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Trump Defies Outrage; Pig's Head Tossed at Mosque; San Bernardino Shooter Radicalized. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 08, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Candidate claims that he is not - that not heeding this call, he says, will have deadly consequences. Here he is in his words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): So you're going to have many more World Trade Centers if you don't solve it. Many, many more and probably beyond the World Trade Center.

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": I don't see the point of scaring people with the possible when the reality is, we haven't had.

TRUMP: You look at what's going on in the Middle East. They are chopping off heads. They are looking to come over to other places too and they want the jihad. It's very simple.

CUOMO: Right, but - but you're saying -

TRUMP: They want the jihad. And we -

CUOMO: You are saying - who does - what does that mean, they want the jihad?

TRUMP: And, Chris. Excuse me, Chris.

CUOMO: Well, you can't just throw out notions without any kind of checking of them. You know, this is what got you wound up on "The Philadelphia Inquirer" front page like Hitler.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, let's pull up that front page, the controversial "Philadelphia Daily News" cover. Likening Trump to Hitler. Just one small piece of the reaction here in the United States.

Still, you heard the cheers last night at the rally when Trump talked about this. He has a lot of supporters.

Just moments ago, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest lashed out saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Trump campaign for months now has had a dustbin of history-like quality to it. From the vacuous sloganeering, to the outright lies, to even the fake hair. And the fact is that what Donald Trump said yesterday disqualifies him from serving as president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: In a tirade of insults from GOP candidates, Senator Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot. And you know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The mayor of St. Petersburg just tweeting this. "I am hereby barring Donald Trump from entering St. Petersburg until we fully understand the dangerous threat posed by all Trumps."

Joining me now, Sara Murray, CNN political reporter.

And you have been on the campaign trail with him, next to him, following him, asking question after question. You know the controversies that follow him and you know how his supporters stand behind him, just like they did last night.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, I think what is amazing is that Donald Trump does really have this sort of sticky support among people who really do believe what he says. People who are fearful, mistrustful, don't understand the Muslim community. And so when he says things like this, Trump knows exactly what he's doing. He's playing into those fears and, in some cases, that hatred. And he's using it to appeal to a core base of conservatives and hopefully drive - he hopes, drive his numbers up even further in Iowa.

The amazing thing, though, is that even when you talk to Trump supporters who don't agree with everything that comes out of his mouth, they will still say that comments like this don't disqualify Trump in their eyes. They're still willing to vote for him just because his persona, what he is projecting is so much different from any other candidate running on the Republican side.

HARLOW: So you don't think that this has turned any sort of large or meaningful percentage of his base?

MURRAY: I think the interesting thing here is that we are seeing more Republican leaders than we have before come out and condemn these remarks. We've now heard Reince Priebus say he doesn't agree with the remarks.

HARLOW: Right.

MURRAY: House Speaker Paul Ryan, who has not weighed in on 2016 to this point, and the Republican chairs, in Iowa and New Hampshire, South Carolina, the first three states. The problem is these Trump supporters, the reason they like him is because he's not an establishment guy. It's because they're frustrated with their own party.

But the risk factor here, Poppy, and this is a risk factor for any Republican trying to win the Republican primary, but especially with Trump, with his rhetoric, is, you may be able to win Iowa with this rhetoric, but at what cost?

HARLOW: right.

MURRAY: Will you be able to win the Republican nomination? And can you take rhetoric like this to the broader electorate in a general election and be successful?

HARLOW: Yes, it's a huge question. We're going to talk a lot more about that and also the convention and what might happen there ahead in the next two hours. Sara, thank you very much.

I want to go to our panel now. Haider Ali Hussein Malik is with me. He's a professor at the Naval War College, still serves in the United States Navy. Darrell Scott is with me too, a Donald Trump supporter. He's also founder and senior pastor of the New Spirit Revival Center in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. Also with us, Mike Shields, former chief of staff for the RNC and president of the Congressional Leadership Fund.

Thank you very much for being here.

Hider, let me begin with you. Your thoughts when you heard this proposal from Donald Trump last night?

HAIDER ALI HUSSEIN MULLICK, PROFESSOR, THE NAVAL WAR COLLEGE: Well, thank you for having me.

