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Carson Threatens Third-Party Run; Race for 2016; ISIS Has Passport Machines; Ex-Cop Found Guilty. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 11, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:07] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Brianna Keilar, thank you so much, my friend. Great to be with all of you on this Friday.

Listen, we are just four days away, four days from CNN hosting the final Republican presidential debate of this year. And now there will be not just one but two candidates up on that stage in Las Vegas who are threatening to revolt from the GOP. Ben Carson has just opened up the option that he will run as an independent. It is a card, as you well know, that Donald Trump has been playing.

Carson's threat, though, comes after this "Washington Post" report this morning on Republican Party leaders talking about the possibility of a brokered convention when the Republican National Convention happens next summer. You know, check the history books, last time something like that came even close to happening was back in 1976. By the way, a brokered convention is when no one singular candidate has enough delegates for that nomination. So then you have these deals that are made, brokered, to select the nominee.

And that meeting that was reported in "The Washington Post," spurred Carson today to release this statement. In part it reads like this, "if this was the beginning of a plan to subvert the will of the voters and replace it with the will of the political elite, I assure you, Donald Trump will not be the only one leaving the party."

So let's go straight to senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson, who really is the one who's got the scoop.

So, Nia, let's begin with this Carson third - third, you know, party option ticket. Explain what you know.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You know, this is strong words from Ben Carson, who is typically pretty mild mannered. But there I think you see him very much trying to align himself with Donald Trump. Ben Carson in a very odd position in this campaign right now, declining in some of those national and state polls. So here he is, in a very strong statement. We get this in our in-box at about 8:00 this morning. Part of it said, I will not stand by and watch a theft. Really accusing the RNC there of sort of already trying to orchestrate some sort of deal.

Now the RNC has come out and said, listen, this was just, you know, kind of an everyday meeting that they had. This was partially discussed, the idea of a brokered convention. But this was no sort of - the preview of some kind of brokered convention or them hatching a deal at this point. He has also come out and said subsequently, Carson has said, that he doesn't really think he would run as an independent.

This is very much like Trump did. He sort of made the threat and then made it seem like it was very unlikely. But, you know, chaos, chaos, chaos in so many ways.

BALDWIN: All right, so then similarly though, the chaos continues because, as you've been reporting, there's turmoil within the Carson campaign. Explain that for us.

HENDERSON: There is. There are really two Carson campaigns. There's one that's kind of the informal campaign that's made up of Armstrong Williams and Ben Carson. And the thing about Armstrong Williams is that he has no official role in the campaign, but he's very close to Carson and he has taken some pot shots at the campaign, saying that they haven't really prepared Carson in the way that they should. You remember that RJC (ph) meeting last week where he seemed to be sort of off his campaign in talking about international affairs, pronouncing Hamas as hummus and people mocked him for that.

And the campaign has come out and said, well, listen, Armstrong, you aren't always that helpful to the campaign, either. Armstrong, in the past, has come on our air, for instance, and criticized Ben Carson, saying he's got to be tougher and be used to the kind of scrutiny that we're going to give him as he is in this presidential campaign. They have said, listen, it's a work in process. They're trying to be one unified campaign going into the Iowa caucus where they've identified about 100,000 voters. They think if they can get 35,000 of those voters to caucus in their favor, that they could win. But at least they want a third place finish and then they can continue from there.

BALDWIN: OK, Nia-Malika Henderson, thank you so much, with the reporting there.

HENDERSON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And back to sort of - thank you - her first point, first here on CNN, one of the top organizers of the Republican National Convention responded to Carson's statement. Sean Spicer is who I'm talking about and he said this controversy really much ado about nothing, that the dinner was simply informing those attending how the process, the convention, would work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN SPICER, RNC CHIEF STRATEGIST & COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It really is. I mean, honestly, we have a dinner a night with people who have - who have expressed an interest. Like I said, three weeks ago we had 150 members of the press here where we walked through the same thing. We meet with people all day long who have an interest in this process - pundits, members of the media, donors, campaigns. People have questions about the process, we answer it. But here is the bottom line in all of this. Republican voters will choose the delegates that will go to the convention in Cleveland next July. Those people will decide the nominee. That's it. Bottom line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So joining me now, Matthew Continetti. He's the editor in chief of "The Washington Free Beacon."

So, Matthew, thank you for coming on.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI, EDITOR IN CHIEF, WASHINGTON FREE BEACON: Thanks for having me.

[14:05:02] BALDWIN: Let's just begin - let's take a half step back because when everyone's waking up and we're reading this "Washington Post" piece about, you know, talks of this brokered convention, what would lead to a brokered convention? What would that look like, Matthew?

