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GOP Infighting; Obama to Set to Receive Pentagon Briefing on ISIS; Ted Cruz's Strategy Against ISIS; More Shots Fired Between Russia and Turkey; Closing Arguments in Baltimore Officer Trial. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 14, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:04] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Marco Rubio hitting Cruz for his, quote, "isolationist" views, while Donald Trump called him a maniac. But is all the Republican infighting just boosting Democrats?

Joining me now, conservative talk radio host Ben Ferguson and Patti Solis Doyle, 2008 presidential campaign manager for Hillary Clinton.

Welcome to both of you.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be here. Good morning.

PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi. Thank you.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Thanks -- thanks for being here, Patti and Ben.

So, Ben, do you think Democrats are just sitting back and kind of laughing or are they -- or are they not?

FERGUSON: Well, I mean, no, I think they're enjoying the show, but I also think they're focused on their own primary and the general election, obviously, if you're Hillary Clinton's campaign. So I don't think this is going to have any big, negative impact on the GOOP debate.

A lot of people are focused on it. A lot of people are paying attention to it. And the more I guess you could say social media you have around one side, the more people understand the issues and they feel like they know the candidates better. So I don't think this is a negative in any way for the GOP primary or the guys that are trying to win it or the -- or Carly Fiorina for that matter.

COSTELLO: Still, Patti, a new NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows in a general election matchup, Hillary Clinton would actually beat both Trump and Cruz, while narrowly losing to Ben Carson and Marco Rubio. So, again, does Clinton benefit by being able to train all her fire on Republicans as a whole?

DOYLE: Well, listen, I think, as Hillary Clinton's campaign manager back in '08, what I find really interesting is that the national media is basically focused on the Republican field and pretty much leaving the democratic field to its own devices, which is great because normally when your name is Clinton, you are followed intensely by the media. And now she's able to talk directly to Iowa voters, directly to New Hampshire voters, and that's what it's all about, getting these Democratic voters to listen to what she has to say on policy and substance and it's been fantastic for the whole Democratic field, I think.

COSTELLO: But Hillary Clinton will likely be a topic on stage in tomorrow night's debate, right, Ben?

FERGUSON: Sure.

COSTELLO: So she'll take a few shots, Ben.

FERGUSON: Yes, no, of course she will.

DOYLE: Yes.

FERGUSON: But, look, we are -- we are a -- we're a long -- long way aways from the Election Day when you have the GOP nominee going against Hillary Clinton if she wins this, which I think she will. And that's when the firestorm really happens and starts and the media starts paying more attention to the Democratic side. The media is going to cover what's exciting. And let's be honest, the Democratic side right now is incredibly dull and boring. Bernie Sanders is the nicest second place candidate we've ever seen in the Democratic primary. And Hillary Clinton is running away with this.

But the Republicans are going to focus on her I think more. The more -- the closer you get to an Election Day, you're going to see them. But right now, you have a big fight in the GOP and that's a good thing. It's a healthy debate. It's a healthy fight. And you're going to see these candidates really trying to get to that number one spot. You see Ted Cruz doing it right now. And what did we see this weekend? You have Donald Trump calling Ted Cruz a maniac, which might be the funniest thing that I've seen Donald Trump say in a long time. Him calling someone else a maniac, saying they're off their -- you know, off their rocker and they're crazy. Don -- coming from Donald Trump, I mean, it's quite fun to watch. It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with that tomorrow night.

COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about -- let's talk about Ted Cruz for just a second, Patti.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COSTELLO: He has a problem with his likability factor, right, but he's really smart. He has a lot of money. He's a great debater. So could he still win? I mean despite the likability factor?

DOYLE: Look, I think he has a strong shot. I think tomorrow night's debate is going to be extremely interesting because Donald Trump is not such a great debater. When it comes to policy and substance, he sort of blends into the woodwork. He's great on the attack, so I foresee tomorrow night he's going to be attacking Ted Cruz, he's going to be attacking Ben Carson because he doesn't like to lose. And when he's on the attack, he wins. At least that's what the polls have showed us.

But Ted Cruz has been great just being Mr. Nice Guy. You know, he shot up in the Iowa -- in the Iowa "Des Moines Register" poll. So I think he's got a pretty good shot at winning Iowa. But New Hampshire, so far Donald Trump and maybe Chris Christie will come in first.