Like most Americans, I was very disturbed. In my case, as somebody who wears the uniform of the United States military very proudly and has sworn to protect the Constitution, those remarks were contrary to the Constitution and I was very disturbed. But more importantly, as somebody who looks at terrorism and teaches about it to our military leaders, I was very worried that this kind of rhetoric leads to ISIS recruitment and plays into the hands of the enemy that says that we, as a country, are at war with Islam, which is not true.

[14:05:05] HARLOW: Darrell, you are a Trump supporter. I'll ask you a two-fold question, do you support him after these comments? And as a man of faith, where do you land on that when he talks about - and I'm going to read his words here, calling for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our representatives can figure out what's going on."

DARRELL SCOTT, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, first of all, I am a supporter of Mr. Trump. I make no secret of that. When I heard these words, I immediately said to myself that the word "ban" is a strong word. I favor the word moratorium a little better. And the reason is, I really believe that there has to be an improvement and a revision and an upgrade in our vetting process. The thing we have to realize is, he's not banning all Muslims, he's simply saying we need to put a moratorium on immigration. Those are the -

HARLOW: That's - that's actually not what he's saying. He didn't use the word immigration. And this would apply to tourists. This would apply to people immigrating to this country. This would - I would, you know, apply to Muslims trying to come and take jobs in this country that they're offered.

SCOTT: Well -

HARLOW: This is not just about immigration.

SCOTT: Well, the headline from his press release spoke of immigration. His policy towards immigration. You have to understand, American citizenship is not a global right. American citizenship is a privilege. No other foreigners have a right to immigrate to America. It's a privilege that has to be enjoyed after going through whatever the proper procedures are. But apparently our vetting process needs to be upgraded.

When you think about the shooters in San Bernardino, we see that they were radicalized some time ago and we see that the FBI states that they have a lot of information about them now that would have been useful then. So you ask the question, should the San Bernardino shooters have been monitored? Should they have been under some type of surveillance? Should they have been identified as potential radical elements of Islam? And if they were, it could have - if they were identified as such, it could have saved American lives. Something has to be done. Something has to be done. And oftentimes when you look to be proactive, I think caution cannot be construed as hate.

HARLOW: Haider, I -

MULLICK: That's absolutely right, pastor (ph). Yes, I agree with the pastor that we need robust intelligence, we need a vetting process.

SCOTT: Yes.

MULLICK: We need to upgrade our visa process.

SCOTT: Yes.

MULLICK: I agree with him wholeheartedly. What I don't agree with, what this implies, is that we ostracize an entire community. Sir, you know that there are thousands of American-Muslims that are part of our tapestry of this great country that have earned the privilege of the United States citizenship.

SCOTT: Yes.

MULLICK: Something that I am willing to die for to protect. You know that.

SCOTT: Yes.

MULLICK: You also know, sir, that there are American-Muslims in the United States military who are right now deployed abroad.

SCOTT: Yes.

MULLICK: When we say ban all Muslims, we are saying that those folks cannot come back. The people - the interpreters, the intelligence community assets. It is very important in a time like this -

SCOTT: But Mr. Trump - Mr. Trump was - but Mr. Trump was asked that and he - he -

MULLICK: To - to distinguish between the ones - let us distinguish between - sir, please, let me finish. We need to distinguish between the extremists and the law-abiding, patriotic American-Muslims. They're very important. You have to read Mr. Trump's official statement. I printed it out from the website.

SCOTT: I - I - I've seen the statement, but -

MULLICK: that statement specifically states -

HARLOW: We - we have it right here. We have it right -

SCOTT: But, listen, listen, listen, he has - he has further - he has further clarified his statement.

MULLICK: That he is quoting - he is quoting a - sir, he is quoting a poll and -

SCOTT: He has further clarified this statement.

HARLOW: All right, we need one voice - we need one voice at a time.

MULLICK: And I don't care about clarifications. Sir, he needs to clarify it on the website. It is very clear -

SCOTT: Well, if you don't care about clarifications, then you don't care about truth.

MULLICK: I do not care about clarifications.

HARLOW: One voice at a time.

Mike, I want to get you into this conversation.

SCOTT: If you don't care about clarification.

HARLOW: Mike. Mike.

MIKE SHIELDS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, RNC: Yes.

SCOTT: If someone makes a statement and you ask them to clarify the statement, you can't say I don't care about the clarification.

MULLICK: Those clarifications have to be on the website. Sir, they have to be on the website.

