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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Holdsclaw Convicted on Rape Charges; Bergdahl Attorney Interviewed. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 11, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All in all, the stories of -- well, that's only of half of the charges that he was facing. But our correspondent on location had said there were a number of different things that could have been that the prosecution had met its burden in some of those particular charges. But that all in all, the stories of the women who were affected by this crime, the victims in this crime who were downtrodden themselves. Many of them admittedly prostitutes and involved in the drug world didn't believe they were going to get justice, and they did, they were believed.

[12:30:29] And they were believed by in all of white jury, an all white jury if you can believe it how so many people as that eight men and four women all whites couldn't give these people justice and clearly that's been a different story.

Mr. Crump is still speaking and I really want to hear from these women because their stories are so poignant and so important at this time.

I want to bring in my Legal Panel Mark O'Mara who's joining us. Mel and Joey are already here. We were talking earlier guys about this significance of this case.

We are in an era right now where officer behavior is under a microscope, and I want to get your opinions on this as well. When you watched case and you saw what develops, Mark O'Mara. Is it a small case in a massive story that's still is very unsolvable? Are we moving in a direction that at least will make a difference at least for people out there and their perceptions of officers and their behavior?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well not only was their justice for the victims of what he did to the downtrodden that he took on knowing that he could abuse and revictimize them. But I think you are right, I think we might need this for the system, because we know that there is a horrible disconnect between the way some law enforcement officers are acting and what they seem to be getting away with.

So, what I like about this from the system perspective is this officer did something wrong, he was caught, it wasn't let go. It wasn't strapped down during a rug like, I know there had been arguments to other cases that have been, Chicago is one of them for 400 days.

No, he was prosecuted and he was convicted by a jury and now he is spending probably the rest of his life in jail. And I like the idea that we're telling the rest of the community out there that we will hold our cops, our bad cops responsible.

BANFIELD: Mel Robbins, jump on that as well. This is a moment in a very big story across this nation in a very important era. But it is also a moment in sex abuse, and sex crimes and victims who typically do not like to come forward no matter what their socioeconomic background. You have women who might be the first of anyone to say, there is no way I'm going to be put myself in a predicament where A, I'm am going to be outed and B, I won't be believe, and then I'll be excoriated, and my life will be even worse than it is now. Does this change that for women out there who don't believe they can't get justice?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR: I hope it does. And you know, you make an excellent point, Ashleigh, because he was preying on women.

BANFIELD: Can I cut you off in just one moment, because we have the first person stepped to the mic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANIE LIGGINS, RAPE VICTIM: Good morning, everybody. And give all the praise to God. I just thank God that I can stand here today and talk and say this.

I was violated in June by a police officer. He stopped me on 50th in Lincoln for no reason whatsoever. Pulled me over, and fondled me and did certain things to me. I was out there alone and helpless, and don't know what to do. And in my mind all I could think that he was going to shoot me. He was going to kill me.

He did things to me that I didn't think that a police officer would do. He made me perform oral or sodomy sex on him. I didn't know what to do. I was so afraid. I was afraid for my life. I kept begging him, sir please don't make me do this. Don't make me do this sir, please. You are going to shoot me.

He said, "I'm not going to shoot you." I said, "Yeah, you're going to shoot me." The only thing I could see with my life flash before my eyes and the gun on his holster to his right side. And as I tried to look up at his name, I was afraid to because I stay if I knew he's name, I know he's going to kill me, so that I didn't do.

So, he did so many things to me, and I was so afraid and I was at there like I say so helpless. With God's will, he let me live. And he let me live to tell this story like a lot of victims are not able to do. And I thank God above for letting me do that.

All I can say is, I was a victim. I was traumatized. I went to therapy. I had a stroke behind this. And I still live with this day after day.

And all I know is, I wasn't a criminal. I have no record. I didn't do anything wrong. You said I did something wrong. You said I was swerving, which I was not. He just wanted to stop me. So, all I can say is I was innocent, and he just picked the wrong lady to stop that night. [12:35:16] BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY: Yes.

And now you will hear from another hero, Ms. Sharday Hill to tell you about what happened to her. And she has her mother and father to her side.

SHARDAY HILL, RAPE VICTIM: I just want to say, on the night that I was stopped, I didn't expect for none of these to happen. And when he approached the car, I mean I didn't know what was going to happen next. Because me and some others were just sitting in the car and he just came and approached the car, and it went from there.

