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Killers Radicalized Before Dating; Male Shooter Took Out Loan; ISIS Not Contained; Baltimore Cop Takes Stand; Trump Threatens 3rd Party Run. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 09, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:41] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow, in today for my friend Brooke Baldwin.

We begin with new details about the San Bernardino killers and their path to jihad. The head of the FBI just saying today, these two were radicalized before they met, before they even started dating online. And at a hearing this morning, FBI Director James Comey also told senators he believes that the wife was radicalized before she came to the United States. He says investigators are looking at the couple's marriage license right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Is there any evidence that this marriage was arranged by a terrorist organization or terrorist operative? Or was it just a meeting on the Internet?

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I don't know the answer to that yet.

GRAHAM: Do you agree with me that if it was arranged by a terrorist operative or organization, that is a game-changer?

COMEY: It would be a very, very important thing to know. That's why we're working so hard to understand it.

GRAHAM: Well, that's the biggest focus I think of how it would change the game, that they could actually arrange a marriage of two like- minded individuals, use the fiance visa system to get into the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: This as officials tell CNN the male shooter was planning an attack on a different location with someone else, a different partner, back in 2012. CNN's Ana Cabrera is joining me now from San Bernardino, California. But first, CNN justice reporter Evan Perez.

Evan, what stands out to me so much is that no one in law enforcement, on a local or federal level, saw one red flag on this couple. Now, in a week's time, the investigators have learned all of this new information about their path to radicalization, especially, you know, since the attack, but with no hard drives to work off, per se, they were discarded, and smashed cell phones. So how'd they do it?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, there's a lot of information that the NSA, that other intelligence agencies are able to collect. The problem with that is, it's very difficult to flag this stuff in real time. You have to go back after something like this, after something goes boom, that you go back and you go see what - what was in the collection that intelligence agencies have. And we know the NSA collects a lot of - a lot of personal communications overseas. And so that's one way that these people would have been able to be - to be flagged at least. But again, you'd have to know what you're looking for.

HARLOW: Right.

PEREZ: And it's clear now, Poppy, from what the FBI director said, that going back to at least 2013, when he is online chatting with his future wife, that he's talking about jihad, according to the FBI director. These are things that obviously would be a big marker, big flag that the FBI would love to follow up on. Again, it's free speech, right? You can talk about jihad. It's when you decide to take - take action on that.

HARLOW: Right.

PEREZ: But it's certainly something that gives the FBI impetus to take a deeper look. And now we know, as you pointed out, that their - that in 2012 he was already thinking and plotting - thinking about a possible attack.

HARLOW: So - yes. So let's talk about that, right, because this just came out from your reporting and Pamela Brown's reporting that in 2012 they think he was plotting an attack somewhere with someone else. What do we know about why that was never executed?

PEREZ: Well, just about that time, the FBI arrested four people. There were actually five people in all but there were four that were arrested who were plotting or thinking about trying to travel overseas to fight - to fight overseas with terrorist groups. And keep in mind, again, we're talking about 2012. Back then, it was pre-ISIS, right? So they were trying to travel overseas to join al Qaeda and they were arrested. They were planning to travel across to Mexico - across the border to Mexico and they were stopped before that happened. Again, this has happened right there in the inland empire outside of Los Angeles. And that apparently is what we - from talking to sources, we believe is what spooked Farook and his - and his co-plotter.

And we don't know how far this plot really got, if this was something that they were just ruminating on. We also don't know what the possible target was. But it does really help give the FBI a sense that this radicalization happened much earlier than first thought, Poppy.

HARLOW: And even now it appears before they even met.

PEREZ: Yes.

HARLOW: Evan, thank you. And to - Ana, to you. The investigators are looking at everything,

right, but they're really honing in on the bank account, the male shooter's bank account. He got this big loan, more than $28,000, in November, right before the attack. They're saying they don't think it appears he used that money in this attack, though, right?

[14:05:06] ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct. We're told from law enforcement sources that they have accounted for all of that money. They believe half of it actually was doled out to Farook's mother in the weeks before the shooting. You'll recall that the mother lived with Farook and his wife in that same town home in the days, weeks, months leading up to the shooting. So there's still big questions about what she may have known, if anything, about this plot.

They've also said that some of that money went to household items. They don't believe that the money went to finance the terror attack. It's believed that the weapons, the arsenal, the ammunition that they had purchased all came before that loan was taken out.