HARLOW: Darrell - all right, Mike - guys, I need one voice at a time and we have to get Mike into this conversation.

SCOTT: OK. Let's get him in.

HARLOW: Mike, thank you also for being here, sir.

SHIELDS: Sure.

HARLOW: I'd like to get your political perspective on this. What stood out to a lot of us today I think is what Senator Ted Cruz just said. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Friends here have encouraged me to criticize and attack Donald Trump. I'm not interested in doing so. But I believe we need a plan that is focused on the direct threat. And the threat we're facing is radical Islamic terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You know, it's interesting. You have Cruz, a standout here, Mike, who is unwilling and says I'm not going to put my attention on criticizing Donald Trump. This is about defeating the terrorists. Your reaction to how Cruz has handled this?

SHIELDS: Well, look, I think in general I'm pretty proud of my party today because if you look at what the - all the other candidates are saying, what the leader of the party, Reince Priebus, has been saying, what the speaker of the House has said, they've come out and denounce this. They know this isn't a - this is -

HARLOW: Right, but that's not what Ted Cruz is doing. So I'm asking you about him specifically, that he stands out.

SHIELDS: Well, but what I'm saying, the majority - but the majority of the people in our party, look, are denouncing this. They're saying, this is not our values. I really think, first of all, we're blessed to have a great chairman of the party right now with Reince Priebus being there.

[14:10:05] HARLOW: But your two frontrunners - the two front - the two frontrunners aren't, right? You've got Donald Trump and then right behind him Ted Cruz.

SHIELDS: Right, but what - but, look, here - here's the real issue here. When you have a president of the United States that won't lead and creates a vacuum, then something's going to fill that vacuum that you may not like. And so the real issue here is, we've got to get some leadership in the White House. And I put this at the feet of, first of all, President Obama. The country is dying for someone to show leadership. They're worried. This is not the right answer. This is not the approach that we should have. I think most of the leaders in our party, starting with the speaker of the House, have said this is not with our values. This isn't the Republican Party's platform. If you go and read the growth in opportunity report that the RNC put out in 2013, this is completely counter to that. But this is what's going to happen. You're going to have someone try and fill the vacuum with something like this when the president of the United States isn't leading. So, first of all, let's lay this at the president's feet.

HARLOW: You're saying this is because of President Obama, that he drove Donald Trump to say - to say this?

SHIELDS: What I'm saying is, there is a market for someone to fill a vacuum to say things that are on the edge when the president of the United States is not leading and not showing the country that we have a path to defeat this. There's a reasonable way to do this and there's a lot of candidates running for president right now who are putting forth reasonable answers to this. But when the White House isn't leading -

HARLOW: What does the - what does the RNC do in your opinion? I mean you were a leader in the party. What do you do at this point?

SHIELDS: Well, look, this is - this is where I think we really benefit from having the leadership and experience of a three-time elected party chairman. I think he's handled this exactly the right way. He's the referee during this, so he's not going to get involved. However, when someone goes way over the line, he's going to step up and say, this is out of bounds, which Reince did, and I think that was exactly the right thing to do. But in the meantime, he's letting the other leaders in the party step forth and say this while he's being a good actor. They stay in touch with the Trump campaign and make sure that they're being fair actors when it comes to putting on a primary and putting on debates. But when someone goes over the line and says something that's counter to the platform, counter to our values, counter to the growth and opportunity report. I think Reince did the right thing by saying that this was not the right way to go.

HARLOW: So let's - let's listen to another Republican. I want to play what Dick Cheney said in reaction to these comments last night on Hugh Hewett's radio show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think this whole notion that somehow we can just say, no more Muslims, just ban a whole religion, goes against everything we stand for and believe in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Darrell, to you.

SHIELDS: Yes, I mean, this is why - this is why I tell you this is sort of - there's a part of me that's proud of my party today because when confronted with something that is against our values, you've had senior leaders in the party step up and say, this is out of bounds. And I think that the majority of Republicans do believe this is out of bounds. And you're going to see that play out.

I actually don't think this is an effective strategy to actually win the nomination. I don't think insulting women, insulting minorities, insulting people's religion, insulting veterans, all of those are things that are good for a news cycle and they sort of - they're bombastic. But I think over time the Republican primary voters are going to step up and have something to say about this and you're hearing -

HARLOW: Well, and this isn't just about a - this isn't just about a primary, right? This is about eventually a general election as well on the path to the presidency.

