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Race for 2016: Trump Doubles Down on Muslim Travel Ban. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired December 08, 2015 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:02] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Dangerous, reprehensible, and un-American. Fierce backlash hits Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump after he calls for all Muslims to be banned from entering the U.S. Today Trump is refusing to back down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have no doubt that we have no choice but to do exactly what I said until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. Because we have a problem in this country. You look at Paris. You look at the carnage that took place in Paris.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Right.
TRUMP: But look at Paris beyond that. Paris is no longer the beautiful, gorgeous city with all -- Paris has a tremendous a lot of problems. And they have areas in Paris that have been radicalized where the police refused to go in and look at it.
CUOMO: We are well aware --
TRUMP: They refuse to take part in it.
CUOMO: We --
TRUMP: You look at London. You look at other places.
CUOMO: We are well aware.
TRUMP: Now.
CUOMO: We are well aware. But, Mr. Trump, here's the point.
TRUMP: No, now wait a minute, Chris. You're well aware. You say that so routinely. You're well aware.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Well, because I've been on the ground, I've been in those communities.
TRUMP: You look at parts of Paris, nobody is going to go there to --
CUOMO: I've talked to the French authorities.
TRUMP: It's totally out of control. It's so dangerous.
CUOMO: Well, that's what you say. The police are all over that country right now and they're doing a lot of policing, but more importantly to your point, I would say it is the opposite reality. You see the French being more embracing of people around them, you see them living their lives, you see them refusing to accept fear as a basis for behavior.
Whereas here, what you're doing in the country that is known as a symbol of freedom, is saying we're too afraid to be inclusive. We're going to reject the promise of America and ban an entire religion, even though we need to do things on a case-by-case basis. And it seems as though you're acting out of fear, not making us look strong, and rejecting what America is all about. U.K. is not doing this.
TRUMP: No, I'm making us look stronger, Chris.
CUOMO: France isn't doing this.
TRUMP: And don't tell me about Paris. Paris is under tremendous siege. They are absolutely in fear in Paris. Don't tell me Paris is not.
CUOMO: They have heightened awareness. They do not have fear and they're not acting out of it, that's why they're letting in refugees --
TRUMP: Come on. They don't have fear? Of course they have fear. Of course they have fear.
CUOMO: It's how you behave in that environment.
TRUMP: I have people that have friends living in Paris. They want to leave, they're petrified.
CUOMO: But what are they doing? Are they banning all Muslims?
TRUMP: Well, let's see, maybe they're going to have to. Maybe they're going to have to do something.
CUOMO: That's not even on table.
TRUMP: Look, I'm talking about a temporary situation until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on, Chris.
CUOMO: Your party leaders reject this notion.
TRUMP: I don't care about them. Look, look, look.
CUOMO: Well, who do you care about?
TRUMP: I've been a politician for six months because I'm doing what's right. CUOMO: Do you have to impress anybody but yourself with these ideas?
TRUMP: I'm doing what's right. I don't care. I mean maybe this would be great --
CUOMO: How do you know what's right to exempt an entire class of people, an entire religion?
TRUMP: I don't even think of it that way. I only know this.
CUOMO: How is that right? How can it be right?
TRUMP: We have people out there -- excuse me, Chris, can I talk for two seconds?
CUOMO: Please, go ahead. But I want you to tell me why it's right in America.
TRUMP: Can I talk for two seconds, Chris?
CUOMO: Go ahead, please.
TRUMP: We have people out there that want to do great destruction to our country, whether it's 25 percent or 10 percent or 5 percent, it's too much. We have people out there that want to do great, they want our buildings to come down. They want our cities to be crushed. They are living within our country and many of them want to come from outside of our country. I am saying that until we figure this out, we should have a ban. It's very simple. It's very simple.
CUOMO: The reason he says it --
TRUMP: We are at war.
CUOMO: All right.
TRUMP: Get it through your head.
CUOMO: Yes, I understand what you're saying, believe me, I live it. We go to these places, we cover these things. We understand the threat very well and you know that because you get a lot of your information from us, as you tell us. So I get it.
TRUMP: Why do we insist on destroying our country? Why do we -- why are we allowing Syrians in --
CUOMO: What destroys America?
TRUMP: We don't even know where they are, we don't know where they're coming from.
CUOMO: What destroys America?
TRUMP: There's no documentation, there's no paperwork. Why do we insist on destroying our country?
