Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Outrage Among Many Over Donald Trump's Call for Temporary Ban on Muslims Entering the United States. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 08, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: What about you? You know, you are a former FBI counterterrorism. The latest number that we got yesterday, our Barbara Starr at the Pentagon reporting this number, that coalition airstrikes have killed more than 23,000 ISIS fighters since the war began. Can you help us put that in context with your number and just in terms of new recruits and replenishing the force?

ALI SOUFAN, FORMER MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM FORCE: Well, definitely they have a lot of people gone. And again, let me just comment on the 30,000 number that we came up with. Those people are not all ISIS. So they are ISIS, they are al-Qaeda, they are Nusra, they are Khorasan, they are (INAUDIBLE), their own groups like the Chechen groups or the Islamic caucuses. They are sending all their people from central Asia, from the north caucuses to Syria. Why? Because there's a big vacuum in Syria. They can train. They can become, you know, experienced in battle. And then maybe they will go back and do their fight back home.

So I don't know about the numbers of the 23,000 where it's coming from. And I don't know how we know for sure that all these individuals are ISIS versus people who are killed because of airstrikes by us.

HARLOW: What about Russia? There's an interesting note about fighters being recruited or going from Russia.

SOUFAN: Right. Well, that's very interesting. I mean, the number went up literally 300 percent. And if you look at it, and you see this and you see Russians actions now in Syria. Putin's action in Syria. Yes, Putin is there to support Assad. We know that 100 percent.

But also I think Putin has more internal national security reasons for his involvement in Syria. When you see just from Russia alone about 2400 Chechens who made the trip to Syria. And you know Russia wants two Chechens more, not one. You can see the same in Dagestan, in Kazakhstan, (INAUDIBLE). You have a few hundred fighters.

So the situation is very dangerous for them especially for all these countries in Central Asia. You look at it from different perspective. All these people are going there not necessary for the interest of fighting Assad, but they are trying to train all these fighters because maybe they would use them back. Again, if you remember after the Afghan jihad. We had a problem with the returnees from Afghanistan. Even here in the United States, we have terrorists attacks conducted, terrorist attack actually conducted or plotted by people who actually went and traveled to Afghanistan during the soviet jihad. And that's why it's extremely important also to point out that people now also are coming back. Because the pressure that ISIS and other groups under in both Syria and Iraq. They are trying to comeback.

We found out between 20 to 30 percent average is between 20 to 30 percent in western countries foreign fighters are returning. And we need to figure out why they are returning, what did they do when they were in Syria and are they trying to carry out another Paris attack in whatever country they are going to?

HARLOW: They are stunning numbers. A new report out.

Ali Soufan, thank you very much. I appreciate it very much.

SOUFAN: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Next, back to politics. The fallout from Donald Trump's calls to ban Muslims from coming into the United States. I will be joined live by a Trump supporter who stands behind her candidate. A conservative who thinks he's bad for the party and an author who says Trump is pushing a dangerous form of Islamophobia.

Stay with me for that debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:37:56] HARLOW: Outrage among many sparked by Donald Trump's comments and calls to put a temporary ban on Muslims entering the United States. We are hearing it from a number of politicians.

Hillary Clinton tweeting this is reprehensible, prejudice and divisive. Donald Trump you don't get it. This makes us less safe.

The White House weighed in with this from spokesman Josh Ernest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Trump campaign for months has had a history like quality to it from the slogans to the outright lies to even the fake hair. And the fact is that what Donald Trump said yesterday disqualifies him from serving as president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: GOP candidate Jeb Bush used the term blow hard on the campaign trail a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we shouldn't do is just, you know, say all Muslims aren't coming into our country. You got to find the proper balance of believing in American values and being serious and real about keeping us safe. It's not about the blow hards out there just saying stuff. That's not a program. That's not a plan. This is serious business. And we shouldn't along the way do exactly what these radical Islamic terrorists want. They want us to marginalized Muslims so that they move in their direction rather than in our direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: There's a lot to discuss here. Joining me now is Scottie Hughes, chief political correspondent with "USA Radio Network." She is also a columnist for WesternJournalism.com and a Trump surrogate. Kurt Schlichter is with me, a conservative commentator and columnist who wrote an article titled "you are a fool if you're supporting Donald Trump." And Arun Kundnani who wrote a book, "The Muslims are coming, Islamaphobia extremism and the domestic war on terror."

Thank you all for being here.

Kurt, let me begin with you. Did Donald Trump hurt the party? Did he make it harder for a Republican to win the general in 2016?