CONTINETTI: Well, the way that the political analysts that I trust describe it is, right now the Republican field is so large, and the delegate allocation rules in the different states are so complex, that you could have a situation, if all of the candidates remain in the race for a while, where no one candidate has the required number of delegates to actually win the nomination. This is something that Sean Trendy (ph) at Real Clear Politics has written about. I think that may be what the people at that RNC meeting Nia-Malika was reporting on were discussing.

BALDWIN: OK. And then people are saying that that would be so different than, for example, in '76, it was Ford/Reagan. That was two candidates at the time. And as you point out, this is so - so many more and who knows how many rounds it could go. There is that.

Number two, there's this element now, Senator Ted Cruz, and this leaked audio, "New York Times" have obtained in this private fundraiser, here's the clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I like and respect both Donald and Ben. But I think in both instances in particular, you look at Paris, you look at San Bernardino, it's given a seriousness to this race. That people are looking for who is prepared to be a commander in chief. Now that's a question of strength, but it's also a question of judgment. And I think that is a question that is a challenging question for both of them. So my approach, much to the frustration of the media, has been to bear hug both of them and smother them with love, because - because I think - look, people run as who they are. I believe that gravity will bring both of those campaigns down. I think the lion's share of their supporters come to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so that was at his fundraiser. And, listen, these politicians have been around. They know that people are going to have cameras and record things. But that said, that was - that was private. And then you have this Cruz tweet since then saying this. Quote, "the establishment's only hope, Trump and me in a cage match. Sorry to disappoint. Donald Trump is terrific, #dealwithit."

Here's my question for you, Matthew, as I'm looking ahead to Vegas and our, you know, Republican debate. How do you think the dynamic between those two, between Cruz and Trump, will play out for all of us to see?

CONTINETTI: Well, I think it's up to Donald Trump because in that tweet you just read is exactly what Ted Cruz said in private he was going to do, which is continue to bear hug Donald Trump and wait, basically, for his campaign to fade away. I think there's real danger in any Republican waiting for Donald Trump's campaign to fade away. But I think in the debate Tuesday, you'll see Ted Cruz try to avoid conflict and then really the matter is up to Donald Trump. Does he want to initiate conflict with Ted Cruz since it's Cruz who's creeping up in the Iowa polls.

BALDWIN: He is creeping, indeed. You write this piece in "The Free Beacon" about how - the party divide gets to how Trump's candidacy may force Republicans to realize their party may be changing. Tell me how, Matthew.

CONTINETTI: Well, look, I think the party's nominee is a reflection of where the party is going. And you saw that in 1964 with Barry Goldwater. You saw that in 1972 with George McGovern. You saw it in 1980 with Ronald Reagan, where he brought in religious voters and he also brought in kind of urban voters who were part of the new deal coalition. So it's very possible that what we're seeing in Donald Trump is a new change in the complex and the character of the Republican Party, bringing in new voters, and maximizing kind of the white working class voters who have already - always been a part, but a neglected part of the Republican coalition. If that happens, then the party of Reagan and George W. Bush will probably cease to exist as we know it after this election.

BALDWIN: Which is what is making a lot of establishment Republicans shake.

Matthew Continetti, thank you so much, with "The Washington Free Beacon," editor in chief. Thank you.

And a reminder, as we mentioned, the big debate in Vegas four days away. It is Tuesday, December 15th, 6:00 and 8:30 p.m. right here on CNN

Coming up next, we have to show you these pictures here. These divers, FBI, what they just found in the water where investigators have been looking for evidence connected to the killers, that terrorist couple in San Bernardino. We have the latest there for you.

Also, a disturbing new warning, ISIS using machines to create fake passports. Why this could change the game.

[14:09:27] And a jury convicts a former police officer accused of raping 13 black women. Moments ago, the women who survived his attacks broke their silence during an emotional news conference. We have it. We will play it for you. Do not miss this. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now I can tell you that investigators in California are scouring for additional clues regarding the husband and wife terrorists, the killers, who committed the worst terror attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. We now know this, that they are no longer searching the couple's home in San Bernardino. Instead, they have taken the search for clues to this small lake nearby.

The bigger questions right now are as follows. What are the dive teams looking for? Did this couple hide, toss something in that water? The FBI isn't saying, but one theory is that that hard drive that is conveniently missing from the killer's home computer, could it be in the water? What the FBI is saying is this, is that the husband had ties to a terror recruiter and a group of jihadists in California. It was a group arrested back in 2012 for trying to travel to Afghanistan to join al Qaeda.

And now a warning to Americans, as the manhunt in Geneva, Switzerland, intensifies, you have these six terror suspects linked to the Paris attacks who are now missing, which means they're on the run. So how does this tie to a threat here in the United States? I can tell you that a source is telling CNN that intercepted communication was picked up between extremists connected to ISIS who were discussing not just possible attacks in Geneva, but we're learning they were discussing attacks potentially in Chicago and in Toronto.