And when once he did the arrest, I was took into a hospital on the whole opposite side of town which I've been thinking that's enough of that at that time. And once I got there they gagged me, took off my clothes, and handcuffed me to the bed and took to me to a room. And no nurses, nobody came to check on me. And shortly, he just started to manipulate me. And...

CRUMP: Take your time.

HILL: Me been in a room with the police, not expecting to get violated the way I did, the way I was done, I just couldn't even believe it. I just -- I was speechless, I was scared, I didn't...

When everything was going down, I just -- I felt -- I was -- I mean I was scared. I didn't know what to do. I felt like I was in survival mode so had to do what he was making me do. So...

CRUMP: That's fine. Thank you.

And we do want to allow her parents to speak as well. And I want to just take a moment as president of the National Bar Association, the Law Agent's Association, lawyers of collar, and thank the jury who stood in the evidence, for deliberating, and treating these women like they would treat any other American citizen.

So we are very thankful, because a lot of people did not think that these women could get justice. And it shows that there's hope for our country, there's hope for society, and there's hope for all our sisters, mothers, wives, daughters who are victims of rape. No matter what race they are, what ethnicity they are, what socioeconomic class and status they're in because we certainly believe the serial rapist with a badge had a modus operandi that targeted poor black women who were in the system. As the state of...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That's Attorney Benjamin Crump outside of the Oklahoma City Courthouse with a group of women. We had expected there would be several women, maybe up to eight who might actually get public statements. And so far, we've from two of them. And we're not sure that any others have chosen to speak publicly at this time. But I think it is extremely telling what you did here, from that very first woman who stepped up to the microphone. She said he just picked the wrong lady to stop that night. So that I want to come back to my panel, and Mel Robbins, you were the person who said it first. He picked the wrong lady, a woman in her 50's, who did not come from the same area, who perhaps did not have the same background, she said it herself "I had no record, I had no criminal background". So she had less to lose than perhaps the others. And this might have been the case that started the dominant falling.

[12:40:04] ROBBINS: And she had nothing to lose. And in fact, she -- in her testimony, she said that she had been at a friend's house playing dominoes and was driving home. And you know, it was really compelling and unbelievable sad to listen to her talk about the fact that she feared for her life. She had done nothing wrong. But, you know, you have to applaud her for going to the police.

And I also want to under source something that Mark said earlier, which is, this is a very important case to be talking about, because this is a case where a really bad cop was weeded out very quickly. And that makes the police officers in Oklahoma City look amazing because they're doing their jobs.

BANFIELD: They are doing the right thing.

ROBBINS: Contrasted with Chicago where you see somebody that is basically protected by the system for 400 days, and that undermines trust overall.

BANFIELD: How do you think that the community is going to react to this? I mean we've had so many different reactions in so many different cities where there's been a bad cop doing bad things?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I would have to think that everyone, community and elsewhere would have to react in a positive way. Why? Because this is an incidence of course where you think and you really consider it's an officer with a badge, can anybody get justice?

The Police Department gets the case they fire him after finding out exactly what he did, ultimately has brought to trial and now you have accountability.

And let me just say on the issue of accountability and why I think the community certainly would have reason for hope here that you can really peel back the onion and get it right. I think on the issue of accountability, he certainly is looking at in my view without question of life sentence, and here's why. If you look at the victims who just spoke, think about the harrowing nature of their experience. Think about what she must have felt thinking about, I could die today, and he could shoot me, OK.

BANFIELD: I just going to reiterate that the first woman who spoke which is, she's to the left of Benjamin Crump holding Benjamin Crump's right hand in this picture.

She actually said the word, I know his name. If I knew his name, I knew he was going to kill me. She knew that if she looked up she would be able to see his name on his badge, and she was afraid to that, just the knowledge of his name made her fear for her life.

JACKSON: And that's -- I mean it must had horrific. And -- but here's why I think legally, certainly, this officer and why I say life. These are separate and distinct offenses, and they had separate and distinct types of, you know, each woman really endured something painful in and on of itself. And I think that's why they will serve the judge will give consecutive time, OK. Consecutive time meaning, you know, normally when a defendant would commit an offense it's the same what we called transaction and occurrence the same act.

So you'll charge with multiple things, but since it's the same act, you get 30 years, 20 years, 30 years but it's all in one. I think in this case, based upon what he did to each if judge will apply...

BANFIELD: If act, you know, after act.

JACKSON: Exactly and stop the time. Correct.