Also important to note that, at this point, according to law enforcement officials who have told CNN that it does not appear that there are any indications that there is somebody outside, a terror network or an individual, who intentionally may have given money to Farook and Malik in order to finance the terror plot. But, as you mentioned, that the finances are still something they're digging into, so they haven't drawn any conclusions just yet.

HARLOW: But they are looking very closely at a former neighbor, right? A former neighbor of the male shooter. A man named Enrique Marquez. Why are they so interested in him still?

CABRERA: Well, he, again, is the person who they've now tracked a couple of the weapons to. He purchased two AR-15s that were used in the attack. What we've learned about Enrique Marquez is he used to be the next-door neighbor to the Farook family. And, in fact, we were out in that neighborhood yesterday talking with neighbors who say that they did see Farook and Marquez at time working together on cars in Farook's family garage.

Now, Marquez apparently has been talking to investigators, even though he initially checked himself into a mental health facility following the attack. What we're told is that he purchased those two AR-15s back in 2011 and 2012. He tells investigators that he apparently gave those weapons or sold those weapons to Farook shortly after he purchased them, but he never reported the ownership transfer, which would be against the law here in California.

HARLOW: Sure.

CABRERA: But at this point, he is not facing any charges, and law enforcement officials say he's been cooperative. They do not believe at this time that he was involved directly in the terror plot here at the facility behind me, Poppy.

HARLOW: OK, got it. Ana Cabrera, thank you so much for the reporting on the ground there in San Bernardino. To Evan Perez as well, working his law enforcement sources.

Also to this top story today, the reality is we are at war, a quote, those words from the top man at the Pentagon as he took the hot seat on Capitol Hill for the first time since the San Bernardino shooting rampage. Defense Secretary Ash Carter defending President Obama's ISIS strategy in front of senators, also offering a new option to help fight that war. For the first time Carter says the United States is ready to deploy advisers on the ground and Apache gunships to help Iraqis retake the key city of Ramadi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH CARTER, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The reality is, we're at war. That's how our troops feel about it, because they're taking the fight to ISIL every day, applying the might of the finest fighting force the world has ever known. We want this expeditionary targeting force to make ISIL and its leaders wonder when they go to bed at night who's going to be coming in the window.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: In a major revelation, the defense secretary said this morning, ISIS is not contained. That directly contradicts what President Obama said in an interview last month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: From the start, our goal has been first to contain, and we have contained them. They have not gained ground in Iraq. And in Syria, it - they'll come in, they'll leave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: General Dunford, we have not - we have not contained ISIL. Mr. Secretary, do you agree with General Dunford?

ASH CARTER, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I agree with what General Dunford said, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining me now to discuss, CNN military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

General, talk to me about the divide here. Where is the divide when you have the top man at the Pentagon saying one thing, the president saying other. Is it an intelligence divide or is it an improvement in intelligence in the last three weeks?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think it is a semantics divide, truthfully, Poppy.

HARLOW: OK. HERTLING: When the president was - when the president was speaking, I think it was on ABC, he was talking about containing ISIS in Syria and Iraq. I think his words were parsed in Congress and especially on the committee that was investigating. They talk about ISIS as a generalized body throughout the world as new organizations or old terror organizations are taking on the mantle of ISIS.

I don't want to get into that argument. The fact of the matter is, that there has been some progress in Iraq and Syria. We see, across the board, in northern Iraq, ISIS' supply lines being cut. They can no longer move with the mobility that they had before. They are taking a pounding in Raqqa and in and around Raqqa. They are changing the amount of money they are paying their fighters. There have been almost 10,000 Iraqi security forces regenerated that are taking the fight to ISIS in Ramadi. They're having some difficulties there.

[14:10:28] I don't want to paint a rosy picture, but I think what you're seeing is some improvements in the fight in Iraq and in Syria. Certainly not there yet. We've said this is going to take a very long time.

But at the same time all that's happened, the average American will say, how can you say ISIS is contained, Mr. President, when we see all these other acts going on all over the world?

HARLOW: Right.

HERTLING: Well, it's because ISIS has adapted their terror tactics. There are some that have been radicalized, as we've seen. They are doing things in other areas. So it just is counterintuitive to say the organization is contained when you see so many actions of different accounts around the world.

HARLOW: What about what Senator John McCain said at that hearing and other lawmakers, really demanding to know when the United States expects that it will, you know, be able to retake with the coalition other key cities like Raqqa and Mosul? And you had Carter could not - and the other generals could not give a timeline for that. When you look at the defacto capital in Syria of ISIS, Raqqa, how concerned are you about no time line for when that could be accomplished?

