Paris. And the word from our fans is, I think it was 300 tickets not taken up. Something really small for here.
ZAKARIA: For the rescheduled show.
BONO: For the rescheduled show.
ZAKARIA: Only 300 people.
BONO: And they're probably people coming from, you know, other continents, I don't know.
ZAKARIA: So, everyone who could have been there that day ....
THE EDGE: Is showing up.
ZAKARIA: I saw somebody, you remember right after the attacks, a guy brings out his piano outside the Bataclan and starts playing "Imagine." And we showed that clip on TV. And you sent me a nice e- mail about it. I saw a couple of people write articles saying how hopeless this is. This is the sign of the West decadence. Is that the response to terrorism, music? I take it you think that is a response.
BONO: That's poetry in music. And humor. Three things. Old fascist organizations are afraid of humor. That's why Hitler outlawed vidatas (ph) and the surrealists. So, you know, violence is their language. When you unseat their sort of male energy and just - and that feminine energy of playing music is beautiful. I mean think about the idea of outlawing music. A child sings before it can speak. It's the very essence of our humanity. This music.
THE EDGE: There's only been a couple of political movements in the history of the world that have targeted music specifically. The Taliban banned music and during Mao's Cultural Revolution, also music was banned. And we think of music as the sound of freedom. We think that rock n' roll has a part to play and - so, going back to Paris is not just symbolic, I think we're actually starting the process of resistance as it were and defiance against this movement.
ZAKARIA: Now, the concert you're doing is really about innocence and experience. It's about growing up in Ireland in a time, in which you have political violence, terrorism, sectarian religious struggle. When we come back, I want to ask Bono and The Edge to talk about how the fast informs our understanding of this world of violence and sectarianism and terrorism that we're dealing with. When we come back.
ZAKARIA: And we are back with U2's Bono and The Edge. You've gone through terrorism, religious extremism, violence.
BONO: I was just ...
ZAKARIA: You were growing up with all this. So, when you see - back in this world, I mean what does it make you think?
BONO: Yeah, you know, the theme of the show, people were saying, are you rewriting this show for Paris. And we thought, actually, it wouldn't change that much. It almost looks like it was written for Paris post the attacks because it's about the loss of innocence through violence. And whether it's domestic violence. Or institutional or - you know, paramilitary violence. And indeed, this is uncle raised by wolves, which is halfway through the concert, which documents coordinated bomb attacks, three bombs went off in Dublin. 33 people killed. And on any Friday night, I would have been standing at this bus stop, right in the epicenter of it. But this was a bus strike and I cycled to school. But a friend of mine did not escape. And then his life - he survived, but his life has changed, and it's still changed by it.
And, you know, we came from Paris. From all this chaos to where - Belfast.
We were playing some shows in Belfast. We came to the peace and quiet of Belfast, and there is a lesson in peace make. And you know, people think that peace comes from holding hands. It's wishful thinking. But actually, peace is a dream you have while you are awake. Peace is like pulling teeth. It's tiny victory, small steps, a brutal peace, actually. A lot of compromise was taken to get peace in Ireland. But it was there, and U2 is the smallest part of the gig. It was like the city of Belfast celebrating itself, but it gave me real encouragement for other so called intractable conflicts.
ZAKARIA: Sunday Bloody Sunday. Your song.
BONO: Sunday Bloody Sunday.
ZAKARIA: When a lot of people wonder, is that - were you condemning the IRA, were you condemning - you know, when you've confronted that kind of thing and you use music to respond, what are you saying?
THE EDGE: I think most importantly it's a song against violence as a tool for politics of any kind. And our experience in Ireland bore that out. Peace broke out as Bono described through dialogue, to compromise when people actually sat down and started to realize that they had a common goal for their, the aspirations of the people they represented. That was far more to be gained by getting together than by continuing in the same cycle of violence and suspicion and mistrust. So, that is the theme of that song is that violence can never create a meaningful solution to anything.
BONO: And again, and there's some similarities here about how Christianity had been abused as indeed it had by the crusaders. If you think about it 1000 years ago, they were doing what these Islamists are doing now, which is a perversion of their faith. You know, Islam -- you do know, sorry. It means surrender. Not attack. And it's a beautiful though, surrender. The idea of taking up arms for God is the distortion of it. And that's what Sunday, Bloody Sunday was doing, was to point out the cross and Easter in Christ laying down his life for his brothers rather than taking lives.
ZAKARIA: You also must have seen what the effect of various kinds of responses to terrorism were because the way the British responded to a lot of IRA attacks often seem to play into the IRA's hands.
BONO: Well, of course, but it wasn't just in Ireland. When there was bombings in Britain. And I remember instance outside Birmingham where there were roadblocks, vigilante roadblocks. And people with an Irish accent got, you know, got hurt because they must be now part of this conspiracy. And this is the thing to really watch for here in the United States and around the world. You know, the Islamist extremism, particularly ISIS, have a hand book. And they talk about the gray zone. That's their enemy. It's the common place where we get on very well. And so, they seek to destabilize that. Then they've won. This is not just - they're not really after the live. They're not trying to take lives. They're trying to take away our way of life. As you were saying earlier.
So, watch this in the United States. Be very, very careful. This idea of - we'll only take Christian refugees, this is not the American idea. And I'm always saying this, you know. I'm reminding people that America's not just a country. It's an idea. But it's actually a crunch idea. As you were saying, and it's just - it's a moment to refocus on our values, your values. And they're sacred values and watch people who call themselves American. I understand the overreaction. I understand fear. You understand nervousness and security concerns. But particularly on refugees, I think there's 12, maybe it's even 15 state agencies involved in a 24-month ...
BONO: Yeah. And check - checking - think of your great refugees. Think of Madeline Albright. Think of Einstein, Steve Jobs' dad was a Syrian - not refugee, but - immigrant people. Or Irish people. We are - and by the way, refugees probably the right word for us. Because we were running from nothing to where - to these United States. It's a great place. And if they change the nature of the United States and the way people think about pluralism, and inclusiveness, then they win. Don't let them win.
ZAKARIA: Bono, The Edge. Thank you guys so much for being here.
THE EDGE: Thank you.
ZAKARIA: Always a pleasure.
BONO: Thanks for being such a voice of reason.
ZAKARIA: Don't miss U2 Innocence and Experience live in Paris on HBO Monday night at 9 p.m. Eastern. Thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week.