BANFIELD: After act and I can say that 13 different times, because there were 13 women who came into these courtroom and actually establish the pattern of the behavior Mark O'Mara is a pattern of the behavior. If one of these women had come forward and told her story ask for justice and did not have the benefit of the pattern and the other women. And I'm talking Bill Cosby here, because there is a pattern and there are dozens of women who have had the same story over years and years, if one of them came forward would these have been the result?

O'MARA: No it wouldn't have been. And you and I talked about this with Bill Cosby case. We cross similar fact evidence. And what happens is when you try different cases together were they are similar or no so you can get them in front of a courtroom.

A jury may look at one particular fact scenarios, they were not certain. The defense attorney did a great job and we have reasonable doubt. But when you have two victims, 13 victims you come in and say," It happened to me in a similar way" then all that doubt goes away. Quite honestly the benefit of the doubt which would otherwise go to a criminal defendant in a one-act case goes out the window.

And it led to our conviction as well it should have, because we know that it happened in all of the cases, because we know what happened in most. We look forward and realize what the sentence is going to be.

BANFIELD: Talk about bravery. There are so many layers of bravery, not only the women who came forward, the domino leader who came forward the others who followed and came forward. But then those who came forward right now and spoke live in front of the nation, instead this is justice and I'm going to tell you what it looks like. I'm going to tell you what it feels like. I'm going to tell you what it sounds like, and it is me. It's me, and I'm going to say it, so many people who are involved in these kinds of cases.

O'MARA: So their hoping that those who are thinking about not talking, about not acknowledging it, will now do it, and all the system can work. ROBBINS: That end that other police forces realize that in order to bolster trust and to protect the great men and women that are out there serving, you've to get rid of the bad once as fast as possible when they come to life.

[12:45:00] BANFIELD: Yeah, thank you to all three of you. I appreciate it. It's been a hard story to cover but is that silver lining that you really do want to have hope. Mark, Mel, Joey. Thank you. I appreciate it.

When we heard that U.S. Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl's podcast interview was airing yesterday and it details his time in captivity. We wondered did his attorney know he was doing these interviews? Did his attorney approved of doing these interviews? Did they know the interviews would be broadcast for everyone including you to hear? Did he know that potential jurors would hear it too if he goes to trial?

All those questions next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:04] BANFIELD: We are counting the minutes until the next episode of Serial. What is Serial? It's the most downloaded podcast of all time. And they debuted second season yesterday with this man, Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl who described for the first time publicly his capture by the Taliban after leaving his post in Afghanistan back in 2009.

Bergdahl says among other things, he was trying to the live up to a super human image when he made that awful decision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOWE BERGDAHL: I was trying to prove to myself, I was trying to prove to the world that anybody who used to know me that I was capable of, you know, being that person.

MARK BOAL: Like a super soldier, you mean?

BERGDAHL: Yeah, capable of being what I appeared to be. Like doing what I did was me saying I am like - oh, I don't know, Jason Bourne.

BOAL: Right, a character in a book or whatever, a character.

BERGDAHL: Yeah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Whatever his reason, the military is still deciding whether or not to court-martial Bowe Bergdahl for desertion.

I'm joined now by his lawyer Gene Fidell.

Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show Gene. Can I just start with a very simple question that I would ask of any attorney, did you OK these interviews, knowing that they would be public? EUGENE FIDELL, ATTORNEY FOR SGT. BOWE BERGDAHL: I think any attorney would say that that is confidential information, and would decline to answer and that's going to be my answer, unfortunately.

BANFIELD: OK, I completely respect that. I'll go this route instead. Do these interviews that he did that have become so incredibly public, do they make your job very difficult?

FIDELL: Well, I'm afraid you're trying to get into my head on that. I will say this, ultimately, you know, we've already had an Article 32 preliminary hearing on this case. We know roughly what the facts are. My own view is that anything that emerges from the Serial Podcast is probably in the public interest because the more people know about it, the better.

So, you know, whether it complicates my professional job or not is not really the issue. To me, the more important issue is does it advance public understanding of the case. And I think it does. So that's about the best I can do on your question.

BANFIELD: So, I can - I'm only laughing because none of this is funny, is that every time I interview a lawyer and I have interviewed thousands in my 27 years in this job, I get the exact opposite answer, Gene. And that is, I tell my client to shut-up when we are facing A, charges or B, a potential trial, or C, an Article 32 procedure, because your client might still face court-martial. And this is information that can and will be used against him if he goes to court- martial.