CUOMO: Make the system better. But what tears at America's fabric more than rejecting an entire faith in the land of religious freedom?
TRUMP: Why aren't we allowing Christian from Syria? Chris, let me ask you this. You have a large portion of people from Syria that are Christians. Why aren't we allowing the Christians in? We only allow the Muslims in.
CUOMO: That's not true.
TRUMP: Why aren't we allowing the Christians?
CUOMO: That's just not true. Does it matter to you that it's not true?
TRUMP: It is largely true because the percentage is massively in favor of the Muslims.
CUOMO: You have a massive Muslim population.
TRUMP: Excuse me, Chris, the ones that are in the bigger danger are the Christians. They're the ones having their heads chopped off.
CUOMO: Christians are in trouble. They are being allowed into the refugee program.
TRUMP: We are not allowing the Christians into anywhere near the extent that we should be.
CUOMO: Yes, you know why? Because people like you say Syrian refugees shouldn't come into the country. How can you say let the Syrian Christians in, but you don't want to let Syrian refugees in?
TRUMP: Excuse me. No, we should not let them in because we don't know who they are.
CUOMO: So you shouldn't let them in?
TRUMP: We don't know where they are, we don't know if they're ISIS, we don't know if they're a Trojan horse.
CUOMO: So you care about the Syrian Christians, but not enough to let them in.
TRUMP: Chris, let me ask you this. If we're letting in, why aren't we letting the Christians in? Why are we letting the Muslims in?
CUOMO: You tell me. You're saying no. You're the one saying on. You tell me. Why aren't we letting them in?
TRUMP: Well, I guess Obama set a policy or something. And we don't want to be like Paris where you can't go into the city, where you can't go into sections, where there are police. Their police are afraid to go into certain sections of Paris. They are petrified. They will not do it. They leave the place.
CUOMO: That is a mythology. They're going, they're doing operations by the hundreds. They're getting a handle on the situation. But most importantly, they're staying together.
[09:05:03] And I think that your poll data actually reflects a responsibility on you, Mr. Trump, because people are listening to you and America is great because it is united. Our diversity is our greatest strength.
TRUMP: And you know what, they're listening to me because I have commonsense. That's why. Because most of these politicians, they were not born with business ability --
CUOMO: This doesn't sound like commonsense to a lot of people.
TRUMP: This is commonsense, and that's why I'm doing well. I have commonsense. I know what has to be done. And we don't want have a situation like Paris and we don't want to have another World Trade Center which, by the way, they tried to knock down twice. The first time they were unsuccessful.
CUOMO: Right.
TRUMP: We don't want that, Chris. We need intelligence in this country. We need a certain toughness in this country or we're going to end up like a lot of other places and we're not going to have a country left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: But Trump's critics say his proposal isn't just offensive, it's dangerous. All of this happening as a new CNN-ORC Iowa poll shows Trump tightening his grip around the top spot.
Joining me now Larry Sabato. He is the director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. And we're also joined by CNN political analyst and editor-in-chief of the "Daily Beast" John Avlon.
Thank you, both, for coming on. So much to talk about here.
John, first to you. We just heard that lively discussion between Chris Cuomo and Donald Trump. And Chris basically said, look, this goes to the very heart of the fabric of the United States. You know, the freedom of religion.
But, John, this seems to be resonating, this proposal, with Trump's supporters. We heard them cheering when he talked about it last night. Why is that?
JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, some things are much more important than short-term political cheers. One of those would be the U.S. Constitution. And populist appeals, people will cheer anything especially if they feel afraid that seems to offer them a salve. That's the essence of a demagogue's appeals, is us against them. So it's not whether it resonates in the short-term among his supporters. It's whether it actually contradict ours core values and the U.S. Constitution and this proposal absolutely does.
BROWN: But, Larry, I mean, he is the frontrunner. People clearly -- the more he talks about this and has this rhetoric it seems like his poll numbers go up. Doesn't that matter?
LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: His poll numbers go up in the Republican segment of the population. There is a large nativist population within the Republican Party that strongly backs Donald Trump. However, I would argue that it's not large enough to nominate him and I think that will play out come 2016.
Look, his supporters, as John correctly notes, will support him even more intensely because of this proposal. But just about everybody else will be reminded of what will happen if Donald Trump should become the Republican nominee or president. Unending controversy. Controversy for breakfast, controversy for lunch and controversy for dinner.