[14:15:26] This as the U.S. warns of a new threat posed by fake passports. Fake passports. A new intelligence report suggesting that ISIS actually has a machine capable of making these passports. Here is the director of the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you concerned that ISIS has the ability to create fraudulent passports or other identification documents for its operatives that has a practical - that as a practical matter it would be almost impossible to detect?

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the intelligence community is concerned that they have the ability - the capability to manufacture fraudulent passports, which is a concern in any setting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in David Rothkopf, CEO and editor of "Foreign Policy Magazine." Also author of "National Insecurity."

So, David, welcome back. Thank you very much.

DAVID ROTHKOPF, CEO AND EDITOR, FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE: Glad to be here.

BALDWIN: Let's begin with what Comey was talking about, these passports, this passport, this printing machine. First of all, how would ISIS have even - where would this have come from?

ROTHKOPF: Well, they've been gaining ground across Syria and Iraq and they went into a town where there was thought that these machines existed and they took them over.

BALDWIN: Government buildings.

ROTHKOPF: Yes. Right, exactly.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROTHKOPF: And now - I mean, you know, we have to recognize that if you're going to have a terrorism mission, you're going to try to conceal your identity. You're going to try to cross borders. And there are a bunch of ways to do this. You can do this with manufactured passports. You can do it with stolen passports. You can do it by sneaking across the border. So, you know, it's a worrisome development, but it's not an unexpected development.

BALDWIN: So you're not surprised. This isn't because, you know, people have been sitting in that seat for, you know, a year and a half talking about ISIS' level of sophistication. This, as you say, it's sort of par for the course.

ROTHKOPF: Well, yes, ISIS' level of sophistication is growing as ISIS grows -

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROTHKOPF: And they do more of these things, they become more sophisticated. I think we also have to keep in mind, for example, that we had these attacks in San Bernardino, and they had U.S. passports and visas. So it - you know, it doesn't take a Syria -

BALDWIN: K-1 fiance visa.

ROTHKOPF: Right. It doesn't take a Syrian passport -

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROTHKOPF: To create this kind of threat. There are a lot of ways to (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: What about that that frightens you the most though of what we know so far with regard to San Bernardino?

ROTHKOPF: About the San Bernardino thing (ph)?

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROTHKOPF: Well, I mean, I think it's kind of the new normal, right? I think ISIS is the first open source terror group. They're essentially saying, you want to sign up, you're it.

BALDWIN: Go freelance. ROTHKOPF: You know, go freelance for us and then we'll take credit for

it. That's an incredible force multiplier because it means that anybody disgruntled, anybody radicalized can go take action and all of a sudden it looks like ISIS is everywhere all the time. They didn't necessarily recruit them. They didn't necessarily train them. They're not part of a hierarchy. And so that makes them look scarier and scarier. If you're a terror organization, your job isn't just killing people, it's spreading terror.

BALDWIN: I know a lot of this is perspective. We were talking in the commercial break about a piece you wrote last week that ruffled some feather about sugar versus ISIS being more deadly. And I would love to hear more about that in the sense that I'm thinking ahead to this debate and you're going to have all these Republican candidates standing on the stage next week and Americans - some Americans are frightened because it is - I'm looking down at my notes, this is the latest "New York Times"/CBS News poll, that most Americans fear a terror attack, it's the highest it's been since the days after 9/11. And so Americans will be watching because they want answers. They want these candidates to say, this is what I will do if I'm elected into the Oval Office to keep you safe.

ROTHKOPF: Well, look, fear is a very powerful thing. It's those kind of feelings that drive elections. It's not cerebral, it's gut.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROTHKOPF: And we're living in a moment where you sit here every day and you're reporting on a different terror attack on a regular basis.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROTHKOPF: And we've seen that. And that drum beat makes people nervous. Having said that -

BALDWIN: There's rhetoric out there that does, as well.

ROTHKOPF: Right. But having said that, we have to keep it in perspective. It's a serious threat. We need to do what we can to contain the threat. But 600 times more people will be killed in the United States this year from gun violence than from terrorism. And many more people will be killed from obesity than from terrorism. And so these threats are bigger threats. And we can't allow the ones that dominate the news or that scare us the most to take our attention away from the big things.

Governor Christie, a couple of weeks ago said it was irresponsible of President Obama to be dealing with global warming when he should be dealing with terror. Look, let's be serious, the degradation of the environment of the planet, which will dislocate hundreds of millions of people, cause untold suffering, and may be irreversible, is actually much, much bigger than the threat that could be caused by a relatively small terror group like ISIS.

[14:20:11] BALDWIN: David Rothkopf, thank you.