FIDELL: Well, let me respond this way. Last year, my client was interviewed by then Major General, now Lieutenant General Kenneth Dahl for more than a day at Fort Sam Houston. I was there. General Dahl and his lawyer were there. They were kneecap-to-kneecap for the whole day. My client answered every single question that was put to him. He was under oath at that time. And General Dahl got a very good sense, I think of the whole set of facts and circumstances.

Unfortunately, the army has resisted our request that the interview be made public. We even went to court - the Court of Appeals turned us down about an hour ago on last pending appeal, presumably that issue will now go to the Federal District Court. We have struggled to get the facts out.

And I wish that the army had made Sergeant Bergdahl's transcript of his interview, 370 something pages public along time ago. It's unclassified and would help the public understand the entire case.

BANFIELD: Gene Fidell, it's great to talk to you. I could talk to you for days about this one. This is the most unique situation I'm finding. And I'm going to invite you back, because I do have a lot more questions for you when I have more time. Can you come back?

FIDELL: I'll see if I can.

BANFIELD: I get that answer a lot, too. Thank you, Gene. I Appreciate it. FIDELL: You're welcome.

BANFIELD: There are still so many questions with regards to this story.

And my next guest has a lot of questions, too, because he served in the same company as Bowe Bergdahl. And he says he or any other soldier would have died for Bowe Bergdahl. Until that Bowe Bergdahl committed the ultimate betrayal.

[12:55:00] Jose Baggett, joins me live now from Atlanta.

Jose, thank you so much for doing this. You just heard, and I assume you just heard Bowe Bergdahl's attorney answering as to why this interview was, you know, made public. Some people say it's because he might want to be sweetening a potential jury pool. He might want to be getting a very sympathetic story out to any other fellow soldiers who may sit in that jury box in judgment of him if there's a court- martial. How would you feel about that?

JOSE BAGGETT, SERVED IN AFGHANISTAN WITH BERGDAHL: Well, even if that's the case, he still disobeyed his orders, he's general orders, very basic orders. And if he is trying to sweeten up a jury that knows the rules and regulations of the military I don't think it will work very well.

And, you know, when you talk about him like talking down on the leadership because he felt unsafe, I think that -- that's something that should be look at a lot harder, too.

BANFIELD: And Jose, to that point, I'm glad you brought that up because you were in leadership, granted you were not in the same platoon with him, so you did not lead him in a platoon, but you are in the same company. And his complaints about leadership are ostensibly why he said he -- he left the base. He wanted to go to tell another base farther away what was going on at this base to protect people like you and to protect fellow soldiers. What's wrong with that argument?

BAGGETT: There's a lot wrong with that argument, especially when he said that he wanted to leave the O.P. that he was at to go seek help when, not even 24 hours he was going to be back on that base anyways. It's not like he was away from Fob Sharana for so long of period of time that he couldn't go to somebody and seek help if he wanted it. It's not like he was out there for months at a time. We all took turns guarding this post.

So for him to say that he needed to leave because he felt like his life was endangered doesn't make any sense, because all he ended up doing was to putting his life in danger and when he left, he was on guard duty at that time. So...

BANFIELD: Yeah.

BAGGETT: ...when he did it, he's ended up leaving in the middle of the night, left his guard post which could have been open to attacks, somebody could have went and that's set to fire him done some damage or something and then put himself in danger.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you, he didn't himself in danger, he clearly did.

BAGGETT: Right.

BANFIELD: He was captured and he was tortured effectively for five years. So to that end, Jose, no matter what he did that time, no matter the lives that were put in danger searching for him, has he suffered enough already? Or does he need to be court-martialed for that?

BAGGETT: When you join the army, you volunteer to join. You volunteer to follow all of the rules and regulations that are set in point. You volunteer to follow all of the training and everything that you are taught that you survive.

The leadership that he's talking about is leadership that I deployed with to Iraq for 15 months that I was in Fallujah with. When I was with them, nobody was ever harmed when I was with them. I've been shot in my own side plate and that never scared me, I was never scared by my leadership.

BANFIELD: I hear you.

BAGGETT: I didn't feel like I was unsafe or whatever and so, you know, I just...

BANFIELD: I appreciate it, you know...

BAGGETT: I just don't...

BANFIELD: And I have to leave it there on. So, sorry that we have a little delay between...

BAGGETT: Sorry.

BANFIELD: I have to leave it there only because the Wolf Blitzer Show comes right after mine. And I am love (ph) that we have the time.

Jose, then thank you so much for being with us, I appreciate it.

Thanks for watching everyone, Brianna Keilar is going to sit in for Wolf, whose on assignment. They'll be back after quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)