KURT SCHLICHTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR AND COLUMNIST: Well, I'm not really sure if he made it harder for Republicans to win. Certainly he is saying fool you shall things, as usual. But you know they are like those foolish things they are not unlike the foolish things to people he is used to support. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton had been saying. I got to give this to Trump. At least when he was talking about was taking away a privilege from foreigners while you have Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama talking about taking right away from American citizens. I think he is just going along with the same kind of elitist attitude that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have been showing. I don't see much of a difference there.

HARLOW: Are you OK with what he says?

SCHLICHTER: Am I OK with what he says? No. I think it's ridiculous. Look. I served with Muslims over in Kosovo. Loyal people who served with us, who protected us and worked with us to denigrate an entire group based on the activities of a significant portion of that group. And let's face it there are a significant number of Muslims who believe in this radical Islamic nonsense is just foolish. We need to take people by individuals. We need to allow people into America who benefit America and many of those are going to be Muslims.

HARLOW: Scottie, I would like to show -- have you take a look and I know you are shaking your head, I want you to respond. I also want to show you this cover, the cover of the "Philadelphia Daily News" today the newspaper, right. It said, the furor, the new furor. This is your pick for president. You're a Trump surrogate. This paper is making a clear comparison there. Your thoughts?

SCOTTIE HUGHES, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, USA RADIO NETWORK: Well, my thoughts is any time somebody like the Philadelphia paper does that, you have to understand Trump's face can (INAUDIBLE) see the media as the enemy. That you have your own agenda. So therefore, when they do that they actually just re-enforce that idea that the media is never going to go for a conservative candidate.

Now, to what Kurt just said, in response I would say, you know what, way to go Mr. Trump. You are right. This is all about immigrants. This is about protecting U.S. citizens regardless of the faith including Muslims against those on the outside that are not U.S. citizens that want to come in here and harm us.

And while you want to say this is a very small number, which it is, at the same time there are over 35 people that have been killed since 2011 in the name of Allah as (INAUDIBLE) extremist here in the United States. And the numbers continue to grow. And our current leadership, Republican and Democrat have offered no solutions to stop this it from continuing.

HARLOW: So Arun, I want you to respond to what Scottie just said. Because she said, look, we got to protect American citizens. And as we know, there are millions and millions of American citizen who are Muslims. And you wrote an entire book about this. And thinking about the rally last night in South Carolina, there were many people cheering before he even finished his sentence. It's clear the support Donald Trump has from some behind this. I wonder what you think it does to American citizens who are Muslims if you did have a ban on anyone of their faith coming into this country.

ARUN KUNDNANI, AUTHOR, THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING: Well, I think, you know, what Trump is doing with his comments yesterday is making explicit in rhetoric what is already implicit in policy terms, right. So we already have had a situation since 9/11 where thousands of Muslims were rounded up and deported simply because they were Muslim. We already have had a situation where mosques are being spied on simply because they are mosque. We are already have a situation where we have politicians saying we won't allow Syrians to come in and claim refugee status simply because they are Syrian.

So, you know, we already are in this situation. What Trump is a symptom of a wider fiscal culture of Islamaphobia? And you know, the rhetoric that he is coming out with yesterday. You know, it makes -- it does have effects, right. So today, you know, people are saying today Trump is brave for speaking out. To me, the people are great, you know, the Muslim woman who was riding on the subway this morning worried about over the suspicion looks she's getting or the Muslim cab driver who is worried he's going to have an aggressive passenger attack him. People trying to go on with their everyday lives in the face of hostility. That's bravery.

HUGHES: Really?

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Hold on.

Scottie, let me get Kurt and then you.

SCHLICHTER: OK. Arun, let's be real here. And for God's sake, I can't believe that I have to stand up - I'm not standing for Donald Trump. I'm standing up for common sense. A large number of Muslims believe in this Islamic radicalism nonsense. This vicious, bloody ideology. Muslims have to take the lead in curing this disease.

HARLOW: Wait, let's be clear. We have to be careful when we say a large number of any group. What number --?

SCHLICHTER: But it is a large number. It's not one or two guys.

HARLOW: How many or what number you are talking about? If you are going to put that out there, please give us what number you're going to talk about and the sourcing on it.

[15:45:05] SCHLICHTER: Studies and polls have shown --

HARLOW: Which studies? Which poll?

SCHLICHTER: You want me to Google it right now.

KUNDNANI: This is part of the problem. We have a situation --

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLICHTER: It's ridiculous to assume that every single Muslim is a friend and a lover of western freedom. It's just not so. Now again, I served with Muslims who believe in freedom, who believe in liberty, who don't believe in this sick, twisted ideology. But we have to be realistic. Some of them do. And it's ridiculous to say that every single Muslim is innocent and every single Muslim is good.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Scottie, jump in here.