COSTELLO: Oh, you know, a lot of people are talking about Chris Christie, Ben Ferguson.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COSTELLO: In fact, I was talking to Ron Brownstein and Douglas Brinkley. Both of them said Chris Christie may surprise us all and shoot to the top.

FERGUSON: I totally agree. I think he has the biggest upside of any candidate that's polling lower right now in the GOP side. And I think he also understands how to win the state by state races and maybe not go national all the time. One of the -- one of the things we're seeing with Cruz and his surge in Iowa is the fact he understood you need a real big and good ground game in early states. Chris Christie has that moving forward, as well. And I think he understands, you know what, I'll let these other guys duke it out a little bit and maybe I'll peak at the right moment.

There's also this other issue that is big. Donald Trump has set himself up for failure. He has walked out there every day on every campaign stop and said, I'm the best candidate. I'm leading in every poll. Every poll I'm winning. I'm a winner. I'm going to win this thing. I'm going to make America great again. And everyone loves me and they can't bring me down, referring to the media and referring to the other candidates. If he comes out and loses the first one, that turns his campaign upside down in literally 12 hours. And I'll be interested to see how he responds to it because he has basically set the bar so high, I don't even think it's attainable for him.

[09:35:26] COSTELLO: Wow. Well, we'll see what happens. Ben Ferguson, Patti Solis Doyle, thanks to both of you.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo says his message is simple, terrorists should not be able to buy guns. And he's pushing to ban anyone on the U.S. terror watch list from buying guns in New York state. Cuomo calls it sheer madness that a suspected terrorist can buy a firearm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: We have people in the country who are suspected of terrorism and who, right now, can't step on a plane but can buy a gun. I mean that is ludicrous. I'm the New York governor. This is the state of 9/11. These people must be living in the state of denial. How many San Bernardinos, how many Sandy Hooks do you need before you have basic sanity that says, safety still matters?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Cuomo says, quote, "too many senators are in the vice grip of the NRA." And in a "USA Today" op-ed, former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords challenges a Congress she says refuses to act three years after Sandy Hook. This is the anniversary. She says Congress has embraced a shameful status quo and is, quote, in the gun lobby's grip.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the U.S. plan to destroy ISIS. President Obama meeting with top generals this morning to talk strategy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Two mosques in southern California were vandalized over the weekend. Someone spray painted "Jesus is the way" across the front of one of the mosques. A fake grenade was left in the driveway of the other mosque. The FBI and local officials are, of course, investigating. Both incidents now being classified as hate crimes. The two mosques are about an hour west of where the San Bernardino terror attack took place earlier this month.

[09:40:19] In just about an hour, President Obama goes to the Pentagon to talk ISIS. He'll meet with Defense Secretary Ashton Carter and his top generals. Word is they'll talk strategy. And while the meeting sounds important, the White House says not to expect any major changes.

The current strategy is sure to be dissected, though, in tomorrow's Republican debate. As you probably know, Donald Trump is suggesting the United States bomb the hell out of ISIS and ban Muslims from coming into the United States. He defended that position on CNN's -- on Jake Tapper's show over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Jake, we've got to stop the problem. We can talk about it. We can talk about it forever. There's a real problem and it's called radical Islamic terrorism.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN: Are you making it worse is the question?

TRUMP: Wait a minute. And we have -- look, what's worse? Is it worse when they shoot 14 people and kill 14 people and many others laying in the hospital? What about in Paris where they have hundreds of people dead in Paris? Same thing. It's Paris, but same thing. And many more people going to die. They're laying in the hospital practically dead. We've got to stop the problem. There's a real problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton joins me now from Doha, Qatar.

Welcome, colonel.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hey, it's good to be with you, Carol.

COSTELLO: It's nice to have you here. So let's talk about President Obama's meeting at the Pentagon. Do you think that it's just for show because even the White House says not much will come of this.