BROWN: And, John, I mean, you raised, you know, let alone the Constitution here and how this could be a violation of freedom of religion and other amendments. But, you know, there is also just other practical aspects. How do you test people's religion when they cross a border? I mean, we could go on and on. Trump said back in September, John, I love Muslims. I would have a Muslim as part of my Cabinet. Obviously this is a stark difference. Is he simply just seizing on, capitalizing on people's fears right now in the wake of these terrorist attacks?
AVLON: Of course. I mean that's -- of course he is. It's a naked attempt and again done in a press release. Not an off-the-cuff comment, in a -- one of the rambling speeches he gives that are a combination of entertainment and old time demagoguery. This is a policy proposal from the leading Republican candidate for president and that's why it should be taken seriously. And that's why frankly I think it's time to take a stand against him.
If Republicans care about setting the integrity, let alone electability of their party, now is the time to call this out because, you know, fear -- policies that appeal to fear can do very well in the short-term but they are really dangerous to our country and our Constitution in the long run, as well as the electability of the Republican Party and its ability to unite as oppose to divide Americans.
So the short-term standard isn't his political popularity. It's what -- it's contradiction to core values and court documents in our country. That's why this is urgent. That's why this matters and that's why it matters -- on a field much bigger than simply partisan primary politics.
BROWN: And almost immediately, Larry, we saw the GOP backlash. Just about every candidate has come out and said something to the extent of this is reprehensible. This goes against the fabric of the United States. Do you think that this could be sort of the straw that broke the camel's back for Donald Trump or not?
SABATO: Well, there have been a lot of straws over the past six months that we thought would break the camel's back and hasn't. And I don't think it will break the back of those who are strong Trump supporters. But I tell you the effect it is having. [09:10:03] We've talked about Trump having a strong floor of
supporters that keeps him up in the mid-20s let's say. But he also has a very low ceiling. And that low ceiling is in perhaps the mid- 30s. What this controversy is doing, because it is so universally opposed by his other candidates, the other candidates running against him, it is taking the concrete of the ceiling and reinforcing it. Making it stronger. So that it will be even more difficult for him to ever break through that ceiling.
BROWN: But, John, just quickly, you know, in that interview with Chris, Trump said towards the end, look, this is commonsense. You know, and that is really all along is what he's just been -- he's just been saying what he thinks. He says, I'm not into politics. I'm not going to play those games. This is commonsense. Clearly the American people, though -- this is really resonating with them. Why? Why from your perspective, from your analysis why?
AVLON: I don't know if you can say it's resonating with the American people. As Larry said, it's resonating with the core base in the Republican Party right now. Conservative populist who are full of fear about immigration and terrorism. Terrorism is a threat we need to confront. But doing it at the contradiction of basic civil liberties as a sign of a campaign that's predicated on bigotry and a bullying ideology that's contrary to our best traditions, the best traditions of the Republican Party.
And I remind you, as we look at Iowa polls, you know, the oldest mosque in America dating back in the 1930s is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. You know, Iowa's governor, Robert Ray, welcomed refugees in, in the wake of the Vietnam war. There are other deeper, better traditions in the Republican Party and in the early caucuses, and those are what we need to repair to right now and not give in to short-term polls that reflect some of the worst instincts and worst fears of the American people.
BROWN: John Avlon, Larry Sabato, thank you very much.
When it comes to criticism, Trump is taking heat from both sides of the aisle as we just talked about. For more on that let's bring in CNN political reporter Sara Murray.
Sara, it didn't like long for the other presidential candidates to chime in on this.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's absolutely right, Pam. And like you said it was almost universal. We saw Jeb Bush tweeting that Donald Trump is unhinged. We saw Lindsey Graham coming out and saying it's not just that this is outrageous but also that it's dangerous. And this is basically what we've heard from most of the Republican field.
I think one big glaring exception to that, though, is Texas Senator Ted Cruz. He basically said this isn't my plan and he laid out his own strategy. And that sort of gives you a sense of how Ted Cruz is really competing to try to peel away the same base of supporters that Donald Trump is talking to here. He's been really careful about criticizing Trump and this proposal seems to be no different.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What is your reaction to hearing what Donald Trump says?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Disgusted. I want to talk to the Trump supporters for a minute. I don't know who you are and I don't know why you like this guy.
CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump always plays on everyone's worst instincts and fears and saying we're not going to let a single Muslim into this country is a dangerous overreaction.
MARTIN O'MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think Donald Trump's statements are the sort of demagoguery that sometimes precedes fascism. And I think it's outrageous. And I think all of us have an obligation to speak out against this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: So you see there's sort of a sense of the reactions we're getting. And we're getting it on both sides of the aisle. Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton have also panned this proposal coming from Donald Trump. The real question, though, as you were talking about earlier is whether this really moves his numbers. And I think the reality is for Trump, there are base of core conservatives, particularly in places like Iowa, that he knows this proposal will appeal to and could move him even higher in a Republican primary.
BROWN: And, Sara, in this press release Trump put out yesterday, he mentioned a poll from the Center for Security Policy from Frank Gaffney basically saying those polled, something like 25 percent of American Muslims would want to commit jihad or think that violence is justified. What more do we know about this poll and the Center for Security Policy?
MURRAY: Well, basically we know this is a poll that wouldn't rise to CNN standards. The Center for Security Policy has been sort of known for putting forward a lot of conspiracy theories and it's not surprising that this is one of the institutes that Donald Trump would turn to. He doesn't hold himself to the same kind of polling standards as CNN holds itself to. And again, you sort of get this sense, you see that Donald Trump is kind of trying to paint all Muslims with the same brush.
All Muslims with the idea that these people want to do harm to America. And I think that is kind of what you see in this policy. It doesn't differentiate between radical Islamic terrorists and Islam in general. And I think that's the reason that you're seeing this harsh pushback.
BROWN: And you see other polls, Pew Research saying, that a majority of Muslims around the world condemn violence.
Sara Murray, thank you so much. Appreciate it. And still to come, Donald Trump may be getting heat for his call to
ban Muslims from coming into the U.S. but his supporters are embracing the idea in a big way. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:15:01] BROWN: And still to come, Donald Trump may be getting heat for his call to ban Muslims from the U.S., but his supporters are embracing the idea in a big way.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Trump is igniting another political firestorm, this time for proposing a ban on all Muslims traveling to the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (via telephone): I have no doubt that we have no choice but to do exactly what I said until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell exactly is going on, because we have a problem in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, Trump is getting blasted with criticism from both sides of the aisle. On Twitter, Hillary Clinton calls Trump's idea reprehensible. While Jeb Bush accuses rival of being, quote, "unhinged".
But Trump supporters though, they're all in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump is now saying Muslims should not be allowed to enter this country until the U.S. figures out what's going on.
[09:20:01] Do you agree with that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do.
KAYE: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want them here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's a very prudent idea. And I think he's done very due diligence when he makes that statement. We have to protect our American citizens first and the vetting process and the whole program lacks integrity.
KAYE: Are you in favor of bombing terrorist homes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely, absolutely. People will continue to reproduce and they will raise children in their beliefs. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody just needs to go in there and take
control of this. I just think it is going rampant and I'm worried about America. I'm worried about our safety. They are getting in. They need to be stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, clearly this idea resonating with Trump supporters.
Joining me now, national spokesperson for the Trump campaign, Katrina Pierson.
Thank you so much for being here, Katrina.
KATRINA PIERSON, NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON FOR THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
BROWN: I first want to talk about this flurry of criticism that has come out and get your response. There's been no shortage of that criticism against Trump's plan as we just heard from candidates on both sides of the aisle. Many are saying that this idea is un- American and offensive.
Your thoughts?
PIERSON: Well, I don't think it's un-American or offensive it. I mean, it just goes to show you the difference between politically correct career politicians and a wartime commander. The people that you interviewed are very concerned and I think it's appalling that people are shocked that there is somebody that actually wants to put the safety of Americans first. And it's not against our values. I mean, when in United States history have we ever allowed insurgents into the country during wartime? The answer is never.
Mr. Trump is only talking about immigration. He said that at the topic of the press statement. He said it again on FOX News last night, "Good Morning America" this morning. This is just people that are coming into this country who are not citizens and we have legislation right now being discussed to do just that, with regards to the visa waiver system or refugee. So, this is nothing new.
BROWN: You are painting a broad brush there, Katrina, saying that all Muslims who come into the U.S. are insurgents. A majority of Muslims condemn this kind of violence. And, what about the First Amendment freedom of religion, doesn't this violate that?