HUGHES: I want to talk about this whole idea of the brave woman on the subway. You know what brave is? Brave is calling out one of the own snakes in your grass that is literally demonizing an entire stereotype of your religion. Brave would be her going to the FBI and saying, you know what, I think my neighbor might be suspicious. And bravery once they turned them in that instead of if they were wrong suing them, turn around and suing them for $15 million like we are finding out with the bomber. Now, we said, you know what? You might have been but thank you for trying to keep Americans safe. That's brave to me. Something that we're not encouraging.

That's why we're having this it problem because the Muslim community will not communicate with the rest of America to say, listen, we are good. All you hear is these select few and then you hear the care suing the FBI in 2011.

(CROSSTALK)

HUGHES: You don't hear the Muslims.

KUNDNANI: You haven't been paying attention at all.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: I want to get Arun. KUNDNANI: Right. So firstly, you know, simply not true. Every

Muslim organization in America has condemned terrorism.

HUGHES: That is a lie, Arun.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: One voice. Arun, then you guys can move on.

KUNDNANI: This is very revealing. I've simply pointed out that America has a problem of Islamaphobia. And the vitriol --.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLICHTER: There's no anger. This is a discussion.

HUGHES: There's a reason why.

KUNDNANI: You are demonstrating my point very effectively, right. And if, you know, you want to talk about extremism and terrorism, you haven't been paying attention. You simply haven't been paying attention.

HUGHES: I was paying attention last week when 14 were killed. Christians and Jews were targeted.

KUNDNANI: Let me finish my point.

HARLOW: Everyone, wait. We're not helping anyone if no one can hear you. Arun, please finish your point. Scottie and Kurt, you can talk then.

KUNDNANI: So let's look at the trends of terrorism in the United States right now. Firstly, we know that since 9/11, far more people have died in far right wing terrorist attacks than in terrorism carried out by Muslims.

HUGHES: Bull, show your point.

KUNDNANI: Second point, let's look at Muslim terrorism, right. The main trend that we are seeing is Muslims terrorism is Muslims are no longer focusing on planes when they commit acts of terrorism. They are carrying out mass shootings. So in other words, Muslim terrorists are becoming more like Americans, right. They are integrating into American gun culture and they are becoming more like you, Scottie. You're a gun lover. So now, we have a situation where if you want to solve this problem, we can solve two problems at the same time. Let's deal with our gun problem and we solve the Muslim terrorism problem at the same time.

HARLOW: Your response quickly then Kurt. I have one minute total.

HUGHES: Talk about (INAUDIBLE). You want to start with the gun problem. If every person in that room in California had a gun on their ankle, I guarantee they would not have been dead at this point. That's a gun problem. You have spun that so much. Congratulations, those are very false lying talking points that the Muslim community -- this is why we don't trust Muslims in this country because they lie like you just did.

SCHLICHTER: Well, you know, Scottie, I do trust Muslims. I trust the ones I work with. I trust the ones I serve with. Now, Arun, I don't need to be lectured when I spent two deployments protecting Muslims giving years of my life and risking it to protect Muslims. So don't start telling me I'm Islamaphobic. But the truth is the truth. And there's a cancer in the Muslim community. And the first responders have to be other Muslims.

HARLOW: Scottie, as I wrap up, you just grouped all Muslims in America into one.

HUGHES: That's the reason why there's a distrust of the Muslim community. I say I did. So that's the reason why people distrust them.

HARLOW: That's not what you said. You said that's why they are like that.

HUGHES: They are why they are distrusted. That's why we distrust them. If they would be more open, open up your mosques, let us go in and let's see what you're teaching these folks. The Boston bomber situation, we found afterwards that there were tale signs those brothers were planning to do something. We are finding out the mother who lived in this apartment who where these bombs are being built, she had no clue. Her father is a relative.

Listen. These folks know they are going out and the Muslims are not turning their own cancer within their own community. That's right there. You want to actually help your community, turn in the bad ones.

HARLOW: Scottie Hughes, Kurt Schlichter, Arun Kundnani, it is an important conversation to have. I'm glad we are having it. Thank you all three. We'll have you back soon. Appreciate it.

Quick break, we're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:06] HARLOW: Spike Lee weighing today in on the Donald Trump controversy. Just sitting down for an interview with our very own Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPIKE LEE, FILM DIRECTOR: We're talking about the highest office in the United States of America. This is not a TV show. This is someone who has - the president has the guy next to him who got that box. I've seen that box.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're talking about the nuclear codes. LEE: Yes. I have seen the box. I had a fundraiser for the

president. I saw the box. That's scary. I don't want Trump near the box. Nowhere near him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Spike Lee there with Christiane Amanpour.

Up next, Ben Carson will respond to Donald Trump's call to ban Muslims coming into this country. Temporarily Jake Tapper will have that for you in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)