LEIGHTON: Well, maybe they're trying to dampen expectations. You know, clearly, when the president goes to the Pentagon, that is a big deal for the Pentagon because it shows that the president is not only interested in what's going on, but he probably wants to send a message to the Pentagon workforce, all the military services, all the civilian employees of the DOD. So what he's trying to do is basically say, this is my plan, this is my strategy and, in essence, he's lobbying them for support. But hopefully he's also trying to get information from them, as well. But it is -- it's certainly part theater and part substance, I would say.

COSTELLO: All right. So on to what the Republican candidates might say on the debate stage tomorrow. Donald Trump has said in the past, we should carpet bomb ISIS. Bomb the oil fields and let Russia take care of Syria. Is he right?

LEIGHTON: Well, not really, because ISIS is such an odd target. It is not a nation state, so it doesn't have the standard infrastructure targets that we would go after if we went after a standard country, like let's say a Russia or a China or something like that. So there's the difficulty in the kind of targets that you get from a military perspective.

There's also the fact that ISIS can slip into the background. The fact that we bomb them doesn't necessarily mean that you've decapitated them or that you've really rendered them harmless. And the whole idea of going after the oil fields, that becomes a bit of a problem because a lot of the oil fields are going to be used by whatever comes after ISIS. So you have to be a little bit careful in how you handle that.

COSTELLO: OK. So Senator Ted Cruz, he also believes we should carpet bomb ISIS into oblivion. Carpet bombing means indiscriminate bombing. So from a military perspective, what might carpet bombing ISIS look like?

LEIGHTON: Well, theoretically, it would basically mean that the city of Raqqa, which is the -- ISIS' defacto capital, would be completely leveled to the ground. Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq, which is in ISIS' hands, would also be leveled to the ground. And anything in between, even possibly the city of Ramadi, if the remaining part of it doesn't fall into Iraqi government hands, could also theoretically be completely devastated.

The problem with that kind of strategy is that it would really result in a major anger being lifted in the Middle East. Not only because we're going after them in a very incoherent fashion, in essence, but we're also going after them in a way that would affect tons of civilians. Tens of thousands of civilians would be adversely affected by this, and that could be a significant game changer, but not in our favor. And so from a strategic standpoint --

COSTELLO: But -- but, colonel -- but -- but, colonel, Senator Cruz says, you know, as sad as it is, civilian casualties are a fact of war and civilians have died in wars that America took part in. So why would this be so different? [09:44:50] LEIGHTON: Well, it's different because the times have

changed. Back in World War II when we went after targets like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, we did do carpet bombing. We did do those kinds of things, or at least the equivalent of that.

And so what you saw at that particular point in time, because the targeting process was not as precise as it is now.

[09:45:09] You saw that kind of indiscriminate bombing occurring because that was the only bombing we knew how to do. Now, we have precision-guided munitions. We have a precision targeting process. We go after high value targets.

So in essence what Senator Cruz is advocating would be a violation of the laws of war. And that would be a real problem and could really not only hamper diplomatic efforts but political and military efforts that the United States would want to engage in after ISIS or even during the conflict with ISIS.

COSTELLO: All right, so final question. When you talk about a more muscular plan to fight ISIS, what does that really mean from a military perspective?

LEIGHTON: Well, for a target like ISIS, for an enemy like ISIS, what you're trying to do is you're trying to engage them on multiple fronts. That would involve special operations forces, potentially other ground forces from allied nations or allied groups like the various Kurdish groups that are fighting. It would also involve bombing, but it wouldn't involve the kind of carpet bombing that Senator Cruz would advocate. Because that would then take us into a dimension of warfare that we wouldn't want to go into. And that's the difference.

You could go after ISIS with many different things, many different instruments of national power, but you'd have a real problem if you went with them just with bombing and in the manner that Senator Cruz and others have described.

COSTELLO: All right, Colonel Cedric Leighton, thanks for joining me.

A reminder for you, the president is going to be speaking after his meeting with advisers at the Pentagon and CNN will carry that live. 12:25 Eastern, that's the time we're expecting.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, tensions ramping up between Russia and Turkey. Yet another clash, this time, on the water.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:38] COSTELLO: More shots fired between Russia and Turkey but only warning shots this time. This latest incident though occurred in the Aegean Sea; that's between Greece and Turkey. Moscow says a warship was forced to fire warning shots because a Turkish fishing boat got too close and ignored repeated calls to change course. Just last month, Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet near Syria's border. Jill Dougherty joins me now from Moscow. She's a former CNN Moscow

Bureau Chief and a researcher at the International Center for Defense and Security. So, Jill, what does this latest incident mean?