PIERSON: I'm very glad you asked that question, because we're not saying all Muslims are insurgents. What we're doing is we're listening to the intelligence coming out of the U.S. government. When you have FBI Director Comey saying that there is no vetting process for refugees, when we have ISIS saying that they have 4,000 infiltrators in the refugee system, when we have the chairman of the homeland security telling us that the National Counterterrorism Center has identified those people inside the refugees program.
And no, the Constitution does not apply to foreign nationals and we do have freedom of religion in this country. But I have to tell you, if your freedom of religion includes persecuting people of other religions, we have to draw a line.
BROWN: But this is a country that's founded by immigrants, freedom of religion goes to the very sort of framework of this country. And this ban is for all Muslims, according to Trump. Not just insurgents. Not just those with this jihadist ideology.
PIERSON: Well, the beauty about this country and it's being founded by immigrants and the immigrants that are coming to this country, they value freedom. And that means they value the Constitution, the freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the freedom of property, prosperity and the freedom of religion.
These insurgents don't want that for this country. We are talking about the people that are trying to come here to destroy that idea, to get rid of that concept. And it's not all Muslims, and it's temporary. These are the exact same measures that are being discussed in Congress, whether it's to pause the refugee program or defund it until we can figure out if they've been infiltrated or if we can even figure out if the refugees have been infiltrated by ISIS or how about we just resettle them in the Middle East? It's far cheaper to resettle 12 there than it is to do one here. So, why are we insisting on bringing 10,000 that we know now through United States intelligence have been infiltrated?
BROWN: All right. OK. Katrina, I want you to take a look at this cover. This is from "The Philly Daily News". I'm sure that you have seen this. It shows Trump holding his hand up in the air. Obviously a gesture that looks like a Nazi salute, as though he's Hitler. Criticism has been nearly universal among his GOP rivals.
Are his critics right though, saying that Trump is simply playing on people's fears right now, Katrina?
PIERSON: No. I don't think Trump is the one out there swearing to strap on a suicide vest and murder Americans. Trump is the one that's saying we should defend Americans first. He's not playing on fears. He's playing on strengths.
American values are protecting Americans first. Not anybody else and no, I'm not surprised that the media is out there trying to compare him to Hitler, that other Republicans are out there trying to compare him to Hitler. And when in United States history was it OK to politicize the Holocaust, but this is where we are today. We've reached a point in our country, are we going to continue to do more of the same? Or are we going to finally take a step back and evaluate the processes in this country and actually do something about it?
BROWN: So, what about the Muslims already in the U.S., Katrina?
[09:25:02] PIERSON: Well, this doesn't apply to them. There are 3 million in this country. And if they're not planning to kill Americans, they have nothing to worry about. But what we do know --
BROWN: What about the ones that wanted to come to the U.S. that don't want to kill Americans? You think just --
PIERSON: But what we do know is that we have 80 radicalized mosques in this country. We do know that. We do know in San Bernardino --
BROWN: What is that from? What data is that from project?
PIERSON: The clarion project has hosted a entire list about it. And that means they are receiving funding from organizations or individuals who have been radicalized. They themselves are radicalized individuals or they're hosting radicalized individuals. Now, we also know from San Bernardino that the neighbors were afraid to say something. They were multiple people going in and out of that house.
So, we can't just say there were only two involved here. We have a bigger problem in this country, and many people can choose to ignore it, but Donald Trump isn't.
BROWN: Well, there's certainly and you raise a fair point, there is concern that that perhaps people don't raise the alarm when they should. But a majority of these cases, it is people within the Muslim community that is speaking up to law enforcement, Katrina, that do help, you know, because they don't believe jihad is something that is part of their religion.
PIERSON: Well, you don't see enough of that and it didn't stop those people from dying in San Bernardino.
But let me give you another example right here in Texas. Ahmed the clock boy, this young man took a suitcase with something that looked like a clock or was a clock to school. The teacher saw something and said something. She was at risk of losing her job. The district is being sued for $15 million.
And now, you have the attorney general saying we're going to prosecute people that say something? How can you live in this backwards way of terrorism?
BROWN: Katrina Pierson, thank you very much. Interesting to hear your perspective.
PIERSON: Thanks for having me. Thank you.
BROWN: And we're going hear from an imam on the other side of the break.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