HERTLING: Well, I've been under the - the heat of Senator McCain's questionings on several occasions, both in the field and before Congress, and I can tell you that - that a whole new situation occurs when the red light goes on, on those cameras on the floor of the Congress. What he's asking for is something that is impossible to give.

What is the timeline for retaking Mosul? We don't know. I mean the timeline for taking Ramadi took longer than the U.S. elements thought because it is the Iraqi timeline that is retaken. I remember once being told by an Iraqi general, you Americans have the watch, but we have the time. Meaning, they will do it on their own time.

The same thing will occur in terms of when they get the force ready to go to Mosul and I think we're seeing a gradual impediment of ISIS in and around Raqqa that will continue to improve as targeting improves, which we've seen recently. We are dropping more bombs. The old adage of, hey, we're only dropping 25 percent of our munition, that's false. It's no longer true, so we should stop saying that. ISIS is being hit hard in the bombing campaign, and they're - we are seeing increasing intelligence and increasing fighters, Kurdish, Syrian free forces and Iraqi security forces, going after them.

HARLOW: General Mark Hertling, thank you. As always, appreciate the insight.

HERTLING: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Coming up next, to politics. No doubt the Republican Party is in turmoil, but will it be this man, will it be Donald Trump that decides its fate? The front-runner putting the GOP on notice as the global firestorm against him grows.

Also, we have breaking news out of Baltimore. One of the police officers charged in Freddie Gray's death took the stand today. You'll hear what he said about the seat belts inside of that police transport van.

And also heart-pounding moments all caught on video of a SWAT team walking into a hostage situation during a home invasion. And we will show that to you. Stay with us.

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[14:17:39] HARLOW: Breaking news right now. You're looking at live pictures of protesters gathering outside of city hall in Chicago as Mayor Rahm Emanuel gets ready to hold a news conference, but the city certainly on edge after a number - a number of videos of police- involved shootings have been released in the last few weeks. The mayor apologizing today for police misconduct on the investigation over the shooting of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald last year. We will speak with one of the mayor's task force members straight ahead. Stay with us for that.

Also breaking news right now out of Baltimore. The police officer there, William Porter, taking the stand today in his own defense. He is the first of six Baltimore police officers to go on trial in the April death of Freddie Gray. Porter faces multiple charges, including involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment. He faces up to 20 years in prison. He testified about why he did not strap Freddie Gray with a seat belt inside the van, saying he'd never been shown how. Also, as to why he didn't call a medic for Gray.

And let's talk about all of that with CNN's Miguel Marquez, who has been on this story from the very beginning. He has been in court every single day.

Let's get to that major, major question about calling for help and whether he heard Freddie Gray say that he couldn't breathe.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, the cross-examination of William Porter has just begun, and that is going to be a very tough cross-examination after about a two-hour direct questioning by his own lawyers. The - on the question of whether or not he heard Mr. Gray say he couldn't breathe, Officer Porter explained that to his defense lawyer by saying - and to the jury - that he only heard that as Mr. Gray was yelling at the very first incident, at the very first stop.

Some big points he made regarding the seat belting you talked about. He said, we were trained to use seat belts in the academy. But in all of my time on the streets, in all of the - everything I learned while I was on the job, we never seat belted detainees, he said, while they were in the van. He'd do it in his cruiser, but not while they were in the van.

The other huge question that Porter got at today was, what happened at that fourth stop? Six stops altogether in this - in this situation. What happened at that fourth stop? Porter insisted that Gray was responsive, that he was OK, that it was Gray himself who helped himself up onto the bench as Porter was trying to support him. The lawyers, at one point, laying on the ground, the jury standing up, watching all of this happen. Fairly dramatic moments as the lawyers tried to demonstrate how all of that took place in the van and how Mr. Gray had helped himself up, undermining the prosecution by saying, Mr. Gray had the movement of his body.

[14:20:18] Their expert, the defense expert came on today and said, if Mr. Gray had broken that part of his neck, he wouldn't have been able to move. He couldn't have moved a finger. He couldn't have moved a toe, their expert said. So the jury taking all of this in. Now that Porter's on the stand, they are taking notes, some of them copiously, clearly taking a lot of this in.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Miguel Marquez live for us in Baltimore. Miguel, thank you for that important update. Much more on this with my legal panel ahead.