JILL DOUGHERTY, FMR. CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Well, it means more tension and it means more military tension, which is a little more worrying, even though nothing really ended up happening, nobody was killed. There were warning shots that, as you described, this fishing boat with Turkish flag comes closer, the Russians say, to their destroyer. They radioed, they try to communicate. No response. And so they say they were forced to fire those warning shots. And then eventually that Turkish fishing vessel went away, moved away.

But I think, Carol, it's an indication of what we're dealing with. You know, these things can start small and then they can escalate. And here we are, they're in open waters, and it can become very dangerous. It's a very good indication of how high the tensions are. And don't forget that President Putin, just last week when he was speaking to his top brass, really ordered them to be very tough, to answer any type of challenge to the Russian military that are carrying out operations in Syria. And this ship actually was involved in that operation to, as he put it, "liquidate any threat" to them.

Now this, they did not liquidate the boat, but they did fire as a warning. And then Russia called in defense attache here in Moscow and pretty much read the riot act. So that's where we stand. The Turks are not giving too much information. They say they're looking into it. But there have been comments coming from officials that they believe Russia overreacted to this.

COSTELLO: All right, Jill Dougherty, reporting live from Moscow. Thank you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, in just a few hours, a Baltimore jury could start deciding the fate of a police officer accused in the Freddie Gray case. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:56:47] COSTELLO: Closing arguments now under way in Baltimore for the first of six officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray. The fate of Officer William Porter, seen here entering the courtroom just moments ago, could soon be in the jury's hands. The police force now taking no chances in keeping the city safe.

Jean Casarez is outside the courtroom for us this morning. Good morning, Jean.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Closing arguments, as you said, they have just begun in the courtroom behind me. And the Baltimore Police Department, they are not allowing any leave this week. So any officer that was going to take some time off this week before the holidays has been told you've got to be ready for duty.

The mayor of Baltimore, Stephanie Rawlins-Blake, has made a plea to this community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINS-BLAKE (D), BALTIMORE: Whatever the verdict, we need everyone in our city to respect the judicial process. We need everyone visiting our city to respect Baltimore. The goal was to have a jury of 12 Baltimorians be shown the evidence and to make a decision. That is our American system. And that's what's happening now over in the courthouse. Whether you agree or whether you disagree with the jury's ultimate verdict, our reaction needs to be one of respect in Baltimore's neighborhoods.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And she went on to say Baltimore will not be judged by the unrest that happened in May.

People that have been walking by our live shot, they know what's happening. They say, oh, it's the trial of the police officer. They know exactly what's going on today. And before the closing arguments began, the judge gave jury instructions, a lot of language. Did the defendant commit gross, criminal negligence? Did he cause the death of Freddie Gray? Would a reasonable police officer in the same position act differently?

So, the question is -- is this negligence to not have Freddie Gray put in a seat belt and to not call a medic when he requested one? Or is it gross and criminal negligence and, Carol, that a reasonable police officer in the same situation would have realized that Freddie Gray need help, that there was something very wrong, and that his life could have been saved?

COSTELLO: All right, Jean Casarez, reporting live from Baltimore this morning.

Checking some other top stories for you at 58 minutes past. Swedish investigators will finally get to question WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange on rape allegations from five years ago. They reached a deal with Ecuador. Assange been living in the Ecuadorian embassy in London for three years. He's avoiding extradition by doing that.

An Ole Miss football player recovering in the hospital after breaking through a window and falling 15 feet at an Atlanta hotel. He was taken to the hospital with minor injuries. CNN affiliate WSB says Robert Nkemdiche was expected to be a top five draft pick. Police found a small amount of marijuana in the hotel room.

Taylor Swift announcing an exclusive streaming deal with Apple. On December 12, they'll release the "1989 World Tour Live" with concert footage from her latest tour that just wrapped up. The deal comes just six months after Swift clashed with Apple over music streaming royalties.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

(MUSIC) [10:00:05] COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you for joining me.