Darrell, to you, and also, Haider, weigh in on this after. You heard what Dick Cheney said. That is actually aligning people like Dick Cheney with a Hillary Clinton, with a Bernie Sanders.

SCOTT: Well, I mean -

MULLICK: Yes, too, what I want to say is that - I'm sorry, go ahead.

SCOTT: No, you go, then I'll go.

MULLICK: What I want to say -

SCOTT: I don't want to be accused of being insensitive.

MULLICK: No, no, no, you go ahead, pastor. You will never be accused of -

HARLOW: Darrell - Darrell, you go ahead and then Haider.

SCOTT: Listen, we are all in agreement -

MULLICK: Go ahead. Go ahead.

SCOTT: We're all in agreement about one thing, something needs to be done. This problem has to be dealt with. It is a potential threat to American lives. I was talking to someone on last night and they brought out the fact that when the Ebola virus threatened American lives, we immediately shut down immigration from the areas that the Ebola virus was active in and we identified those who were potentially exposed to it and who had been infected with it. And until we were able to isolate this problem and formulate a strategy to deal with it, we closed our borders.

Now, are the borders still closed. No.

MULLICK: Sir, now you're - sir, now you're calling - now you're calling Islam a disease.

SCOTT: No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm not called Islam - I'm calling -

MULLICK: Oh, come on, pastor. Just because I asked you to go ahead of me, I expected you to make more sense.

SCOTT: I'm calling terrorism a disease. You're trying to put words in my mouth. I'm calling terrorism a disease. I'm calling - that it's a threat to American lives. And when we identify what the threat to American lives is, we have to try to contain it to prevent it because no Americans - no Americans are expendable.

MULLICK: I'm with you. I'm with you. I want to stop every single terrorist. I want to stop every single terrorist. I'm with you.

SCOTT: We can't (INAUDIBLE) - we can't say - may I talk, sir, please?

HARLOW: Haider, go ahead.

SCOTT: May I talk? We can't say that those 14 people that were killed in San Bernardino we simply collateral damage. Those are lives. Those are American lives.

MULLICK: They were not. They were not.

SCOTT: We don't want a repeat of it. We don't want -

MULLICK: That was an act of terrorism. I agree with you. Now let me make - let me make my point.

SCOTT: Well, we don't want another. We do not want another.

HARLOW: Darrell, Darrell, I've got to get a last point in here to Haider.

MULLICK: I just want to say this also goes beyond American values. This goes into American national security. We have Muslim-Americans that are interpreters, part of our intelligence community, they are law enforcement, they're gathering very critical information to stop future terrorist attacks. They are fighting our war.

[14:15:09] SCOTT: We've been hearing that for years. We've been hearing that for years.

MULLICK: We have - we have Muslim allies, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis, UAE, they are helping us with airstrikes, human intelligence.

SCOTT: And it's not working.

MULLICK: You don't just have to hear about it. That is the truth. And - and - and they've been doing it for years.

SCOTT: If I don't hear about it, I can't know about it.

MULLICK: So - it is right here, sir. All you have to do is read a newspaper once in a while.

SCOTT: But you just said we don't hear about it. How can it be in the newspaper if we don't hear about it?

MULLICK: What I'm trying to say is that it's very - it's very important - it's very important that we stick with our values and - and value our national security.

SCOTT: Right. I - we're on the same side.

HARLOW: Darrell, Haider, Mike, appreciate the conversation. We could go a lot longer. And we will. Not right now. Thank you very much.

SCOTT: Thank you. God bless you.

MULLICK: Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up next, Donald Trump keeps referencing a poll that is widely seen as just not legitimate. We're going to talk to you about what the poll comes from, who is behind it. We'll talk about that, next.

Also breaking details about the killer couple in those tragic San Bernardino attacks. We're now learning when they were radicalized. My next guest has noticed something very chilling about the shooters' wardrobe - the female shooter's wardrobe in particular. She'll tell us about that.