ROTHKOPF: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Next, he stood trial, accused of raping 13 African-American women. Now a former Oklahoma City police officer has been convicted. Prosecutors say he used his badge to take advantage of these women. Some of the survivors, they are now breaking their silence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just picked the wrong lady to stop that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt like I was in survivor mode, so I had to do what he was making me do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Their pain is real. Their stories, difficult to hear. But some of these sexual assault victims of a convicted former police officer, they are now speaking out. They are reacting to the guilty verdict of 29-year-old Daniel Holtzclaw. A jury convicted him on 18 of the 36 counts, including rape. According to prosecutors, he preyed on these women with criminal histories, singling out poor, African- American women he could intimidate into silence. But today, that silence is broken.

[14:25:25] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Me being in the room with the police, not expecting to get violated the way I did, the way I was done. I just couldn't even believe it. I just - I couldn't even - I was speechless. I was scared. I didn't - when - when everything was going down, I just - I felt - I was - I mean I was scared. I didn't know what to do. I - I felt like I was in survivor mode so I had to do what he was making me do. So -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He stopped me on 50th and Lincoln for no reason whatsoever, pulled me over, and followed me and did certain things to me. I was out there alone and helpless. Didn't know what to do. And in my mind, all I could think, that he was going to shoot me. He was going to kill me. He did things to me not anything a police officer would do. I wasn't a criminal. I have no record. I didn't do anything wrong. You said I did something wrong. You said I was swerving, which I was not. You just wanted to stop me. So all I can say is, I was innocent, and he just picked the wrong lady to stop that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Good for her. Good for her.

I have with me CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins and Joey Jackson. Joey's also a criminal defense attorney.

Great to see both of you. Here we have now this guilty verdict. And then next, obviously, the sentencing. And according to the jury, they suggested something like 263 years for him. What - what's in all likelihood to happen?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Exactly that.

BALDWIN: Really?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

JACKSON: Oh, without question. This is egregious - as egregious as it can possibly get. And, you know, let's not forget, Brooke, how we got here. And how we got here, as I'm sure Mel will speak to, is the bravery for the woman we just saw there -

BALDWIN: Yes.

JACKSON: To go forward and to say, you know what, I'm just an average citizen, but I'm going to go forward and trust that the police will do the right thing. That they'll investigate the case and get to the bottom of it. And you know what, Brooke, they certainly did, because she went in June of 2014. By January he was fired. They ultimately uncovered that there were 13 other victims. It went to the grand - it went ultimately, of course, to a jury trial. And then you wonder, you know what, will the jury do the right thing? Will they do the right thing because there are 13 African-American women and there's an all- white jury.

BALDWIN: And there's an all-white jury.

JACKSON: Will they and will they scratch the surface and could they relate? They sure did, to the tune of 263 years that they confirmed to that judge.

Now, the last part of it is this, then you wonder, when you're at that jury trial, you wonder, you know, will the defense really go into it with the victims and say, you're from the poorest of the poor neighborhood, you're a drug dealer, you used drugs, you're a prostitute, you're a criminal and they played that card -

ROBBINS: They did.

JACKSON: And the jury rejected it and they rejected it resoundedly and ultimately that was the great strength of the prosecution to say, who would this police officer do this to? People he thinks he could get away with it. You know what? He sure didn't.

ROBBINS: Yes, it tells you that the jury was very angry about that tactic, too, by attacking the victims and pointing out that they were either prostitutes or had records or were addicted to drugs.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

ROBBINS: And, you know, we believe, Brooke, that the last woman that you were showing in the clip with the bob-style hairdo is the woman that broke the case. She's a 57-year-old grandmother. Now think about this. Your own grandmother driving home from playing dominoes, she gets pulled over, not in a neighborhood she lives in, but in the neighborhood that this police officer had been targeting. She is then forced to do these unspeakable acts. She fears for her life. But when she got home, having no record, having no reason to fear the police, having always respected the police, she called the police. And so I see this as a story not only of this amazing woman being very brave in a moment where you could have just tried to make it all go away and pretend it never happened.

BALDWIN: Right.

JACKSON: Right.

ROBBINS: But it's also a story about a police department that does the right thing.

BALDWIN: They did. They did. They did.

ROBBINS: Yes, they did, because they believed her. And then you know what else they did? It took them just a month to go, you know, there are these six other unsolved cases -

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

ROBBINS: That look like what happened here.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

JACKSON: And it snowballed and they uncovered and they peeled back the onion and this is what they got.

[14:30:01] BALDWIN: Two hundred and sixty-three years recommended in prison. And we'll watch for the sentencing.

JACKSON: Consecutive time, by the way, Brooke, which means that he'll - each and every victim has a compelling story on to its own and they -

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

JACKSON: Something he did unspeakable as to each of them. So I look for the judge to --

ROBBINS: Eighteen different --