Coming up next, breaking news. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reacting to Donald Trump's comments about Muslims. This ahead of their meeting scheduled for later this month. We will bring you the latest on that.

Also, was the paper pledge all for show?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have signed the pledge.

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HARLOW: Trump now warning he could run as an independent, pointing out a poll saying that he would do very well if he did. But can the Republican Party afford to lose Trump's loyal base of supporters? We'll discuss the future, the soul of the GOP, next.

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[14:25:28] HARLOW: Breaking news out of Chicago right now. You're looking at an aerial view of the streets of Chicago. The middle of the workday. Right now you have some major protests, you see them up close right there. This as Mayor Rahm Emanuel is holding a press conference, apologizing to the city for police misconduct. He did that this morning. And also for the investigation over the shooting of 17-year- old Laquan McDonald by a Chicago police officer, now charged with first degree murder. The protests are on the move in the heart of Chicago. We will speak with one of the mayor's members of his task force coming up. We'll keep a very close eye on Chicago for you this hour.

Donald Trump may be sticking to and sticking to his plan to ban Muslims from the United States, but he's threatening to break his promise about running as an independent. Here's what he said today on "Live with Kelly and Michael."

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MICHAEL STRAHAN, HOST, "LIVE WITH KELLY AND MICHAEL": With that being said, would you consider running as a third party candidate?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, let me tell you, first of all, I don't want to do that. I'm leading in the polls by not a little bit, like by 20 and 21 points. I mean the people, the Republican Party, has been - the people have been phenomenal. The party, I'll let you know about that. And if I don't get treated fairly, I would certainly consider that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Trump then cited this new poll from "USA Today." It found 68 percent of his supporters say they'd follow him if he ran as an independent, a third party candidate. That's an option that Trump supposedly ended back in March. You'll remember this moment, this oath to stay within the party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The best way for the Republicans to win is if I win the nomination and go directly against whoever they happen to put up. And for that reason, I have signed the pledge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah!

TRUMP: So I will be totally pledging my allegiance to the Republican Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was back in September. But now Donald Trump has reintroduced an independent run as a potential after a solid 48 hours of other Republican lawmakers, candidates, party officials bashing his call for, quote, "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States."

With me now to discuss, Rebecca Berg, national political reporter for "Real Clear Politicians," and Ron Bonjean, who used to be the spokesman for former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott.

Thank you both for being here.

Rebecca, you know there are a lot of things politicians have said on tape, on camera and then have reversed course on. If he reverses course, does it hurt him?

REBECCA BERG, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, REAL CLEAR POLITICS: Well, with Trump it's always hard to know, Poppy, because we have predicted time and again that things he has said and done would hurt him and lo and behold they end up not hurting him and even helping him in some cases. So it's really hard to say. I think that video of him holding up the GOP pledge and saying that he would run as a Republican would be very potent - a very potent tool or weapon for people to use against him if he were to run as a third party candidate.

But to speak quite frankly, I would say that what he is threatening now in terms of running as a third party candidate is much more of a tactic than it is an actual threat because every indication we've seen from Donald Trump is that he knows how to play this game. He is very, very clever politically. And what he does by threatening this is prevents the GOP from taking him on as wholeheartedly and as full- throated away as they might otherwise do.

HARLOW: Yes, we'll see all of this leading up to the last GOP debate of the year, which is on CNN on Tuesday night. So certainly a lot more will be revealed then.

But, Ron, I want to look at these numbers again, this "USA Today" poll, right? Sixty-eight percent of Trump supporters, not Republicans but Trump supporters, right now say, yes, if he leaves the party, runs on his own, we will support him. My question to you is, can the GOP still win the presidency, right? Can they still win the presidency if Trump does this?

RON BONJEAN, FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR SENATE MAJORITY LEADER TRENT LOTT: Well, that's a really great question, and it's really difficult to answer at this point. I would say this. I would say that Trump keeps claiming that if he's not treated by the GOP fairly he would leave. But he is not treating Republicans fairly with his comments about Muslims, with his over-the-top comments about most other things these days and it's hurting the Republican brand. And I think in the long term, we have to think about how long we stick with Donald Trump.

[14:30:00] You know, I think most - more Republican candidates and members of Congress need to get out there and disavow his comments to make sure that once we select a nominee, that we're not tarred and branded with this - you know, with this guy's rhetoric.