And also, a pig's head thrown at a mosque in Philadelphia. The FBI is now involved over concerns of a hate crime. The latest on that. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:51] HARLOW: Breaking news out of Philadelphia. The FBI is investigating an incident of a pig's head being thrown at a mosque. I want to take a close look. Take a look at this with me. This is surveillance footage. There you see is right there. That - what they threw is a pig's head. It shows that - that truck driving slowly, tossing it out of the passenger's side window. The mosque's caretaker discovered the pig's head when he came to work this morning. A lot of questions here, why a pig's head? Pigs are considered unclean in the Muslim faith and are not eaten by practicing Muslims. You know they don't eat pork.

Let's bring in CNN's Boris Sanchez following this story.

What are you learning? Any idea who did this? Why?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No idea exactly why. It's being investigated as a possible hate crime. The FBI obviously taking a close look at that video. Unfortunately it's too dark to see who might have been driving the car, who might have been the passenger that tossed it out of the car. The video actually shows a pickup passing by the mosque shortly before something was tossed from the car. Then it passes by again and that's when something was thrown from it.

It is worth noting, I spoke to someone at the mosque who told me that a month ago, right after the Paris attacks, they received a threatening voice mail. That voice mail has been passed along to the FBI and local authorities. The mosque says they're complying with them, hoping to get to the bottom of what happened yesterday.

HARLOW: When you look at what the - I can't imagine how upset and hurt the people of the mosque are. What are they saying in response?

SANCHEZ: They're actually being defiant. I asked one of the spokespeople at the mosque if they were scared. He told me, no, absolutely not. This is our community and nothing is going to happen to us. He says they're in a very tolerant, very diverse part of Philadelphia and that they refuse to be intimidated. So obviously this isn't something that has shaken them. He says that nothing like that had happened before. They had received phone calls previously, other threatening phone calls of other instances, but nothing like a pig's head being thrown at the walls of the mosque.

HARLOW: Sure. And, again, it's being investigated, the FBI involved, as a hate crime.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely.

HARLOW: All right, Boris, thank you very much.

Much more on that as we get it.

Next, new details emerge about the radicalization of the killer couple in San Bernardino. Was the wife radicalized abroad? My next guest spent time at the school in Pakistan that she attended. It's a school that is now under scrutiny. You'll hear from her live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:17] HARLOW: New details are emerging about the radicalization of the California terror killers. The FBI has revealed that both were radicalized for, quote, "some time," and sources tell us here at CNN that they believe the wife had been radicalized at least two years ago. We know both spent time practicing shooting at various southern California gun ranges and investigators say that the female shooter received rifle training.

Investigators also keenly focused on her conversion. Where it happened, how it happened, who were the teachers. We do know from investigators that she declared allegiance to the Islamic State on FaceBook ahead of the San Bernardino attacks.

Let's talk more about her specifically with Asra Nomani. She is the co-founder of the Muslim Reform Movement. She's also the author of the book "Standing Alone: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam."

Thank you very much for joining me.

ASRA NOMANI, CO-FOUNDER, MUSLIM REFORM MOVEMENT: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: You spent time in some of these study circles of women's groups in Pakistan, where she did as well, and you strongly believe that that is where the female shooter was radicalized. What did you see? What leads you to that?

NOMANI: Well, Poppy, I'm a child of India and many of my family moved to Pakistan after the creation of the country of the Muslim state. And what I saw from the 1980s to 2001, when I went there the last time, was this Islamization. It's this new stricter rules. And when I arrived in - after the September 11th attacks, I went to these study circles of Al-Huda, this organization that Tashfeen, the wife in California, belonged to. And what I heard and saw there was just so upsetting, Poppy. It was so far from the Islam that my parents had taught me. Hour after hour there were - there were protests against the Jews, against the west, against the Christians. It was so - there was so much hate in those hours of so-called religious teaching that I literally got on a plane in Islamabad to get out of town and go to Karachi. I couldn't take it anymore.

HARLOW: I want to read a statement that we did get from Al-Huda, this school, just to be clear here. They write, "Al-Huda International Welfare Foundation is a non-political, non-sectarian and non-profit organization which does not have any links to any extremist regime. The organization stands to promote a peaceful message of Islam and denounce extremism, violence and acts of terrorism."

You have said that you were extremely struck by this picture. We can pull it up and talk about it. This picture of what the female shooter was wearing. That's the man, but let's talk about the woman as well. What struck you?

[14:30:01] NOMANI: Well, you know, Al-Huda says this and it's a really important statement, but what we don't understand in this statement too is that radicalization is like a conveyer belt. This is how it occurs.